Who was/is "The Greatest American"? Voting starts June 5

[CatWoman]

http://tv.channel.aol.com/greatestamerican

Who are you going to vote for?

[enigmatic]

1. I loved "The Greatest Canadian" on CBC..

And I'll watch this, too..

[ghostsofgiants]

5. Yeah, that was great

Especially the winner. I was quite proud of my country that day, haha.

[enigmatic]

25. Tommy Douglas!

Since I'm an expat fron the US I didn't know much aboiut him; after the show I got a couple of bios from the library and came out w/ a huge admiration of him. Everybody should know who he was and what he did for the people of Canada..

http://www.weyburnreview.com/tommydouglas/welcome.html

[ghostsofgiants]

32. Yep

However I was a little disturbed by how well Don Cherry did in the voting.

[lenidog]

2. What do you think the odds are on Michael Jackson winning?

;-)

[matcom]

3. Marky Mark

[CatWoman]

7. nah -- I'm voting for his Funky Bunch

[matcom]

9. you are what is wrong with America!

what with Britney preggars and all you side with the enemy!

[CatWoman]

12. YOU HATE ME FOR MY FREEDOMS!!!!

Freedom to choose "The Funky Bunch"!!

[matcom]

24. i DO hate you for your freedoms!!

i'm off to murder some embryos and stuff to retaliate

[MnFats]

4. Pete Seeger. A personal hero.

and a national treasure.

It's just too bad that they Repubs at the DeLay "tribute" had to defile one of his best songs, "If I had a Hammer."

[terrya]

6. I would vote for Rosa Parks.

Really, her simple defiance against racism helped launch the civil rights movement.

BTW: the Bushes are well represented in the nominees. :puke:

[CatWoman]

8. yep -= Poppy, Chimpy and Ma Barker, er, Bush

:puke:

[Orsino]

54. And a good object lesson this week...

...that sometimes people do the right thing for reasons that are not completely altruistic, and they have to break the law to do it.

Miss Rosa stuck to her guns, and did it openly. Mr. Felt thought he had to hide.

[Zuni]

10. Lets DU it so Michael jackson wins!!!

that would be funny as hell :o

[CatWoman]

14. Good Idea!!!

:rofl:

[GirlinContempt]

11. Oooooook

Ford?! Disney?

[Zuni]

19. oooh...they are both good and evil

Ford published huge amounts of anti-semetic propaganda, enough that he earned Hitler's admiration, but he revolutionized the auto industry and made sure his workers were among the best paid in any industry
Walt Disney was pyscho and creepy, but the cartoons he created are icons the world over.

[GirlinContempt]

23. Uhm, he didn't just publish propaganda

He supplied the Germans with 1/3 of their military vehicles, and used concentration camp labour in his Axis-territory factories. Among other things.

[Zuni]

28. not true

Show me proof of this. Any fords the Germans had were pre-1940


I have read hundreds of books about WWII and the only countries that used Fords were allied. From 1939, huge restrictions were placed on imports to Germany. By 1940, there was almost no trade with Germany whatsoever, and any trade was not of military hardware (that went to the allies)--Grand Admiral Karl Reder wanted to declare war on the US in 1940 because all of our war related trade was with the UK, lend lease, But Hitler was still looking to see if britain would throw in the towel---and was beginning to plan on invading the USSR in 1941.

And there were no Axis territory Ford factories either. I have no idea where you read it but it is bullshit.

[GirlinContempt]

34. Ford

owned factories in Germany, that were never expropriated by the German state. Ford Motor Company (USA) owned from 55 to 90% of the shares of its subsidiary Ford Werke A.G. during 1933 to 1945. The factory was in Cologne, Germany.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

http://www.1939club.com/1939%20Articles-1.htm

http://www.stockmaven.com/logsdon99_F.htm

I suppose the Elsa Iwanowa case means nothing?

[Zuni]

41. Elsa Isanowa was deported from the same town my grandmother was

deported by the Nazis from. My grandmother was deported from Rostov on Don in 1943 to work in a Berlin factory. The is interesting to me there---I had never heard of her until now. My grandfather, a Soviet POW from Moscow, worked as a forced laborer in a Siemens factory in Berlin. (they are still a big German company)

Still, the paper was very murky about how much was transacted after 1940, and how much was done after 1942. It seems the evidence is still not fully evaluated, but some people at Ford have some 'splainin to do, at least about making money. Even if they shut down the factories, the Germans would have just opened them up and used them anyway, but it is highly unethical to profit off this stuff.

Those factories were built in the 20s and 30s----The Nazis would have taken them over (they pretty much took over all industry during the war in reality, even stuff that was under "private management" and the government basically managed everything after 1943, when total war went into effect) regardless. The fact that parts were made in a factory ford built in 1929 is not really an admission of guilt---it would have happened no matter what. The raw materials did not come from the US after 1940. Parts did not come from the US. Everything would have been made in Germany, from other sources.

The fact is, it looks like they profited off a situation they didn't control at worst.

After pearl Harbor, it would have been illegal for Ford to actually run the businesses, so if he did, it was in fact illegal. And I really doubt Ford HQ in Dearborn had much say in what was done with their plants in Germany.



That businesses did business with the Nazis is nothing new. Sweden provided Nazi Germany with most of it's iron ore. Rumania, with most of the oil. The Soviets not only signed the treaty that allowed Germany to start the war, but were Nazi germany's #1 supplier of raw materials until 4:45 am on June 22, 1941.

[GirlinContempt]

46. There are some irrefutable points

One - the plant was not taken over

Two - the majority of the shares were owned by the parent company, Ford USA

Three - they used slave labour

Just cause the Germans would have done it if Ford pulled out doesn't make it okay. Just cause other companies did as much, or more, doesn't make it okay. American Ford provided Germany with piles of rubber. Edsel Ford and Robert Sorenson, high-ranking officials of Ford Motor Company, served as directors of Ford Werke A.G. throughout the Nazi Third Reich.

[Zuni]

49. well

1. The Plant was not taken over formally. But the german government took over all war related production by 1943, most far earlier.

2. the shares didn't matter. How they ran the business from dearborn is totally not clear. That they made dirty money i am not doubting, not am I doubting that henry Ford was a nazi sympathizer and that he did all kinds of things to Hitler's benefit in the 1930s is NOT in doubt. What I am doubting is that from 1940, and especially 1942, there would have no way for it to actually be run by Ford from America. Certainly no spare parts or raw materials were sent from the US. And by 1943, everything was government run in Germany, so the point becomes moot after that.

3. Most german war industry used slave labor. I am not doubting that. Both of my mother's parent's were among the slaves.

I did not doubt that henry Ford is an asshole and a nazi. I am just disputing just how much control Ford could have had post-1940. It doesn't make much sense on how this could be possible.

[Zuni]

42. the third link is stuff I knew

this is from the third link---the only thing I had never read is that Ford *might* have had some say in running his plants. I just assumed that all trade with Germany of war material was stopped because it was illegal (not that financial transactions didn't occur, but wiring money and shipping a boat full of trucks is a different story altogether)

"is unclear how much contact the home office in Dearborn had with its German enterprise after December of 1941. The company later claimed that connections had been completely severed during the war years. This excuse has been disputed, with some arguing that American Ford received dividends from its German plants worth approximately $60,000 from 1940-1943.291 Nothing has been conclusively proven to date. However; according to American Intelligence reports, vehicles manufactured at German Ford and G.M. plants made up "the backbone of the German transportation system." After the war; Ford demanded reparations from the U.S. Government for wartime damages resulting from allied bombings on its German plants. It was awarded almost $1 million, mainly due to damage inflicted on the military truck complex in Cologne.292 "

The fact that trucks made at plants ford built cannot be blamed entirely on Henry Ford. But if he did profit off of them or provided assistance against the law, you were right. But what you should have said is that the Germans used Ford Plants to build war vehicles and Ford might have profitted. That would be more accurate.

[GirlinContempt]

45. Saying that is NOT more accurate

The parent company owned a vast majority of the shares, and thus had a controlling interest in the German Ford company. The Germans NEVER TOOK OVER FORD, so they cannot be blamed for Fords actions. I suggest you read the Schneider report. It can be blamed on Ford. Ford could have backed out of their German operations and let the Germans take over, instead of holding controlling interest and profiting off of murder and slave labour. Ford pulled a dirtier, more harmful Coca Cola.

[Zuni]

47. no

there is no way Ford could have run the company from Dearborn Michigan, stocks or not. The Germans may have never formally took over Ford, but in 1943 the German government assumed control of *ALL* war related matters, wether Ford owned a controlling interest or not. All german or foreign companies making things essential to the war effort were in essence nationalized in all but name. In reality, almost all of them had already been taken over long before that, especially if they were as essential as this Ford Plant might have been. So ownership in name only does not translate to ownership in reality.

How Ford would have controlled the company or gotten the money is not clear to me because it was ILLEGAL for any American to trade with Germany in any capacity at all after Dec. 11, 1941, and for more than a year before that trade was highly restricted.

The fact that they had shares means on paper they had control. That might be true, and it seems to be. But I guarantee that Ford Motors HQ in Dearborn Michigan was not running the plant. Henry Ford might have been a Nazi sympathizer but there is no way that during the war, not after 1945, he could have profited or run the plant unless he had an elaborate spy system.

[gizmo1979]

13. why me of course!

[fishnfla]

15. If he wasnt a slave owner, I'd say Thomas Jefferson

The last renaissance man.

Freepers are gonna freep the freepin' freep out this freepin' poll and the chimp will win.

[proud patriot]

16. Very difficult

but I'm going to mull ,
Benjiman Franklin , Helen
Keller , Harriet Tubbman
and MLK

[Zuni]

17. Tom Cruise is in line with Ellen Degeneres

wonder if that has a symbolic meaning? Are the media trying to distract us from Bush with the whole specualtion thing about Tom Cruise's sexuality?

[mark414]

18. MLK

"a man who tried to show white people the meaning of civilization"

[phaseolus]

20. why the f&*k is Tom Cruise on the list?

He's a rich actor and a cult member. What else has he ever done???!?

Or Brett Favre? He can throw a football, so what? Or any of the other sports or entertainment figures??? They're just famous, that doesn't make them "great". :mad:

[Zuni]

26. seriously

some of these people have no long standing value at all...didn't even revolutionize their fields---if a great actor was to be on there fine, but Tom Cruise? for what, Cocktail? Days of Thunder? On there with Thomas jefferson, Abe Lincoln, Einstein? :wtf:

[Justitia]

21. Ben Franklin, naturally

My hero. Did you know he never patented a single one of his multitudes of inventions? It went against his principles of public service and the greater good of mankind.

Founded the first fire department.
Founded the first public lending library.
Founded the US Mint.(Franklin Mint)
Invented a million things we use every day (including the medical catheter, bifocals, lightning rods, Franklin Stove, on and on.)

Chief editor and contributing author to both the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

Secured the financing that enabled our American Revolution.
We NEVER would have become a country w/out Ben, his esteemed reputation and political skill was the keystone of our winning independence.

So beloved...the "Franklin" in FDR's name was an homage to Benjamin Franklin.

And he never went to school past the age of 10.

Thanks Ben!

[fishnfla]

27. He was also an insatiable womaniser and a nudist

but since I cant in good conscience vote for TJ, it has to be Ben.

[Justitia]

29. He was a lady-charmer - in his 80s! They loved him, all across

the world, men and women alike, which is why his diplomacy on our behalf was so successful.

BTW, the "womanizing" part is really mostly "tea & sympathy". While he did have some significant relationships in his life, his flirtatious ways were mostly platonic and occurred very late in life.
He did have a huge respect and appreciation for women and consulted the many female friends he had around the world on many serious matters. He had several decades long correspondences at the time of his death.

Now, the "nudist" thing is new to me!

[fishnfla]

33. He believed "nude-air bathing" to be healthy

he'd sit in a room naked an hour a day with the windows open. A closet nudist perhaps?
And yes, you're right, a flirt

and a feminist! Vote for Ben!

[Justitia]

36. ha - what a visual! LOL -eom

[alarimer]

44. I'd vote for him

I certainly hope it isn't the current occupant of the White House or any actor. It HAS to be someone like FDR, Franklin, Lincoln, Washington, etc. No entertainer at all- I am so afraid they will pick Reagan.

[Zuni]

22. Albert Einstein would get my vote

but I really consider him a German, as it was only the last 20 yrs of his life he lived in the US. All his most important work was done when he was a German citizen

[ghostsofgiants]

30. Rush Limbaugh?! What the fuck?

[Obviousman]

35. wow, i had those exact thoughts

[ghostsofgiants]

37. I should hope any sane person would react the same way

[phaseolus]

39. yeah.

IMO Michael Moore, as much as I enjoy his work, really doesn't belong on the list, either. I'm sure it was someone's idea for a laugh to put them both on the same list, and I'm sure pigboy will attach waaaaay too much importance if his votes beat Moore's.

[ghostsofgiants]

40. Yeah, there's a lot of people who don't belong

But at least I can think of a few good things Moore has done for people...what has Rush done?

[UrbScotty]

31. 4 Bushes, Nixon, and Limbaugh - but no Thurgood Marshall? (nt)

[Wickerman]

38. Cosby, Cruise, Rush, Dr Phil, Bret Favre

but no Bob Dylan? No Kurt Vonnegut? Martha Stewart but no Steinbeck? No Hemingway? I don't see any of those as the greatest Americans, but come on, Tom Hanks? Mel Gibson? (is he even a US citizen?) Donald freakin' Trump?

[Lannes]

43. Lincoln

[smartvoter]

48. Franklin. nt

[Enraged_Ape]

50. David Cassidy

Come on, it's a no-brainer.

[baldguy]

51. I've noticed in their ads

They don't mention many conseratives...

[Reverend_Smitty]

52. this is one of the dumbest lists ever!

any show that values Laura Bush, Tom Cruise and Rush more than Woodie Guthrie, Bob Dylan, and Walt Whitman...just to name a few isn't worth my time.

Even the people on the list that I do like, such as Barack Obama (who I love...does not deserve to be on a greatest American list...yet...)

[CatWoman]

53. Notice that Matt Lauer is the emcee for this show

:puke:

[tjwmason]

55. I'm guessing it's by popular vote

Therefore it's bound to be heavily weighted in favour of recent folk, most people who cast votes will not sit down and contemplate every figure to have done anything since 1776, but rather will potter to the web-site and cast on the basis of what's uppermost in his/her mind.

Exactly the same happened with the British version, but the final list cuts out most of the crap, the top 10 all had a very good claim to be there, and the final winner (Sir Winston Churchill) was by any estimation well justified.

[CatWoman]

56. so, how the hell did Rush Limbaugh get on that list?

what they hell has he done in order to be considered a "great American"?

Commit a felony, and cry foul when he's investigated?