Talking to a friend who's a psychiatrist today, she said that

[valis]

if she were Van Gogh's therapist she'd give him whatever meds it takes to make him feel better, regardless of whether his creativity would suffer. I suppose I agree, but it reminded me how much great stuff comes out of pain. Perhaps if there was no pain there would be fewer great things. I'm ambivalent. Suffering can lead to deep insights about oneself and about life. But sometimes it leads to disruption and disaster. Life is complicated...

[Deja Q]

1. Lots of great stuff comes from pain...

Envy
Jealously
Hatred
Greed
Bullying
Violence
War
Death
Genocide

[patricia92243]

3. I say "Amen" to that. n/t

[supernova]

2. Wasn't Van Gogh epileptic?

That is a physical condition, not a mental one, though it does cause a fair amount of emotional distress.

I guess it would all depend on what VG would have to say about the matter. Though studying him at one time, I got the impression he prized his artistic sensibilities above all. Being able to paint was the thing that kept him going.

[valis]

7. Actually I'd have to look it up. I don't remember...

[blue neen]

12. Yes, he was an epileptic.

It is a physical condition, but it can have quite an effect on your emotional and mental state.

There actually are types of seizures where you can hallucinate. Other seizures can be a sensory type of experience, i.e. seeing things in more detail than you normally would, smelling things that are not in the room, weird taste sensations.

The medications that they use to control epilepsy today probably would have taken away the special way he projected what he saw onto his paintings. Just my humble opinion...

[rockedthevoteinMA]

31. He was bipolar. Manic depressive. Whatever you want to call it. n/t

[Wickerman]

4. Depends on what the "artist" wants

If s/he wants to be happy and pills will do so, then the ethics of not giving up the drugs for the sake of some art is criminal. To force drugs on someone can also be criminal, but that's a dicey subject and pretty case by case.

[Jamastiene]

16. I agree with giving the person the option.

I'd hate to see art suffer because of someone being depressed in a very depressing world. I understand the concept of chemical imbalances in the brain, but until they can explain to me why being unhappy in a crappy world is such a crime, I'll continue to think that the meds are to shut up dissention and possibly keep people from functioning in a way that could possibly better mankind. In other words, if the person isn't dangerous to anyone, they should be given the option. I think someone should have stopped him from cutting his ear off though. That was kind of extreme.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

5. That kind of parallels some religious arguements

Particularly regarding suffering and the end of life; i.e,suffering is a path to god or maybe a higher state of being. Wow. That's some hard stuff to think about. Regardless, I'd hate someone else far removed from me personally making this decision. That's between the sufferer and the health care provider.

[skygazer]

6. It is complicated

I travelled to the brink of suicide with depression and bipolar illness but the meds I took to control it did seem to almost sedate me and turn me into a sort of zombie. I really did feel that I was losing an essential part of who I am.

What is sanity? Who is the judge of who is sane and who is not? How do we know that the judges are sane themselves?

I do feel that the meds helped to save my life and if I ever reached those depths again, I would use them again. I don't use them now, though. I'm happy and stable and not suicidal and my creative juices flow nicely. And yes, much of my creativity stems from the pain I have within me.

I guess what I'm saying is there has to be a balance - creativity is useless if the person is so far gone that they are a danger to themself or others. I would never knock someone for using meds nor do I condemn those who refuse to.

Yeah. Complicated.

[Ladyhawk]

15. Very. If you are in too much pain, you have NO creativity. n/t

[MrScorpio]

8. I guess explains why post rehabs albums are all crap

It's a fact

[valis]

9. Interesting... Are you serious? Any examples?...

Could it also be because they are a little "rusty"?... If true, it's an interesting observation...

[supernova]

11. Heh. Well, there you go

:D

[bridgit]

10. reminds me an interview i seen with...

david lynch, known as highly over-the-top-manic in his demeanor; when asked as to whether it had ever been suggested he undergo therapy he quired @ the time,

"will it alter the way in which i create?" when the answer came back a learned, "yes"...

he replied simply, "no thanks."

stand back...imo genius is tricky sometimes ~

[NMMNG]

13. Many of the famous artists had mental illnesses

Jim Morrison, Sylvia Plath, Ernest Hemingway, Janis Joplin, etc....

[Ladyhawk]

14. My creativity has suffered BECAUSE of pain.

When the pain was more manageable, I was more creative. I've come across many artists and musicians who have experienced pain as counterproductive once it reaches a certain point. Most of my best drawings, paintings, sculptures, etc. were done years ago when I could function better. At this point, getting rid of the pain would help my creativity.

[Swamp Rat]

20. me too

:hug:

[evlbstrd]

17. This cuts so close to home.

Where to draw the line between letting your psyche drive your passion, and when to stop it with drugs before your psyche hurts you.

[NMMNG]

18. True that

I'm more creative when depressed or hypomanic--but I'm also more self-destructive.

Stability is far healthier and safer.

[In_The_Wind]

19. I believe the challenges in life can help an individual to grow. However..

no one should suffer needlessly, emotional pain can become overwhelming sometimes leading to an impaired ability to make proper choices.

[Mizmoon]

21. My problem is with forcing people to take them

Some people in our society seem to think that they have the right to force drugs down people's throats. It makes me sick.

[hfojvt]

24. I also do not like it when they think all problems can be solved

chemically.

[dbt]

22. The Sad Case Of Gordon Lightfoot.

How many hits has he had since his depression was cured? On the other hand, I rejoice for him, escaping THAT hell!

[Lindsey]

23. I wrote a paper on Bipolar Disorder and creativity (for one of my college

classes). It was quite fascinating. The graph of the creative works while the individual was in a manic state was high and while in a depressive state almost non-existant. Picasso stated: "Art is the child of sadness and pain." Interesting.

[valis]

27. Picasso was right. Extreme pain can disable you. But sadness

and mild pain can drive you to create things. It could simply be a way to get your mind focused on something else, away from the pain. Or a way to deal with the pain... It works...

[Squeech]

25. Except

I do think the art and the pain come from the same place: perceiving the world in a non-standard way and wanting to communicate that perception. But I think in some cases the pain comes from rejection from people who don't share that different perception and resent having it pointed out to them.

But I can't think of a clear example. Dali was rejected by his father, but it's not clear that Dali's artistic attributes were the problem, except insofar as they gave him an excuse to be an arrogant loudmouth. (And then of course he contrived to act out the same psychodrama again with Andre Breton standing in loco parentis.)

Would Van Gogh have been content if he'd had enough to eat every day and a nice girlfriend? Would he still have painted? Would Aaron Copland have composed "Appalachian Spring" if he were straight? Were all of Eugene O'Neill's early plays just practice for "Long Day's Journey Into Night," the play he was really driven to write? These are the sorts of questions you have to answer to shed real light on the topic.

[Arianrhod]

26. Drugs should be used only by those who don't need them.

Those whose psyches are overflowing with creativity should be left free to produce, regardless of their ability to "fit in" with "social norms". In fact, let's just fuck social norms altogether. Van Gogh and Poe and Coleridge are considered great artists precisely because their outlook was so "out there" that no one could comprehend them. "I've drunk the milk of paradise!"

Of course, Coleridge was high on cocaine when he wrote "Kubla Khan", and Poe was dying of alcohol poisoning during "The Raven".

Prescribing drugs to "relieve" the lifeforce of its alternative interpretation of reality, forcing it to conform with the "established" viewpoint, is the act of a neoconservative pussy.

[progmom]

28. I had a friend, a jazz singer, who stopped taking her meds because she

...felt stifled creatively and didn't feel like herself.

She died 4 years ago last month when she threw herself out of her apartment window. :cry:

[valis]

29. I'm sorry to hear that, progmom...

I wish there were better ways to treat depression...

[Wapsie B]

30. OMG.

Depression can be such a horrible thing. I struggle with it too. I am so sorry for you and her family. Suicide really hits hard those left behind to wonder why.

[progmom]

32. what kills me is that i was in NY that morning

I was there on business just for a night, and had a couple of hours to kill before my flight the next morning. I had her number, thought about calling her, and instead decided to cherish the solitude and order room service breakfast. I have always wondered if it would have made any difference if I had called her instead.... :(

[valis]

33. I know how you feel... If you go down that path you become paralyzed,

though... For any action, there is something else you don't do that could make a difference... You did not know...

[Wapsie B]

34. Don't blame yourself.

It's a natural thing to do when something like that happens. The only way for me to go on is to realize that for a short time at least this person touched my life and in a positive way while they were here. I'm a better person for having known them.