A question for pitbull owners

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Why that breed?

You could have gotten a chihuahua or a German shepherd or a cocker spaniel or a Saint Bernard or a poodle or a huskie or a dachsund or a boxer.

But no. You got a pitbull.

Why? I'm curious. I'm sure different people will offer different reasons; I want to read them all.

[Ron Green]

1. Well, if no pit bull owners will come forward, I'll tell you why I have a

Border Collie ... because he's the greatest dog in the world! And he just loves to run! And play with other dogs! And play with me! And he jumps 6 feet in the air to catch a Frisbee!

That is all.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. Thanks. I wonder why this thread was otherwise sinking.

No, wait -- I don't.

[driver8]

31. I have a Border Collie -- the only BC in the world who WILL NOT

chase a ball or a frisbee! We got our border collie, Cody, from a rescue. I tried to get him to fetch a ball and he looked at me like I was absolutely crazy.

He will "herd" anything that moves, however...

These dogs are so full of energy and are such incredible athletes. Cody is 11 1/2 and has just started to slow down...he has arthritis now and can't run like he used to.

[Modem Butterfly]

3. Strictly speaking, dogs don't have race

I don't have Pits, but the ones I've met have been incredibly sweet, well-natured, intelligent and playful dogs. I have Chows and Shar-Peis, all rescues, and both much maligned breeds, and I take the hysteria surrounding supposedly dangerous breeds personally.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. Terminology corrected. (nt)

[Langis]

5. My Fiancée was the one who got ours

This was before I knew her. She decided on a Pit Bull because she didn’t buy that they were all aggressive and mean, she thought it had to be ass hole owners who bring it out in their dogs. So she got our Killlian. He is the sweetest dog ever, and great with kids.

[Dervill Crow]

6. Because my daughter bred her girl and it was time for us

to get another dog. I did a LOT of reading on the breed, though, before committing to a pit bull. Daizie is a lover, as are her mom and dad. There is nothing sweeter than a pit bull smiling. They are very goofy, affectionate dogs, as long as they are lovingly and respectfully trained to know their place in the pack.

[redacted]

12. Don't Breed, Don't Buy -- Adopt.

And especially don't breed -- there are enough unwanted dogs in this world without another litter.

[Dervill Crow]

26. Amen to that.

Daizie is actually our first dog that wasn't adopted from the Humane Society, although my daughter did get her momma from a breeder. I love mutts, myself. In fact, Daizie is a bit of a mutt, her mom's an American Staffordshire and her dad's English.

[pscot]

7. I got mine because I thought they were cool looking dogs

This was before they developed their national rep. I had no idea what I was getting into. I've owned a few dogs, but that bull dog was the best dog I've ever known. He was remarkably intelligent, with a great personality and a large and expressive vocabulary. He was wonderful with my kids, who adored him. He was incredibly athletic, but he couldn't swim; he was too muscular to float. That's not to say there weren't issues. I trained him and he learned to obey. I could stop him on a dime with a word and that is the key to owning one of these dogs. They must be kept under control. While I have great respect for the breed and for terriers generally, they are not for everyone. The American Staffordshires in particular need to be chosen with care and thoroughly trained. With proper handling they can be great dogs. In the hands of an idiot they can be dangerous

[ismnotwasm]

8. My parents had a friend who couldn't care for his

I don't know the whole story. I had two dogs at the time, and didn't need a third, but he was so cute, and I owed my Dad a favor. Non of the bad pitbull charecteristics, although he was about a year and a half, and we thought it possible someone had tried to fight him, because of some scars. He runs around the yard with a stick or a ball in his mouth. All he wants to do is play "fetch" until he's exhausted. Now I also have a chow mix, now she's my scary one. Snappy at people. I also have a big, dumb pure breed German Shepard. The last two are getting pretty old.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

9. Sam was a creation of 2 dogs with incredible temperaments.

Intentionally. His mom was a gorgeous American Staffordshire Terrier Named "Baby Monster". She was kind and patient and sweet and loving. His dad was half American Pitt Bull Terrier and half Chow Chow. His name was Spade. He was equally kind and patient and sweet and loving... so they made more kind and patient and sweet and loving puppies.

His mom belonged to a close friend. She had the litter and was then neutered. The 2 dogs were so incredible that they wanted to share these traits in the line... so we were lucky enough to share. His big brother was a cat... and best friend a Maltese.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3393072&mesg_id=3393072



There it is....

[kittenpants]

18. that's really cute! n/t

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

19. Thanks!! He ruled!

:)

[Pharlo]

10. Well, I have mutts because

I'm a sucker for a mutt...

And it doesn't really matter what the breeds involved are - although I do prefer them to grow into the 100+ pound range. (Border Collie is the only breed preference I am willing to compromise the size issue for - and that is due to their intelligence. It has been my experience that regardless of age, a Border Collie mix puppy is half trained when you get it home.)

It's even possible that at one point or another one of my animals had pit bull blood in them. I don't know.

The selection process is:

1) The youngest dog is about three years old. Time to get another puppy.

2) Watch for adds in the paper - large breed mixes; six to eight weeks, preferably black. (The age is a critical factor for two reasons. First, the dogs at home will accept a puppy - they may not be ecstatic, but they will accept it. They are not so accepting of a strange adult dog. And, secondly, because if I am getting a dog that may eventually reach the 100+ lb range, I want to socialize it myself.)

3) Go look at the puppies. THIS is my downfall. I'm bringing one home. Once I see them, I am not leaving there without one in my arms. At this point mix is irrelevant. It's a puppy. (God hasn't created one I can resist - I'm weak, I know.)

(All dogs living here are neutered or spayed by six months - I want NO puppies born here. I'd never be able to get rid of one.)

And, that is why I may have had, or may - in the future - have a dog with pit bull in it.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

11. I have been personally attacked by a pit and a Rot.

Here are my thoughts. 1st, I am totally a dog lover. I have owned ( actually, that's not right, I have been allowed to co-exist with, been owned by) a number off great dogs. The love of my life was and Old English sheepdog named Charlie Sunshine Goodfellow. (Yes, I'm an old Hippie) When Charlie was Six months old, I got laid off and had nothing better to do than train him. Man did that training pay off. Please realize that an Old English is a BIG dog. They're real cute when they are little balls of fur but when grown, they can put their paws on your shoulders and look you in the face. Spending a few months training Charlie was one of the best things I could have done. As an adult, like a previous poster said, I could stop him on a dime with a single word. Sit, stay, heel, etc. were sources of joy for him.

I don't think most people really understand how important training is and they certainly don't take the time to do it or even find out how to do it correctly.

If you are going to welcome a big, potentially dangerous dog into your world, YOU HAVE TO TRAIN IT!!!!!!

I don't think most dogs are inherently vicious but I think people don't realize that they are instinctive and will react with instinct unless trained otherwise. I also don't think most people understand the commitment involved in truly training a dog. It is not a casual commitment between martini's, it is a real, and worthwhile job.

That said, you never hear of the kid killed by the vicious Shitezhu.

[Pithlet]

13. Excellent post

I do belive that the owners who are not aware of the potential danger are some of the most dangerous pet owners. I so often hear about how sweet and harmless someone's large breed is. It makes me wonder how cautious they are if they truly feel their dog isn't a danger? I'm sure that more than one rott or pit was considered a sweetie pie, before they ripped someone's throat out.

[Pharlo]

15. I agree with you,

I think a lot of people don't put enough thought into how much work is involved with the ownership of an animal period. The training, the furniture replacement (I have indoor puppies/dogs), the excercise (especially if people live in town), clean up of accidents, grooming (esp. long hair dogs).

Then, of course, there's the ubiquitous skunk chase/spray (see above about indoors dog) challenge.

Many people who do not have a background with dogs make the mistake of 'getting a cute little puppy for the kids' and don't realize that it grows up and requires a lot of work along the way....

That's why I space puppy acquisitions about 3 years apart - it takes almost three years to get a dog past the 'rambunctious puppy' stage into the 'serious guard dog' phase.

And then, you realize the only thing they're willing to guard is the dog food. Someone could come in the house and steal you blind, and as long as they didn't get too close to the dog food, the 400 to 500 pounds (4 to 5 dogs at any given time) of 'vicious' dog you're going broke trying to support wouldn't budge (unless, of course, the burglar wanted to play.)

On the other hand, I spend so much on the support of these animals, I don't have much of anything any self-respecting burglar would want - other than the dog food.

[redacted]

14. Any dog can be dangerous. Some are bred to be more so.

So why if you're an conscientious or inexperienced owner would you get a dog that for generations has been bred to be aggressive toward anyone but immediate family. (With a really big jaw and lots of muscle at that.)

When I got my herding-dog mix I expected that he would be inclined to herding-type behavior. Why are many pit owners in denial that their dog might have aggressive type behaviors.

No one is surprised when a border collie circles, but we all get defensive when a pit bites someone.

[Balbus]

17. Because a Pit is bred to be non-aggressive to humans.

If it does bite or attack a human it did so because it was trained by another human to do so.

[Pithlet]

20. Dogs do not need to be trained to bite people

That is exactly the kind of misinformation that gives people a false sense of security. Any dog has the potential to bite. And an owner that isn't aware of this, and doesn't act on it, is a dangerous, irresponsible owner. Regardless of breed.

And, to address the point the OP brings up, it is a fact that behavioral traits are bred into specific breeds(a good argument for mutts, IMO). And a dog doesn't always require training for that specific trait to come out. My Sheltie, for example, loved to attempt to herd the neighborhood kids by nipping their heals. He was not trained to do this. People who acquire pit bulls need to know that they were indeed bread specifically to fight, and that it is a possibility that their dog may exhibit any of those traits at any time without warning. They do not have to be trained in order for this to happen. Owners of pit bulls who think they're dog is just a sweetie and is incapable of harming a fly are are misinformed. All of the owners who are constantly defending their dog and insist they would never hurt anyone are dangerous. It is those people who reinforce the idea that banning may not be such a bad idea, for me.

[Balbus]

22. Unfortunately, you're suffering from misinformation yourself.

Certain traits are bred into breeds and one of the traits bred into Pit Bulls is non-aggressiveness to humans. For a Pit Bull to attack a human, it most absolutely had to be trained or taught to do that.

[Pithlet]

23. Sorry. I'm not buying that.

There are too many stories of the family dog going off and killing a member of the family, or even a stranger, for me to buy that. I don't think that all of these people trained their dogs to kill people. I think a dog is completely capable of killing a person even if they aren't bred to do it. I think all dogs are capable of it. The larger, stronger ones are more likely to do serious or even lethal harm, that's all. But, even a small breed can do damage. Add strenth and size, and you add even more danger.

When my housecat attacks me, I get a scratch. Because they're tiny. If he were the size of a moutnain lion, he may very well kill me with one swipe of the paw. And it isn't because he was trained to. That's why I don't own large cats.

Animals aren't like human beings. They don't reason like we do. I doubt that a large dog intends to kill. But, their doggy nature comes out, and sometimes the results are unfortunate, particularly if they're big enough and strong enough to do damage. I do think that you're in denial when you insist that dogs are entirely safe and never go off without provocation unless they were trained to do so. Millions upon millions of dog bites say otherwise. Your arguments are only reinforcing my fears. Too many dog owners are clueless about the dangers.

[Balbus]

24. I'm not trying to sell it...

Just stating facts about the breed. If you're willing to be open-minded here's a couple of links to get you started.

http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html
http://www.pitbullsoforegon.com/faqs.html#3
http://www.austinlostpets.com/kidskorner/2October/pitbull.htm

[Pithlet]

25. I'm not anti-Pit Bull

I'm sure that there are a lot of fine qualities in the breed. I'm not narrowing my criticism to the breed, specifically. I'm saying that Pit Bulls aren't immune from the problems that any other breed, or even mutt, can exhibit. And because they are physically strong, the proclivity to bite inherent in ANY dog can be especially dangerous. Which is why their owners have a responsibility to make sure their dogs don't get loose, that they are kept on a lead when out in public, or are left unattended with any child. To say that any one particular dog, or even breed of dog, will never bite unless they are trained, is simply wrong. I don't care how many breed supporters say otherwise.

[Pharlo]

27. I have dealt with and trained puppies who

were going to be large dogs all my life. I do not recall ever having fewer than three dogs at any given time, nor were any of those animals less than 50 pounds. Among them have been pure breeds including an English Bulldog, German Shepherds, and Doberman Pinschers, as well as an assortment of mutts, and one wolf/husky hybrid. I have never had been bitten by a dog (mine or anyone elses), nor have any of my dogs ever bitten anyone.

When dealing with larger dogs, it isn't merely a matter of "training a dog to bite", it's also a matter of teaching them to not bite - to not be aggressive towards people. For myself, I find a crucial part of this is to get the puppies at a very young age (six to eight weeks) and socialize them (not just train them, but socialize them - something which is done by four months) myself.

Part of their training is placing my hand in their dish while they're eating. Not just taking the dish away, but placing my hand in the dish - sometimes, in their mouth - and they cannot bite me. I'll tug fur around their face - not hard - playfully - but they CANNOT bite. When you described your sheltie as trying to herd the neighborhood children, as a large dog owner, that is something my dogs were trained they could not do by four months.

I have never had a small or miniature breed, but I think this may be where some of the discrepancies may be occurring in some of the discussions about training. I don't think there is a disagreement between the two dog loving groups discussing this issue as much as there is a misunderstanding about what the term 'training' implies. With a smaller dog, nipping or biting may be a nuisiance which a dog should be trained not to do, but with a larger dog where a fatality may be the result, it is mandatory to TRAIN a dog NOT to do these things.

Aggression which may be viewed as acceptable in a smaller animal must be TRAINED out of a larger animal. I know that when I take my puppies to the vet for their series of shots I am asked every visit "How is the house training going?" and "Are you seeing any signs of aggression?" They are also very quick to give directions to all dog training sessions available in the local area. And I've been going to the same vet for 20 plus years and they are aware of my history with dogs. Yet, they are concerned about this issue because of the amount of dogs (pups really) under 18 months who are sent to shelters because they aren't 'properly' house trained or are too aggressive. Both, correctable issues which are the fault of the owners, not the dogs.

[Pithlet]

29. I agree with you.

Training is key. Had my Shelties herding inclination been enough of a nuisance, we probably could have trained him out of it. My whole point was that certain behaviors can be traits that are bred into a specific breed. And that anyone who acquires a particular breed shouldn't be ignorant to thoses traits, so that they can indeed address that and train out any possible undesired traits. Certain behaviors CAN be breed specific. The notion that all dogs are pure, and the only ones who bite are the ones that were trained to do so is what I have a problem with. And, even with a well trained dog, I don't think it should ever be assumed that that dog will never bite. It just isn't worth taking that chance.

[Pharlo]

32. There are only two ways to ensure another dog shall never bite a human:

1) Ban all dogs.
2) Ban all humans.

Neither is a reasonable expectation. Barring these, the best you can hope for is to minimize the probablitiy. To do this, I train my animals as well as I can and I also take the precaution of having them spayed or neutered as soon as possible. But, even I am not so naive as to think that is a guarantee. If I am not home, they are not outside, they're in the house. If I have guests, the dogs stay in the room in which I am, or I put them outside (they have plenty of space to run and no close neighbors). Or in the event of an influx of young children, the dogs are placed in a bedroom until things quiet down.

I think the point many people are trying to make is that a responsible owner does the best they can with training and other preventive measures. However, in spite of their best efforts, some irresponsible asshole out there will abuse or neglect (and failure to train a large animal properly consistutes a form of neglect regardless of how well you feed, water, and play with a dog) an animal, which consequently results in a backlash against a particular breed - in this instance pit bulls.

If I had a pit bull, I would be completely defensive as well. I am not going to say my dogs would never bite. In fact, I can imagine several instances in which they may. As their human, it is my responsibility to identify, anticipate, and deflate any such situation. And the ability of an owner to prevent the unexpected situations in which a dog bite may occur is the extent to which the animal has been trained.

Training is the issue, not the breed.
And training is the resposibility of the owner.
Conversely, inadequate training, poor training, or no training is also the responsibility of the owner - Not the breed.

[Pithlet]

35. The problem is

Irresponsible pet ownsership is pretty broad across all the breeds, and of course, even non pure bred dogs. But, when the irresponsibility is rampant amongst the stronger, more powerful breeds, the consequences for society are deadly. I don't agree that breeding is not an issue, not 100%. I do think that some breeds were used and bred specifically for activities that make them dangerous. Some breeds WERE bred to kill, even if the intended target was another animal. In the hands of resonsible owners such as yourself, those same breeds can make great pets. But too often they don't fall into responsible hands. I gues the way I feel about it is I am perfectly willing to stay away from a particular breed even if it may appeal to me, if it means saving lives. I just don't agree that perpetuating and maintaining a breed that can be so dangerous in the wrong hands is the right thing to do. Particularly when there are so many unwanted dogs who's only crime is they aren't pure bred. They are passed over in favor of the "dog of the month". Of course, I think that should be the choice regardless of whatever breed was considered, but particularly the big, powerful ones that were bred specifically to kill.

I'm not sure that breed specific bans are the answer to any of those problems I addressed. It doesn't cover dangerous dogs who aren't pure bred, for example. But, I don't think that certain breeds are 100% harmless, and only have a bad rep because of bad people. Thre are too many instances of maulings and serious injuries to account for that. Instances where the dog never hurt anyone before. Sometimes I think the owners of dogs who have killed are are well meaning people who didn't know what they were getting into. And it was too easy to do as the breed is so easy to get, because of their popularity. I just can't get behind anyone acquiring them and supporting that.

[Pharlo]

36. If you were to eliminate all breeds that were bred for killing there

wouldn't be many breeds left. You've just eliminated all hounds, several "working" breeds, the entire "terrier" class, the "greyhound" class - there really wouldn't be much of a selection left. Might as well eliminate dogs altogether.

Eliminate Pit Bulls.
Irresponsible owners replace them with Rottweilers.
Eliminate Rottweilers.
Irresponsible owners replace them with German Shepherds.
Eliminate German Shepherds.
Irresponsible owners replace them with Doberman Pinschers.
Eliminate Doberman Pinschers.
Irresponsible owners replace them with....
Eliminate....

Where does it end?

With Shelties?

Pomeranians?

Shi Tzus?

The elimination of dogs?

By banning the breeds/dogs your not addressing the problem, merely the symptom.

[redacted]

28. My dog was attacked by 2 pits and almost killed at the dog park.

That doesn't matter to you? It's ok because they only attack other animals -- is that what you are saying?

And what about the fact that most dogs view children as equals.

[Pithlet]

30. That is the reason why children are often targeted.

Thank you for posting. Pet owners have to be responsible, and that includes making sure that their dog harms no one else. It includes being aware of the behaviors specific to a breed, instead of being defensive and insisting Fifi wouldn't hurt a fly.

[Dervill Crow]

33. That's why my dog doesn't go to the dog park

and she gets locked up if small kids come over. She's never been aggressive, but that doesn't mean she would never be.

[Pharlo]

34. I had a dog attacked at the veterinarians,

and the owner of the attacking dog wasn't doing anything.

Pissed me off. If it had been the other way around, that woman would have been screaming.

Chandler (my dog 148 pound doberman - VERY large doberman - purebred, had papers) was attacked by a 5 lb Chihuahua. This animal was snarling, snapping, growling, and biting Chandler's ankle. And this woman did NOTHING. Meanwhile, my poor dog who knows he can't attack the smaller dog, is shaking his foot, looking at me. Finally, I said "Look Chandler, a snack." And that is when she FINALLY picked up her dog.

I'm sorry about your dog.

At least Chandler's life was never in danger, but that doesn't mean no harm was done - and because the attacking dog was small, didn't make it ok. A noticeable side effect was that Chandler never again wanted a small dog near him. I could NEVER again trust him around small dogs. Cats and puppies he was ok with, but I would never again trust him around a small dog. That untrained piece of vermin undid quite a bit of my training. I don't give a damn what a dog's size, they should be trained not to attack other dogs - as well as humans.


edit: noun/verb agreement.

[Balbus]

16. Because she was so cute and sweet!

She may not be so cute anymore but she's just as sweet as ever!

[sbj405]

21. No pit bull here, but 2 pound puppies and I can say

that sometimes you don't pick the dog, rather they pick you.

If you would have asked me what type of dog I wanted, I wouldn't have described either of my boys. In fact, prior to getting the second, I went into the shelter with 4 criteria - not black, female, short haired, smaller than my other dog. Well, I walked out with a big, black, male dog.

[Ladyhawk]

37. I've never owned a pit and I've noticed that there may be some

truth to the idea that they are more dangerous than other breeds. At first, I thought that this was because they were bred for pit fighting and being vicious. Then I wondered if perhaps people who wanted to "look tough" bought the dogs for this reason and this reason alone. Violent people can turn their dogs violent. (This isn't always the case. My father and his hunting buddies were very abusive toward their hounds, but rarely does a hound turn mean. They are by nature very docile dogs.)

Personally, I like the look of a pitbull terrier, but my experiences with them--all anecdotal, I know--make me leery of the breed. One attacked and nearly killed my cousin's silky-haired Dachsund. My best friend has a part-pit, which, after two years of living with her elderly Golden Retriever companion, attacked the older dog. One of my cousin's boyfriends had a pit. That dog had bitten more than one person. My cousin's bf was NOT a violent person. A lady at the peace vigils has a part-pit that she has dubbed "the peace dog." At the last vigil, that dog went after a few passersby (joggers) with intent. It looked pretty scary.

I've only known a few pits in my life and all of them but one have shown very aggressive behavior. It can't ALL be the owners' fault.

I really like the look of a pit. They can be strikingly handsome dogs. The grandson of my neighbor-across-the-hall at my last apartment complex had the most beautiful pit I have ever seen...so far no aggressive behavior. That was a dog I wouldn't mind owning but for the reputation and my own limited experience with pitbulls.

With Cinnabar, my cousin's bf's dog, the aggression came out of the blue, as it did with my best friend's part-pit. I understand that these dogs can seem "OK" then suddenly go ballistic. Could the same thing have happened with other dog breeds? You bet. I'd like to see some statistics relating pitbulls and pitbull mixes with other large dog breeds. I would like for these statistics to include the owners' police records. It would be interesting to see the nature / nurture argument applied to various breeds of dogs.

I think breeders need to take a good look at this breed and honestly ask if aggression has been bred into them. If so, I don't think the breed should be destroyed, but rather "placed on probation" until the aggression is thoroughly eliminated.

If you breed a hunting dog for looks only, the hunter will lose its ability to hunt. I noticed that was the case with my father's hounds. The good-looking lines were terrible hunters. Generally, the uglier the hound, the better it hunted. :) That wasn't always true, but it was interesting to see ugly ol' Scott out-hunt the "pretty" dogs. I'm just trying to make a point that it's possible to breed out (and breed in) certain characteristics.

All I see is denial on both sides. It would be nice to get some statistics on both dogs and owners. It would be interesting to see if owners of violent pits were violent themselves. That would make me more inclined to believe that the Staffordshire terrier has been maligned for no good reason. Until then, I will tend to believe that pitbulls can seem sweet most of the time, but that some of them are a walking timebomb of aggression.

Is there compelling statistical evidence somewhere? I guess I should have asked that from the beginning.

[Qanisqineq]

38. Most of my neighbors own pitbulls

It seems to be a status thing with them.

Other people come over with pitbulls and they all stand around and look at it. They are constantly breeding them, too. They don't take the best care of them, they have no shelter, a small yard to run in where they tear open the garbage, and are kept quite thin (but not thin enough to get in trouble for it). Their latest puppies were weaned at an extremely early age, they couldn't even walk yet. And all the dogs are pretty mean. The people can't enter their backyards without yelling at the dogs to get away.

It is sad, but if you report them for no shelter then they insist the dogs are allowed in the house all the time or sleep in the shed.