Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas. Seeking info on these cities.

[saltpoint]

DUers, can I have your comments and considerations on 3 cities:

Phoenix

Tucson

Las Vegas


How strong is each as a place for progressives? Not the political profile alone but also coffee houses, theater, alternative media, mass transit, and so forth.

Would appreciate your range of observations.

TIA

:hi:

[evlbstrd]

1. All living on borrowed time and water.

[saltpoint]

2. Their desert climates. Yes.

A long-term factor to consider.

(worrisome, too.)

[City Lights]

3. I've lived in the Phoenix area for almost 5 years and I'm not impressed.

The Phoenix area is more conservative than the Tucson area, so for progressives, Phoenix sucks. I keep hearing that AZ is becoming more Democratic, yet Kerry lost AZ by a larger margin than Gore.

Our mass transit consists of buses, however, the voters recently approved a light rail system that will connect the downtown area with the ASU campus.

The drivers are horrible, and as a result, car insurance is very expensive. Our car insurance almost doubled from what it was when we lived in the Chicago area. Same with health insurance. Car registration is also extremely expensive. In IL they charged a flat fee. Here it's based on the value of your vehicle.

The schools suck, the people (generally) are unfriendly and self-centered, and there are fundies everywhere. "W" stickers and yellow ribbons adorn many vehicles, and some people are so patriotic that one flag on their car isn't enough; they need one waving from each side of the vehicle.

On the plus side, we have fabulous Mexican restaurants. :9

[tjwash]

8. Not to mention all the gun wackos.

You'll be in a bank or department store, and someone will walk right on in with a piece. They still think it's the yippee-aye-kayoo wild west days out there. I don't miss living there one little bit.

[City Lights]

12. Yeah. I didn't mention the gun freaks, or the state legislature.

I also forgot to mention Sheriff Joe. My bad. :spank:

[Mizmoon]

23. are you kidding?

people walk into a bank with a weapon showing?

[saltpoint]

32. Hi, tjwash. One of my uncles was an international hunter --

-- so I grew up around people who owned and used guns.

But never used them myself. Have only one ear left and blasts of guns would not have been good for it anyway.

I appreciate that point about the guns, though -- and frankly I had completely overlooked it as a criterion.

Thanks.

[saltpoint]

22. Thank you, No Surrender - that's a vigorous look at Phoenix there.

I appreciate hearing especially about the car insurance & registration fees being expensive, etc. It's something to consider because the city is laid out over several miles. Well, the whole area, I mean.

Thank you very much.

[City Lights]

30. You're very welcome.

Glad I could help. :-)

[blondeatlast]

4. Tucson and Flagstaff are pretty progressive, as are parts of Phoenix.

I've lived in Phoenix for the vast majority of my life, so I feel I can speak with some authority.

For arts and progressivism, downtown Phoenix is the place to be. Around Central and Van Buren up to Thomas Road is the cultural center, and there's more of it than most people here are aware of. Also it's very, very blue. The state legislator for this area is a gay man and the entire area boasts some very progressive state leggies. It's kind of an inbred community, too--everyone knows each other somehow. There is also an effort to redevelop the downtown area that has been very successful, although the current very DINO mayor has been far less than enthusiatic about it.

If you like an urban style, central Phoenix is the place to be. Avoid the suburbs at all costs, though--I'm in the outskirts of Phoenix and this is as suburban as I care to get. It's everything you thought about the suburbs and worse by far.

[indy_azcat]

6. hey blonde - is Ash Rd in Tempe still fun?

I haven't been up that way in awhile, but vaguely recall partying down there.

[saltpoint]

24. bloneatlast, your comments on the Phoenix burbs have been echoed by

a friend of mine there, so I think you know what you're talking about.

Had heard about the gay congressman, too. But didn't know about the dino mayor.

I will take to heart your admonition about living in the suburbs. It sounds to me like what you're saying makes good sense.

[indy_azcat]

5. Tucson thoughts

Big city w/ a small town feel. It's SOOO spread out you can find areas to suit your needs: from the rural-ish (red) Marana bordered area, to the ritzy NW (celeb winter homes), to the liberal university/downtown area.

The downtown area is pretty sad compared to other metros, although they are currently trying to infuse more life into it. There's the super liberal/artsy areas around 4th ave (university-ish - http://www.fourthavenue.org/), which is where you'll also find the best (non-chain) coffee houses (Cafe Quebec, Epic, and Time Market <http://www.timemarket.net/>) were some personal faves). Between the U and local groups, there's definitely a good cultural presence, and hell, Phoenix is only an hour and a half away (no worse than cross-towning san fran). You can always find alt rock playing somewhere, although it's sad that the DPC died (my first Fugazi concert!)

Alt rag = the weekly: www.tucsonweekly.com

Busing - Sun Tran (http://www.suntran.com/) pretty well covers the town, plus the trolley :) Short hops, you're better off biking (super bike friendly town with many paths!). Again, it's really spread out, so a car is very nice unless happen to be in an area that handles all your needs.

Let me know if you have any specific ?'s - hell, I lived there 15 years (which is a lot when you're 27 :P). I also have (limited) knowledge of Phoenix and (strip mostly) have visited Las Vegas a few times.

[havocmom]

7. The Tucson Weekly ROCKS!

And Sun Tran is SOOO much better than dealing with traffic, though waiting for a bus in July, during rush hour traffic makes you realize it is hotter IN the city than the airport weather station :)

Great street fairs, great religious diversity. Interesting cultural events and still with small town feel.

If you like interesting radio, KXCI Community Radio http://www.kxci.org/ in Tucson is really great. You can hear it on the web. Check out the schedule to get an idea of the diversity. http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kxci/guide.guidemain?t=1&action=viewFutureGuide&month=5&day=7&year=2005

Kitt Peak, a planetarium at the U and a really active amature astronomers club for sky watchers. Az Sonora Desert Museum west of town is one of the great zoos/gardens of the world. It is fantastic! Mt Lemmon is 30-40 minutes and 20 degrees from Tucson, a 'Sky Island' of trees and mountain respite.

Great Mexican food. Interesting local bands. Pretty diverse population. Some decent used book stores. Resorts to pamper you. Hiking to challenge you. Celtic Festival, Dia De Los Muertos, October Fest, Mariachi Festival,St Patrick's Day parade (Tucson was founded by an Irishman traveling with the Spanish explorers) Fourth Ave Street Fair, twice a year, Greek Festival, also twice a year. A celebration of all the ethnic groups of the area in Oct, the Tucson Meet Yourself Festival is a hoot. And if you like bagpipes, Tucson has it covered. The Kitchen Musicians group is active and fantastic. Blues Festivals, Blue Grass, Folk Festival. Lots of strange and interesting organizations.

South of Tucson, Tubac, an old Spanish Garrison town turned art colony. They have some fun festivals too. South of that, an old mission, now Park, where they have a nice festival in Dec, kicked off by native shaman 'Deer Dancers'

Horse racing, rodeos, fantastic gardens at Tohono Chul park (besides the Desert museum) and an urban botanical garden. Lots of garden groups, classes. Ag station in town, complete with cows is always a giggle. Love to go by in spring to see the new ponies!

Lots of bike paths. Lots of places to hike, walk, stroll. Sabino Canyon, walk it, run it or take the tram. Lots of night sky as lights are sorta controlled to keep the Kitt Peak Observatory happy.

Fantastic sunsets and if you like lightening... monsoon season will blow you away.

Phoenix, on the other hand, sucks. :P

[indy_azcat]

9. "Phoenix, on the other hand, sucks."

:rofl:

Shhh, we're not supposed to let them know that!

Thanks for doing the Old Pueblo far more justice than I.

And there's Old Tucson and Gates Pass and Speedway cruisin' and Pima Canyon hiking and Bookman's is far more than "decent" and hot air balloons and just like Vegas you can gamble on the rez if yer into that and you can retire to Greenvalley and golf courses galore and... umm... Oro Valley PD... and the Rillito Wash park and Spring Fling at UA and on and on!!!

ETA: and I forgot Mt. Lemon skiiing and camping... yippee!

:D

yea Tucson!

[City Lights]

13. Who is "them?"

Shhh, we're not supposed to let them know that!

Read post 3. I'm quite aware of my surroundings. :P

[indy_azcat]

15. I'm sure we can all agree

At least it ain't Yuma.


Have Britny and KF moved into Bratsdale yet?

[City Lights]

16. We agree on Yuma, too.

;-)

Please tell me you're joking about Mr. and Mrs. Spears heading to Bratsdale (we call it Snobsdale or Snottsdale). :puke:

[indy_azcat]

17. Purely rumor mill

She was there visiting:
http://www.azcentral.com/style/articles/042605britney.html

my wife :whisper: subscribes to US magazine and it said they were thinking about it... and were also considering buying an apartment in Vegas where baby spears was conceived.

Wasn't there a song Scottsdale Brats that got some radio play like 10 yrs ago?

[City Lights]

20. I vote for them to stick to Vegas.

I'm not familiar with the Scottsdale Brats song. :shrug:

[havocmom]

18. Birding! How did I forget the birding? Madera Canyon. Short trip SE to

Ramsey Canyon. Tombstone. Bisbee, a hot bed of left wing radicals from way back, site of union riots during WWI! Ostrich and Emu ranches... MMMM, emu burgers :woohoo:

Oro Valley PD! Yeah, DO NOT SPEED in OV! Isn't the BioSphere for sale again? Now there's a 'dome home'!

Balloon festival is great but I love the Balloon Glow on the UofA mall at Christmas time. Christmastime: Winterhaven by foot, horse carriage or hay wagon: Ah, look at the lights!

Ice Hockey! Nothing as good for relieving hostility like an Ice Cat 'Scum' Devil game. Bring your rbber chicken and shake dat ding!

Downtown Saturday nights. The Mollys rocking Irish/Mex/Country/rock fusion. Fans broke the floor joists dancing to the Mollys in the Temple of Music and Art one night. What a band!

Coffee on patios, good conversation. Chuys for sirloin tri tips, salsa, chips and brewskis, but only when you are REALLY hungry, boy they serve a meal! Good Thai, Chinese, Greek, Indian, Italian, BBQ. Fourth Ave funky shops, old hippies never die, they hang at 4TH Ave. Catholic Cathedral and lots of Pagan groups. UU churches and enough fundies to keep ya on your toes. ;)

Hear's Music for classical, jazz, ethnic. The Folk Shop for old time instruments. The Chicago Store for all other horns... Wigarama! Funky cafes downtown. Egees for fast decent food and frozen lemonade (makes a great party mix for margaritas by the bucket!)

Art museum and galleries. Funky old adobes in the old part of town.

The smell of the desert plants after a monsoon rain and the chorus of toads. Coyotes crossing Broadway Blvd in the middle of town. Golden eagles, turkey vultures, owls of every shape and size, humming birds.

Dr Andrew Weil and his center for Integrative Medicine at the U of A Medical center. You can get a lot of different choices for health care.

Kidd Squid & his magic juke box.

yeah, golf courses too, if ya like that sort of thing, but with everything else, why bother?

Oh, and sometimes you can spot 'the naked guy' What a tan!

Las Vegas is OK if you like a lot of artificial lighting.

[indy_azcat]

21. game on

titan missle museum
UA Clothespins
Freaky million $ sculpture in front of the library
Miracle Mile ;)
5k's every weekend
Cedric Dempsey
A Mountain
A Mnt Fireworks
A Mnt on Fire
Homecoming
UA football sucks...
but UA B-Ball kicks butt
Armory Park
lots o' parks... I like Ft. Lowell
Bistros
Rendevois (sp?)
Club Congress
Skate Country Roller Rink
PAUL BUNYON... yeah... you gotta live here to figure that one out
http://www.mrbeer.com
Davis Monthan
Nimbus Brewing
Thunderbird shows
Watching people get stranded by flash floods
San Xavier Mission
Tons of resale shops
Cars don't rust - so you see some beauties on the road
Random murals everywhere
Thunder Canyon brewery (glad to see Foothills mall back on it's feet!)
Driving/biking all of River Rd


and

RODEO DAYS

[havocmom]

59. Subject: Sorry I missed the rest of the game : ) Was typing reply when the

clobbered me and knocked the computer out
Wow, we got pounded here. Lost my big thesis, a shadow of it to follow ;)

Back to the topic:
Christmas: walking, carriage, hay wagon through Winterhaven: oh, look at da lights! Nacimento in the Barrio. Luminarias on old adobes and the DeGrazzia Gallery. Balloon Glow on the U of A Mall. Christmas Tamales! The Boys' Choir, music of the angels!

Art Museum and Galleries.

Old Town Artisans

Gem and Mineral Show in Feb. Get a sparkley thing!

Pan Dulce from a barrio bakery

Sunset at Gates Pass

Biking down Old Spanish Trail

Supper at Saguaro Corners, watching the wildlife.

The dude ranch on East Speedway

Sunday Brunch at the Arizona Inn, where even I feel young ;)

Spring Training major league ball. Minor league ball in summer

Dropping into Shooters to find I missed Linda Ronstadt jamming by one day, AGAIN x(

Lived next to Ft Lowell Park for years: Pioneer Days/Civil War re-enactments, Ferret Olympics, Humane Society Dog Days in the Park, Tee ball on Saturday mornings in summer. Eight man football with the small private schools Friday nights in fall. Geezer softball weekdays in spring- oh, those 70 year old cheerleaders! Duck pond, pecan orchard, blue hereon coming in to roost.

Agua Calliente Park on the far east side

Acacia trees in bloom in Feb, Jasmine vines in May. Ah, the scent!

Ice Break contest > when will it officially hit 100 degrees, signaled by the 'ice breaking up on the Santa Cruz River' ;)

Sand trout, same river.

Mesquite trees blooming, everybody sneeze. Bean pods in late summer, tempting the horses

Javelinas on your doorstep. Every size and shape of owl. Golden eagles, hummingbirds, finding a bobcat on top of a saguaro, seeing a mountain lion sleeping in a sand trap at the Ventana golf course

Monthly full moon tram rides up Sabino Canyon, walk back down

Seven Falls

River Road, keep it kinky!

Blessing of the Animals at St Phillips

Chuys for fun sirloin tri tips salsa brew, but only when you are REAL hungry.

The glass gallery and workshop. Take a class in glass blowing.

Bright colored doors on old adobes just south of downtown.

Wigarama and Hydro downtown. Not your usual shopping.

Temple of Music and art, where I saw a play written by Steve Martin. The Music Hall where my daughter took me to see Mikhail Baryshnikov and the White Oak Dance Company. Centennial Hall at the U where Michael Moore put on a show just a few months ago

Great Thai food. Or Greek, Indian, Italian, Malaysian,

Or Have BBQ and listen to the Sons of the Pioneers. We came out of the Temple of Music and Art after a play one night. It was the day Roy Rogers died. There was a VERY old man with his granddaughter. She set up huge speakers and his mic for him in Armory Park. He was one of the original singers with Sons of the Pioneers. He had come to sing alone in remembrance of the Big Singing Cowboy who rode the white horse... He sang several songs. Just his grand daughter, me, my sister and another pal and the winos for an audience. He sang them all, all the old songs from our childhood. He stopped, took off his hat, put it on his heart and said "This one's for you, Roy." Then he sang "Happy Trails to You." My sister cried. I cry just remembering.

Tombstone, not far and great fun. Ghosts in the Birdcage, doncha know

Bisbee, a town full of radicals since the labor riots during WWI. Do not miss Bisbee. Old hippies who aren't on 4th Ave are in Bisbee. So are some great pups and antique stores. The ONE BOOK STORE and THE OTHER BOOK STORE were there, don't know if they still are, the two books might have sold out... http://www.azcentral.com/travel/arizona/features/articl...

Madera Canyon for birds. Ramsey Canyon for Coati. Turkey Creek, just because.

Summer not quite over, but heading out when the chili stands pop up. Get some ristas. Celebrate the harvest. It's time for desert dwellers to crawl outta their summer burrows and resume life outside!

You know you have REAL friends in Tucson when you get invited to a Quiensera (sp?). Some lovely young latina is celebrating coming of age. There is a party, young people all dressed up. She gets her first pair of high heels, usually presented by father and grandfather. Everybody, I mean everybody dances! When you have been invited, you have made an impression and somebody cares about you!

Antigone Bookstore on 4th. Not to be missed!

[indy_azcat]

66. set and match - dang havocmom!!!!!!11

I bow before your total knowledge of all that is Tucson.

WOW! Way to go!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[havocmom]

70. Lived there a long time, grasshopper!

Still have my daughter there, keeping me posted... and KXCI on the web :thumbsup:

[saltpoint]

35. Birding! You won't hear any argument out of me on that.

I like it in Florida, Indiana, upper Michigan, or anywhere else where I can just get outdoors for a few minutes.

Don't know who the naked guy is. Do I want to know who the naked guy is?

I had a chance to meet Andrew Weil once and was impressed with both his wide range of knowledge and his incredibly warm and welcoming personality. Nice guy, that one.

Your post adds to the references to the 4th St. area. I want to go there tonight! It sounds just great.

[saltpoint]

26. Hi, havocmom.

Loved the detailed, affirming summary of Tucson with that stinging slap at Phoenix at the end!

I appreciate the radio link. I'm not into much mainstream radio of any format because of the hollering and advertising, so your including that is a big deal for me. Thank you.

From my point of view at least, a city with "monsoon" lightning would be a plus.

You make a real strong case for Tucson. Thanks.

[saltpoint]

25. wow, indy_azcat -- you have given me a lot of to hang my hat on.

You mention specifically the area around 4th avenue and "university-ish" district -- can I ask you if that area is self-sustaining? That is, does it have a post office, a hardware store, a drugstore, and grocery -- those sustainable business & services, or would residents there have to travel for one or more of them?

The links, too -- thank you for those!

[indy_azcat]

34. welcome

Hmmm, it's been a little while and you know how quickly stores can change over - the problem (or solution?) is it's adjacent to downtown (and it's by no means a real metro downtown) - so not a lot of suburban type easiness and stripmalls.

There's USPS boxes all over and a PO on 6th (about a half mile from the end of 4th). 4th ave strip is like what a mile or 2 long and is bordered by downtown and the U. So there's lots of smaller groceries there. FOr a bigber chain I'd say probably 2 miles from the end of 4th (safeway comes to mind). 2 or so miles in the other direction and you hit speedway and campbell - major commerce roadways with dang near every commercial store you can think of (ya know, blockbuster, boston chicken, groceries, druigstores yadda yadda). The businesses actually on 4th, though, are mainly specialized (bars, restaurants, arts, books, clothes, music, etc.)

For long distance travel the greyhound is right there. Locally, the SUn Tran hub is the center of downtown.

In short, it's a really bustling little area of Tucson - you won't be wanting :D

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=6th+and+campbell+tucson+az&ll=32.233337,-110.943914&spn=0.040283,0.077992&hl=en

[saltpoint]

37. Well, it's on my list. Big visit to the Southwest coming up &

I hoped to get various DUers' thoughts on these cities. I've brushed all three, but don't know very much about them.

You and the other posters in this thread have been very good teachers (and patient, too, since I'm starting almost from scratch).

I once took a vacation to the Chiricahua National Monument for a chance to walk in the Heart of Rocks canyon there. What a silent, beautiful place.

When i'm there I will give that 4th street area a very close look.

My thanks again.

[indy_azcat]

38. anytime!

and we all forgot Saguaro Nat'l Monument :shrug:

Hope you enjoy it! Monsoon's are traditionally in August. And just be sure to catch the currents in the Weekly for the current haps.

Give the the O.P. a hug for me
Nite!
~indy

[Sabriel]

10. I lived in Vegas for 8 years

If you like crime, traffic, pollution, and overcrowding, then this is the city for you! I would never ever have kids there.

OTOH, that lack of state income tax helped us put some money together to go back to grad school. So, thanks, Nevada.

The over-building and the resultant pillaging of the water is troubling, to say the least.

[indy_azcat]

11. but the Bellagio

seems to have water a plenty. Those foutains are pretty darn nifty though... probably a huge resource waste. Is it bad over by UNLV too?

We got the grad-school-no-tax gift from Jeb and Disney :)

[saltpoint]

28. Sabriel, you are added to the list of folks warning me about the water

and its availability, etc.

I had read of the no-state-income-tax policy in Nevada. I wonder how long they will be able to hold out with that when their population is growing so quickly

At some point it seems as if those people would require services, meaning a raise in taxes of some sort?

Crime in Vegas I had also heard of, but I lived in NYC for several years and got fairly used to walking at night there in many parts of the city. Should I be more worried about Las Vegas? I have heard scattered warnings about muggings along the Strip.

thank you, Sabriel. Much appreciated.

[Awsi Dooger]

52. My good friend was murdered in Las Vegas in March 2004

He was a sports bettor and blackjack/poker player who flaunted his bankroll despite warnings, and walked the Strip area late at night since he didn't own a car. The case is still unsolved.

I live in Vegas due to my job as a sports statistical analyst, but am hoping to relocate if I can get the sportsbooks to understand I don't have to be there helping them with Windows glitches. I liked the city in the mid-to-late '80s but now it's much more crowded and impersonal. My friends from that era have left town with few exceptions.

[saltpoint]

56. Awsi Dooger, I am very sorry to hear about your friend.

That's a violent and sad thing. Very sorry.

You sound like you are surviving in Vegas but may relocate if you can. I hope that happens for you, and that you get to a place you like much better.

[Sabriel]

55. No taxes = no services

Very few parks, not much of a rec department to speak of, few social services, and so on. We had a $120,000 house and paid $750 in property taxes. The same price house in Madison, WI set us back $2500 in taxes, but it was worth it, IMO. Sometimes you have to pay to get, and I don't mind my money going to social and community interests like that.

[enigmatic]

14. Tucson...

Awesome city; I lived in Phoenix for most of the 90's and made it to Tucson or Flagstaff whenever I could...

[saltpoint]

29. I like that you can evidently navigate all 3 of those cities, enigmatic.

I've only visited Tucson and Flagstaff.

Have to say, they are both stunningly beautiful although the landscapes are different of course. On one occasion I stopped on a cross-country drive in Flagstaff. In February. Got out of the car and was almost blasted off the face of the earth by a VERY strong cold wind.

I have a lot of respect for winters in Flagstaff!

[enigmatic]

46. Ohhh....Flagstaff winters are something else!

To me, it's a perfect 4-season town, and the vibe there is perfect. I rode what was left of Arizona Route 66 west of town a number of years ago and the whole Area was out of an Ansel Adams photograph...

[saltpoint]

47. "...and the whole area was out of an Ansel Adams photograph."

enigmatic, that is a damned nice line.

And just right for that stunning, winter-cold landscape.

[enigmatic]

49. It's absolutely beautiful....

Riding my mountain bike on the deserted Route 66 ws one of the few Perfect Moments in my life...

[swag]

19. Tucson

Hotel Congress and associated clubs, including Cup Cafe for breakfast.

This will start you off well. Talk to the desk help and the servers. Ask them what they would do.

On edit: see who's playing at Club Congress, then see what the local rags (suggested by others in this thread) have to say about what's happening at night. Then pick your shots.

Tucson can be extremely fun.

[saltpoint]

31. What an interesting approach, swag -- to ask the desk folks and

servers at the Hotel Congress. A refreshing suggestion for strategy. I may just follow that advice, too.

And I'll also be looking into the local alternative weeklies, etc. to try to get a bird's eye view on this caper.

Appreciate your very original and practical suggestion on the Hotel Congress.

Thank you.

[swag]

36. Dillinger escaped from the Hotel Congress once

and the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion recorded a notorious live promo album at Club Congress one night. I regret to this day that I missed Link Wray by one night at Club Congress.

I have had many good evenings in the club watching bands or DJs, and many good nights in the hotel and the bar. If you stay at the hotel, do accept the complimentary earplugs, particularly if you are in a room near the Club.

And the help has always been the most interesting and informed group of people.

Have a good trip.

[saltpoint]

39. swag, thanks for the good wishes & info and comments.

Dillinger -- John Dillinger the bank robber?

He's a native Indianan, I think. And is very notoriously famous in Indiana and throughout the midwest generally, not so much because of his illegal doings but for his prodigious dong.

You've heard of urban myths? Well, this would probably be a "rural" myth. In Indiana high schools, people repeat, as they have repeated for generations now, the rumor that John Dillinger's dong was transhumanly huge and is preserved in the Smithsonian.

In truth I have not seen ALL of the Smithsonian and do not have the temerity to ask the docents there, "Could you direct me, please, to John Dillinger's penis?"

In this day and age they'd probably make one phone call and I'd be sent to Guantanamo on an overnight airplane.

Anyway, I had no idea Dillinger had made it that far west.

[swag]

58. Sure Crusoe

A small warning about Hotel Congress - luxury hotel it ain't. It has kind of a flophouse feel.

http://www.hotcong.com/


Anyway, enjoy your travels.

[Aristus]

27. Tucson:

Hot air

Phoenix: Hot, bad air

Las Vegas: Hot, bad, smokey air.

[saltpoint]

33. So it's beginning to take shape, then: not all that much water and

hot air all around, sometimes bad and smokey, too.

Yikes.

hi, Aristus. I had in the back of my mind a report by a former Phoenix resident that it could often be surprisingly humid there -- more humid than some people used to think -- because so many folks from Ohio and Michigan and so on moved out there and then insisted on green grass in their yards.

I like green grass just fine but out west I would expect a different landscape.

Thanks for the air assessment for these three cities.

[maveric]

40. Screw the Desert! Come to San Diego.

Best climate in the US and a bit bluer than the three forementioned cities. We have the beach too.

[saltpoint]

43. A late entry dark horse candidate city from maveric! Love it.

San Diego's climate is famous. I've only driven through the city a time or two but out the window I saw a beautiful place.

I really did believe that people who lived there were lucky to be that city's residents.

How do progressives fare in San Diego, maveric? Are there blue enclaves scattered around town?

[maveric]

48. There are blue enclaves and the city-proper is getting bluer.

The South Bay is pretty blue, Hillcrest(gay section) is blue, Ocean Beach is blue and IMHO the best place on the planet. Stay away from East County if the repugs/fundies bug you.
We need more progressives out here. Come on out!

[saltpoint]

54. You've given me some blue districts there...

and I can't argue with the idea of a beach-access city.

I'm afraid I'd want to avoid East County, because yes, I have a powerful allergy to fundies & rethugs!

We'll see. You've made a strong case, maveric.

[Kathryn STone]

50. question: if it's bluer, can we get jobs?

I am a corporate nomad my parents moved me around 4x before I got into college.
San Diego is wonderful, love it but how is the economy? Don't feel like polishing the brass on some rich guy's yacht. I graduate paralegal school 9/7/05 woo hoo!

[maveric]

60. There are jobs here. Paralegal? No problem!

[Kathryn STone]

71. Thank you that gives me hope (re: blue state paralegal jobs) :-) nm

[Aristus]

61. Hi, Old Crusoe.

:hi:

I shouldn't denigrate Arizona too much; it's a beautiful state. I lived there for three years as a kid. Sierra Vista, about 60 miles south of Tucson and only about 10 miles north of the border. AZ really IS knock-your-eyes-out gorgeous; Grand Canyon, the Petrified Forest, the Painted Desert, the saguaro cacti and so on.

[saltpoint]

62. Yes, the view from some of those quiet, remote highways is just

staggering.

I would really like it if a state like Arizona could have both the natural beauty AND a progressive state legislature!

[enigmatic]

64. Ever make it to Bisbee?

Probably my favorite place in Arizona not named Jerome; I almost moved there a couple of times..

[leftofthedial]

41. Tucson is by far the best of the three for a progressive

Phoenix is RW suburban SUV hell

Las Vegas is great if you like that cheap, sleazy capitalist thing

[saltpoint]

42. LOL! I love your posts, leftofthedial. I promise not to tell the

chambers of commerce of Phoenix and Las Vegas that you just dissolved them as worthy locations in two effortless but brilliant sentences.

Nice to bump into you again on DU.

And thank you.

[leftofthedial]

44. cheers!

:toast:

[politicat]

45. Grew up in Phx metro and escaped ASAP

Only really good place for libs is Tempe, and it's only barely tolerable. (on edit, forgot Downtown PHX. That's relatively recent; not something I grewt up with.) Tucson is better, but even that's not saying much (on edit: with the state Lege and such behaving like dimbulbs as a whole...). The state is not terribly astute when it comes to elected officials (remember, this is the state that elected 2 govs in a row who had to be removed from office for rampant idiocy.) Avoid Yuma. Just trust us on this one.

The climate is ridiculous. There's far too much concrete so the heat just lingers..... When we first moved to that area in the mid 80s, night temps dropped about 40 degrees from day temps. The increase in the amount of pavement has cut that night temp drop in half. (i.e. when I was a kid, the days would get up to 115 or so and drop to 75 at night, meaning that thick walled houses held a lot of the night cool into the next day and a swamp cooler took care of the rest. Now, a 115 degree day drops to 100 or 95 at night, and the houses are balloon construction, meaning no thick insulating adobe or concrete block. AC is a must now.)

All three cities get their water from Utah and Colorado, and they're likely to lose a significant portion if they don't stop it with the sod lawns and decorative fountains and water parks. (Let's just say there's some movement in the public here to get the water laws changed.) A dry winter would leave all three cities in a world of hurt.

While the west side of the PHX metro isn't so bad, the east side is suburban hell. Mesa was a Mormon enclave, and it still shows - lots of dozen kid, neoconservative people who abhor recreational sex, liquor, coffee, tabaccy, swim suits.... They're only about 40% of the population, but they are a huge cultural force. Gilbert and Chandler have many of the same problems for outsiders (aka gentiles....) There are no mixed marriages for Mormons in general; the gentile partner converts or doesn't marry. Please understand that I am not an anti-mormon bigot; I grew up among them (as a gentile) and have a great deal of respect for some of their practices and ideas. I also have serious disagreements with them on some of those same practices and ideas. For small children who move into a heavily Mormon community, the pressure to conform is very high, and especially among girls, the price paid for non-conformity or just being not a member of the same Beehive group can be excruciating. In a classroom with 12 other girls where 7 of them have a clique of shared faith, the other six girls are usually in for a bumpy year. Be aware that the Boy Scouts are Mormon dominated in that area, and the Girl Scouts really struggle to survive - Mormon girls do not participate in Girl Scouts. These are mainstream Mormons - not FLDS.

Even leaving the Mormons aside, the east side of the valley is suburban hell. Every house is blocked off from the neighbors with walls - not fences, walls. There are very few parks and very few places for kids to play communally even when the weather permits. I have no idea if children are in your plans or in your present, but what applies to kids applies to adults, too - there are very few places to take a frisbee and toss it around, or have a nice picnic and feed the ducks.

The valley is also on a tape loop of chain stores. Save Tempe, which has some internal funkiness, pretty much you can drive - and you must, the public transit system is a joke in the burbs - the 100 mile span of the valley and see the same Applebee's Best Buy Sears Target Bennigans Burger King Albertson's Walmart Chili's Outback Media Play Gap Applebee's Best Buy Sears Target Bennigans.... forever.

Oh, I mentioned the valley is 100 miles across... and filling up. There's currently pretty much solid development for about 70 miles of that 100 miles, and the current rate of development is 1 acre per minute. There's minimal public transit outside of the PHX core, and even that's rather laughable compared to Denver, Chicago or even San Francisco. You must drive, but be aware that the freeways are not keeping pace, and that most people drive as if they're 40 minutes from home and Ed McMahon is waiting on the couch with the $10 mil check and the wife's in labor. Cars with delicate cooling systems need not apply. Note: the summer I worked in S. Tempe and lived in N. Tempe (a 30 minute drive each way) I drank 2 gallons of water a day; I did not have AC in my car.

Yes, it's a valley and people drive everywhere. The technical term is inversion, but basically, all the smog stays in the area. Most people have allergies of some sort; asthma is very common, and getting more so. Between the pollution and the imported plants (which have no natural controls save water) allergy sufferers are in a world of hurt in PHX metro.

Alternative press: there's one. The Phoenix New Times, which is available on line. You might want to read about Sheriff Joe Arpaio, one of the most notorious violators of civil rights this country has ever seen... and he keeps getting elected. While I can see the point in saying that prison should not be a picnic, I don't see the point in treating those who are merely too poor to afford bail or a good lawyer as if they are serial killers. That's nothing more than criminalizing poverty. Radio: it's a Clear Channel town. Newspapers: the AZ Republic (this should clue you in) is owned by the Quayle family.

Theater.... is iffy, even for a suburban set of towns. There just aren't many, and the road shows that come through are usually block busters. Sad to say, but my grandparents' little town in Back o' Beyond Indiana get better traveling productions. Music is hit or miss. Some real talent has come out of PHX, but so has some real drek. The venues suck acoustically, except for Gammage, and it has rotten sight lines.

Coffee houses: those are improving; I found several in the East Valley when I was there last that were amazingly cool. Restaurants are also improving: I saw a lot more ethnic cuisine, including southern ethnic. (Sullivan's Pier is not to be missed if you can afford the fat of fried fish in your diet.) Mexican is extremely good in the area; usually if the shop's name ends in -berto's, you're pretty safe. Restaurant Sinaloa used to be the best place for fish tacos in the East Valley, but I can't guarantee that anymore.

The state does have very good renter's rights laws. Unfortunately, this is balanced by an excess of police. Mesa has 3x the number of police officers as Colorado Springs, CO (similar sized city) and not surprisingly, has 3x the amount of crime.

I left as soon as I possibly could, and while I've had to go back to deal with family stuff - including some extended stays - I know I could not live there. It's oppressive for me, and I get really sick every time I'm there for more than a couple days - the pollution, weather and dust, I think.

Seriously, check them out. If I were you, I'd rank them Tucson, Las Vegas a distant second, and Phoenix metro a far distant third. For that matter, if you're looking for warm weather, try Santa Fe and Albuquerque.

[saltpoint]

51. Holy moly, politicat, that is an expansive account of Phoenix --

-- and not a positive one at that. I appreciate your not sugar-coating it for me -- and the water issue keeps popping up.

I had read scattered accounts of the Sheriff there and didn't like him much, at least from what was reported. I had no trouble at all visualizing him hanging Apaches and bragging about it. He frankly struck me as a total powermonger xenophobe.

Appreciate your ranking. And also the assessment of mass transit. I've used mass transit in Chicago and San Francisco both, and I can understand the distinction you're making.

The Mormon influence in Mesa is completely news to me. Had no idea. I don't have to ask about voting trends in that area, I guess.

What congressional district did Morris Udall represent, I wonder? Was it Tucson? He seemed like a refreshingly humble man, and a moderate liberal to boot. Was Governor Meecham (sp?) one of the governors you mention? I was pretty appalled to hear his racist remarks. From web reports, your current governor is a huge improvement over those times.

I loved your image of Ed McMahon sitting on people's couch with a fat check while locals drive like crazy fools to rush home. Kinda scary.

A comprehensive overview you just offered, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

[politicat]

57. I believe Mo was from Flagstaff, but don't quote me.

I was not very aware of his politics when he was in office (he left office when I was a teen and I was in Hayworth's district at the time.) I know that his son is my hero (and my Congress critter).

There are good things about the place - the winter weather is lovely; you can garden year round and if you pick your location well, you don't need a car (Tempe is grand for this, but my folks like the burbs.... ) Visit first.

Arpaio is one scary mofo. I'm very afraid of what he would do given a bigger canvas, so to speak.

Yes, Evan Mecham was the first of the terrible twosome of governors; he took money from the state for his car dealership, among other things. He was followed by Fyfe Symington, who went to prison (but not Tent City, to my dismay) for his role in "bad banking decisions" related to the S&L collapse and several other nasty fiscal issues. Fortunately, Napolitano seems to be carrying out the tradition that women govern Arizona very well.

One other thing.... AZ has 14 counties and large school districts. They're huge. That's something that has taken some real getting used to for me, now that I'm dealing with small counties and tiny school districts. It changes a lot of political dynamics when the governmental and quasi-governmental agencies are that large.

Glad to be of service....

[enigmatic]

53. Yep....

The west side of Phoenix is gang city now, or was when I left in 2001; Central Phoenix was pretty cool though, especially the older neighborhoods (for Phoenix, anyway..).

Arpiao is the ultimate sleazeball Sheriff; his having an 80 percentproating tells you all you need to know about The Valley..

[Kathryn STone]

65. see quoted text Grew up in Phx metro and escaped ASAP"Posted by politicat

Mesa was a Mormon enclave, and it still shows - lots of dozen kid, neoconservative people who abhor recreational sex, liquor, coffee, tabaccy, swim suits.... They're only about 40% of the population, but they are a huge cultural force. Gilbert and Chandler have many of the same problems for outsiders (aka gentiles....) There are no mixed marriages for Mormons in general; the gentile partner converts or doesn't marry.

Phew! let me just say that the Valley as they call it is not all evil. I came out there to detox from having lived in NYC for a year I was 23 it was 1987. My parents who I lived with for a month or so til I got my own place 2/88 they were in a retirement village called Sun Lakes-I mean those places for 55 and older. So that was hell but I did carve out a place for myself. I had come out west wanting to go to ASU and did and graduated 1994 with a BA in History. I found the professors extremely accessible and since by that time I was in my late 20's the party scene there didn't lure me in.
Anyhow, all the things about the water I truly agree. It's a time bomb. And I agree the weather man o man. The weather is perfect for the people who come out to golf in the winter but for people like us who were not rich and left there, the summers did become increasingly hot as the construction of houses/strip malls/buildings would hold the heat in with the concrete. I live in Dallas now and it's hot and the humidity is gross but 120 is just plain hot! What I did like was the mountains that surround the city if you like to hike it's awesome. The time I lived there I liked Tempe where the Uni is the best. I can't tell you about the West side I was always in Phoenix proper or East Valley. As far as the E Valley the things I pasted about the Mormons are true. It's quite a shock they are not Jim Jones and the koolaid but Howard Hughes used only Mormon as his security men- they are so clean cut I'm sure he could rely on them.
Did not live in Tucson but it seems more laid back and U of A makes sure it's not just place to stop before you get to Nogales.
Good luck and good for you for checking out things.
best- K.

[Patiod]

63. Spent a lot of time in Pheonix and Tucson - love the Congress!

First place I took the SO when I was showing him around was the Cup Cafe. Most of my time there over the years has been spent wandering through cheap motels in early February, buying lapis or turquoise or amythyst......we'll have to head back there and explore Sabino canyon and some of the other cool places. We spent some time in Tombstone, and one of the bartenders was saying that he can't deal with a big city like Tucson. Ack! Big city?

We had way more fun in the Tombstone/Bisbee area then anyone has a right to, but there are some serious Wingnuts in Tombstone. We also got involved in the mayor's race there, but that's a WHOLE nother story. Like I said - WAY too much fun.

You folks certainly have Pheonix nailed - my friends have lived in Goodyear since there was nothing out there, and I was appalled that they live with walls around their yard! There's just not that same sense of community as I'm used to here in the East. They like it that way, but it would drive me nuts. Also, the Phoenix area is expanding so fast that Goodyear isn't really "outer ring" anymore - every time I visit, there's less and less open space.

As for the downtown, there's just not really any there there (to coin a phrase).

[Neshanic]

67. Republicans run out of Tucson...Episode 2.37

http://www.thehighchaparral.com/ep237.htm

[rene moon]

68. I am from Tucson, born and raised

Still living here.

Tucson has grown leaps and bounds in the last 20 years. The foothills, NW and NE side is typically where most of the Republicans live. And they live in their own little world. Most of them dont venture past the University of Arizona, which is in mid-town. Too scary for them---its where the "brown people" live.

But we are a fairly progressive city. We do have troubles with traffic--no highways, except I-10. When the city planners built this town, they didnt think anyone would live all the way down here. It's hot and fairly south.

But alas, people keep moving here and ruining my town!

My family has been here for several generations. The largest minority is Mexican-Americans, with a high level of Mexican and Central American immigrants.

There is one great representative in the US House of Representatives, Raul Grijalva. He's very progressive---he's great---www.house.gov/grijalva


P.S. I was just in Vegas this past weekend and I dont know if I could live there---it's just too much!

[Neshanic]

69. Tucson is the front runner for progressives.

Went to school there and it was fun, but odd little place. If you like skiing in April on a mountain that looms over the city, magnificent summer thunderstorms, and bizzaro news items it's your town. Wilbur the Wildcat mascot was arrested for thowing beer cans at a hockey game, a pony would graze on the street two houses down, pot shows up as the biggest allergen on some days,observatory demonstrations, creepy U of A library sex antics, great hiking, a mountain south of town that has insane beautifull canyons, lagging left lights, and swamp coolers that take the place of airconditioning, giving the air the sweet aroma of a ripe Koi pond.

All in all a great place, but mystifing to Phoenicians without exception.