Look at this kid play the guitar!

[Fuzz]

http://users.telenet.be/w_evr/Malchonka1.wmv

yikes.

[matcom]

1. what is he 12?????????

:wow:

kid. grow your hair, put on some spandex and become a BILLIONAIR before your old enough to drink!

:wow:

[SheepyMcSheepster]

2. yikes is right!

wow, i wonder how long he has been playing, those are some severe chops.

[Zuni]

3. too bad he has gone to the dark side

he is playing yngwie crap.

I saw a 13-14 year old at a blues show once, with his mom and dad, playing with adults---playing real blues. This kid was playing hot jazz licks up and down the guitar like he was Mike Bloomfield or some shit--when they did "You Call it Stormy Monday" and "The Thrill is Gone", this kid took extended jazz solos on his Les Paul (his parents must be really encouraging---this was a top shelf Gibson LP Standard in a sunburst finish)that were jaw dropping. One of the best guitarists I have ever seen. :wow:

[ET Awful]

8. It wasn't JUST Yngwie

there were also echoes of Vai, Van Halen, and a few others.

He's just very derivative, nothing truly original going on. Give him a few years to develop a unique style.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Can You Do That, Zuni?

I can. I'm a shredder and not ashamed of it in any way. But, my experience is that many guys slam that style but they can't do it on a bet!

Now, if someone has those chops and chooses to play in a different style, that's great. But, far too often guys demean someone else's technique and style when they're incapable of making the decision to play that way anyway, simply because they can't.

That doesn't make it the "dark side". It's just a stylistic choice. Me, i'm sick and tired of white blues guys. I live only 55 miles from Chicago. If i want to hear blues guitar, i'll go hear Buddy Guy. I don't need to hear another suburban Allman Brothers or Stevie Ray fan play the blues. Yawn!

If you can play like that, i applaud you. And good for you if you've adopted a style that doesn't require it, even though you've got the skills to play anything you choose. But, i'm just wonderin'. . .
The Professor

[Zuni]

18. no I can't

I cannot shred, nor have I ever wanted to. It is a style of grotesque excess, and masturbatory ego stroking. It is not remotely enjoyable to listen too. It is the worst thing to happen to guitar playing since van Halen first tried his tremolo bar.

I mainly a bass player when I play with other musicians, and i am a better rhythm guitar player than a soloist.

And I don't play "suburban Allman brothers" or "Stevie Ray Vaughn" crap, either.
Nor will I shred, or ever even try it, even if I could play that fast. I have no desire to play arcane scales and modes at 350 mph over a one note bass line and a stagnant drum track.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. You Obviously Understand My Point

Thanks.
The Professor

[tigereye]

45. oh no!

now you're calling Stevie Ray Vaughn crap! My heart is broken! ;)

:spank:

sorry Prof. That was for Zuni...

[StopTheMorans]

20. I can shred, and I still think it sucks

how's that?

[ProfessorGAC]

21. So, Having Skills Sucks?

Interesting. Why did you bother to develop the level of technique and musical understanding necessary if those skills suck? Just wasting time, or what?

Did bebop suck? How about Mozart? Lots of notes and fast continuous legato runs are systemic to both of those, and lots of folks criticized the beboppers and Mozart for it. So, great technique and lots of notes suck no matter what?

I don't get the criticism of it at all. You don't like it because it takes too much skill? I know why i don't like certain types of music. (For instance, i don't care for country because it's rhythmically static. There's a beat, but little rhythm.) But, i don't say it all sucks, and a guy like Junior Brown will still get my compliments. Vince Gill, too. I don't want to play like that, but i sure wouldn't say they suck.

Maturity is a skill learned, not merely endowed by age, i guess.
The Professor

[StopTheMorans]

25. thanks for the line on maturity; i appreciate it

it's not that i don't like the music because it "takes too much skill"; when technical profiency becomes more important than a good melody, and when you intentionally make 60 notes do the work of one, i find it to take away from the music and also to lend itself to pretension. just my .02 though; nothing personal.

i bothered to develop those skills because i went to a music school, a bunch of my friends were music majors who were shredders, and i wanted to prove to them that, given time, anyone can shred, but not anyone can come up with original thoughts. yes, maybe my vague post and gratuitous use of the word "sucks" were over the top. 26 years immature and counting...

on edit: my school wasn't only a music school; i went for history

[ProfessorGAC]

28. I Get It

And i apologize for the maturity thing. Your reply to me was on the chippy side, so i retaliated. I shouldn't have.

We will agree to disagree on the "60 notes doing the work of one". Since there is no way to prove that the intent of the player would have been satisfied by only one note, that is strictly subjective and in the ear of the beholder. It would be a pointless discussion for anyone to have to say "See, i just played one note and that said more than your 60." Then i'd reply, "Prove it." Neither of us could prove what's better. We could only prove they're different.

I am trained as a jazz piano player, in the Monk/Tyner mold. So, my natural inclination is to play at high speeds with lots of linearity. When i started playing guitar, i didn't want to be a jazz guitar player. I wanted to rock. But, my background in music led me to shredder and fusion styles. Yeah, i know it's a million miles an hour.

But, i've found that i can also slow down if the song calls for it. And, many people who criticize it have never actually listened carefully enough to hear the melodic obligatoes that people like Satch and Vai play. They assume that EVERYTHING is the high speed trickster stuff. They would, of course, be assuming incorrectly. Even Yngwie plays slowly now and then. (And i'm not his biggest fan. The songs are too ponderous for my taste.)

Like anything else, the ability to do it is one thing, and the ability to pick one's spots a different thing. This kid in the video was obviously doing a solo spot (albeit far too long and rambling) so was he showing off? Sure! That's why he did it, no?

I wouldn't play Crossroads with a jam band and shred on it. That would sound stupid. But, if i get a chance to blow, then i'll shred. (At jam nights, we've done the G3 version of Rockin' in the Free World, and there's room to blow on that one, for sure.)

Sorry again. Nothing personal, here either. But you did acknowledge "sucks" was perhaps too strong a word. So, we agree that it's all a matter of taste and that there is no intrinsic bad or good in the way anyone plays guitar, as long as they have the skills to back up the style they've chosen. (Imagine a guy with no ability to do vibrato playing the blues. Eeeeep!)

Have a good weekend.
The Professor

[StopTheMorans]

41. i agree; have a great weekend yourself.

[tigereye]

46. some folks do beautifully with many notes -

it takes skill to play scales of whatever type, or improvise, and some folks scare or bore everyone to death. Depends on the player.

[progmom]

22. As a non-guitar playing music geek...

I cannot stand shredding. It does seem incredibly self-indulgent. There are similar examples for many instruments - certain saxophonists stand out for me as well. It's an exercises in technique for technique's sake alone. To take your point and turn it around - the only people I know who really dig it are the ones who play that way themselves.
When I worked in an indie record store, almost without fail the customers who came in saying Michael Brecker was the one true saxophone god (or Malmstein/Vai or whomever were the guitar equivalent) were music performance majors.

I guess I prefer to relate to music on a balance of both intellectual and emotional levels. :shrug:

[Blue-Jay]

23. Hey! I was a sax performance major!

*I* never thought Brecker was anything other than a damn fine technician. I was more of a Parker/Adderly/Desmond fan.

[progmom]

26. hey now

I was a saxophonist myself. I didn't say ALL performance majors were that way. I said everyone who stuck their fingers in their ears and chanted "I don't want to hear about Sonny Rollins - Michael Brecker is my King" turned out to be a performance major. Michael Brecker geeks are a subset of performance majors, not the other way around!

:pals:

[ProfessorGAC]

30. I'm Not A Performance Major

Never was. But, i think you haven't listened to enough of Vai or Satch or Tony Macalpine. I say that because you assume that everything is about the fast stuff all the time. That's simply untrue. And, it's not all about technique. The best of the best know when to put the pedal to the floor and when to lay back.

My objection is that being able to shred and knowing how to play music well are not mutually exclusive. There are some here who were clearly making that point. IOW, if you shred, you really can't play. I disagree.
The Professor

[progmom]

37. I'm not sure where I said that it was all about the fast stuff all the...

...time.

But you're right - I decided not to listen to too much Vai and the like. It's just not my cup of tea. :shrug:

And you might be reading the wrong thing into what is being said. No one said that being able to shred and knowing how to play music well are mutually exclusive -- at least that's not how I read it. Just more that there are some of us who find shreddding to be tiresome to listen to.

[ProfessorGAC]

43. I Got The Point Exactly

It's only tiresome if that's all the player does. In which case, their musical ability is in question. The ability to be a good musician and shred aren't mutually exclusive, but can be independent if the player does so much of it that you find it tiresome.

I'll ask you a question i asked earlier to someone else: Do you find Charlie Parker or Diz Gillespie or Coltrane tiresome? There aren't many forms of music in which flurry after flurry of notes is part and parcel moreso than bebop. Me, that's my favorite subgenre of jazz. But, just like what i was saying, those guys knew when to play legato and casually, but when they wanted to burn, they did, because they could. Listen to Coltrane's Jupiter Variations sometime. Continuous streams of notes for LONG periods of time. Absolutely brilliant though. Then, Favorite Things is quite the opposite. But, two different albums. He could do both. But, if he didn't have mad skills, he could not have done the burn stuff.

That's my point. Shredding is not per se bad or good. It's just a tool.
The Professor

[tigereye]

48. yes!

"But, if he didn't have mad skills, he could not have done the burn stuff."

I remember seeing Dorothy Donegan once, boy was she on fire. She was at a MAry Lou WIlliams tribute with several other women piano folk. She was very flashy, cape, etc. but she had the chops and credibility to get away with it. I still remember how blown away Marian McPartland was by her ( and not necessarily in a good way) on Piano Jazz one time.

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Marian McPartland?!?!?

I took a one week master class with her back in the early 70's. (Up in Rochester, Minnesota. (I'm guessing in 1972, but i don't remember the exact year.)

That was a surprise to see you bring her up.
The Professor

[progmom]

54. I looooooove Marian.

She calls me every once in awhile - she's hilarious. Swears like a sailor!

[ProfessorGAC]

56. Gee.

Ask her if she remember that 15 or 16 year old from the Chicago area 30+ years ago. I'm sure i made that big an impression! Yeah, right!

BTW: Now that i think of it, i think that master class may have been in Philly. I think the Rochester one was Gil Evans.

The Professor

[tigereye]

58. ah cool!

I saw her play at the Mary Lou tribute, and was very impressed. I try not to miss her show. I love that she swears - what a great living bit of history she is.

DId you ever hear the Piano Jazz where Don Byron said he wanted to hang out with her since she was so cool?

Have you interviewed her, Pmom? That would be awesome.

[progmom]

61. i interviewed her for a print piece i did on the ellington centennial

for my non-radio job. :hi:


on edit - and i did hear the osby piano jazz, and it was what made me forgive him for what he said to a friend of mine when he was touring with her.

[tigereye]

57. very nice lyrical skills

great radio show, and very funny. There is a wonderful pic (titled One night in Harlem I think), of many of the NY jazz greats of the 40s/50s. She and Mary Lou (sadly) are two of very few women represented.

I think McPartland is in her 80s? She is a really cool woman. Have you heard her show on NPR? (since you said you trained as a jazz pianist.)

:)

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Yeah, A Few Times

I don't listen to much radio at home. We've got the digital music deal on our cable, so when i listen to music i mostly listen to that. Rock and jazz, and classic soul are mostly what i listen to, and my wife makes me listen to soundscapes with her. (Soothing i guess, but not much to grab onto musically.)

She has got to be in her 80's, because she was definitely older than my mom back when i got to go to that class and my mom is in her early 70's.
The Professor

[progmom]

62. she is 87, i think

edit - when i want to talk to her, i try to make sure to call when i know she won't be at home. she is often a little discombobulated when i reach her, but is always sharp as a tack when she calls me back.

[Zuni]

71. hold on

Mike Bloomfield could play as fast as any shredder, but his style is fantastic. I love listening to that.

I am saying that the shred-style is lifeless and bland. I honestly cannot see why ANYONE except the guitarist being recorded could enjoy listening or playing that stuff. I am not ripping on technical ability, but criticizing on taste merits.

[tigereye]

47. yikes that's just sad

how could anyone not want to hear about Sonny Rollins... or any seminal/innovative jazz player? :shrug:

The bass player in my punk band was a sax guy who loved jazz and all types of alt. music. HE had been to music school. I learned a lot about wonderful jazz players from him. And the fusion guys (some with a great level of skill nonetheless) were just not his favorites.

[NoSheep]

72. Is "shredding" what I call noodling-or "guitar weenie-style"?

I go nuts when I'm in a place and there's a band and the poor drummer, bass player etc just set up the guitar player to do endless guitar solos showing off the player's dexterity etc. It's masturbation on the worst level. I aint gettin' nothin' out of it!

[asthmaticeog]

27. That's a bullshit argument.

You don't have to be a chef to know when your food tastes like ass.

BTW, I can shred when called upon to do so, and I fucking hate it, I refuse unless there's a good joke in it. If it's such a big deal, how come so many 15 year olds can do it?

[ProfessorGAC]

32. LOL!

That's funny. I didn't say someone didn't have the ability to like or dislike it. But, "sucks" or "dark side" are value judgements to which i object. I'll put my ability to discern whether my own ideas are sound against anyone else. I don't care or expect everyone to appreciate every note i play, but i know whether the ideas were good or not and whether i executed them poorly or well.

It's not an argument by the way. It was a question. There's a pretty big difference. But, speaking of that: It's not a bullshit argument to suggest that just because you don't want to play thway, it sucks?

Shredding is not intrinsically good or bad. It's a skillset. If that's all one does all the time, then it will not be music. But, picking one's spots is the issue. But, if you don't have the skillset, you can NEVER pick the spots.

Lastly, don't condescend. There aren't that many 15 year olds that can do it, and you know it. They might be able to play a couple phrases really fast, but they aren't concatenating it into logical musical thoughts. Shredding isn't the tapping and speed. It's being able to do it musically. Otherwise, they're just excercises. That's why some of the shredders are the best of the best, and the others are just out there.
The Professor

[asthmaticeog]

38. Your points are well taken except for one:

"It's not a bullshit argument to suggest that just because you don't want to play thway, it sucks?"

I think you got it backwards there. People don't want to learn to play that way because they decided they think it sucks beforehand.

[ProfessorGAC]

42. A Fair Cop

Yeah, i worded that badly. What i meant was that since you choose not to play that way, it sucks for anyone else to do it. It just a matter of taste, no?

And, it is a fact, that in order to be able to do anything, in any style, at a high level, the skills need to be well refined. I think you agree about that too!

Have a great weekend.
The Professor

P.S. - Boy, i sure stirred the pot on this topic, didn't i?

[Susang]

69. You, stirred up the pot?

Outrageous! I refuse to believe it! :P

:hi:

[tigereye]

49. hey -

don't fence with a man who uses the word " concatenating!" ;)

[tigereye]

44. so, who was it Zuni?

sounds cool.

[MemphisTiger]

4. He might be good for session work

but will probably not make a living on stage unless he get's alot better looking real quick

[ET Awful]

7. Nonsense.

Some of the best guitarists ever are ugly as hell.

[MemphisTiger]

13. However, there is not a great call for that style of playing

anymore. The 80's are over. He's only 12, he has alot of changing to do. He does have mad talent though. I wish I could be a steady musician with session work.

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Skills Are NEVER Over

With that skill level and technique, the kid can play anything he wants. He's CHOOSING to do this right now. Later he may choose to do something else, and he'll be able to.

There is no substitute for skills and he obviously has the passion to work hard enough to be able to do that.
The Professor

[MemphisTiger]

16. That's true. He has the skills like some kind of freaky

child prodogy. I wish him only the best.

[XNASA]

31. But there is a substitute for skill. It's called......

...being Brian Eno.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. He's Got Mad Skills

Put him behind a recording console and he'll show ya! His skills are getting his vision onto media.
The Professor

[XNASA]

35. True. But he's also a wonderful musician.

And he has practically no skills as a musician.

[tigereye]

50. hey hey hey!

don't make me come over there! ;)

[XNASA]

55. Wassamatta?

Eno admits that he can't really play anything. And that he's a better artist for it.

That's all I'm sayin'. I'm an Eno-geek!!!

http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/

[tigereye]

59. oops

teasing, I kind of thought you were an Eno freak. THat's why I was sooo confused. :cry: :silly:

[johnnie]

5. Wow

He is a little mechanical right now, but the "feel" will come. Pretty impressive I have to admit.

[ET Awful]

6. Pretty impressive.

Give him a little time to develop his own style and I'll be even more impressed. Right now it seems like he's trying too hard to copy those who came before instead of expanding on it.

He's skilled as hell, just not experienced enough yet to be truly original.

[Mnemosyne]

9. Reincarnation of...?!!! Wow! n/t

[Bread and Circus]

10. I play guitar and that kid has some technical talent.

I am a fan of that "kind" of "music" in some respects as I like Steve Vai, Malmsteen, Van Halen, and Randy Rhoades and I can tell you it is extremely hard to pull off what he did. He makes it looks effortless. He may be another Kenny Wayne Shephard (of a different stripe) and certainly seems to be prodigious. The problem I have w/ all that is his apparent lack of taste and tone. Hopefully he will have an artistic birth to match his technical prowess (or maybe I he has more to share than what I am seeing). But either way, he's about 5,000 times better than I ever was.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. Kid's Got Skills!

I play in that style too, so i am most impressed with his command of the techniques and i'm really impressed with the articulation for someone playing fast. Lots of guys play fast and it's all slop. (Think Jimmy Page.)

This kid is going to be a stud!
The Professor

[LastKnight]

12. yea, hes good.

give him 5 years... he will be a 100 times better... hes just so technical and mechanical-like now... but as others have mentioned... the feel will come.

hes still pretty damn good, though.

-LK

[Atlas Mugged]

17. Take all the little kids.....

that are being force fed golf lessons and multiply it by 1,000,000. That'll give you a rough figure of the guitar prodigies under the age of puberty. I've been to enough blues festivals and they routinely drag out some astonishingly young child doing Eddie Van Halen or BB King runs (I only use those two for an example of range). I've heard of the same thing happening routinely at Country Music festivals.

Some years ago Lisa Robinson gave an interview about the (then) current state of music. She was, quite frankly, disgusted by even the most technically talented of the chart toppers of the time. She gave a very interesting explanation of her lack of interest in the newer bands. The older bands (Stones, Beatles, Animals, Kinks, Underground) were completely discouraged by their parents to pursue music, but did it out of passion, often living in squalid conditions but happy to be doing what they loved. Children of the 70's, 80's and onward are typically given lessons, top of the line instruments and something unheard of for real rock & rollers: stage parents. When asked about motivation, even for new groups as far back as the 70's, when rock had become a steady industry, the usual response was "money and chicks". So much for musical passion.

Now, I'll bore you with my own observation. The 50's saw the birth of rock and roll. It was a grass roots movement that flourished under renegade DJs. The 60's gave us the British Invasion, the San Francisco sound and cultural revolution. An important thing to note here: the fans invented the look and supported the bands outright. They did their own tie-dyes, altered their own jeans, whatever. By the time the "look" was available to the masses via mass merchandising, the "look", as well as the movement, was seriously OVER. Same with glitter; the stars created a look (buying custom made stuff from Carnaby Street, etc.), the fans ran with it on their own way before you could buy the stuff. Kids that I knew back then created all their own clothes and looked amazing. Then it fell apart and became cheesy when it became commercially available. Think of Tony Orlando donning a glitter rip off of Elton John/David Bowie. If you didn't witness that spectacle (there's a pun lurking there...) consider yourself lucky.

Move on to the end of the 70's with the surge of Punk. Consumer demand created the bands, the look could not be purchased (with the exception of hot beds of style, but it was all made on the premises anyway) and the fans of the movement created the look with safety pins, razor blades and home piercings. By the middle of the 80's you could buy any of this (including black lipstick) at any supermarket chain.

Early 80s: New Wave. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Late 80's. Musical/style stagnation again. Grunge. Homemade look purchased at Goodwill, grassroots movement. Mid 90's, buy the look at WalMart.

Late 90's: Nothing. Zip, zero, nada. Before anyone starts an argument, Eminem and his kind are vocalists; they may as well be Bobby Darin in this context. And, yes, I've heard Flavor Flav play the piano; it only enforces my point. Same with Boy "Bands" and Britney/Christina/J.Low.

Conclusion: Corporate America wins.

[tigereye]

51. dunno

that's a pretty cynical reading.

As a punk denizen/player in a few bands in the late 70s and well into the 90s, I saw a lot of really cool musical and artistic creativity fueled by the apathy and excess of mid-late 70s dinosaur rock and bland politics and then by Reagan's scary politics - none of it was commercial, in fact it was extremely uncommercial, and this continued (at least here in Pittsburgh) well into the 80s. There is still a lot of anticorporate music and radio here.

I don't think corporate America really ever WINS as long as folks continue to make alternative art and music and don't really care much about selling it. In fact, scary folk like Reagan and Bush 2 are, sadly, good for art and culture.

[SarahB]

24. Cool!

My 7 year old son just started guitar lessons. He loves it and has been asking to do it for over two years now, but we finally thought he was ready. He's the creative type, so I hope it ends up being a good outlet for that. I think anything a kid does should be self-motivated and something they enjoy. Seems to be the case here. :)

[tenshi816]

68. My 13 year old son started guitar lessons at 7

He's still at it - can shred, but chooses not to, or not too often, because it's not to his taste. Nathan currently has a keen interest in 60s music, just lately the Kinks, before that the Beatles, Stones and particularly the Who (he idolizes Pete Townshend). Because his devoted mommy also feels passionately about music, there's an extensive CD and vinyl collection of many different musical genres right here at home for him to pick and choose from.

It's great fun tracking Nathan on his musical odyssey. Next year at school he begins serious music study for his GCSEs here in England, and he hopes eventually to study music at university and pursue it as a career. Also, in addition to the guitar he has been learning piano and bass and is begging for both a banjo and saxophone. What began almost as a whim has turned into a way of life for him.

So, good luck to your boy. I hope both you and he enjoy it as much as we do. It's been a wonderful adventure for us, and I love seeing my son care about something this deeply.

[XNASA]

29. There's nothing wrong with whacking off that much when you're 12.

Now when your 25, 30, 40 and beyond......then you're in trouble.

[Blue-Jay]

33. Bahahahahahaha!

:spray:

[cleofus1]

36. hurmmmm

very boring....

a whole bunch of potential...

but i wanted something more...like some sort of coherance...

[DS1]

39. Booor-freakin-ing

Reminds me of Steve Vai, certainly talented, but nothing beyond repeating tired scales. Put some fucking soul into it.

[ProfessorGAC]

53. DS! The Kid Is 12!

He'll learn.
The Professor

[Fuzz]

40. I agree with many on the thread that the kid has no soul

but most at that age don't. I posted it because it it's not something you see everyday. :)

His finger work is impressive, but what he played actually sucked, imho. If the kid had a mentor with some soul who could help him pull out what's inside him, if anything, he could really go somewhere. Otherwise, just another slasher.

[tsakshaug]

63. good

but can he play "Smoke on the Water"?
he needs to develop a "guitar solo face" when he hits the high notes.
:applause:

[leftofthedial]

64. really awful solos played very fast by a young kid

technique-wise, he has a great start on becoming a good guitarist.

[Dukkha]

65. He's on the right track

He's very technically proficient now so as he matures artistically his songwriting and music producing skills will not suffer from bad musicianship.

in the 90's we saw a fundamental shift of guitarists who were rock stars writing catchy tunes but their skills on the instrument were juvenile at best. They just didn't want to take the time to learn to play. The Edge is a good example. His early u2 stuff was total shit musically. By Actung Baby he really honed his playing and did some of his best guitar work.

[Ezlivin]

66. I'm throwing my guitar away

Not actually, but at 48 years old and having taken up guitar only two years ago, child prodigies like that just make me want to give up my pitiful plinking.

A few notes on the kid:

• His face shows very little expression (a la Derek Trucks);


• He knows his scales and modes,but


• Does he know his chords? :)

When I see a child prodigy I think, "Yeah, you can do that, but can you drive a car?" Or "have sex with a woman" or "order a cold beer" or really whatever I can think of that the damned kid can't do yet.

This is my guitar...


...And before you make fun of it, I have to tell you that I'm in a wheelchair and that limits what I can handle.

:headbang:

[XNASA]

67. WAIT!! I'll take it!!

:yourock:

[enigmatic]

70. Hate shredding...

Despise it, actually; bloodless playing, for the most part. I'll take a "feel" player every single day of the week.