I was in the GATE program in high school and no, I dont feel bad about it

[rene moon]

I was just reading the other thread and I had to post. In AZ, gifted and talented is call "Gifted And Talented Education" (GATE).

My school district had the GATE program at my junior high and I desperately wanted to be in the program. I already knew that i was
different from the rest---bored out of my mind, things coming too easy for me, labeled "too creative", etc. I also had/have ADD, so that didn't help.

Teachers thought I was lazy and the kids thought I was weird.

I had excellent grades except in math, where I am hopeless---though I did well in Geometry but not in Algebra or Trig.

So, I was put into GATE when I got to high school (all 4 years and consisted of English, history, government, art--Math was not included) and let me say it was a godsend. I felt like I had finally belonged somewhere. I was also so ahead of the other kids and ridiculed ruthlessly. The kids in the program where like me and I thrived.

As an adult, I am grateful for the experience though I still get bored very easily and have jumped around in careers because of it.
I can never concentrate enough---it's awful---I am so antsy.

I didn't find out until later that the GATE program was listed under Special ED, so maybe that's why other kids made fun of us even more---who knows.

For those who weren't in such a program, I never thought I was better and really, neither did any of my classmates--we were just glad to have found each other. I am still friends with a few today and we are all still weird in some way.

For the record, I went to a public school and was the only Latina girl in the program.

[4_Legs_Good]

1. Alls I know is that I felt like sh*t because I wasn't allowed into the

program (MGM, ELP and then GATE). The fact that it's not elective and is exclusionary sucks completely for those of us who want to excel but who didn't do well enough on the test in 2nd grade to "merit" it.

I had a brother and a sister who were in Gate and boy they were smart. I, on the other hand, was an idiot.

Poor me! Time to go fill out my application for Hamburger U.

The GATE class in my High School was *VERY* exclusive, and they were the jewel in the eye of the principal. It was awful, AWFUL to those of us who were excluded.

Naw, I'm not bitter at all.

david

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. I think it depends on how they're chosen

As I said in John Kleeb's thread, I was in gifted programs in two different schools: one where the selection was on the basis of intellectual talent, and one where the selection was on the basis of social standing, no poor kids need apply.

The first one was actually stimulating, and it was one of the few times in my life before college when I had friends I could really relate to.

The second had a majority of "Heathers."

It's all in the selection. If the school lets socially prominent parents insist that their little mediocrity is in the program, then you'll have a new set of snobs. If you base it on teachers' assessments of which kids are way ahead of the rest and need extra intellectual stimulation, then you have heaven for the kids who are selected, because they can be themselves without constantly being accused of being nerds and bookworms.

It would be even better, though, if we followed the examples of Europe and Japan and made school more challenging for everybody, as well as creating an atmosphere where the emphasis was on academics and the arts instead of on social life and sports.

[4_Legs_Good]

3. I think if they had opened the program to anyone who wanted to try it

it would have worked for me, even if I failed. I don't like being excluded because of "intellectual talent" as measured by some test. Sure I might lack some I.Q. points, but perhaps I can make up the difference with hard work.

That's really all I'm saying, and my major beef with the program, you can have invitations to all the supra-geniuses, but, at least in the later grades (Jr. High/High School), you should also allow people to elect in to the program. If they can't keep up, then they're out. Either way a valuable life lesson is learned.

david

[WeRQ4U]

4. This isn't workable. There has to be criteria.

Every parent just knows that his or her son or daughter is a genius. If they aren't chosen for the program, something is wrong with the method of chosing.

Now, that being said, my experiences with TAG or LEAP as it was called in my home town, were all done before high school, based on IQ and standardized testing. The programs you want are in high school and junior high school. A little more leniance is probably OK at that later stage, but is having a child fail in an advanced class, simply because he or she's parents are certain they are geniuses, make it any better than not being chosen at all? I highly doubt it.

[4_Legs_Good]

12. This every parent stuff is a BS argument

I'm not talking about parents wanting their kids in GATE (I have no idea what the original thread was, so I'm only talking about this one), I'm talking about kids themselves wanting in.

I'm saying any kid who wants in and is willing to apply himself/herself to try to keep up and challenge him/herself can probably do it. If s/he cannot, then they can be kicked out.

And, yes, I think failing in an advanced class IS better than never knowing whether or not you could have succeeded.

Just my take. I hate elitism, particularly elitism based on "natural ability".

david

[redqueen]

5. The test is the try-out.

In sports, you go to a try out, and if you don't rank, you don't get in. Same with these programs... the test is the try-out.

They don't let people who can't run fast try to run at a few track meets, do they?

[WeRQ4U]

6. Exactly!!

And just like in these programs, the parents of the kids in sports all think there is something wrong with the system because their kid didn't get in.

Some even beat up the coaches for it.

[redqueen]

8. Are any adults still bitter they didn't get to play for the team?

That's what I wonder.

[WeRQ4U]

9. You bet there are.

I know people that still carry a grudge for not being picked. They hold that grudge against the system and coaches at the time as well as myself and the other kids who actually MADE it onto the teams.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. But our society doesn't question elitism in sports

Of course we're going to buy the best equipment for our athletes and treat them as young gods and goddesses and feature them in the city newspaper and hold awards days at the end of the year where all the letters and trophies are passed out.

Oh, but the intellectual elites have to be ground down and ridiculed, because otherwise they'll think it's a good thing to be smart, instead of being the shameful badge of dishonor that every freeper knows it to be.

Imagine two situations. In one, Junior makes the all-state football team. You can bet that Mom and Dad are going to brag all around the town, and everyone is going to congratulate them sincerely and think about what a wonderful kid Junior is. Junior will get an article devoted to him in the local paper for sure, most likely with a large photograph.

In the other, Junior gets one of the top ten scores in the state on the Putnam Math Exam, a real accomplishment. His parents won't bother to brag, because who's ever heard of the Putnam except a bunch of geeks? Even if they do brag, most people will react with a polite and uninterested, "Oh, that's nice," but think, "What a bunch of intellectual snobs." They will think that Junior must be some kind of nerd. Junior will be lucky if he gets two column inches on the back page.

If you object to gifted programs that require tests to enter, then you should equally object to sports teams that require try-outs. Why not just let everyone play?

Both are equally elitist, yet one is in line with America's dumbed-down culture and the other isn't.

[redqueen]

15. Thank you.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's a double-standard.

[4_Legs_Good]

22. This whole sports thing is apples and oranges

IMO.

Still, I don't think that people who are in these programs are looked down upon. Sure academic achievers aren't hailed as town heroes as much as sports ones, but that's hardly the point.

But maybe I come from a different place than you because in my life people who were intelligent and achievers were never ground down and ridiculed unless they were also wholly socially inept.

But anyway, sports heroes are more heroic because sports are a lowest common denominator event. Everyone understands them, everyone "can" enjoy them. Only a few people can enjoy a Putnam math bee because most people don't understand that level of math.

However, EVERYONE respects a doctor, lawyer, scientist, professor, historian, etc., a lot more than they respect the burned out HS Football quarterback who is now managing the local KFC.

david

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. So why are schools encouraging the "lowest common denominator"?

:shrug:

We went to very different schools. The smart kids had three choices: 1) accept that they were going to be targets for bullies until graduation, 2) pretend to be stupid in order to fit in, 3) keep quietly making good grades but "redeem" themselves by joining a sports team or becoming a cheerleader, in which case their intelligence was forgiven.

[WeRQ4U]

28. Sounds like my school...

I chose number 3. But only because I had the inherent ability to do so. I don't care what anyone esle says. #3 is not always an option simply if you "work at it".

[4_Legs_Good]

29. Granted physical attributes are what make you popular

whether it's being on the Football team or being a cheerleader or being the "hottest chick" at the school.

In my school you had various different groups, I guess. You had your jocks - universally respected for their abilities but secretly ridiculed for being stupid (minus the one or two who were also geniuses), you had your GATE kids who were the apple of the principal's eye and got all the advantages, and you had everyone else, the prols.

Anyway, I don't think that it's necessarily the schools that are promoting the lowest common denominator, it's the towns, particularly those (like the one I live in now) where the most exciting cultural even there is is the HS football game.

And I want to make it very clear that I agree 100% with you on academics; I think it's rediculous how much attention is paid to sports vs. academics and arts. I wish it were different more than anything.

david

[4_Legs_Good]

14. Yes but making it onto sports teams is usually the result of HARD WORK

Not of inherent ability. Everyone trying out for sports has the inherent ability (well, okay maybe not EVERYONE, but 95%). The thing that tips the scales is that you worked the hardest to hone that ability.

david

[redqueen]

16. Hahahaa...

:rofl:

Wait, that IS a joke, right?

[WeRQ4U]

19. You can't be serious.

A person is either inherently coordianted or not. They are inherently athleticly built, or not. They are inherently tall or short. They are inherently competitive or not. They are inherently blessed with hand-eye coordination or not.

SUre, you have to work hard to excell in sports. But I would say that your numbers are exactly the opposite of what reality would say. I would bet 95% of professional or "successful" athletes are blessed with athletic talent and maybe 5% overcame their lack thereof by hard work.

[4_Legs_Good]

24. I'm not talking about *professional* athletes, I'm talking about

High School athletics. I'm talking about JV volleyball! Geesh, have you ever met ANYONE who could not make the JV volleyball team if they tried?

I guess I just don't believe in the all important Intelligence Quotient.

david

[WeRQ4U]

27. I have met PLENTY of kids who could not make the JV volleyball team...

Not even if they worked for weeks to try and do it. Why is it so hard to imagine a sect of people that are uncoordinated, unathletic, slow, short etc. There are people like that out there. The way you describe things makes that group of people seem like freaks because it's just so damned easy to do. Well, I have news for you... it's not.

[4_Legs_Good]

30. Weeks?

Forget weeks, hows about years? Years training for JV volleyball and being unable to make the team? Come on. Even if that is the case, are there really people who cannot train for years and make ONE sport? Any one???

Okay, maybe I'm just as uncoordinated as I am stupid, but I really do believe that didn't make the JV anything team because I didn't try. I didn't make the band because I didn't practice. I didn't make GATE because I'm a freaking idiot.

david

[WeRQ4U]

33. Who trains for years to be in JV volleyball?

Nobody, it's JV volleyball. Therefore those kids that are inherently better athletes make the team, and those that would have had to work for "years" to make the team, but did not, do not make the team. And even if they do make the team after having practiced for "years" to do so, they must have a disadvantage over the other kids who just made the team because they're able to play it naturally.

[4_Legs_Good]

37. I think you're missing my point

which means that they were RIGHT and I shouldn't have been in GATE because I can't make a simple argument properly!!!

:)

Anyway, you're right that nobody trains for years for JV Volleyball, and that if someone did and made the team they would be at a disadvantage. But they would have made the team.

Maybe the kid just loves the shape of the volleyball that much, loves the idea of one day playing on the beach in the local VB club, etc. They *could* hire a trainer, exercise, eat properly, and in all other ways work their ass off to make the team. But there is a way they can do it.

With GATE, at least in my experience, there was NO way to enter the program once you failed the 2nd grade test. You were excluded, and I KNOW for a fact that I could have done all the work that the people who were in GATE did in High School. Maybe in the lower grades where it's somehow more inherent ability, I woulda failed, but in HS?

Gah, I should stop being so bitter and go watch some TV.

david

[WeRQ4U]

46. Nah, just sounds like your program was run poorly,

Here, have a beer. :toast:

JRG

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. I wouldn't have been able to make JV volleyball

because I have lousy eye to hand coordination. The ball is never where I think it is. I'm also a complete flop at tennis, baseball, and every other sport that requires you to hit something.

I took tennis lessons once. The coach kept telling me that I wasn't keeping my eye on the ball. The problem was, I was keeping my eye on the ball, but my brain was processing it wrong.

No amount of "hard work" can overcome this neurological quirk.

No amount of hard work can make a tight muscled person into a gymnast or a skinny little person into a football linebacker or a person with a certain kind of muscle ratio into a sprinter.

I would be considered childish and petulant if I moaned and groaned about how I'll never make it to Wimbledon because no one ever let me onto a tennis team. But if I had tried out for a tennis team, no one would have thought that the tennis coach was being "elitist" for rejecting me.

Oh, and your example of the band? Some people really are so musically untalented that they never could make it into a band, no matter how they practiced. Same with choir: some people (although fewer than we think) are tone deaf and cannot make their voices produce the required notes, no matter how hard they work.

Not making it into the gifted program doesn't mean you're stupid, although maybe your parents made you feel that way? It means you're average, not gifted.

[LeftyMom]

40. Probably me.

There were some sports in high school I could have made if I wanted, just because interest was so low anybody with a pulse and four functioning limbs could get on the team.

I still would have made an ass out of myself, because I'm small, slow and uncoordinated. I could have done what some of the other smart kids did and signed up to be towel manager or scorer or somthing (not for popularity, it counted as athletic experience for college apps, and since the kids at my school ran small, there was often more competition for these positions than the teams themselves) but while it would have rounded out my college apps a bit, taking time away from the extracurriculars I really wanted to be towel washer and ball fetcher appealed even less than finding the sport I was least bad at to muddle through for a season or two.

[xmas74]

47. Really?

I was good enough to make varsity volleyball at a competitive school for girls volleyball. The coach informed me that I was good enough but that I would never be chosen for the team. Why? Because at the age of 14 I had pretty much stopped growing (I was 5'2") while we had girls who were almost 6' even and still growing.
In my school athletics was everything. Short people never had a chance to make a team sport (unless you were a male and a wrestler). I was in GATE and I was a jock (cross country and track). I was also on the drill team. Just to audition for drill team I had to fill out a questionaire explaining how many years of dance I had attended and how many camps I had attended. Many were cut just from the questionaire alone. The only reason why I was given a chance was because the sponsor had watched me in jr high track and knew I was very flexible (so she hoped that maybe I could overcome a lack of dance background-which I did).
At my school, if you didn't have a certain name you were discouraged from participating in school athletics (except for wrestling, track and cross country). GATE was open to all socioeconomic backgrounds. It was purely on merit and anticipated expectations.

[4_Legs_Good]

10. Bologna, utterly

In Football and most of your other sports there are various levels. You got your Varsity, your Junior Varsity and your ol' FroshSoph. I've never ever met anyone who tried out for Football who didn't make it into FroshSoph, and I've known many people who can easily make it onto the Varsity team and then suck shit at it because they don't practice.

I've known tiny guys who simply didn't have the bodies to play in the big games, but who worked their asses off (or on!) and made their way up the ladder to the varsity team. It's also possible to try out every year. For GATE/MGM/ELP, etc. you have one test in 2nd grade, and you're in or out for the rest of your life. No amount of gym time, marathons, training sessions can get you in.

I, quite frankly, don't believe much in inherent ability. I do believe in perserverence and hard work, particularly in the mental arena.

Anyway, I'm just bitter at being a second class student my whole life.

david

[redqueen]

13. No, you test every year. You don't just get in and stay in.

And even once you get in, if you don't keep up with the coursework, you're out.

There's various levels of academic instruction, too. Remedial, regular, and advanced. If you work hard, you can change your status. Same as sports.

Funny... I'm not bitter about being a second-class athlete.

[4_Legs_Good]

17. I never had the opportunity to actively try to get into the program

I'm not bitter about being a 2nd class sports citizen either, but that's because I never wanted to be a 1st classer.

You'll deny me the OPPORTUNITY to even TRY to get into these advanced classes? They were closed, period from the day I got in. If I had petitioned the school board and threatened a law-suit, then maybe, but why not have an opportunity to enter every year by doing a research project, or paper, or whateverthehell.

Ooooh, I forgot it's because you're BETTER than me! It's because God shone down his glorious light on your brain and left mine to fester in the gutter with so many NASCAR viewers.

:oozes bitterness:

david

[redqueen]

18. How did they do it at your school?

At most it's based on test scores.

Your level of bitterness is over the top... are you being sarcastic?

[4_Legs_Good]

26. It's based on IQ test scores taken in the 2nd grade

IIRC. I may be wrong, but it was sometime in elementary school and it was an absolute intelligence test.

OKAY, this doesn't make any sense and is rediculous. I don't know why I'm arguing this. I hung out with most of the people in GATE in HS, and I could have whooped all their asses in mental pursuits, so I don't know why the hell I'm so bitter.

Gah!

david

[redqueen]

43. In my district it was the yearly standardized tests

which gauge students' progress. If you scored above a certain percentile, you were offered a spot in the geek club.

It wasn't even offered when I was in 2nd grade... I started in... 6th I think. (?)

[JohnKleeb]

21. I dont remember a specific test that determined for us

My memory is I admit a little fuzzy but I remember one day these kids left the classroom for some reason and we found out later it was because they were considered gifted and talented. I had to leave the classroom too but it was because I had the whole thing when it came to having a learning disablity, speech threapy, occupational therapy, etc, it wasnt bad for me but the way you were treated in there really gave you an idea like you were different and yes more dumb than the average student. Most people whether they're LD or not dont really understand it, and I will he honest, I dont understand it either, I dont know why I have it, but I do know that the implication that goes with it is that youre more dumb than average. I never openly flaunt it but whenever Ive seeing poeple saying LD means youre dumb, I give hell and to be honest people usually back off since some of these same people who think oh youre LD you msut be dumb are the same people who asked me for the answers to homework.

[4_Legs_Good]

32. Ahhh finally someone on my side

:yourock:

:)

david

[JohnKleeb]

39. No problem

I dont really have a program persay with programs such as these but the name agh the name gets to me because of my own experiences, now of course the funny part is when someone would be bashing LD, I would step in and say well I am LD and its me youre getting the answers to the homework from, that generalyl shuts people up about LD. I also think despite the fact that programs like this have names that po me, theres another thing about the academic experience thats worse and thats the preferential treatment given to the better connected students, popular ones not always athletes but always the person who everyone knows who they are by name.

[lastliberalintexas]

49. Ah, but whether we believe in it or not,

reality has a way of biting us in the ass. There simply are people with inherent abilities. Some of them waste their talents, some of them work it until it's an art form.

Do you really think Tiger Woods or Annika Sorenstam are where they are today based on hard work and practice alone? The talent had to be there for them to hone.

Sadly, no matter how hard I work at it, I would never equal Tiger or Annika. But I'm a damn good test taker with pretty cutting oral argument skills- something I've not seen from them! Ha! :)

It's simply a matter of finding out what your talent is rather than trying to force talent where there is none. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Here's the test

Get a head start. Take it as many times as you want.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3458576

[4_Legs_Good]

34. Wow! That's hard!

I *am* stupid! I got 50% on the first time, but 100% the second time when I applied myself and tried hard to do well.

:)

david

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. You are gifted

Congratulations

[redqueen]

42. No, they use the standardized tests . n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. No not all use those

Some use individualized tests. Some use what we call 'teacher judgement'. Every state has its own standards. Gifted Ed is not mandated by the feds, so there are literally 50 different programs in this country with that many different kinds of standards, admission criteria and curricula.

Here at DU, we use The Color Test to determine giftedness. :)

[JohnKleeb]

51. Thanks for the info on this

I still cant recall being tested, I always thought I was on par with the students in it, I wish i knew the process that went in to labelign someone with a learning disablity, would make me understand those early years of grade school a lot better honestly, i felt so like I was more dumb than everyone else, I know its childish but it was elementary school. I never harbored any resentment to smart people perhaps because I was mistaken for the type a lot.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. To be labeled as LD

you were given a standardized achievement test and an IQ test. Achievement test was probably the Woodcock or WIATT or KTEA (there are several they use, depending on your state) and IQ would have been either WISC or Stanford, depending on your age when they tested you (younger kids are given the WISC). Both would have been administered individually, not to your whole class. The scores were then compared and discrepancies indicate LD. They change the numeric formula all the time but there was probably somewhere around a 15 point discrepancy between your IQ and your achievement. So for example, if your IQ is 100, you would have scored 85 or lower in Reading to be labeled as LD in Reading. If your IQ is 125, your Reading achievement score would have been 110 or below.

Hope that makes sense.

Gifted is completely different because it is NOT included under IDEA (federal special ed law). Not all states even have Gifted Ed programs. And like I said in another post, every state is free to develop its own guidelines for Gifted Ed. But LD programs have federal guidelines.

[JohnKleeb]

53. I was 5 when diganosed with it

ive never been told my actual IQ, told its above average but nothing else. Ive known about having a learning disablity since kindergarten unlike some people who have found out in middle school or even high school.

[tenshi816]

7. Heathers (shuddering now)

I knew a few of those back in the day. I'll probably have uneasy dreams tonight about wearing the "wrong" clothes to school.

I was in a gifted program in high school too and I loved it because inclusion was based on ability, which pretty much excluded the Heathers - Daddy and Mommy couldn't buy the way in for them.

It was such a relief finally to find myself with other kids who actually valued the learning experience for its own sake, and I had some inspiring teachers along the way.

[rene moon]

35. Dude, I just read all your posts

and get over it!

Sorry if you feel "2nd class" but it's really all a moot point now, isnt it?

I was talking about my experience and how it helped me---not to hear you cry about it.

sheesh.

[4_Legs_Good]

38. Shutting up and getting over it

/salute!

david

[Allenberg]

23. I was in GATE, and the experience sucked.

I was pretty lazy and my grades suffered, although I killed tests. Homework just wasn't interesting enough for me, and I got double whammied by teachers who knew I was smart enough to do really well. Fuck 'em all.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Then it wasn't a well-administered GATE program

The homework is supposed to be challenging and creative.

Then again, as a former teacher, I know that some students can't be motivated to jump if you set their shoes on fire.

[redqueen]

44. hehehehehe

:7

I hear you on the motivation thing, LL... in 9th grade my problems at home overtook my love of learning and I floundered... and there is nothing short of addressing my problems at home that anyone could have done to change it.

[xmas74]

45. I was in the same program.

Ours was also called GATE. It started in fourth grade and went through eighth grade. I was also accepted into Duke Universities Talent Identification Program (TIP). The program is only open to the top 3% of standardized test scores (I took the Iowa test in 6th grade). You are requested to take the SAT's in the 7th grade and the scores are sent to them. They also keep track of all of your scholastic achievements through grade 12. I excelled in science, literature and social sciences.
And yes, I was ridiculed for being a member of the program.

[sir_captain]

48. Why'd you start your own thread?

Just out of curiosity...

[rene moon]

54. Because the other one got too long

That's all.

[distantearlywarning]

55. I always had a secret dream

of being a ballet dancer.

Even at age 18, I knew that wasn't going to happen. Want to know why? Because even though I was slim and strong, I also grew C cup breasts at age 14. Oh, and I also have no natural flexibility.

Do I feel a little pang of jealousy every time I see lovely, elegant ballerinas on TV? Yes. Was I a little envious of the girls on dance team at my school? Yes.

DID I GET OVER IT???? Yes. I moved on with my life. I didn't have the natural gifts to do it. And that's ok. I don't have to be a dancer. I can do other things. Like a million people have pointed out, we all have different and valuable things to bring to the world. And I have decided to use mine instead of being angry about the ones I didn't get.

This is just my opinion, of course, but if it were me at age 30 still really, really, really angry and bitter about the ballet teacher telling my mother that I didn't have the right stuff (which happened at a young age, by the way), I think I would seek professional help. Your mileage may vary, however.

ETA: This post is not aimed at JohnKleeb, who seems to be an interesting, intelligent, and healthy person.

[4_Legs_Good]

56. I have a dream too! It's that everyone will be treated equally

and be given their chance to try to excel wherever they want regardless of IQ or cup size! If they fail, so be it!

Oh, but then I'm over it, I forgot. See post 35.

Off to see the therapist, cuz I'm all screwed up.

david

P.S. Sorry for trying to have a conversation on a topic that I think is important.

[JohnKleeb]

57. amen to that

I am not mad that I didnt accepted in to the program, I as Ive said think its a little insulting to be calling those kids who are yes I will admit smarter than the others "gifted and talented" yet people like me and some people I know are "learning disabled" its not a disablity, calling it a disablity only makes you feel more pathetic about it, I know people who in these advanced education programs dont have it easy because brains are picked on but I would rather have had that life in elementary school than that of constantly being pulled out of class and being forced to feel like I was a dummy. I never been picked on for my known smarts either in fact, its been the total opposite, I get a lot of respect for it,