Anti fat hatred I witnessed at work on Friday

[ikojo]

First the backstory....

A Weight Watchers at work group was started at my workplace two weeks ago. Many people of all sizes joined. Not all the fat people joined as is their perogative. I joined and thus far have lost seven pounds but that's not important.

Yesterday afternoon one of the thinner people (Worker B) who joined the group passes a fellow worker (Worker A) who like me is significantly overweight. This co-worker has also had NON WEIGHT related female health problems this year that kept her out of work for two months. Worker A did not join the Weight Watchers at work program.

Worker B says the following as she passes Worker A:
Are you in Weight Watchers?

Worker A: No

Worker B: Well, you should be.

Me: WORKER B!

Worker A: Well, she should be. I am.

Approx. 15-20 minutes later Worker A (the overweight employee) is called into a conference room. Worker B "apologizes" to Worker A and then says, "I only said that to you out of concern for your health. I know you've had health problems and could stand to lose weight. I will not apologize for that."

What a B***h! Now you know why I called her Worker B.

If this person had made an antisemitic or anti black comment she would have been hauled into HR and possibly fired but definitely warned about her comments. I am sure nothing will happen here.

[BlondieK143]

1. Unfortunately, that's one of the nicer things I've heard.

What a complete bitch and may she never know what it's like to be overweight and have to suffer not only physically, but emotionally as well. What an ugly, ugly person.

[ikojo]

2. Speaking of ugly...this same person did have

a face lift earlier this year.

I couldnt' tell any difference between her old face and the expensive face.

[BlondieK143]

8. Thats explains some of it.

Obviously she's not confident enough in herself, so she puts others down to make herself feel better.

[Warpy]

45. Ugly comes through from the inside out

and no plastic surgery can remove it.

Remember Linda Tripp? That "who farted?" expression stayed with her.

[NJCher]

4. payback's a b

People like Wkr B come back as 500-lb'ers.

Cher

[madeline_con]

54. yep...

Karma catches up with them.

[Spinzonner]

3. Boorish behavior that doesn't respect other people's

privacy and dignity is not 'hate'.

[ikojo]

5. Depends on which side of the fence you are on...

For the person who delivered the message, maybe she doesn't hate worker A but I heard it and heard hatred of fat people.

[Spinzonner]

13. So you're capable of reading people's minds ?

Claiming that one can unilaterally determine other peoples' thinking and motives from a single statement - or even multiple ones - is rather prejudicial in its own right - but I would never call THAT hate.

Criticize the inappropriateness of the behavior but don't make claims that aren't supported by any information that you have access to.

[ikojo]

I said I HEARD hate...that's how I took the comment.

Isn't all hate speech basically how the victim (in this case worker A) interprets (thus in your opinion reading the other person's mind) a comment or act?

There is HATRED of fat people in the US but I guess that's OK because being fat in our culture is seen as a moral failing and inability to control oneself.

If Worker B and Worker A were friends in any way shape or form perhaps I would not have heard hate in the comment, but they are not friends. One is an admin to an executive and the other is just a regular employee.

[Spinzonner]

23. You didn't 'hear' hate unless you actually heard words

that constitute hate - which you are not reporting in this thread.

You are INTERPRETING hate into a person and a situation that, as reported, doesn't justify it. Offering unsolicited, even inappropriate, advice is simply not itself a form or expression of hatred.

And no, so-called hate speech isn't completely defined by the way someone interprets or or reacts to it. Otherwise, oversensitive people or even people who don't understand a word or phrase could make valid claims of hate speach where it isn't applicable.

(There was a case several years ago where a person - in a public forum - used the word 'niggardly' and all kinds of people who didn't know the meaning took it to be a racial slur.)

And there's a whole range of attitudes about fat and fat people in society, just like there is about smoking and smokers. And some of it right, some is wrong, and some prejudicial. But it's almost always wrong and lacking in civility to make personal comments to or about individuals in that regard.

But it doesn't automatically constitite hate to do so. You misuse and weaken the word and its meaning and impact when you try and apply it to every circumstance and situation that you find offensive.

[ikojo]

25. Since you do not know me you do not have ANY idea of what

I call hate speech so please do not say I "misuse and weaken the word and its meaning and impact when you try and apply it to every circumstance and situation that you find offensive."

Worker B was hateful toward Worker A. I am fat and felt the hate.

I don't know if you are fat but I have endured these comments my whole life. I know what hate is trust me on that one.

[Spinzonner]

30. You are entitled to live in your own semantic world if you so choose

but what subjective truths you find there are not necessarily subjective truths in other peoples' or objective truths in society at large.

You seem determined to find hate as many places as you can, which is also your right.

[jobycom]

29. No, absolutely not

Hatred has to come from the person making the comment. Let's say Worker A is white and Worker B is black. Worker B looks out the window and says "Damn, the sky is turning white." Worker A thinks this is some form of racist slur (Hey, it's weak, it's the best I could think up on the spur of the moment). Worker B has not said anything remotely hateful, but Worker A has heard hate. That's just a misunderstanding, not hate.

I didn't hear Worker B's tone of voice, and maybe that was enough to justify your anger. And certainly Worker B was way out of line, both for not minding her own business, and for making the assumption that Worker A was defective. But that doesn't mean that Worker B wasn't TRYING to be helpful. Her comments would still be wrong, but there is a big difference between hate and stupidity. Keep in mind how often Worker B has seen television commercials and news reports touting how easy it is to lose weight and how America is "battling the bulge" and all of that crap. And how often news stories focus on weight as a cause of disease and illness. Worker B has been conditioned to think that all people should be thin, and that if they just try hard enough, they would be.

Worker B needs some education, more than crucifixion. Although, as I said, I didn't hear her voice or see her expression--you can hide a lot in your non-verbal communication. So you could be right about her motivations.

But I disagree strongly that hate speech is determined by the hearer and not the speaker. Very strongly. Intention is everything. And those words are not an attack. I've heard racist and sexist attacks in the workplace. I've done my best to get people fired for them (Living in Texas, I've not had much success at it, though.)

I had a friend once whose coworker told him he needed to speak better because he sounded too black. He was furious at first, but as he got to know this coworker, he realized she meant no harm, she was just raised to think that way. They became good coworkers, and talked about race a lot, and the woman learned a lot. This same friend once got fired from another job because something was stolen, and the manager "knew" it had to be him. No insult was made, no specific reference to race was made, but there was no doubt why the manager suspected him. That's hate. There's a big difference.

Again: I'm not defending Worker B. Your anger is justified. I'm just commenting on your comment about hate speech.

[China_cat]

43. And there always will be when you see

things like the new NutriSystem commercial.

"I went from a size -10- (said sneeringly) to a size 4 and I've never been happier".

I've seen pictures of concentration camp victims that looked healthier.

[Lars39]

6. Worker A needs to document this and report it to HR.

Isn't Worker B's comments creating a hostile workplace? :shrug:

[ikojo]

10. I would think so. Worker B is an admin to an

executive in the company. I wonder if more would happen to worker A if she did go to HR. Another worker who sits near me said that if Worker B had said that to her she would have told her off.

Thus the conundrum of a non union workplace in an employee at will state such as Missouri. There is no grievance committee and the only recourse is either Worker A's boss, who clearly heard the comment since both employees were outside his open door or HR, both of whom serve company rather than the employee.

[bertha katzenengel]

7. Worker A should come to my house.

I'd fucking kick her miserable ass into fucking next week. That woman needs to get a fucking clue.

[ikojo]

12. No, it's worker B who is the big ole B***h...

worker A is the one who was insulted about her size. I called the first person I introduced in the story Worker B because the B fits.

[bertha katzenengel]

15. Oh, shit! WORKER B should come along for her ass kicking, not A!!

i meant WORKER B! :blush:

[ikojo]

16. Can I send her to Skittles after you are done

with her?

[bertha katzenengel]

19. Hell, yes.

Skittles will do a better job of it.

[Ready4Change]

9. Was the problem the comment, or the "phrasing."

This is an area I have difficulties with. I think it's very easy for protective policies to get in the way of communications.

So I wonder: Is the problem here the way Worker B phrased her comment? Or is the problem the comment itself?

In other words: Is there any way Worker B could have suggested that Worker A might benefit from joining the program without that comment being found offensive?

[ikojo]

11. Perhaps there is a way Worker B could have phrased her

comment without seeming judgmental and offensive. However, Worker A is perfectly happy and content with herself as she is and does not see the need to change. Worker B and Worker A in no way socialize with one another, ever.

[Ready4Change]

21. Worker B was certainly out of line.

However, it's possible the message sent to B was "Shut up" rather than "Don't be rude."

Granted, if the latter can't be achieved, the former might be an improvement. :)

[noamnety]

52. I don't think there's an inoffensive way to phrase it

It's inappropriate for a coworker to comment on another employee's body shape or size. Period.

It doesn't matter if it's a guy telling a woman they ought to consider getting breast implants (you know, for "their own good"), or a woman telling another woman her waistline is too large.

[BlondieK143]

14. In my opinion -

If she had worded it better and with a better attitude AND the two workers were friends, it wouldn't near as harsh. However, if the two had never spoken before or were mere acquaintances, it was none of her business whatsoever.

[philosophie_en_rose]

38. Could be discrimination based on disability.

A huge HR no no.

The fact that Worker B was commenting on Worker A's participation was because of misconceptions about her health and weight. It doesn't matter what the motivation was. Worker B should have been more sensitive.

If Worker B had said, "Are you joining the synagogue? No? Well, you should." It would have been equally inappropriate.

[hobbit709]

17. I had somebody in a grocery line

tell me once that what I was buying was too fattening and bad for my health.
My response was " I had a health tip for him-You'll live a lot longer if you keep your nose out of other people's business"

[ikojo]

18. GREAT response. Wow! the nerve of some people

This is what happens when a country becomes fascistic about health..

First they came for the smokers
I didn't speak up because I did not smoke

Then they came for fat people...
Are you speaking up?

[Spinzonner]

20. Not an entirely equivalent relationship

unless you feel threatened by second-hand fat

[ikojo]

22. Smokers were attacked by the media and government

not primarily due to second hand smoke but for what they allegedly cost companies in lost sick days and other health insurance benefits.

The same thing is being said of fat people...that fat people miss more days of work and are less productive and use more of their health insurance benefits.

[tanyev]

24. People like Worker B would keep their mouth shut if

people like Worker A would instantly stand up, get them in a half nelson and yell, "WHAT DID YOU SAY???"

Yeah, I don't have the guts to do it either. But I wish I did.

[Robb]

26. I'm really thankful for threads like this

...because I think things like this sometimes, and I'm still trying to figure out why -- nice, sensitive guy I am -- I'm thinking things that can be so hurtful.

These kinds of discussions, thoughtful as they are, are really helpful.

[ikojo]

27. Thanks Robb....Our culture of thinness

makes is acceptable to criticize anyone perceived as outside the norm in bodysize. Some think it's done for the good of the fat person without regard to its psychological impact.

I had a doctor's appointment the other day and the Med Assistant was relating a story to me about her sister who is anorexic (she's 36). She is also a marathon runner. She said that her sister is eating well now but the family must be careful not to tell her she looks good with the extra weight or else she will fall into her anorexic behavior again.

[fortyfeetunder]

28. Not hateful but very insensitive

Since when was Worker Biotch was designated the &@%$!&## medical doctor and weight control specialist and advisor for the group? She desperately needs a STFU!!!

[johnnie]

31. Man...

If I could sue for every person who cracked jokes or even mentioned how short I was I would be able to buy out Donald Trump.
I think I might start filing complaints.

[Spinzonner]

36. I presume you'd start with Randy Newman ...

[johnnie]

37. LOL

That song didn't help my cause when I was a kid, but I made it through. Some people just don't think, but I never called it "hatred".

[Missy Vixen]

32. Gosh, that's rich

>Approx. 15-20 minutes later Worker A (the overweight employee) is called into a conference room. Worker B "apologizes" to Worker A and then says, "I only said that to you out of concern for your health. I know you've had health problems and could stand to lose weight. I will not apologize for that."<

Interesting that Worker B refuses to apologize in public or in front of the same number of people originally hearing the comment to Worker A. Then again, I have dealt with people like this my entire life. They're cowards.

I learned a phrase a long time ago at a seminar that's served me well over the years. I simply repeat the hurtful or belittling comment made to me, smile, and say, "I don't like what you've said. Was it meant to hurt?" Typically, I don't have to repeat the phrase more than once or twice, because the person in question can't defend their comments.

Julie

[Darth_Kitten]

33. it's disrespectful for sure..................

Some people see other people but they never see themselves.

Worker B has some nerve, who is she to pass judgment?

[Left Is Write]

34. Worker B was rude.

It was very rude for her to tell Worker A that she "should be in Weight Watchers." It's none of her business.

I would also find it rude if there were an ultra-skinny worker and someone in passing said, "Eat something!"

[iconoclastic cat]

35. Yep. Ignorant. Regardless: congrats on the 7 lbs!

To hell with the negative people. You are doing something positive, and that idiot shouldn't detract from your experience.

[BikeWriter]

39. WTF? What part of "none of your bidness" don't she understand?

:wtf:

[El Fuego]

40. What. A. BITCH.

Concern for her health?!? I hope people saw through that lame rationalization.

[Mrs_Beastman]

41. Congrats on losing 7 pounds,btw

Really, overweight people and smokers are the only people it is OK to openly(and I stress openly to avoid being flamed)discriminate against.

Maybe worker B was on that 'dieter's high' which makes them all-knowing about weight loss :eyes: and made her forget her manners.

[undeterred]

42. I once heard a doctor tell a group of medical stufents

"Fat people know that they're fat. You don't have to point it out."

Its really only the doctor who has a right to judge if someones weight is dangerous to their health. And if it really isn't dangerous, even a doctor has no business bringing it up. If the patient asks a doctor for help losing weight then they can acknowledge it and talk about what a healthy weight is and how to get there.

Fat people are aware of their weight and have someone else comment on it by feigning concern for their health is just inappropriate, especially in the workplace.

[Nikia]

44. I am in a support group for people with eating disorders

I have started to become more conscious of things and how they affect me. In a way, I am suprised that more people don't have eating disorders with all the propaganda that we are given.
As someone else mentioned in this thread, those ads showing someone who was size 10 being happy about going on a diet or using a weight loss product and becoming a size 4 really show the wrong image. In some cases (maybe even with the woman in the ad), size 10 is healthier weight wise than size 4. Size 10, when following a healthy lifestyle, is not unhealthy. The ad is not about health.
Another set of articles in women's magazines that I find disturbing is low calorie diets. Many of these low calorie diets when followed long term are anorexic diets. As society, we applaud sedentary overweight women going on these diets. When less sedentary underweight women are on these diets, we call it what it is: anorexia.
I don't know employee B or if she is overweight at all. Really though, the weight watchers should kick out people in the group who are not overweight and losing weight through the program. It is too easy for people to get carried away with this stuff.
As for the comments, if employee As health problems were associated with weight at all, I am sure that her doctor would have mentioned it. As always, people have the right to take medical advice or not. It isn't up to non medical people though to offer unsolicited medical advice.
As I said, I don't know if employee B is overweight at all, if she isn't, it is possible that her own doctor has advised her not to lose weight. She could, personally, be acting against her own health interests.

[Missy Vixen]

46. Nikia, you're taking care of yourself

Good for you.

I hope that the group is greatly beneficial.

Julie

[Nikia]

51. Thanks for your support

I am finding the group helpful so far. It is strange how much easier it is to challenge harmful beliefs and thought patterns when someone else says them or someone else is harming themselves.

[auntAgonist]

47. moved post to the correct place.

[BiggJawn]

48. I am reminded of Churchill....

And I'll paraphrase here....

"No, I don't belong to WW"

"Well, you SHOULD..."

"You know, you're right, I *AM* fat. Pretty DISGUSTINGLY fat, to judge from your attitude. But you know something? YOU, on the other hand, have no manners, are OBVIOUSLY insecure, and stick your beak into things that are none of your fucking business, AND I'll bet you lay awake at night, crying over why you have no friends...."

"On the other hand, *I* can ALWAYS exercise and lose this weight..."

[auntAgonist]

50. excellent!

[auntAgonist]

49. It is disgusting to me

that people feel a need to make remarks about the weight of other people they come across. I am seeing it from both sides now, having lost approximately 70lbs. When I was heavier, people at work (some) wouldn't give me the time of day. Now that I've lost some weight, those same people are telling me "don't lose too much, you're getting too skinny!" and one even told me I was "quite flirtable now" wtf???
Who do these people think they are?
If I wasn't "flirtable" before, .. well you get the idea.

I'm no where near being 'skinny' now, but I can already here the condescending tones to come.

aA

[NMMNG]

53. Fat bashing is one of the still acceptable forms of discrimination

in the US, right up there with gay-bashing, mental-illness bashing and male-bashing. It's not right, but it's true. And people will keep on doing it as long as they are allowed to get away with it--as long as it's considered acceptable, the jokes are laughed at, or nobody raises their voices in protest.

Kudos to you ikojo for speaking out against this woman's rude behavior! :thumbsup: