Should Women Flirt With Men They Have No Intentions Of Sleeping With?

[THUNDER HANDS]

Maybe it's just a question of fairness.

Now, obviously, as a woman, she has final say in whether or not she's going to kiss, hug, slurp or sleep with a guy. But being that men lose most of their functioning brainpower when around women, isn't it fair for women not to lead men along?

Lets take a club or bar for example.

An average guy has a reasonably small chance of getting a woman to come home with him. So when he does meet a woman in one of these places, he acts very interested and does all the things guys do to get women to come back to his place.

All well and good, this has been going on for centuries. But if a woman knows ahead of time that she has no intentions of going home with ANY man (let alone the greasy, smelly one she's currently dancing with) then why start the whole game in the first place?

If you had left that guy alone, there is an outside shot that he COULD have found a girl who would have gone home with him.

So why not just skip out on flirting with guys altogether if you're not in the mood? Guys don't wanna flirt. Guys wanna bang chicks. Flirting should be step one on the quest for banggage.

If you ain't gonna sell the fruit, why put your tomatoes on the shelf?

Ladies?

[Spentastic]

1. I assume

You mean women shouldn't do things that men construe as "leading them on"

Like talking,smiling,dancing,drinking with them, looking at them etc,etc.etc.

If you want to bang someone purchase a whore.

[7th_Sephiroth]

34. no

i got soaked out of $50 for drinks by this woman who i thought was really into me but was just an alchoholic that led me on

[MissMillie]

53. leading them on?

you mean, like breathing?

[salin]

92. when you summarize it so bluntly

one wonders how far away we are from advocating burkas. *sigh*

[Loonman]

2. Connivers

The worst ones are the ones that soak you for drinks by flirting and then beat it when the lights come up.


Evil!

All women are bad!
(Lux Interior reference)

[prolesunited]

8. Are you serious?!?!

"All women are bad!"

Sounds like you have some serious issue that you may want to consider dealing with. Good luck! :hi:

[HuckleB]

48. If anyone is soaking you for drinks...

it's a good sign that something's not quite right.

[salin]

93. So ... don't buy drinks

what a solution. Or be up front. Hey, I am NOT offering a drink to be suave or nice, I want to fuck you - you don't want to fuck? Okay, no drink.

[NicoleM]

3. What if

said woman is interested in something more than a one-nighter? What if she's looking for a relationship? Is it okay then? What if she says upfront, "hey, guy, I might end up liking you but I will not be going home with you tonight?" How many guys would stick around after that?

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. I would

But I'm not every guy.

And do women really go to clubs to find long-term relationships?

[felonious thunk]

15. My wife picked me up in a bar

So, sometimes, yes.

[HuckleB]

Does everyone go to clubs just to get laid.

That's the cliche, not the reality.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. probably not

But if you're gonna put on your best duds, scent yourself with some overpriced fragrance and clean yourself up, you're definately advertising yourself.

It's a meat market in these clubs and I'd definately say a good majority of the people there would go home with someone if they were the right person for them.

[HuckleB]

35. That's the cliche.

It's never been the reality. Most folks are out for a night of fun. And, with that attitude in mind, they probably get laid far more often than those who aren't out to just have fun.

[emad]

4. Sometimes there is a fine line between intentional flirting and

mere sense of humour.

It helps to carry a pheromene meter: lights up when the interest is real

[soleft]

5. should men sleep with women they have no intention of calling again?

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. only if

The woman has no intention of calling them again.

A one-nighter. Nothing wrong with that. As long as there was no misleading involved.

[HuckleB]

25. What percentage of one nighters involves complete honesty?

.

[THUNDER HANDS]

beats me

Never had a one-nighter. The only time I came close I ended up sticking with the woman for six months after we had sex on the first date.

[Loonman]

6. At least give us a damn phone number, even a fake one

So at least we don't know we've been had until 3 days later.

[prolesunited]

7. Hmm...

"Guys don't wanna flirt. Guys wanna bang chicks. Flirting should be step one on the quest for banggage."

With such an enlightened attitude, I'm sure you're getting a lot of "banggage" these days. :eyes:

I can't even begin to address the rest of your B.S. here.

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. should I be P.C.

And say that all men really want is a loving, stable relationship with peace and understanding and harmony?

Men really don't want sex and men don't pull into clubs and bars where women are dressed in skin-tight clothing because they want to oogle them and check them out as one would check out the buffet line at Sizzler.

Men really just want to hold hands and be friends.

:eyes:

Even the nice, sweet guys still want to tap that ass once in a while.

:)

[WoodrowFan]

59. and we just want to cuddle.

Actually, I love to flirt, and it's how I met my wife!

[THUNDER HANDS]

61. oh for the love of christ

Where did you get that smilie thing?

LOL

[WoodrowFan]

70. humping smileys

I found them here.

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/

[salin]

95. i dunno about pc

but perhaps the complaining about dating women... might be a sign of an attitude towards women that is just a tad unappealing to most women. Identifying the problem and where it lies (with the lady - whom I can't tell if they are just being nice or 'flirting' - or me who assumes that all girls/ladies are essentially a blowup doll for me to get my rocks off on) - might be the first thing to look at - instead of deflecting the responsibility - doing the same things - blaming others - and wondering why the same pattern repeats :shrug:

[Kamika]

19. oh good post

I agree with it

[xultar]

9. Well how else are you going to practice?

[dpbrown]

10. Women should flirt with men *because* men are horny and stupid

LOL

Men should rub one off in the john if they can't think straight.

[ProudGerman]

13. The old bait and switch

I just love that. It's only happened to me once, but boy, did I love that experience........yup. But it wasn't like you describe, it was more like flirt flirt flirt flirt hell no, I don't want to give you my phone number.

[GinaMaria]

16. what is flirting?

It may depend on the definition or how you see flirting that shapes your answer. For me flirting was a way to make another person feel good about himself. A smile, a compliment those things can make someone's day. I didn't expect anything from it and flirting is not an invitation for sex. His choice if he wanted to persue a conversation or not. If not, then maybe I gave him a little boost to talk to someone he is interested in.

If someone said something like "that color looks great on you" "You have the most amazing eyes" Whatever, you should take the compliment as an opening to a conversation. Get to know the person a little better. She's trying to get a feel for who you are and if you are someone that might be a good match. You should do the same.

If what you are looking for is casual sex, then say so up front. Who cares if someone gets offended. You're not wasting her time or yours. Not everyone likes flirting, so stop it at line one by stating what it is you want. I'd want to know right away if I barked up the wrong tree.

Like I said, flirting for me was a way to make another person feel good. It usually didn't work out. I had no expectations from it. Neither should he. Cast a wide net and sort through what you catch to find the kind of connection you're looking for.

just my 2 cents

Peace,
Gina

PS
That color looks great on you :-)

[Kamika]

20. yeah good post

I often smile and stuff to guys.. hell i smile to every single customer here until my face hurt.. And they often compliment me.. calling me sunshine or something.. Its just everyday flirting and absolutely not a sex invitation

[GinaMaria]

26. Thanks

Flirting should make you feel good. Mating is an amazing dance. Can be difficult while you're going through it, but if you take a step back, it is really wonderful to watch and participate in.

Flirting doesn't just lead to romance. I suspect that usually it doesn't. It can lead to friendship, or a business connection, or a romantic connection with his or your friend. Wouldn't you feel great if you started a conversation with someone, introduced him to one of your friends and they hit it off?

I think if we spent more time thinking about others and not ourselves, flirting would look a whole lot more successful.

[GOPisEvil]

27. You need to come out and play more often!

:hi:

[GinaMaria]

29. Hi buddy

How is everything? Just to keep on thread topic... Have you been flirting? My flirting is limited to one person now. Got married 3 months ago. Drop me a line and let me know how you are.

Peace
Gina

[GOPisEvil]

32. I heard about the marriage! Congratulations!

My flirting? It's been OK - pretty much the same as it has been. It's been over a year since I saw you guys. I miss ya!

:-)

[GinaMaria]

37. Miss you too

Any chance of you coming back for a visit? I still have that story you told written in my story ideas notebook. I just read it yesterday. Put the money through the door hole. I'm going to use that some day. I just know I will.

Oh flirting thread.... Check out this site. She's a flirting expert

http://www.lovinguniversity.com/flirtsafari.html

[GOPisEvil]

38. I'm definitely coming back!

Next year is a travel year - I can feel it!

That story is my all-time favorite! :thumbsup:

Loving University? That's outstanding!

[GinaMaria]

42. Keep me posted

on your travel plans. My friend Joe is still at the Improv if you're up for another round of Heralds.

Susan Bradley's class was offered at the discovery center in Chicago. A friend and I took it. We signed up before I met Dan. By the time I got to class Dan and I were exclusive, so I was 'criminally flirting'. I just couldn't abandon my friend who wouldn't go with out me. It sounds lame, but it was a riot and we made some friends from the class that we still meet up with (guys). We started helping each other flirt. It really helped my friend who is painfully shy.

Here's the weird part. We went in thinking it would be a room full of women and one strange man. It turned out to be pretty even. There were some great and normal people there who are just really shy or needed a little confidence. I can't tell you how fun this night was.

[GOPisEvil]

47. Will do!

The class sounds really interesting. Lord knows I need all the help I can get. :-)

[Kamika]

17. Flirting = fun

Its all part of the game you know.
And we both know the rules.

If you just want sex.. go to a prostitute

[THUNDER HANDS]

21. of course, for you

flirting = fun. You're like...a chick and stuff.

:)

It's supposed to be fun for you.

It's supposed to be torture for men, and don't deny that it doesn't make you feel powerful to know you can toy with the emotions of men.

[felonious thunk]

24. Bah!

If you just relax and don't take it too seriously, then you'll enjoy flirting too. I think women sometimes use flirting to assess how needy you are, and when you react by immediately trying to sleep with her, she knows that you're far too much trouble. But if you just relax, flirt back, and enjoy it, then she knows that you're fun and confident. And if the flirting gets you no where, so what? You've lost nothing, and maybe even had a little fun in the process. And if you're relaxed and confident, it's going to show and the woman will likely want to get to know you more.

[HuckleB]

31. So are you saying that men are emotionally unintelligent?

Dude. It's a game. It's fun when you play it, and you know it's just a game. Don't take it so seriously.

[Kamika]

36. Fun for the guy aswell

I dont get what you mean "torture for men" I'm sure guys enjoy flirting aswell.. and It doesnt make me feel powerful at all.. not only women can toy with emotions you know.. men are quite good at that aswell.

just dont take everything so serious.. lighten up.. if a girl flirts with you.. flirt back without a super intention of sex, and just see what happens.. :)

[THUNDER HANDS]

40. believe me, I'm not taking it that seriously

I don't go to clubs anyway.

I'm was just asking the question. I have no problem flirting with women.

I'm really a stud. I just put on a loser face for the DU crowd.

;)

[Kamika]

41. I dont think youre a loser..

Youre just abit frustrated.. I can understand that.

Anyway I'm probably the biggest loser here :p

I dont go to clubs either really.. if I do just to dance or show off.

[THUNDER HANDS]

43. I don't know if I'm frustrated

Just confused.

Dating seemed a hell of a lot easier...and I don't know why...but it seemed a lot easier before 911.

Of course, I was dating a lot more before 911.

But I've only been with one girl since I broke up with my ex two years ago.

:shrug:

Maybe it's just not a good dating season right now.

[HuckleB]

46. Before 911?

OK. I know I'm picking on you on this board, but that seems like a feigned construction to me. How did dating change because of 911? Did the schemes of the schemers change? Did the VD danger change? Did people stop talking to one another?

[THUNDER HANDS]

49. I think my Osama beard and turbin

Scared off all the ladies.

:)

Seriously though, I don't know. I just look at the facts. Before 9-11 I was having sex about two or three times a week.

After 9-11, I'm having sex about two or three times a year.

Quite a dropoff.

:(

[DrGonzoLives]

18. At this point

it would be nice if any woman on the planet actually flirted with me. But that won't happen any more than me getting laid, so who cares?

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. Hey baby....how YOU doin'...?

I had to. ;) Plus you look like a Packers fan.

[Brewman_Jax]

22. Of course they should

I might be able to change her mind. :evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

23. So socializing shouldn't occur unless one wants to screw the world?

Sorry to be so harsh, but come on. Everyone flirts, or can be accused of flirting, including men and women with no intention of hitting the sack with anyone but their one and only. Anyway, if courtship and playful conversation are this dead, I actually worry about the communications skills of the current club set.

I don't, though, as my communication with teens and 20-somethings indicates that the art of flirting is alive and well. And who cares if someone who's "out to get some" doesn't get the joke.

I'm not intending to be this harsh. It just came out that way.

[JanMichael]

30. Why the hell not? "We" lie to get chicks to screw us, right?

At least I'm sure a few of us do.

Why shouldn't women have their fun too?

Better yet most guys take "Hello, how are ya'." as "I wanna fuck ya'" so what the point in complaining?:-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. I'd love it

If a woman lied just to sleep with me. :)

Unfortunately, we're talking about the opposite. Subtle deception leading to no sex at the end of the night.

[prolesunited]

52. Did you ever stop to consider

that it's you and not the women? Perhaps they start the tango and realize they are with the wrong partner.

I like sex, too, and am not adverse to spontaneity. However, if I had the impression that a man viewed me as just another piece of meat in the market and viewed me as "banggage" — both attitudes that you have stated here and which I am sure are obvious to the women you interact with — I would end that conversation, despite any initial flirting.

Perhaps instead of blaming women for their "deception," perhaps you should re-examine your own attitudes. I can assure you many of us do not consider them appealing in the least. Just a thought. :-)

[bleedingheart]

54. Just because she said "hello, how are you doing"

doesn't mean she wants you.

I can't tell you the problems I had because I was nice to someone, laughed at a funny joke and they thought I would bear their children...ugh!

[JanMichael]

57. Bingo! There are a whole lotta men that take "hello" as a come on.

So the generic word "Flirting" needs qualifiers prior to discussion because as you're well aware individuals all seem to view it differently.

For example I never was good at pick-up lines so normally I'd just start talking to whoever was interested in a conversation. Basically I never considered myself flirtatious, at all.

That said one evening in a Krakow pub this English girl that I knew and I struck up a conversation about some obscure subject. The subject of flirting came up and I said that I never flirt, she responded with "But Michael you're always chatting girls up!"...

Silly me I thought that I was just talking to people:shrug:

[WoodrowFan]

60. I don't lie to have sex, I do the dishes

doing the dishes or a load of laundry helps though. :)

[MissMillie]

Foreplay starts in the kitchen!

no doubt!

[FlaGranny]

39. Look at it this way -

How many of you guys would approach a woman cold, before you caught her eye? There are subtle messages going on all the time. If you catch her eye, and she looks back at you for more than a second or two - that's flirting, and that's when you approach her. If every time you look at her she quickly looks away, you most likely will NOT approach. It's the way we humans meet people of the opposite sex. After you've introduced yourself and the flirting continues for a while and then suddenly stops - you have said or done SOMETHING wrong and turned her off. That's usually all there is to it. Of course, you will run into an occasional "flirt" who just is out to put you down, but that will be a minority of the women you meet. By the way, the quickest turnoff is a guy who's too pushy.

Edit: Well, maybe the quickest turnoff is BO. :-)

[rbnyc]

44. My husband and I flirt with other people all the time.

Flirting is fun and healthy. It's fine to flirt if you have no intention of taking it all the way. Flirting is its own thing.

[HuckleB]

45. Yup.

.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. There is nothing wrong with flirting...as long as it stays flirting.

I flirt all the time. My husband flirts all the time. I can tell when he answers the phone if it is a male or female caller just by the tone of his voice...and I think it's harmless. :)

[SOteric]

55. I dunno, I can't help thinking you're framing the question wrong.

Flirting isn't a contract for an end result. It's usually just a mutually entertaining way to get to know someone.

By suggesting that flirtatious behaviour is somehow 'leading a guy on,' one places the onus of the man's responsibility, self-control, and socialisation skills entirely on the woman.

Sure, it's unfair to the woman, but it's also insulting to men. It suggests that the entire lot of men have no emotional maturity or control over their sexuality. And I don't believe that for a minute.

By the way, the shoe is often on the other foot. I spent two years with a man who was a very accomplished flirt. His father was, too. Women flocked to them at social functions. It was an exceptionally rare occasion that some woman would assume there was more to his flirtation than a polished social skill.

[MissMillie]

56. I'm going to flirt

and 98 times out of 100, I'm going home alone.

You may end up buying me a drink, but I may end up buying you one too.

You'll get some action when I feel like you care for me, and when I feel safe. So if you want to see me again, I'll be here next Friday night.

[Booberdawg]

58. "Stupid, Horney Men" shouldn't be allowed out in public

They can stay home and masturbate till they gain some common sense and maturity and a better attitude about other people and women in particular.

[THUNDER HANDS]

62. well

If they wait until they aren't horny anymore before meeting women, wouldn't that take the whole purpose out of meeting them?

[MissMillie]

63. only a horny guy would think so... (n/t)

.

[WoodrowFan]

65. Stupid Horny Guys (cartoons)

[Booberdawg]

67. The point is "Stupid Horney Men"

as you put it in your poll, shouldn't be allowed to meet woman AT ALL. The purpose you do it is beside the point. That's YOUR problem, not hers. You can stay home and masturbate. :D

[salin]

100. now that is certainly enlightening

and here, is the crux of the problem.

You are stating that the only reason to even talk to and meet women is to get your jollies off.

Not to have conversations. Not to make friends. Not for business networking. Not to learn something new from someone with similar interests but different experiences (eg a graphic artist who shares political views - can talk politics but over time learning something about graphic arts).

I don't think you met to let the mask down - but sounds like the only purpose of women, to you, is for a quick fuck. Like it is impossible to start from the frame of making friends (platonic - its possible) or just meeting new people. And maybe somewhere down the line - finding that the friendship grows into something more. But that isn't going to happen when you say things that disclose that you really can't "see" women as people - just as blowup dolls.

[THUNDER HANDS]

103. specifically

I meant in terms of meeting someone at a bar or club.

It's not like I would walk up to a woman in the supermarket and tell her 'nice melons' if she was holding up a can of tuna.

;)

And I've never, in my life, had a quick fuck. I don't work that way. But I do sound like I do when I post here for some reason.

:)

[salin]

107. you really do

bet if you figure out why you do - you might just be able to adjust the attitude the little bit that is needed to be a tad more successful - not on the quick fuck front, but on the getting a date front (which might lead to something even better than a quick fuck... like a series of fun dates - that might include some sex along the way).

[THUNDER HANDS]

113. i appreciate the advice

thanks for not bashing me over the head with a large stick.

:hi:

[salin]

127. hehe

I think I started out bashing you with a large stick - but your comments realized that there might be a bit of a disconnect for you - and that you can 'get it' :D thus I have replaced the large stick, with a gently cushioned prod ;-)

[Loonman]

64. You know why women make men jump through hoops?

Because they can.

[prolesunited]

68. Are there some

particular reasons why you apparently dislike women so much?

[Loonman]

69. No, I'm just telling the truth

I say what nobody else has the balls to say, except for MagicRat.

[MissMillie]

71. I think your statements say more about men

than it does about women.

In other words, good conversation, companionship, humor, intelligence mean nothing to men. For them it's ALL about getting laid. And since that is all they are after, women can make them jump through hoops.

How unfortunate for men, if this is indeed true. They're missing out on so much.

[Loonman]

72. If you do not like the answer

Do not ask the question.

[MissMillie]

74. Did I ask a question? (n/t)

.

[prolesunited]

73. Well, I simply don't agree

with your perception of truth. Just because it is "truth" for you, it doesn't make it reality.

I hope you have come to know some of the women of DU by our posts here. Would you really put all of us in that same category? That we are connivers and evil and bad?

I would like an honest answer about how you feel about the women who post here.

[Loonman]

77. Yes, I do put them in different categories

Online, being anonymous allows people to speak more clearly and say things they wouldn't otherwise.


When I discuss subjects like religion, male/female relations, societal customs, in the real world, fist-fights usually start.

I'm never afraid to voice how flawed the human race is, and how constrained we are by bullshit societal norms.



You find me a women that doesn't swoon for a 6 figure salary, Beemer, a palatial spread in the countryside and flipping great wads of cash, and I'll show you a liar, or someone who denies their baser human proclivities.

[Misinformed01]

80. I am sitting right here at the computer

n/t

[prolesunited]

82. I didn't see you voicing

how flawed the human race is. I saw you say that women are connivers and liars.

And frankly, I don't "swoon" over six-figure salaries and Beemers. If those things held any value for me, I would acquire them myself.

[GinaMaria]

84. right here

and I'm not a liar or someone who denies who I really am.

I'm someone who appreciates daily the battles women before have fought so that I don't have to live or think like my mother. The whole purpose of economic freedom for women was to lay to rest the gold digger. Because I have the ability to provide for myself, I don't have to look to another person for that. If there's something I want, then I earn it and get it myself.

I was free to marry for love, not financial security. The work of those before me allowed me to measure a man for who he is not what he has. My personal opinion of men who have a lot of material wealth is that they lack the ability to make emotional connections and forge working relationships. Their values lie somewhere else and are therefor not attractive to me.

I married an equal. We make roughly the same salary, owned similar value of property. Neither of us are gold diggers. That mentality is not limited by gender by the way.

If this is the type of person you attract, then you need to take a look at yourself. If this is what you expect to find in women, then this is the type of women you will meet. You will reinforce your own perception as truth. I wish you luck, because I think she is out there for you. You have probably overlooked her because you were looking at the gold digger.

[salin]

102. hey bucko

while I was in grad school in the rockin' silicon valley in the heady millionaire tech days - I was set up with a dude who fit your profile - and if a sale went through (as it did later) would be a multimillionaire. He was a loud obnoxious, but basically nice guy. But not my type. We were set up at a birthday celebration by a couple that are mutual friends.

No swoon. No ignoring that his obnoxious/loudness grated on my nerves.

I am not a liar. And I am not "subverting my baser human proclivities". Go figure. Maybe we just run in very different circles, but I know a whole lot of women who have done the same thing.

Find the women who are basically confident enough to know that they will financially make it on their own, and that their self-worth is tied up... in themselves... and the whole description you lay out - generally disappears. Again, go figure.

[THUNDER HANDS]

75. don't bring me into this

I get my ass in enough trouble around here.

:evilgrin:

[Misinformed01]

76. I remember some of your posts about a woman

that you were dating; I also remember a post of yours in a rape thread in LBN.

I personally think that you might be a pretty cool guy, and I think I understand exactly why you asked this question.

There are about 5 people on this thread that should bartend for a week, and then come back and answer this question. If I answer it, I am going to get slammed by every feminist on this board.

[THUNDER HANDS]

79. no, I totally assure you

I am a cool guy. Just ask Skittles, I'm one of the few people who's ass she's not ready to kick.

:)

[Misinformed01]

81. Hey, I was sticking up for you

Didja miss it?

[THUNDER HANDS]

105. nope, sorry

thanks Misinformed01 as well.

:hi:

[salin]

91. Steph

we are just on a different page on this. And I have done my duty as bartender.

There is no distinction made by MR or others about when a conversation becomes flirting.

I am someone who has always dug cool conversations. With men and women. I just dig talking - not small talk (what a bore) - but finding subjects that can go in lots of directions. For me it has always been about mentally connecting - it is just interesting. SOmetimes that leads to clever banter (as we - you and I and others - have done here on the boards - and guess what... we weren't flirting, and it wasn't an invitation).

In these discussions I am very concerned that all behavior is lumped together. According to the lose definition - I should never engage in such conversations because to some guys they can't figure it out. And if they think it is 'flirting' it is my fault. Suddenly just getting into conversations rather than small talks is... foreplay?

In my first professional job - I suddenly found around a select few male colleagues, I couldn't do certain very normal things (such as bend over to pick up a pen that fell on the floor) without having some lewd comment made. So I try and I try to be a professional colleage - to be viewed not as a female but as a colleague. But around these clowns I had to watch every body move (that they NEVER had to do) or I was suddenly no longer being 'heard as a colleague' but instead was instantly converted into a mark to be bedded.

This whole conversation is about that attitude.

Sure there are women who do the lead on thing. Lets call it what it is - manipulation. Not flirting. There are tons of male manipulators as well. That goes further than the innocent approach/hit on.

This broad lumping of all into "flirting" and then solely dumping the blame on women is so... pre ERA.

[Misinformed01]

104. I knew I was going to have something said

about my post both sticking up for MR, and the bartending comment.

I wrote that I thought I understood from his past experiences why he posted this question...the language he used was tasteless, and I imagine he regrets the "banging" comment. However, I had the feeling that he posted that more out of frustration as a young man trying to learn how to deal with young women, than out of any personal animosity towards women.

For the record, Magic Rat wrote a post in a rape thread in LBN that was hands down the most sensitive post by a man I have ever read on DU--I think I may have bookmarked it just for that post.

I understand why people would take offense to this post; however, as long as some of us have been here, it's better to look at the history of the poster and try and understand where they are coming from. Yes, his choice of words sucked--but, as a person, I don't think Magic Rat does.

[salin]

111. actually

I would disagree. Earlier MR suggests that the way his posts come out on DU sound different than he means - that could be the case. THat, might be worth reflecting on - because maybe some of it seeps out, and thus gets misinterpreted when trying to get that date.

MR does have a tendency to have this female as meat, guys as victims of the seductive meat tone on numerous lounge threads over time. Maybe it is just trying to have cool hip banter - but it comes off as crass and very disrespectful to the women posting here.

Good to hear that you have read another sampling/selection of his posts that perhaps bring some balance to his posting.

So MR - then I change my advice - look at where you address issues in a way that women here on the board respond positively - and look at the language/attitude used in the posts where you raise a gazillion hackles from women at DU. Perhaps by looking at your own words - in groups of posts (different threads) and trying to "get" why you get the reaction - might help you out in the real world.

[Misinformed01]

123. I hate to say this, but I knew when I read this post

that MR wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of explaining himself to the feminists on this board when they decided to jump in.

For the record, I completely agree with NSMA and you about the language used in the post.

On a public board such as DU, it helps me to get to "know" some of the posters before I come down there throats (OK, well that's the theory, anyway--I slammed someone yesterday I had never seen before)...DU has gotten so large that I can't do that anymore. I don't recognize most of the people here now.

I wanted to say something in defense of MR as a person before he was chewed up and spit out by the DU women.

My honest opinion of this post is that MR is "guilty" of being immature in his choice of language. As a bartender, I deal with young men in social situations four nights a week; I have sympathy for them when they are trying to understand the social rules of the game of dealing with women.

Believe me when I tell you that for people in their twenties and early thirties now, the "new" rules are murky as hell. Women wear things to bars that were considered lingerie 20 years ago; no woman I knew would have been caught dead wearing the Brittany Spears outfits. This younger generation has sex slapped down their little throats every single time they turn on the computer, TV or open a newspaper, with no "rule book" on how to act.

So, while I agree with the feminists here, I also have some sympathy for a sensitive young man who is trying like hell to figure things out in a confusing world with very few role models to emulate.

[salin]

130. well....

two things... "I also have some sympathy for a sensitive young man who is trying like hell to figure things out in a confusing world with very few role models to emulate." The words don't show "sensitive" - but he can work on that.

second - the BEST way to try to learn is to ask - without the baggage of male perspective/presumptions/language. There are women here of a broad range of ages. ASK what is going on. ASK what the difference is between agressive flirting vs general banter/teasing... ASK the ladies for their perspectives - and rather than shooting them down with presumptions (MR has not done this, but another has) - try to get an understanding.

Use the female DUers as a place to learn the other side perspective. I think that there are a lot of "aha's" to be learned from one another. But we often bring in our own baggage, or the cultural baggage that reads ONLY from our perspective and thus disallows us to figure out some different perspectives - that will likely help us navigate the craziness.

[salin]

131. funny thing

I never viewed myself as a "feminist" or as "i'm not a feminist". I never studied gender issues. So framing the reaction as coming from "feminists" is a bit, perhaps unintentionally, marginalizing.

I have dealt with professional gender discrimination.

I have been raped.

I have had to help others through the aftermath of incestuous abuse.

A very close friend has served years as a domestic abuse legal advocate.

What so many people miss, is that this stuff is SO commonplace at ALL income levels and among all ethnic groups.

Regardless of all of these things, I do NOT view most males as adversaries. But I have come to hear statements/veiws/attitudes repeated over and over again that help explain why some "normal" or "good guys" end up perpetrating some of the above things.

To express concern over these very types of attitudes... is to be marginalized as "the feminists on the board"?

I love ya Steph, but I feel a bit dismissed.

[Loonman]

78. You take too much crap is what you do

Stand up for yourself.

[salin]

89. may I never have the pleasure

of having a conversation with either of you in person.

Because I like good conversation - for conversation's sake. but YOU might perceive it as flirting. And then if I don't signal I don't want to sleep with you - it will be my fault for flirting. But it would NEVER be your fault for not being able to participate in a conversation for conversation's sake, and not distinguishing between banter and conversation (which does happen among same sex conversations - not nec. as flirting - so why suddenly is it automatically flirting across sexes)?

What a joke.

[Kamika]

87. lol

mean but true :p

[GinaMaria]

90. I must have missed

out on all that hoop jumping. Is it too late to get into it now? Had no idea I was that all powerfull. Wonder why we don't run the world? I mean if we can make you all jump through hoops, we could certainly make you vote for us.

[Kamika]

97. no its limited

We can only do it a certain (short) amount of time

[MissMillie]

99. Same thing w/ them.... lol (n/t)

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. Flirting is a whole lot more fun than getting the cold shoulder.

Not that I can really remember.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. I'm sorry but even the language you use in this light hearted lounge post

pisses me off beyond believability.

It is no small wonder you have so many problems with women given the manner in which you objectify them and don't regard them as human beings.

"Guys don't wanna flirt. Guys wanna bang chicks. Flirting should be step one on the quest for banggage."

I have known enough men over the course of my lfe to know that while sex is high on their priority list ( and biology and all that stuff, they too can act and speak LIKE humans ABOUT humans.

I understand that you probably do not realize that the language you are using actually DOES promote violence against women (GUYS WANNA BANG CHICKS) but it does by suggesting women are THINGS TO DO SOMETHING TO.

You also subtly imply that if a woman DOES flirt with a man, there is an OBLIGATION on the part of the woman to LET THEM BANG THEM.

Perhaps if you begin to examine YOUR attitude via YOUR words, you will have insights on your own difficulties in getting women to be comfortable with you. I am CERTAIN the women in whose company you are pick up on these attitudes and it probably has them shy away towards a more respectful male.

[MissMillie]

85. Ladies and Gents! We have a winner.

The original post, and many since, seem to be a slam at women, when in fact they say so much more about men (maybe not all men, but at least the men who would make such a statement).

[salin]

88. bingo.

it is a load of crap.

I guess the flip side if one framed it this way - would be that all girls should assume that any guy who 'hits on them' is rapist - since any response on her part is an invitation to sex. She should be warned that he never just wants to talk with her, can't view her as an interesting person, she is just a target of sex. And if she is flattered but uninterested... she better not be polite and say she is flattered - because that would be flirting - and once she does that she owes it to him to have sex. :eyes: The fact that some people believe this, in my mind, helps explain why there is still a high incidence of acquaintance and date rape.

[pmbryant]

96. I see plenty of absurd generalities about both sexes in this thread

It is quite embarrassing. Thanks to everyone who has challenged these ridiculous statements.

--Peter

[salin]

86. I read it

as just another piece of evidence about common public attitudes that make "no" murky and explain the continuing prevalence of date rape/acquaintence rape. It's her fault for flirting. :eyes:

[THUNDER HANDS]

110. please see Post No. 109

I think I tried to clear up what I meant by flirting. I obviously didn't make it very clear before.

[GinaMaria]

119. see post 16

the question was posed to you early on.

[salin]

133. That, perhaps, is where you should have started

the thread.

Also perhaps with a question for those still clubbing - and what are their expectations when engaging in that level of... lets call it physical/aggressive flirting. I would still guess that there are some miscues between the genders - and getting at what they are will help both involved.

But thanks for clearing up the differentiation.

I trust you can understand the reaction you have received when many of us read flirting to be more the office and/or new person over a drink... joking around or conversing... in the context of your post/poll.

[pmbryant]

94. As usual, a fabulous hard-hitting post from NSMA

Thanks for sticking around.

:hi:

--Peter

[THUNDER HANDS]

108. well, if I can reply....

I totally understand how you could reach the conclusion you reached. I guess in some areas it does sound like I'm generalizing - the whole "guys wanna bang chicks" thing comes to mind.

:)

But I don't necessarily agree that it promotes violence against women. Unless consentual sex automatically equals violence. And since I didn't say that men deserve to get sex if a woman flirts with them, I don't think I give clearnce to any guy who wants to take things too far.

But then again, I can see how you would make an argument like that.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't really mean to.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. Language MATTERS..please consider it. Sorry REALLY doesn't help.

You are deliberately SKEWING the notion of consensual sex with the LANGUAGE that you used to describe that consensual sex in which some THING is DONE to a THING, not a person.

It isn't about me being offended, it is about YOU BEING OFFENSIVE and pretending you are "just being a guy" as in "boys will be boys."

Stop putting the onus on those that will call you on your poor behavior and point that finger in the direction it belongs for a change. YOURSELF.

[prolesunited]

117. All I want to say is

:yourock:

[THUNDER HANDS]

120. I would

If I were one who actually disrespected women. If you had to look at the balance of my posts, the majority of those that don't start outright with a wink and a nod are very pro-women, pro-feminism, whatever.

Maybe I need to be a little more clear, adn certainly your point about language is valid.

But I just wanted to state for the record that I don't regard women as "things." Strange creatures maybe, but definately not "things."

;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

122. Reminds me of my favorite THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS song line

"you can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

All the good your higher consciousness does in those PRO WOMEN posts actually does get negated by your persistence in enrolling other males on DU to speak of women in objective manners.

We are ALL always creating something..... we are ALL always either expanding or contracting.

You can post the most supporting, loving respectful post regarding women and women's issues in GD..but if you then come to the lounge and use language that continues to perpetrate the myth that women are objects responsible for men's impulses ( and other DU men nod in agreement, buy into it, or post some disrespectful post about women in order to give your thread opener a cyber high five)...you have not only negated your owm moments of higher consciousness, you have AIDED and abetted linguistic unconsciousness, thereby working against what you claim to be your own stand on the matter.

[THUNDER HANDS]

124. I think you might take stuff posted in the lounge a little too seriously

But I will try to be more respectful in the future, now that I know how others feel.

Thanks,

jay


:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

125. You are putting it off on ME again. That doesn't work for me.

I took what you said in your opening post at face value. Later on in the thread, you said you didn't mean that.

It isn't ME being a party pooper. I REJECT that.

Now, can we try an apology in which you are actually SORRY without putting it off on me?
(Not that I need an apology but since you seem to get yourself into trouble by saying things you don't mean, I simply wanted to point out that an apology that puts the responsibility OFF ON ME is NO APOLOGY at all.)

[THUNDER HANDS]

126. you you you, it's always about you, isn't it?

;)

I really am sorry. Sometimes I have foot-in-keyboard disease.

[salin]

134. pssst.

I think that NSMA is giving you an invitation for a culminating 'aha' moment. That is - having to verbalize the "why language matters" point (that you said that you 'got') in the context of why the post was upsetting to many, without doing so with "putting it on someone else" (as in... "well because you were upset... I am sorry... which inadvertantly reads as.. I am not sorry for the action, I may or may not get why it was a problem... but because you are upset.. well... i appologize) - gives any one of us that 'zen' moment where we really have to internalize what has come at us - understand it - understand our role in it - and thus grow from it.

The public zen master himself, Mr Jackson, might be able to word it more clearly - but the point is (philosophy ahead) that our actions (in this case specific language in the post) sets of a series of other actions (reactions to our language/post), and that if the results of that action have caused trouble to others - to set it right takes owning and understanding the first (and how it set off the others) - and incorporating the lessons or the 'aha' - and creating a new action/set of reactions. Okay - I am not terribly good at zen... but hopefully you get the point.

[RetroLounge]

98. I say sure, why not!

I've slept with a few women (back in the day) who said they had no intention of sleeping with me.

So let them flirt....

[phrenzy]

101. Grey Areas

As usual this is not black and white.

But, mainly it all has to do with intent. If a girl simply says watch me "turn this guy on, get a drink and then diss him" (and YES I have seen girls do this time and again) - Then that girl is being a bitch and we all know this.

Then again, sometimes it is just a guy being stupid and not being cautious - if a girl comes on to you and starts asking for a drink - well, be careful - you may be being had.

There are so many areas in between - everything from girls wanting to feel a power-trip to girls being honestly interested in a guy but just not interested in going home with the guy that night.

Sometimes girls will flirt with a guy and learn quickly that the guy is a loser and then back off.

Again, if the girls intent is to just play the guy for a chump - then of course, nobody would approve of that. It's just lame. As guys, it is our duty to learn how to spot and avoid (or diss) those types of girls.

[VelmaD]

106. Maybe it's just me, but...

I thought the whole point of flirting was to have fun and laugh a little. Some of the most fun I've ever had flirting was with people who both of us knew it wasn't going anywhere. We were just doing it to have fun.

Hell, if we all stopped flirting on DU the traffic here would decrease by half. ;-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

109. lol

There's flirting...and then there's the flirting I think I was originally thinking of.

Office flirting, between another co-worker and yourself.

Harmless and fun.

Party flirting, between long-time friends and newer friends.

Harmless and fun.

Dance-floor grinding and dry-humping to techno music.

A little suggestive in my book. If I were to get the wrong idea about a woman's intentions after she just rubbed her ass in my crotch for a half hour, I'm sure I wouldn't be the first guy.

[MissMillie]

112. That's not flirting

... but then again, don't assume that it's a blatant invitation.

I wouldn't do that unless I were serious, but then again, I wouldn't be likely to do that in public at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. Lots of DU women flirt with me. I don't take it to mean they OWE me sex.

[Booberdawg]

135. Indeed

Nor would so many women flirt with you if you behaved as though there were such a quid pro quo for sex due.

Message was directed to Magic Rat - do you see how this works?

[Superfly]

114. Flirting, when not wanted is sexual harassment.

Flirting with the intention of just "leading" somebody on, is also sexual harassment.

[thebeaglehaslanded]

118. At my age I'd be flattered if any woman flirted with me,

and I wouldn't care what her intentions were.

[MissMillie]

121. hey big boy!

Is that a cell phone in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

;-)

[amazona]

128. what is flirting?

I don't flirt. Ever. WOuldn't know how. Not deliberately anyway. FLirting is something in the man's mind. I am from the South, and so I do giggle and smile and talk pleasantly to people instead of automatically saying, "Drop dead, creepazoid," if I can tell within 10 seconds of meeting him that I have no intention of sleeping with him. The world is going to be a cold, hateful, unfriendly world if we are not allowed to smile and converse because of the 20 percent minority who thinks any attempt at pleasantness is an attempt to get him into bed.

If the man is in a rush to see if I'm interested in him, instead of making jokes about world events, why doesn't he go ahead and ask if I want to go somewhere with him? My "yes" or my "no" -- given politely -- will give the opportunity to move onto the next girl if he doesn't like the answer. How hard is that? Lots of times, people in a bar just want to have a drink and shoot the ****. I don't think being a friendly polite person is "putting my tomatoes on a shelf." If the guy is shopping for something, it's up to him to go ahead and try to close the sale. Otherwise, especially if he is much younger, I'm going to assume he is just amusing himself with some idle chat while waiting for his buddies to arrive -- which is probably all I'm doing.

Older men have no trouble getting to the point. "Are you available?" is probably too blunt, although it must work for some of them, since they continue to use it. But it certainly works better than coming 'round a year later and complaining that they had a crush on me and we coulda had a thing only somehow I stomped on their itty bitty heart by leading them on and then taking off with someone else...yikes, all women are not professional psychics, you know.

[Speck Tater]

129. Women are what they are and do what they do,

That will never change. Take it or leave it. Just remember to always put the toilet seat down, because of the two sexes, us men are the only ones that are smart enough to look before we sit.

[Cleita]

132. And so you have stated the eternal war of misunderstanding

between the sexes. Let me explain to you why women flirt. We send signals to the guys we might be interested in because we want to get to know them better. It narrows the field for us and eliminates the need to let down the guys we're not interested in. This doesn't mean we want to sleep with them right away if ever.

Guys who think that bagging chicks for a quickie deserve all the dates they are going to be having with their right hand. I used to be a bartender in a place that could've been called a single's bar. I noticed that the men who were the most successful with women were the one's who weren't pushy, who dated a few times without expecting sex.

The truth is too, that you might date a girl a few times and get dumped before the big "bagging" ceremony. We used to call it notches on the bed post. This is because the initial impression you made on us wasn't what you turned out to be. So dumping you before sex makes sense to us. Why continue a relationship any further?

My two cents.