Bullfighting: A Great Tradition or Straight Up Animal Cruelty

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

My friend just returned from Spain where he attended a bullfight. What are your thoughts on this form of entertainment?

(I would post this in GD but dammit that place scares the hell outta me).

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

1. Okay, I wanna see some THOUGHTS

not just poll results. :)

Example: Hey, I would never go to a bullfight but I would pay big money to see ChavesSpeakstheTruth in a matador outfit. Ooh ooh, GRRRRRRRRRIL!

[kenny blankenship]

2. I'd respect it more if they did it Minoan style

and vaulted over the horns of the bull.

It's a great tradition and it's animal cruelty. I'm not attending unless dragged to one. If the matador is severely gored I may change my mind and file it away as a fond memory.

[DinahMoeHum]

3. The Spanish method sucks, IMO. I'd rather see rodeo bull-wrestling

or bull-riding. (they give points for the bull as well as the human!). And there's always the chance that someone will "break a leg".

:evilgrin:

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

5. Bull wrestling?!?!

Yes, I'd say that's a little more daring.

[redqueen]

4. I like reading about it.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

6. Reading about bull fighting?

Really?

[redqueen]

Yes, well...

there are certain works of fiction involving bullfighting that I've enjoyed, yes.

So, while I do think it's unnecessarily torturous to real live bulls in a real live bullfight, I still appreciate fictional accounts.

Does that make sense?

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

21. Yeah,

I thought you meant on the sports page or something. :rofl:

Sorry, I was a little confused.

[redqueen]

26. hehe... sorry.

Like your avatar... is that Elvis?

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

34. Yes, it is.

He's slightly cooler than Tony Danza (who was my avatar for several weeks) so he won out.

[redqueen]

38. Slightly?!

I may have to dislike you now. :P

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

40. Okay, more than slightly....

marginally.

[redqueen]

44. Ooooooh

Why I oughtta!

x(


wait... do you think Danza is way cool, perhaps?

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

49. Yes, *HE* is the boss.

I don't care what anyone says.

[redqueen]

51. Oh, okay then.

:)

[Radio_Lady]

106. Was "Death In The Afternoon" about bullfighting?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. I already made my thoughts known about this subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3621191#3621957

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

9. Indeed.

Must....use.....search.....OPTION!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Not exactly redundant, since yours is a poll. (nt)

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

71. *AND* mine has more posts.

:P

Edit: Thanks to you, I see. Go get 'em, tiger.

[cheeseit]

8. Very much the latter. Utter, sick barbarism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. Depends on the kind of bullfighting.

Bullfighting has a certain popularity in southern France; in the French version (called la course Camarguaise), the bulls aren't killed.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. OK, Paul, you want responses? Here's mine!

I don't like the sport the way it is currently played. I would not object as much if the bull were not killed. Someone else posted about jumping over the bull's horns or some such; I agree that this form is a lot better than the Spanish form. I find the artistry of it very interesting, but I abhor the killing and all the spearing that leads up to that.

I always enjoy posting in your threads! :loveya:

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

14. Thanks for weighing in, Peggy.

And a belated welcome-back from your trip!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

100. Never too late for welcomes, my dear Paul!

Your threads are always interesting...:hi:

[XemaSab]

12. Rome is in Italy you moran!

n/t

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

18. Actually, Rome is in Georgia.

See?

[HereSince1628]

122. But Rome (and Picket Fences) is in Wisconsin.

But we don't fight bulls, we "manipulate" them. Wisconsin semen travel the world.

[Kraklen]

13. Tradition.

I'd like to see one.

[LaurenG]

15. Mean and unconscionable

I think if you want to play like that you should get to pretend your the bull first.

[RedCloud]

16. Fight animals that can fight back like tigers or polar bears!

Hurting those vegetarian bulls out of penis envy. It is just disgusting!

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

23. Penis envy?

I think they're fighting them for the money, no?

[RedCloud]

25. Some cultures think that the virility of the bull will transfer.

If the horns are touched.
If the fresh blood of the bull is imbibed.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

30. Interesting.

I'll have a diet coke instead.

Edit: And not to stir the pot just for the sake of controversy, but why would you say bulls aren't able to fight back?

[formerrepuke]

17. The meat has already been sold.. its just a matter of slaughter..

...as to whether the deed is done through an elaborate series of jabs and choreography -or a metal cylinder shot through the skull, one can weigh the cruelty aspect vs tradition. I for one, find them fascinating. Mind you, there are people in Spain who have never been to a bullfight- and for whom bullfighting has all the appeal that monster-truck rallies do in this country: Some are totally into it, others find it hopelessly tacky.

[Kraklen]

19. My thoughts exactly.

I admit there's a gray area and I'm not going to criticize another culture if they decide to draw the line differently.

Same reason I support the Makah whale hunt.

[Shell Beau]

31. What exactly is the Makuh whale hunt?

Is it another one of those pointless things that contributes to the endagerment and possible extinction of several types of whales?

[Kraklen]

36. No.

It's a ceremonial grey whale hunt practiced by the Makah tribe of Washington State. It's gauranteed by treaty but animal rights activists and racists have kept it bottle up in courts and the Makah have only been allowed to do it once.

[Shell Beau]

43. Why do you say racist?

The grey whale is in the group of whales at risk. Some things become more important. If there were none left, they wouldn't be able to do it anyway.

[Kraklen]

47. Nope.

At least not in the Eastern Northern Pacific Ocean, where grey whale populations have surged and been removed from the endangered species list.

The racist attacks on the Makah during the big controversy was quite obvious. There's no shortage of Americans who were outraged that those savages got to kill a whale and they didn't.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. Please back up your assertions. (nt)

[Kraklen]

58. You can find a wealth of information here...

http://www.makah.com/

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

74. Where in that site does it say the attacks of whaling are racist?

It talks of people protesting and that's all.

http://www.makah.com/1999whaling.htm

[Shell Beau]

78. I guess s/he is saying that b/c they are a

different race, then it must be racist. Which is complete and utter . If they showed some type of evidence that it was a racist act of more than one person then I would understand.

It really shouldn't be surprising.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3592417#3592765

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3499267#3499299

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3472580#3472981

[Kraklen]

82. Oh, you want the racism.

Here you go.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alxdark/anthro/racism.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. I wonder what took you so long to post that. (nt)

[Shell Beau]

52. I don't know much about the Makuh tribe. But

even if the whale was removed from the endangered list doesn't mean it is not still at risk (which is what I said).

[Kraklen]

56. One ceremonial killing...

of a species that arguably has become overpopulated, does not become a risk.

[Shell Beau]

57. I have never EVER heard that it

arguably overpopulated. Their population is somewhere between 20,000-30,000 (at the very most). Most likely somewhere in between.

[Kraklen]

64. The twenty to thirty thousand...

is just about the natural population of gray whales before European commercial whaling decimated the population.

The argument comes in that since the gray whale habitat has declined, that a 30,000 whale population is to great for the decreased habitat size. This is an explanation as to why emaciated starved gray whales are washing up on PNW beaches.

[Shell Beau]

67. I don't know where you get your info, but they

are not overpopulated. They are just now getting back to a healthy population. Just b/c something is a tradition, does not make it right. That is why several older traditions no longer exist!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. "and racists"

:eyes:

[Kraklen]

53. Indeed.

"Save a whale. Kill a Makah."

[Shell Beau]

55. How about save them both?

[Kraklen]

60. Ah, but the thing is...

if we're going to grant the Makah special right of being allowed to live, I'd also like to grant them the right to have their treaty honored, and grant them the right to self determination.

[Shell Beau]

63. My way is fair to the whales too! Whales have

suffered so much in the past. I think that treaty is probably a little outdated. Although, that is just speculation on my part.

[Kraklen]

65. Yeah, but it's not fair to the Makah.

If you don't like whale hunting, you don't have to participate.

[Shell Beau]

68. Uh, right. Well I don't participate. But

if I feel something is wrong, I will participate my opposition to it. Tradition does not equal right. Some traditions need to be broken.

[Kraklen]

70. Ah, but it is a right.

Guaranteed by the treaty and the U.S. constitution.

If you care about animals, I suggest ending the slaughter of millions of cattle in the United States before worrying about what other people are doing.

It's really past time for white Americans to stop deciding what Native American traditions need to be broken.

[Shell Beau]

72. Thank you very much for assuming I am white.

And I don't believe cattle are at risk for endangerment. And you have no idea what causes I stand behind. But again thank you for assuming. Like I said, some traditions are outdated. This is one of them. For the record, I have a lot of Native American blood in me. Several of my very close relatives were Cherokee. But since you didn't go ahead and assume that, then you wouldn't have known. And racist? Well... I guess I won't say anything else.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. Well, if there's a treaty, there's not much that can be done.

But that doesn't mean it's right, or necessary. Of course, ONE whale a year is no big harm to the ecosystem.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. "Kill"? I thought it was ceremonial, and not for sustenance. (nt)

(Edited for spelling)

[Kraklen]

66. It's both for ceremony and sustenance.

Feel free to read the link.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. WOW! They are SUPERHUMAN!

70 years without eating! And then the entire tribe lives on ONE WHALE A YEAR! :sarcasm:

[Kraklen]

86. Ah, mockery.

Hmm.

OK, so let's say that Brazil was invaded by midwesterns. They force you to subsist on a diet of macaroni & cheese and RC cola. Now, I imagine a country which the cultural diversity of Brazil is probably not going to be happy with that, especially after 70 years. No?

[Shell Beau]

87. What about the traditions of cock fighting and dog fighting?

I mean tradition is tradition.

[Kraklen]

88. Or cannabilism, right?

[Shell Beau]

89. Well, no not really. I don't

equate humans and animals.

[Kraklen]

90. Really?

Because you were implying that not killing whales and not killing Makahs was a "fair" (your word) compromise.

[Shell Beau]

91. Where did I ever say anything about killing Makahs?

I said that tradition was outdated and whales are at risk. That is what I said. Not equating the people with the whales. If that is what you got, then you are way off base.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

93. This comparison is SO ridiculous it isn't even funny.

You said it was for sustainance. It isn't. Period.

For the record: I am now convinced there's no harm in that tribe's annual hunting of ONE whale - PROVIDED THE SPECIES REALLY ISN'T ENDANGERED ANYMORE - but you could have convinced me WAY faster if your arguments weren't so BS-laden.

(Edited for inclusion of a BIG if.)

[Kraklen]

124. The comparison is valid.

The Makah used to subsist on a diet of almost entirely seafood. They stopped eating gray whales because they had almost been hunted to extinction by white men. No they want to hunt gray whales again, both for cultural purposes and to supplement their diet.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Yeah, gray

Like #FFFFFF is black and #FEFEFE is gray.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

22. "A series of jabs and choreography..."

So slow, painful torture vs. a quick death?

Why the need for cruelty in the process of death?

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

24. For entertainment!

Why else?

....just messing with you. I see your point.

[Shell Beau]

29. Killing an animal slowyly and painfully for

food? I don't think so. It is a game to them. And it is sad. I would agree that it is fair, if the were both unarmed.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. I saw one in Spain....

when I was 19.

It is one of the most disgusting events I have ever personally witnessed. There is nothing artistic about it, nothing noble, nothing entertaining. It is just the torture of an animal - long, slow torure, ending in the animals death.

From that moment on I have always rooted for the bull.

[AngryAmish]

27. At some point we will stop imposing American society on the woirld

But it is clear we have not reached that point. Folks, some of you may think that Hispanics are beneath you but it does not mean we get to boss them around.


edited to refine my thoughts

[dean_dem]

37. It's all relative. Got it.

Just like female genital mutilation in the Congo, right? Who are we to impose our value system on them?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Some bossing.

Expressing disapproval of an act in an Internet board. Suuuure.

What next, we shouldn't object to pickpocketers having their hands cut off in Saudi Arabia?

[flvegan]

28. Matadors are backstabbers.

No, seriously, bullfighting is bullshit. Animal cruelty, plain and simple.

Enjoy the violence...
http://www.sharkonline.org/indexbullfighting.mv

[BikeWriter]

33. They don't tell us not to skin animals to make footballs.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. You skin them alive? (nt)

[BikeWriter]

45. The Spanish don't tell me not to. They're minding their own business...

I wish more people would do that. PeTa for instance.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. Why would they protest something that isn't happening?

On the other hand, plenty of people in other countries protest against, say, the death penalty in the USA.

[BikeWriter]

59. You're comparing people to domestic animals?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. NO, and YOU KNOW that.

Stop being disingenuous.

You are saying that IF a frowned-upon act happens in another country AND it is about animals instead of people THEN people have no business protesting. What a contrived criterium.

[BikeWriter]

69. Disingenious? You compared apples to oranges.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. Humans and animals may not be the same BUT

The RIGHT TO PROTEST AGAINST animal abuse and human abuse IS.

And THAT was my point.

[BikeWriter]

83. That's your opinion, and STOP RAISING YOUR VOICE AT ME!

[leftofthedial]

41. a great tradition OF straight-up animal cruelty

[Midlodemocrat]

46. I remember reading once about

the agonizing death of those animals. Towards the end of the bullfight, the animal's shoulder muscles, (tendons?) are severed so they cannot lift their heads. Nothing sportsmanlike about that if you ask me.

[Shell Beau]

73. That is terrible! Really terrible. Where is the sport in that?

[Zomby Woof]

76. It is an art, NOT a sport

It is more akin to opera than soccer, if an analogy is to be made.

Although they are not to my taste, I refuse to have an American superiority complex about it. Imposing my cultural norms is arrogance, and would serve no other purpose than to make me feel good about myself.

I do root for the bulls, if only to give my cultural norm some breathing room. But I will not look down my nose otherwise.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Not "American" cultural norms. Civilized people's norms.

Many Spaniards are dead set against this too. Me included. Are they "un-Spanish?"

[Shell Beau]

85. I don't look at it as being an American.

I simply look at it as cruel to the bulls. I have not ever spoken out about it except in this poll where the question was asked.

[flvegan]

81. Tradition? Bah. Dogfighting and cockfighting are "tradition" as well.

Violence and cruelty shouldn't be acceptable simply because it's performed in the name of tradition.

[cheeseit]

84. Very well said n/t

[barb162]

94. ditto

[BikeWriter]

105. You can reject it, but that is your decision, no one else's.

[flvegan]

113. So you support, say, the tradition of dogfighting?

Would it also be fair to suggest that you support other, various traditions, be they in regards to animals or humans (or both)?

[BikeWriter]

114. I don't "support" dogfighting any more than I support boxing.

They are both brutal killing "sports."

[flvegan]

115. I asked if you supported the tradition of dogfighting, not

the "sport" itself. There was another question there, too...

[BikeWriter]

116. I'm okay with traditions. I personally find dog fighting distasteful...

I won't tell you how to treat your own dog or your chicken though.

[WeRQ4U]

92. I don't like it, but I accept it as a cultural norm.

Just like rodeo cowboys hog tying and calf roping. I don't really enjoy watching it, and wouldnt' do it myself. But I know that it is part of a culture much older than my own.

It is sad to watch though, I'll give you that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

96. I accept driving on the left or the cyrillic alphabet as cultural norms.

Slowly torturing an animal to death doesn't quite make the cut.

[WeRQ4U]

98. Rad. I still do though. Sorry.

[barb162]

95. It is disgusting, horrible animal cruelty and I have to wonder

about the people who watch this as "entertainment"

[4_Legs_Good]

99. I cheer for the bulls every time and hope the matadors get gored

mauled, stomped, mooshed, and then the bull runs "rabid" through the crowd injuring everyone in attendance (though maybe stoping short of killing them) and then escapes into the countryside finds a nice cow or two (or three) who think he's hot and lives the good life on a green hill with some flowers and birds...

How's that?

david

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

101. Kick

for the nightime crowd.

:kick:

[dhinojosa]

102. Hell I root for the broncos and bulls at our U.S. rodeos.

and when the cowboys break their necks or whatever they get no pity from me.

[4_Legs_Good]

104. Awesome!

:)

david

[cheeseit]

112. Sir, I salute you!

You've described my feelings on the subject better than i ever could.

:applause: :toast:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

103. It's really easy for people to sit here and say it's animal cruelty.

And I would mostly agree with those people about it's cruel nature...

But how many of these people understand the significant impact that bullfighting has had on Spanish culture? It has distinct Greek and Roman religious roots (based out of Mithraism, practiced heavily during the Roman Empire), bull sacrifice was commonplace in these religions. The Moors eventually imported the ritual of bull sacrifice into Spain, evolving into a huge Spanish tradition.

Many of the people in this thread have approached this issue from a very ethnocentric point of view. It is very easy to sit comfortably in your American shoes and say it's cruel... I don't think that a majority of you grasp just how difficult it is to give up years of tradition. Bullfighting may eventually become a thing of the past, but it will take time. Already, bullfighting in Spain has been heavily regulated because of pressure from animal rights groups. Based on everything I've seen/read/heard about bullfighting and it's heavily growing opposition (in Mexico, most do not support bullfighting, and in California, bloodless versions have become popular in the Hispanic community), it's only a matter of time before this piece of their culture is gone.

[BikeWriter]

107. Considering bull fighting has been an important part of Spanish...

culture for thousands of years who is to say it has not played a crucial role? After all, it is American society that is invading innocent countries and is killing innocents by the thousands.

[Zomby Woof]

108. I love you Maggie

The most sensible post yet on this issue.

Ethnocentric... that is exactly what I was getting at in my little missive. A nation which makes up only 4% of the world's population yet uses over 70% of its resources has little room to call other cultures barbaric. That goes for those sitting on their little laptops (made with plastic which requires oil to produce) angrily pecking away with sanctimonious indignation. Barbarism takes many forms.

Have an Oreo! :-)

[WhollyHeretic]

109. I just don't see why I can't say this is cruel just because

it's a different culture. Cruelty is cruelty no matter the culture. I criticize cruelty here in America and I'll criticize cruelty in other countries.

I try to understand other cultures but that does not mean I can't find fault with them. In Saudi Arabia several years ago a school was burning and girls were trying to get out but they didn't have their faces covered so they were pushed back into the school. Am I not supposed to be outraged by that because it is a longtime part of the culture?

[Zomby Woof]

110. That's extremely specious

Comparing burning girls in a fundmentalist Muslim culture with... bullfighting.

It isn't even apples and oranges. It's pears and concrete.

Subtext and history are really important when considering cultural differences.

[WhollyHeretic]

111. Mutilating animals is cruelty not culture

I'm not saying they were the same thing I'm just trying to point out that saying no one can criticize another culture is ridiculous. If you want to defend bullfighting, fine but you can't say people not of the culture can't disagree with it.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

120. I don't think I said that

I said most people criticizing bullfighting are coming at it from a very ethnocentric angle. If you want to criticize it, fine, but take into account the cultural aspects of it before you do.

[WhollyHeretic]

121. Sorry about that, looking at it now I see that I did twist your words

I really do apologize about that. I was a little grumpy last night, I couldn't sleep and I am stressed out about a big job interview I have tomorrow.
I do stand behind the point that cultural traditions is no excuse for cruelty.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

123. It's okay

:) it happens.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. It's like an infected appendix.

It's a piece that HAS to be gone.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

125. I agree with you

Just trying to get people to look at it from another angle :shrug:

[neweurope]

117. I read a long article about the Spanish bull fights.

They are supposed to be a holy tradition damn near as old as mankind and a celebration of death and what not. OK, I thought. Then I watched one. A provincial one... not the most skilled people. And it was terrible. Slaughter would have been so much better because so much quicker. It was a sadistic, slow, clumsy affair. My heart went out to those poor animals who couldn't understand what was happening to them. I'll never forget it and I think it HAS TO BE outlawed. Fuck tradition.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Catchawave]

118. I root for the bull........