Now that RoeVWade is closer to death, let's talk "The Handmaid's Tale"

[LynneSin]

I always thought this was a work of fiction, but I'm starting to think this might be our future!

:scared:

[maxsolomon]

1. might?

we're already there.

[havocmom]

3. Yep. I expect women to find their ATM and debit cards don't work

any time now.

[SCDem]

2. Wasn't the "Snowflake Babies"

The first chapter of the American Handmaidens Tale? :shrug:

If no one saw that and made the connection I'm afraid they'll never notice the reality mirroring fiction (a type of science fiction at that).

[Cerridwen]

7. Interesting - I was just doing some research on this very thing.

Snowflakes Frozen Embryo Adoption Program (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050524-12.html)


"Embryo-adoption programs developed from the belief that an embryo is already a human being, needing only a womb to bring it into the world." (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20050527-21353400-bc-us-frozenembryos.xml emphasis mine).

Ayup, ya gotcher womb all ready to go?

With the advent of modern reproductive technologies, you think we'll still have to go through that whole "impregnation ceremony?"





:banghead:

[SCDem]

9. Nope no ceremony

and the masses of people protesting and marching for Stem Cell Research to improve the quality of life for those already born will be shunned and be banned from media.

[Cerridwen]

15. It it's not already happening -

One of my links was from the whitehouse.gov web site promoting the Snowflake Program.

This link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/query.html?col=colpics&qt=stem+cell+research&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
is the search result looking for anything pro-stem cell research and results in the majority of matches being about the Snowflake Program.

All's quiet on the Whitehouse front.


:grr:


Wonder if they'll start with pro-stem cell research marchers as the inital handmaids? Time to watch for buses.

[Taverner]

4. Beyond future

I think it's the fundies blueprint.

There has been a war against women for years now...and in the past 6 years the bad guys have won a lot of ground.

[fudge stripe cookays]

5. So any of us with records at a center,

prepare to hear knocks at our doors soon for being "undesirables". It's been awhile for me. What was it that they called those jaded women again?

FSC

[Taverner]

6. I forgot, but also we on DU will be branded political prisoners

And then executed for being rapists...

[Democracy White]

58. Dude!!! Don't say that!!!

I have had dreams of this happening!!! The DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND POLITICAL DETENTION CENTER!!!

Also "political hospitals" that change ideologies of liberals, you have a choice of changing or going to a detention center.

[LynneSin]

12. From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale

Subjugation of women
In Gilead, women are stripped of their independence. They are no longer allowed to hold property, arrange their own affairs, read, wear make-up, or choose their clothes. Women are segregated into categories, and dressed according to their social function. There are five legitimate categories (Wives, Aunts, Marthas, Handmaids, and Econowives), and two illegitimate functional categories (Unwomen and prostitutes).


WivesSocially accepted and promoted categories of women in Gilead Wives are at the top social level permitted to women. They are women married to the Commanders who are the ruling circle of the new military dictatorship. They are often infertile for unknown reasons, possibly related to an unexplored ecological disaster or effects of a bioweapon. Wives dress in blue coloured suits.
Daughters are the natural or adopted children of Wives, and though not mentioned perhaps also of Econowives. They wear white until marriage (at 14). Offred's daughter had been adopted by one of the Wives who are infertile.
Aunts have the duty of training and monitoring the Handmaids. In return they receive — relatively speaking — a substantial degree of personal autonomy. It is a central organisational element of Gilead that women be used in the social repression of women. Aunts dress in brown suits.
A Handmaid is a fertile woman whose social function is bear children for the Wives. Handmaids are subjected to a monthly reproductive ritual derived from the biblical story of Rachel and Leah's reproductive competition (Genesis 29:31–35; 30:1–24). Handmaids dress in a red habit with a white head-dress which obscures their peripheral vision. The Aunt system produces Handmaids, by reeducating fertile women who have broken Gileadean gender laws. Due to the demands of Wives for fertile Handmaids, Gilead gradually increased the number of gender-crimes. Additionally, the Aunt system promotes the role of Handmaid, and seeks to legitimise the role of Handmaid by removing any association with gender-criminality.
Marthas are infertile women whose compliant nature and domestic skills recommend them to a life of domestic servitude in the houses of the elite. There is conjectural evidence that Marthas may be African Americans (in the chapter "Shopping"), reflecting a long tradition of the American elite using black slaves and domestic workers as house servants. Marthas dress in green smocks.
Econowives are women who have married low ranking bureaucrats. Econowives are expected to perform all the female functions: domestic duties, companionship, child-bearing. Econowives' dress is multicoloured: red, blue and green to reflect their multiple roles.
The division of labour between women engenders resentment between categories. Marthas, Wives and Econowives perceive Handmaids as sluttish, although Econowives also resent Handmaids' freedom from domestic work.

[AmandaRuth]

16. as i added to my message below

I think from now on I shall refer to Jane Marie as Ofrobert.

[mcscajun]

55. Jezebels and "unwomen"

from Wikipedia:

Outside of society exist two further classes of women.

1. Jezebels. Informally, the desires of Commanders for mistresses — as in the former times — has resulted in an illegal and collective form of prostitution available only to Commanders. The women who populate this system are informally known as Jezebels. These women are housed in the remains of a hotel from former times, and are used by Commanders to entertain foreign dignitaries. Jezebels dress in the remnants of sexualized costumes from "the time before": cheerleaders' costumes, school uniforms, and Playboy bunny costumes.

2. Unwomen are sterile women, widows, feminists, lesbians, and politically dissident women confined to the Colonies (both areas of agricultural production, and sites of deadly pollution). Unwomen as a category embraces all women (and some men) unable to fit within the Republic of Gilead's gender categories. Unlike members of society who transgress and break fundamental rules (who are murderously punished), unwomen are categorically incapable of social integration as their society rejects them utterly. Males who engage in homosexuality (or related acts) are either executed, or declared unwomen and sent to the colonies. All unwomen, male or female, wear grey dresses.

[KamaAina]

8. Also check out Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Talents"

America in the near future is beset by social and environmental catastrophe. An Asscroft clone named Jarret has been elected pResident under the banner of "Christian America". Our heroine has set up a commune called Acorn, built around a belief system called Earthseed ("God is change.") -- but then the Christian America boys show up and slap collars that cause unbearable pain on everyone, and proceed to rape and pillage.

The men, of course, are taken to be re-educated as good "Christian Americans" -- but of course no such redemption is available to the "fallen women".

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[havocmom]

19. Heinlein also wrote several novels about an alternate world where the US

is under theocratic rule. The man was WAY ahead of his time.

Am just starting one of his books I have not read yet... about living on the fringe in a post-apocalyptic world. Figure there might be some tips for our, ah, retirement years coming up soon and looking to be a very radical lifestyle by today's norms, but only a few steps further down the path Havocdad and I have been on for some time.

[tigereye]

35. I find Butler fascinating!

I had never heard of her until a few years ago. There was a great interview with her that Charlie Rose did.

[Cerridwen]

10. Aw, now, it won't be so bad...

overturning Roe will just make it a states' rights issue. And the federal government is so good at honoring and acknowledging states' rights, as evidenced by the whole California medical marijuana issue.

:sarcasm:


So, ya think at 47 I'm too old for the "walking womb" brigade? Or maybe mine will be used for some "lower" functionaries?


:nuke:

[AmandaRuth]

11. yeah this was my thought after reading that

she who must not be named had adopted children and was actively involved in causes advocating government control over our bodies.


I also had the HT feeling when I read about the prosecutor of whatever state that repeatedly tried for access to planned parenthood records so he could go on a fishing expedition to find his own personal witch to burn (daughter of a prominent dem only please).

I don't think things will unfold exactly like HT, we will have a little of Oyrx and Crake (sp?) in there too.

I lose sleep over stuff like this.

On edit - I think from now on I will refer to Jane Marie as Ofrobert

[terrya]

13. It's a terrifying future.

Margaret Atwood wrote one of the scariest books ever written.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the "Republic of Gilead" (the former United States) came into being after a national emergency.

[MountainLaurel]

14. Read an anecdote once

That when Atwood went on tour after the release of the book, the reactions in the different countries was interesting. In the UK, those attending book signings made comments like, "Excellent science fiction story plot, and the writing was excellent." In Canada, the reaction was "Damn, that's some scary stuff." In the U.S., people asked "How much longer do we have?"

[Squeech]

17. Maybe

First, let me quote myself from a thread on GD:

"First of all, it's correct that overturning Roe returns the question to the states, who will decide as they wish.

"Secondly, while Roe preserves the right to an abortion on paper, it does not do so in practice. There are scads of jurisdictions, including I believe some entire states (all of them red, to nobody's great surprise), where a poor pregnant woman couldn't find a doctor willing and able to perform an abortion. Many doctors in needy communities have abandoned OB/GYN practices for reasons that have nothing to do with the law. For one thing, OB/GYN is the second most expensive specialty for malpractice coverage. For another, there are places where being known as an abortion provider can endanger your life. Moreover, medical schools tend not to teach their students how to do a D&C any more, possibly because of the previous consideration.

"So I would suggest that the status quo is sufficiently dire that overturning Roe wouldn't make things any worse."

Okay. That said, I don't think we're heading toward the Republic of Gilead-- there'd be too much opposition among the libertarians and corporatists in the Republican tent to allow a full blown theocracy, in my not very humble opinion. What I see as more likely is that the non-legal barriers to abortion on demand, like those cited above, will continue to grow-- and so will similar sanctions against the various forms of contraception. Think about those pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control pills for random religious reasons, and now think about how their businesses are also where one shops for things like diaphragms and the spermicidal jelly they require.

The other thing I'm thinking about is yet another thread, where the question was asked whether the women in Dubya's life would get mad at him if Roe went away. To me, the answer is obvious: they live in the bubble with him, and as such it wouldn't affect them in any way. If Jenna came home knocked up, they'd just plan another shopping trip to Paris, and she'd go to a tony European clinic-- maybe even the same one where Keith Richard gets his blood changed. And I think this state of affairs would suit our ruling class just fine-- that the law should apply equally to all of us who can't buy our way out of it.

All of which is a long way of saying, I don't see a Handmaid's Tale in our future, I see something more like 1984-- a technologically-enabled dystopia with an obviously super-privileged upper class. But you and I are just as severely screwed.

[Child_Of_Isis]

20. "an obviously super-privileged upper class"

Yup!

[rosesaylavee]

53. Hmmmm why doesn't that

make me feel any better? Maybe if we are lucky, another country will swoop in and turn us into a democracy.

[fudge stripe cookays]

60. Jenna has made that shopping trip.

According to SS at the Federal Building in Austin. (I used to work there and know people who know people).

But of course, it will never come out, because those people will probably always be too terrified to say anything.

FSC

[redqueen]

18. Not mine.

I'd sooner leave.

[Cerridwen]

21. Kick n/t

[NMMNG]

22. Pfft. I'd have my reproductive organs ripped out first n/t

[Misunderestimator]

27. Then you get to be a maid or a cook.

:)

[NMMNG]

64. Better than being a sex slave and incubator for some man's baby

Some forms of subjugation I could endure, some I couldn't.

[caty]

23. There are 145 million women in the U.S and

139 million males. If women ( who have not been brainwashed by the r.w.) voted for their best interests, and men voted for women's rights in their best interests, we might have a chance. A big problem is that not every one who is eligible votes. Hopefully, seeing their rights disappear right in front of them, will get them to the polls. And, hopefully we can find a way to have honest elections instead of "stealections".

[dbt]

24. 'Scuze me, but why is this not on the Greatest page?

The Handmaid's Tale scared me WAY worse than 1984 ever thought about! Can I get two more votes?

[Cerridwen]

25. I added my vote to yours and one other - 3 votes it is

Thanks for reminding me.

:toast:

[WCGreen]

26. That book, and the Movie, were so creepily realistic to me..

A white male, when I read it about 20 years ago, that the effect has never left me....

I have posted about this book and told people to read it since 1992 when I first left the Green PArty to rejoin the democrats.......

One of my firsts post on BartCop was about this book back in 2001...

It's scary, it's realistic and somethng like this could very wll happen....

If you want to get a feel for the biblical mentalitiy that spawns this awful subjecgation of women, read the Red Tent......

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

29. You're so right, The Red Tent is a stunning book.

Perfect companion piece to Handmaid's Tale...the past and future. MKJ

[mopinko]

28. it was intended to show the future

and margaret atwood hit the nail on the head. we can debate the extent to which the nutjobs will accomplish their mission, but i think it is a perfectly accurate picture of the future they would like to impose.
i think as long as the internet remains free, we will be able to fight back. but they do know that. and we see they are trying.
the movie was one of those rare ones where the book was very well served. scares me to think about it.

[rosesaylavee]

30. You all need a strong dose of Sherri Tepper ... today if not sooner

If you haven't already - pick up a copy of her 'Gateway to Women's Country' and most importantly 'FRESCO' which surprisingly was published in 2000. Always wondered if it was in direct response to Bush and Company or if she is just psychic. But this are both highly recommended reads if you like your SF/Fantasy to include new positive (and funny in the Fresco) vision of the future. Women are the heroines in both and there are some - not many - intelligent men in there too.

[LynneSin]

31. I'll have to check those out, there were several good books mentioned, btw

welcome to DU :hi:

[rosesaylavee]

32. Thanks - Sherri Tepper has some great

ideas on how things should work in our society.

Handsmaid Tale gave me nightmares for years. I finally donated my copy to the library this past winter as I realized I still remembered the story and it was highly unlikely I would read it again. Don't get me wrong, it is an incredible book - I just don't want to give it any more energy than I have already. Glad I read it as I now know what I don't want the future to hold!

[LynneSin]

33. Let's just hope I get out of my breeder abilities by the time it happens

that's about another decade. I could still pop them out for the republic if forced into it but I know I wouldn't want those types of family raising my flesh & blood!

[FizzFuzz]

63. I wonder how many DU men can or ar willing to try to take a moment

and put themselves in women's shoes.

And then ask themselves how seriously they take our lives and how far they would go to join in the fight. We women have got some serious fight on our hands, looks like.

:worried:

[Terran]

34. Tepper is great

I'm a huge fan of hers. She's written some truly fascinating fiction centering around gender roles and alternatives to what we see in our own world. I particularly admire her inhabitants of Hobb's Land in "Raising the Stones" for their very rational societal organization; and the society of "Six Moon Dance" is fascinating.

http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/tepper.html

[tigereye]

36. love Tepper!

she's great! ;hi:

[kimpossible]

41. This and others shortlisted for the James Tiptree Jr. award

The James Tiptree Jr. Memorial Award for speculative fiction that explores gender roles, in its first year of 1991, put out an honorary list of works from previous years.

http://www.tiptree.org/retro/short.html

The Handmaid's Tale and Octavia Butler's Wild Seed were both on the shortlist for the "retrospective" award.

Tiptree (a.k.a. Alice Sheldon) herself wrote a long list of fiction that's all worth reading.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/tiptree1.html

[khashka]

61. Gateway To Women's Country

Should be required reading for everyone.

I worship the ground Sherri Tepper walks on.

Khash.

[FizzFuzz]

62. Good, thank you, I need something positive

right about now.

:scared:

Putting this one on my booklist. (along with the 200 others. ;) )

[wildflower]

37. Been saying for a while it's time to start practicing our new greeting:

"Blessed be the fruit..."

[MindPilot]

38. Read it three or four times, and it sent me on a five-year stint

of working on clinic defense.

I aways was hoping for a sequel which would explain how the society go to that point. Christ on a stick, I just wanted to read about it; I didn't want to freakin' live it!

[kimpossible]

39. Yes, I've been having "Handmaid's Tale" moments for months now

But I think there's one thing she got wrong in the book - makeup and fashion won't be prohibited. Too much corporate profit would go down the drain.

:yoiks:

[sandnsea]

40. Ladies, this is THE WRONG DAMNED APPROACH

I'll get the list together, but there are NUMEROUS Supreme Court cases on Roe that have proclaimed it SETTLED LAW. We need to get those cases together, gather pertinent quotes, and get it into the heads of the American people that Roe is LAW. Andy judge who doesn't agree with case after case after case of settled law, isn't fit to be on the Supreme Court. It isn't enough to say he'd uphold it, he has to weigh in on each of these cases and take a stand. But WE need to know all the details of these cases in order to effectively advocate for Roe and stop letting their be any notion that it can be overturned. Kind of like Brown v. Board and civil rights decisions, they're law, end of story.

That's what I think anyway.

[barbaraann]

42. Counting votes was settled law, too.

And Gore v. Bush obliterated it.

[sandnsea]

44. This is too important for such stupidity

That isn't even a logical argument.

Abortion is legal in the US, it's settled law in case after case. We need to shove this down the throat of every single person in this country. Make this as stupid as talking about whether women have the right to vote.

[barbaraann]

45. It is settled law that no American can be held without charges.

And Jose Padilla is still being held.

They are truly capable of unprecedented extra-legal actions.

[sandnsea]

47. Old law wasn't overturned

New law was created, for a specific purpose.

People don't even understand that Roe is as much settled law as integration. We have to stop playing defense all the time. It's time to draw a line, knock some heads together, and flat say "there is no debate on this topic". Abortion is a matter of a constitutional liberty to make decisions about ones body, end of story.

[barbaraann]

49. Well, I disagree with your idea that they can't overturn Roe but agree

that the focus on Roe is not the right way to go about fighting the GOP.

The problem is that so many Americans just cannot relate to a fight for constitutional liberties because they are uninformed, but can relate to a fight for abortion rights because that hits home more.

If we people don't understand how important civil liberties are the rightwingers will just nibble away at Roe through side issues like parental consent and the right to privacy will become meaningless even with Roe not overturned.

Hope this makes sense. :-)

[sandnsea]

51. We need to outline Roe more clearly

They are nibbling away at it and I think it's because people don't understand how many cases the Supreme Court has already decided and how many times they've said Roe is decided law. I think we should fight from a position of established authority on Roe, and go forward. Instead of Roe being the last vestige, and trying to fend off litte assaults before they get to Roe. It clearly isn't working anyway.

[shoanete]

43. One of the best books I ever read.

Also Highly recommend The Gate to Womens Country.
Tepper has some interesting ideas about relations between the sexes.
I love all of her work that I have read.
I also am glad to be almost out of my reproductive years but I have three daughters! WE MUST FIGHT THIS!


To the last breath........ :mad:

[rosesaylavee]

54. If I remember Tepper's Fresco correctly

there is an interesting but very satisfying payback that happens to congressmen who opposed abortion in the story. That's all I will say. You want to laugh hard this weekend, you gotta read it.

[noonwitch]

46. I'm too old to have babies, but please don't send me to clean up toxic

waste! I can cook!
I'm not too old to have babies, really, but too old to be reliable for surrogacy purposes.

[mcscajun]

57. Doesn't matter if we can cook...

...too many of us are: "... feminists, lesbians, and politically dissident women..." therefore, Unwomen.

[ellie]

48. I read that book

about 15 years ago. The one thing that stayed with me was the scene where the main character (can't remember her name) is looking out the window at the man's wife in the garden. She remarks that she can't believe that all of these high-profile women fought so hard so they could return to the kitchen. That's what I think of when I read about these right wing women lecturing on how the woman's place is in the home. Do they really want that? Because that is where they will end up! Someone on another thread said that RW women were just dickless males. I have to agree. It's good for everyone else but not for them.

[north houston dem]

52. makes you wonder don't it?

I really think that they all think THEY will be the exception to the rule.
HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[khashka]

50. You've been naive

It was always prophetic. And a warning and a cry in the wilderness.

A girl needs a gun these days on account of those rattlesnakes....

Khash.

[fudge stripe cookays]

59. Nice...

Lloyd Cole reference.

FSC,
loves Lloyd

[NNadir]

56. I've been thinking that for some time. Duvall was Cheney-like in the film