Film admirers: Just admit that Steven Spielberg's the best, OK?

[DerekG]

Whenever movies are discussed on this board, the work of one Steven Spielberg is often ignored or dismissed.

Quite odd since he's the best American director of the 20th century. Alfred Hitchcock? Not one of his suspense or horror films (Psycho, The Birds, Frenzy) is as unnerving as Jaws.

Billy Wilder or Howard Hawks? As disparate in tone as their films are, no one has managed to juggle horror, science fiction, adventure, drama, the war movie, and comedy (he finally nailed it with Catch Me If You Can) with the craftsmanship Spielberg did.

His work too sentimental for ya? Apart from the maudlin 1983-1991 period, his films are imbued with an emotional honesty. If you think that's a big chunk of time, then ask yourself whether or not Orson Welles produced anything as earth-shattering as his Citizen Kane?

It pisses a lot of people off that Spielberg can produce masterpieces that grab accolades from the masses and then concoct a film as intimate and haunting as Schinder's List. He's the High School quarterback and captain of the chess club all in one.

Now just try to prove me wrong before you go back to your Bergman films!

[Nailzberg]

1. I can prove you wrong-

1941.

[picus9]

9. Don't forget

Jurassic park II, AI

[Nailzberg]

15. and Hook, and Temple of Doom, and

the Kick the Can segment in Twilight Zone the Movie.

Spielberg has had some great flicks in his career. But he's a hit-or-miss director, and frankly, that's pretty bad when the elite of Hollywood writing hands you golden screenplays. With the material he is given, he should be better.

(I may have just ended my career.)

[DerekG]

23. Those were disappointing movies...

Hence the 1983-1991 mention.

[Nailzberg]

27. Well, if he's gonna be the best, you can't gloss over a decade.

Lost World was 1997, and 1941 was in 1979, so really he's been hit or miss pretty much always. Hmm. "Always". That reminds me of a another mishandled script.

[Terran]

103. 8 years of crappy films

I'm afraid that disqualifies him from being the best director of the 20th century. I can think of half a dozen I think are better and more consistent. And Frank Capra did sentimentality better than Spielberg ever did.

[DerekG]

109. "Crappy", no...

Empire of the Sun, The Color Purple and the two Indy sequels were disappointing, but hardly crappy.

[Terran]

122. Actually I like both those films a lot

Empire of the Sun and The Color Purple. It's the rest of his output during that time I don't care for.

[bif]

13. 1941=one of the worst

movies I've ever seen. couldn't wait to get out of the theatre. What a waste of film. Utter piece of garbage.

[Nailzberg]

17. Although I thought Robert Stack was great in it.

Other than that, complete garbage.

[thebigidea]

2. he's the marshallow syrup on the sundae of cinema

his movies depress me. Sugary swill.

[Bertha Venation]

8. "Sugary Swill" -- yes, I suppose "Schindler's List" was too saccharine.

:eyes:

[thebigidea]

10. so one overpraised movie makes up for a career of boredom?

the only flick of his I've liked was "DUEL" - downhill from there.

I have one word that will dismiss and Schindler glow...

One word...

brace yourself:

HOOK.

Q.E.D.

[Bertha Venation]

16. different strokes, bud. eom

[ThorsteinVeblen]

48. I supposed you liked "Barry Lyndon"?

[thebigidea]

50. it had its moments, but DOCTOR STRANGELOVE

is the one that Kubrick will be remembered for.

Never get tired of watching that.

so what does Spielberg have to match it? 1941?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

63. Schindlers List

Will be remembered as long as Dr. Strangelove - and much longer than "Eyes Wide Shut"

[thebigidea]

65. Eyes Wide Shut was crap - but wait till Spielberg's final film

Imagine the pain!

Imagine the joy, knowing he's gone!

[mitchum]

119. because "there's no business like Shoah business" according...

to an Isreali scholar who was appalled by Speilberg's willingness to sentimentalise even the Holocaust

[Wetzelbill]

56. I have never been more disappointed in a movie than when I watched

Barry Lyndon.

Although, I couldn't stand Kill Bill either. Bloated egofest.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

68. Do you know why you were disappointed?

Because both of those movies SUCKED DICK.

Whereas I am sure you enjoyed Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jaws, ET, Saving Private Ryan and Schindlers List.

[mitchum]

115. I agree with you about "Duel"...

it's the only film of his I enjoy.
Speilberg is a treacly shitmeister

[Robb]

3. A.I.

...Sixteen hours of my life I'll never get back.

[Nailzberg]

5. I forgot that one

My therapist says it's common to repress such tramatic memories.

4. what a temptation -- I'll bite

"After In Praise of Love's screening at this year's Cannes Film Festival, someone asked Jean-Luc Godard what he thought of Steven Spielberg. Godard, puffing on a cigar, replied: "I don't know him personally. I don't think his films are very good." Brash, yes, but Godard’s opinion is not necessarily a unique one. This is Godard on Spielberg's Schindler's List: "It is strange, he had no idea about the Holocaust so he went and looked elsewhere for inspiration. When we don't have an idea about something, we look first of all within ourselves." http://www.slantmagazine.com/film/film_review.asp?ID=216

"Back in 1999, Emilie Schindler, the widow of Oskar Schindler, sued Steven Spielberg in hopes of collecting 6% of the box office receipts for Schindler's List. In her suit, she stated that her importance in the saving of the Jews working at Schindler's factory overshadowed her husbands. Thus, she was more deserving of monetary payment than Thomas Keneally, who wrote the novel Schindler's List from historical fact based on the life of Oskar Schindler. Most people took this as an unfortunate occurrence: while Emilie Schindler, who died in 2001, certainly deserves some credit for her work with her husband, her attempt to belittle his achievement and collect money from Spielberg as a form of restitution was taken as a sad attempt by her to capitalize on what that film collected.

But not everyone sees Emilie Schindler's accusations of Spielberg's greediness as opportunistic. Jean-Luc Godard, so disgusted by the idea that Schindler only received $50,000 for the movie, decided to have a Spielberg proxy as the antagonist in his latest opus In Praise of Love. "
http://www.cinema-scene.com/archive/volume-5-number-05.html

Who is this Godard character? Does he know anything about film?

[thebigidea]

11. ah, he made the glorious Alphaville with Eddie Constantine

frustrating, hilarious, painful, weird as hell but at least original movie.

Surrealist poetry by Paul Eluard destroys a totalitarian computer!

old Universal Monster Movie bit players cough and hack in rooms lit by a single lightbulb!

a really annoying French voice pontificates for what seems like hours via an oscillating fan!

much funnier than any of Spielberg's crap.

20. more Alphaville

....manages to make Paris look like some futuristic very scary place without using special effects or sets, just genius.
What a movie.

[thebigidea]

24. yeah, I thought that was the most brilliant bit

just simple props and sets, it shouldn't work, but it DOES!

[emulatorloo]

22. More glorious Godard

Breathless - so hip and cool
Weekend - great satire of bourgeous France
Contempt - Bardot, Jack Palance, Fritz Lang and beautiful wide screen

[thebigidea]

26. Fritz Lang is hilarious in CONTEMPT

most people probably just rent it for those Bardot scenes.

"Damnit, we hired her and we're going to film her butt - I don't care if the audience isn't ready for 11 minutes of it! I say full speed ahead!"

34. and when he

quotes his friend BB in a putdown of Palance.
BB being Bertolt Brecht.
Wish I had a copy of the quote with me.

[dback]

96. Godard is France's "enfant terrible" of new wave cinema

He was very big with "Breathless" and "Weekend" in the 60's; his work since has mostly been one long pretentious "huh?" with the occasional cinematic tantrum thrown in to try to win back audiences and critical favor. The insufferable (and almost equally self-enchanted) Henry Jaglom has also been a prolific Spielberg-basher--though almost all of his works have been dismissed as narcisstic, pretentious navel-gazing.

If these are the best critics Spielberg has, they hold little or no water.

[Bertha Venation]

6. No quarrel from here.

[Kamika]

7. He totally sucks ok

Walkie talkies in ET?? huh huh??.. ok well BYE BYE Mister Spielberg

[vi5]

12. I loathe Spielberg with a passion....

Jaws was a phenomenal movie I will admit. But everything else he has done I have hated, especially when he started in on his "Pleeeeeeasse give me an Oscar phase". He hires some good effects wizards, that's about it.

[thebigidea]

14. re: Orson Welles

yeah, I think TOUCH OF EVIL, THE TRIAL, and F IS FOR FAKE are much better movies than Citizen Kane. Its an interesting, groundbreaking film, but I'll take those three any day.

[Nailzberg]

19. Magnificent Ambersons, too n/t

[Az]

18. Go watch some Kurasawa films and then compare

Spielberg is formulaic. Certainly good formula but formula none the less.

[Garage Queen]

21. You know, that's just what I'd expect a Kucinich supporter to say...

Oops, sorry, wrong thread. That should have been posted in the "generic flame war" thread.

:evilgrin:

[thebigidea]

28. yeah, if you want emotion, "IKIRU" slaps Spielberg

[Wetzelbill]

58. Madadayo too

[DerekG]

30. This is limited to American filmmakers, Az...

Although Hitchcock began his career in England, he didn't remain there for long.

[thebigidea]

31. if you want to talk pure Americana

then Russ Meyer is the best, most completely American director of the 20th century.

40. which America?

south, north?
or the United States?
of
Canada? Mexico? Brazil?

which?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

46. Kurasawa is completely formulatic

That is why Lucas and Spielberg loved him and ripped him off.

If anyone was a one trick pony, Kurasawa was.

[thebigidea]

55. so the original is a one trick pony, but the rip off is pure gold?

weird.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

86. I love Kurasawa

My point is that the things that people criticize Spielberg for are the same things they valorize other directors for. They did the same thing to Htichcock when he was alive. They did the same thing to Mozart when he was alive.

Once Spielberg dies, everyone will be sucking his dick. You watch.

[thebigidea]

90. enough with the cocksucking references, geez!

I'll be alive and dancing on his grave.

Hitchcock never took himself too seriously.

Spielberg does, it makes him laughable.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

92. What you don't like my drugged out sadistic freak

humour?

[thebigidea]

94. the next Jeff Foxworthy, ladies and gentlemen.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

112. That's the word...

Formulaic. You nailed it. A friend of mine calls him "emotionally manipulative". I don't know whether I agree with that completely, given what other great directors have done in the past. Nonetheless, he's very gifted. I hope to see greater things from him, I think he has it in him. BTW, I think "blockbuster" when I think of the general body of his work. Prejudiced? Maybe.
I haven't seen all his films either (most but not all).

[TheBlob]

25. OK

Jaws, Close Encounters and Raiders of the Lost Ark will still be remembered 100 years from now.....and so will their director.

Sure he's churned out some crap since then, but who hasn't?
People won't appreciate how valuable Spielberg was until he's gone.

[thebigidea]

29. I look at your post, and imagine David Cross saying those words

then he stops, smiles, and goes into a riff about how "HOOK" will be worshipped by future religions.

By the way, go run out and get his new DVD if you haven't already! F'tang, its great!

[TheBlob]

32. Yeah, I don't see that happening.

The DVD on the other hand is on my list.

[ACK]

61. Close Encounters remembered 100 years from now?!?

You are joking right?

Come on.

Maybe Schindler's List but Close Encounters or even Raiders of the Lost Ark? No way. Raiders and Close Encounters were entertaining movies with completely no further depth.

You want to punch out an example of Spielberg at his best you made some silly choices. Jaws was one very good film and I will agree with that.

However, in the grand scheme of things if Spielberg that attention coveting whore is all that we can look too for greatness in cinema then the art of film-making has truly gone down the toilet.

Dissing on Hitchcock? Come one Psycho was a really fun film. What about Vertigo or even Rear Window?

Excellent films.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

77. Raiders of the Lost Ark is easily the greatest film

of the 1980's. It will be remembered for hundreds of years. It is in the top 10 of the best films ever made. Period.

I love Hitchcock, my argument is that Spielberg is the Hitchcock of today. But don't tell me North by Northwest
a) has moral weight
b) suffers as a film because it has no moral weight


People called Hitchcock candy-ass, trite, shallow throughout his entire career. Now that he is dead, he is genius. Same thing with Mozart. Same thing with Spielberg.

[thebigidea]

78. so you're saying RAIDERS has moral weight?

was it the moral clarity of Indy shooting that guy who pulled the sword?

paging Bill Bennett

[ThorsteinVeblen]

82. No, I am saying that "moral weight" has nothing to do

with the quality of a film. Period.

I bet you think the Wizard of Oz is a shitty film. Dontcha?

[thebigidea]

87. I don't like morals or messages in movies, I like to be transported away

I want escapism and don't want to be reminded that I'm watching a movie. That happens when i'm jolted out of it by some maudlin Spielbergian technique or paint by the numbers plot that is figured out in the first 5 minutes.

Wizard of Oz bores me because I've seen it dozens of times under schoolroom circumstances. I like the original novels and there's some hilarious work in the movie that I can appreciate...

I like the moral weight of the Lollipop Guild. I enjoy the moral clarity of flying monkeys.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

89. So you think Dr. Stangelove sucks?

And that damn moral message in all of Kapras and Wilders movies.

I bet you like Blade Runner:

Why?

a) it's moral message
b) it's art direction
c) both

[thebigidea]

93. i don't mind a message when its wrapped in brilliant comedy

spielberg can't accomplish that with 1941.

[TheBlob]

108. Joking?

About Close Encounters?
Not at all. Not only is it consistently listed as being among his best films, it very well may turn out to be his most prophetic.
(But that's a different discussion altogether)
;-)

[emulatorloo]

33. Don't Forget the horrid adaptation of The Color Purple

I don't dislike him, he tries really hard, but sometimes his movies seem shallow and manipulative.

Let's take the directors you compared him to.

Here are films by each one of them that present a complex world w complex emotions and characters that I think you will really enjoy.

Hitchcock - Vertigo
Billy Wilder - Ace in the Hole
Howard Hawks - To Have and Have Not
Orson Welles - Touch of Evil

All worth a rental

[ThorsteinVeblen]

39. The problem with Welles

is that he is all style over substance.

"Touch of Evil" would've have been good if I had given a shit about the characters. Charelton Heston absolutley SUCKED in that movie. Yes, like Citizen Cane, it was incredibly innovative and made greats leaps in the craft of movie making, but I would never buy the film and would probably never watch it again. "Touch of Evil" and "Citizen Cane" are the antithesis of movies like Casablanca, Sunset Blvd., Raiders of the Lost Ark and Vertigo all of which I own and watch over and over again marvelling at how involved I get in the charahters and their stories.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

35. No question - Spielberg is the best director alive today.

Period.

Name another and I will shoot you down.

Over the course of his career Spielberg has made more GREAT films than anyone alive today. Remember that Billy Wilder made shit every once in awhile as well.

The same people who hate Spielberg today , hated Hitchcock during the mid 20th century.

Spielberg IS the Hitchcock of today.

Even the people the hate Spielberg will 9 times out of 10 put Raiders of the Lost Ark in their top 5 movies.

Duel
Jaws
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Schindlers List
Saving Private Ryan
Minority Report
The Color Purple
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
E.T.

Even mediocre movies like "Catch me if you Can" and "Jurassic Park" and "Amistad" are incredible compared to the "best" of Hollywood in the last 20 years.

Anyone who denies Spielberg is the best director alive today either
a) doesn't know what they are talking about
b) is too cool to admit that he is the greatest diretor alive today.

[thebigidea]

36. or maybe c) is just left cold by all his work and sees no joy in it

Amistad is strong enough to use as a surgical anaesthetic.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

42. Better than anything else I can think of.

[Nailzberg]

38. He is not the greatest director alive today.

He is handed golden scripts. And he shits them out. Sometimes they sink, sometimes they float. With the scripts he's handed, he should have better results.

Bubble gum cinema. It's stuff for people that want to watch "important movies" but don't want to watch important movies.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

41. Hitchcock was "bubble gum" too.

Do you deny this?

Who do you think the best director alive today is?

[emulatorloo]

43. Hitchcock was a package of Red Hots

Glossy candy exterior, firey burning interior.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

45. North by Northwest an "important" film?

Give me a break. Nothing but candy ass fun and one of my favorite movies.

[Nailzberg]

79. Hitchcock wasn't going for "important"

That's the difference. It doesn't matter what kind of movie you direct. The question is whether or not you do it well. Speilberg is hit or miss in that department. And the reason he is picked apart by the important film folks, is because what he strives for in his work. He made it his standard. He has to reach it. That isn't what Hitchcock went after, so it doesn't matter if he made "important films".

[ThorsteinVeblen]

84. NO HE ISN'T

Most of the time Spielberg isn't going for an "important film".

The point is that Spieberg succeeds at making an important film when he tries (Schindler's List).

The percentage of quality films Speilberg has put out compared to the crap he has put out transcends that of any other director alive today (now that Billy Wilder is dead). Period.

[Nailzberg]

95. And he also fails at it.

Schindlers is gonna get pretty worn out because it's the one Speilberg fans roll out everytime they make this arguement.

He is hit or miss.
Schindlers was good. Never argued it wasn't.

[Nailzberg]

69. Yes, I disagree that Hitchcock was bubblegum cinema

I had a huge post here, but then remembered my job and removed the text.
I'll just say I disagree, and leave it there.

[4323Lopez]

51. Spielberg, is that you....

Ok, we get it, you like him.

[4323Lopez]

52. Spielberg, is that you....

Ok, we get it, you like him.
ooops got a repeat.

[theemu]

101. responses

Duel - not good
Jaws - okay
Raiders of the Lost Ark - okay
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - okay
Schindlers List - good
Saving Private Ryan - terrible
Minority Report - okay
The Color Purple - okay
Close Encounters of the Third Kind - spielberg's best
E.T. - good

[ThorsteinVeblen]

105. Rankings

Duel - Brilliant
Jaws - Brilliant
Radiers of the Lost Ark - Brilliant
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - Excellent
Schindlers List - Brilliant
Saving Private Ryan - Excellent
Minority Report - Excellent
The Color Purple - Excellent
Close Encounters of the Thrid Kind - Brilliant
ET - Brilliant
AI - Not Good
Hook - Terrible
Catch Me if you Can - Good
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Good
1941 - Not Good
Jurassic Park - Good
Always - Good
Lost World - Not Good
Poltergeist - Terrible
Sugerland Express - Good
Amistad - Good

[DerekG]

110. You've lost credibility, theemu...

Anyone who deems Jaws and Raiders of the Lost Ark "okay" wouldn't know a great film from a hole in the wall.

[piece sine]

37. what a slap in the face to STANLEY KUBRICK

the brilliant Mr. Speilberg's mentor, main-man and all-round hero.

Is Steve enormously talented! You betcha. But Stanley wasa seminal, once-in-lifetime director with a truly unique vision. Even the light in Kurbrick's films glow in the most unworldly way. What a loss that he's gone!

[ThorsteinVeblen]

44. Kubrick didn't know anything

about story and thus his movies fall down in a lot of ways.

Kubrick, like Welles, was a stylist. Cool shots, cool moods, cool art design. Unlike Welles, his movies actually have soul.

[Character Assassin]

66. Oh, puh-huh-huh-leeez. He was a 'stylist' like Spielberg is a cartoonist

Paths to Glory. 'nuff said.

Granted, Barry Lyndon is rather lame, but that's about the only one out of his entire catalog.

[thebigidea]

70. or "The Killing" compared to anything Stevie put out

[Character Assassin]

91. Yep. He dispensed with traditional time structure like SB never has.

Plus, it's just a great story.

[piece sine]

107. gentlemen, gentlemen.....

I'm honor-bound to defend Stanley to my dying breath. "Barry Lyndon" was a Gainsborough painting -- not one shot included any artificial light. Zeiss-Ikon lens developed for NASA were used to shoot the evening casino scene in its natural candlelight. Not since Vermeer has an artist captured such shadows as that.

Shall we now praise "Full Metal Jacket" or leave that for another time? Certainly "The Shining" couldn't possibly more freightening! "2001?" I rest my case; game, set, match!

Now I'm sounding arrogant but really, "Dr Strangelove" changed out lives!

Now gimme a second and I'll try to defend "Eyes Wide Shut," an admittedly disappointing commerical effort. And then there's "A Clockwork Orange." Blew everyone's minds. Nobody shocks like that any more. Nobody.

So...comedy, drama, freight, horror, protest, social commentary, futurism, fantasy....and yet there's a claim he can't tell a story! Yikes!

[Guaranteed]

47. Huh?

Uhhh....no. Steven Spielberg is not only NOT the best director of "the 20th Century," as you put it (as opposed to the other three years in which there was moving film). In fact, he isn't even the tenth best.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

53. I said ALIVE TODAY

Not the best of the "20th Century".

He is in the top ten of all time greats though.

[Guaranteed]

127. You said what?

???????????

I was talking to Derek, dude.

[Zolok]

49. He is a mawkish, sentimental hack...

"A.I." was trash from beginning to end...
He had one good movie in him "Schindler's List" and even that had an uplifting ending.
He's like Frank Capra without the thoughtfulness.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

57. People confuse "message" with "talent"

You cannot say Spielberg sucks because you do not like the emotional content of his movies. That is a genre criticism.

That is like saying Metallica sucks because I don't like Heavy Metal - you just look like an idiot because you fail to look at the craft and instead dismiss it because you do not like the emotional content.

Spielberg is the best craftsman in film alive today. Any objective reckoning bears this out. Get beyond yourself - look at it objectively.

[thebigidea]

59. heh

so if you say Jeff Foxworthy sucks, its only because you don't understand the craftsmanship involved in making endless formulaic "you know you're a redneck if..." jokes?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

62. No, but does Jeff Foxworth suck because he is a redneck

or because he just sucks?

Using your logic, David Cross isn't funny unless you are a drugged out, sadistic freak.

Seperate the emotional content from the craft.

[thebigidea]

64. what's not funny about drugged out sadistic freaks?

most of my friends are drugged out sadistic freaks.

my logic still holds.

Spielberg is the "Full House" of film.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

74. Nothing is wrong with DOSF's, but there are

conservative idiots who think there is and thus hate David Cross.

ET has no moral weight? Schindler's List the second coming of the second coming of the Olson Twins? Saving Private Ryan? Minority Report feel good? Jaws the "Full House" of film?

What was 'Amelie' (which I am sure you think it is alright to like because it is French), if not a candy ass, feel good film with no moral weight?

[thebigidea]

76. Amelie was stylish as hell, but not nearly as good as Delicatessen/City of

Lost Children... I was a little bored by it, though.

I hate all the Spielberg movies you listed, especially Minority Report - Phil Dick was an incredible American original and deserved better treatment. Terry Gilliam would've done a better job.

The Moral Weight of ET? Uh? I... I have no response for that.

SPR was swill, yeah. Jaws was an effective drive-in movie, but there are thousands of those.


Spielberg: the Bob Saget of Celluloid.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

80. Why were you bored?

Because the City of Lost Children failed as a film. It should have been a music video. All style, all art direction - no story, no substance.

Delicatessen is fun and quirky but that is all. No substance. No story. No character development. No sense.

Amelie is exponentially better than both those films put together. It is also candy ass.

I bet you think the Wizard of Oz sucks because you don't like the emotional content.

[thebigidea]

83. no, I was bored by Amelie

I was enthralled by "CITY" - like watching a Max Ernst collage or something. Astonishing accomplishment. Makes me really jealous.

"I bet you think the Wizard of Oz sucks because you don't like the emotional content."

No, I think it sucks because I was subjected to it several times a year for a decade in grade school. It has the air of homework to me.

Pay no attention to the Dick behind the curtain...

[Zolok]

124. John Cleese sums it up best:

Mash that dirty red scum, kick 'em in the teeth where it hurts. (commentator rises from his canvas chair, and flails about wildly, waving script, kicking over table, knocking down sunshade) Kill! Kill! Kill! The filthy bastard commies, I hate 'em! I hate 'em! Aaargh! Aaargh!

That is how I feel about Spielberg....
:)

[emulatorloo]

73. No, his pacing and rhythm are terrible. . .

He is not the best craftsman today. Look at the structure of AI and Minority Report and Catch Me If You Can. They aren't very tight compared to say, Terminator 2 and True Lies. James Cameron is a far better craftsman than Speilberg.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

75. Cameron is good, I'll admit

AI is fucked up all admit. But Minority Report is as tight as anything Cameron has done.

Don't make me pull out the ending of the Abyss on your ass.

[Wetzelbill]

54. Scorsese is the best

I like Coppola.

David Lean
Akira Kurosawa
Clint Eastwood
Oliver Stone
Spike Lee
Ang Lee
Ridley Scott

I could go on forever.

The finest films ever made:

The Seventh Seal
The Godfather 1 and 2
Goodfellas
Yojimbo
Dr. Zhivago
Lawrence of Arabia
JFK
The Treasure of The Sierra Madre

Oh hell, I'm too lazy to keep going on.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

60. Spike Lee? Ridley Scott? Ang Lee?

Woah buddy - Scott had only one good film:

Alien

The rest are amatuer tripe.

Spike Lee couldn't direct his way out of a paper bag. He throws some primary colors on people floating down the street and calls it good.

Ang Lee is clueless and the Hulk proves it. I own the Ice Storm because of the score but in all acuality that whole film confused and Lee has no idea what he is trying to say.


Lean is dead.

Kurasawa is dead.

[Wetzelbill]

67. speaking of clueless

[KittyWampus]

71. Jim Jarmuch Is The Best- You Are ALL Wrong!

He does more with less.

[thebigidea]

72. except "Ghost Dog" - ewwwwwwwwwwwww

I soooo wanted to enjoy that movie.

At least Henry Silva was fucking hilarious.

[CBHagman]

81. Sorry, but the self-pitying Peter Pan is as overrated as they come.

*He's still got severe problems with characters (they're usually ciphers who get herded around). "Schindler's List" is haunting, but "intimate"? Not by a long shot.

*"Hook" is unadulterated crap, hands down, and embarrassing on anyone's resume.

*He relies too much on violence, profanity, and special effects. Never in his wildest dreams will he approach the subtlety of a Billy Wilder or the dark humor of an Alfred Hitchcock.

Really, the only thing I appreciate about Spielberg is his Shoah project. That is a worthwhile legacy.

[dback]

85. How about: greatest pop filmmaker, next to Hitchcock?

I have to admit, the ranks of the greatest filmmakers that ever lived are pretty heady. Internationally, I think of Kuroswawa, Ozu, Fellini, Almovodar, Truffaut, Renoir, Ray, David Lean, Alfred Hitchcock, just for starters.

If I was making a list of the greatest American filmmakers, you'd have to include Howard Hawks, George Cuckor, Joseph Manckiewicz, Billy Wilder, Woody Allen, Victor Fleming, Clint Eastwood, Frank Capra, Sidney Lumey, Walt Disney, Martin Scorsese, and others. (I don't care for Stanley Kubrick's work at all--too cold and misanthropic--but I will admit he was a singular talent.)

Spielberg, however, is unique, because not only his he arguably the world's most popular filmmaker (in terms of box-office and number of people worldwide who've seen one or more of his works), he is also a true artist. However, his artistry is frequently trivialized or dismissed by others since much of his work does indeed celebrate the triumph of the human spirit, the separation and reunion of parents and children, and themes of the fantastic or supernatural. (Disney gets bashed for the same reasons.) However, just because a film's themes or outlines seem the epitome of pop doesn't mean that the film itself is mindless, trivial, etc. ("E.T." is just as much about the fragility of childhood as are "The 400 Blows" or "Forbidden Games"; "Jaws" is just as much a compelling examination of ordinary people facing down a monster as is "Nosferatu" or "The Thing.") Admittedly, some of his work is hit or miss, but same is true of every great filmmaker. (Those who used to admire Woody Allen can hardly embrace his last three movies, and even Scorsese has misstepped with "Gangs of New York" and "Casino.") And those who diss Spielberg as too sentimental or maudlin are missing exactly what makes him so distinctive as a filmmaker--his heart. (Compare him to Quentin Tarantino, whose work may bring facile pleasures but never engages the heart--not even with a hypodermic.)

Having said all that, here are 5 Steven Spielberg films that made the AFI's Top 100 Film list of all time--deservedly so.

1)Schindler's List
2)Jaws
3)Raiders of the Lost Ark
4)E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
5)Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Here are another 5 that are easily worthy of equal praise:

6)Jurassic Park
7)Empire of the Sun
8)Saving Private Ryan
9)The Sugarland Express
10)Minority Report

And another 5 that have fierce partisans, despite flaws:

11)The Color Purple
12)A.I.
13)Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
14)Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
15)Catch Me If You Can

And here and there you find folks who admire the insanely huge comedy of "1941," the grit and wit of "The Sugarland Express," the exhaustive terror of "Duel," the technical craftmanship of "Temple of Doom," and "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," the emotional punch of "The Color Purple," or even the sweetness of a misfire like "Always." Only "Hook" seems to me to be one of the few Spielberg films that has almost nothing to recommend it, alongside the mechanical "The Lost World."

But let us give props to the original poster: how many filmmakers--again, besides Scorsese and Allen--have some 15 films that can be considered some of the most celebrated and seminal of the past 30 years? If he keeps working at this pace, Spielberg is going to be listed among the Top 3 Directors of all time for the most staggering body of filmmaking ever.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

98. BRAVO

Equal with Hitchcock in terms of "pop film" making.

In the all time top 10 of American film makers.

In the all time top 15 of International film makers (Definately above Almodovar).

BTW - I consider Lean and Hitchcock American.

[Nailzberg]

102. I'm willing to go along with that, but not because of "pop".

I don't think it's a question of pop or not. I think it's a question of filmmaker vs. director.

If he didn't have the last title card, I wouldn't know he directed it.
And I believe a great director leaves his mark. No one ever makes a film and says it's "Very Speilberg-esque" because he really doesn't have he doesn't have a style.

He may be the one of the greatest producers ever. Changing the arguement from director to filmmaker makes a HUGE difference to me. Very few people could do what he does, but I think he's not much of a Director.

[trogdor]

117. A.I. would have done better as a series.

It was arranged in three parts, each of which would have benefitted from more time. If it were presented as three two-hour movies, it would have gone over a lot better, with more nuance than what came out, IMO.

Of course, Haley Joel Osment couldn't possibly have stayed twelve years old long enough to complete all three films.

[Nailzberg]

88. Imagine they are all musicians.

The all play different kinds of music.
Ang Lee could be the CSO
John Woo could be Front 242
James Cameron strikes me as Metallica.
Coppola is a string quartet.

on and on and so forth.
Speilberg is the best damn cover band around.


And to piss off more film people...
Tarintino is the deejay for a rap group, its mostly just samples.

[Deja Q]

97. Wasn't he who decided that those mean FBI guys in ET have their

guns digitally removed with walkie talkies put in?!

He was good for his time.

Today he's a raving nutter. You don't F with a film. I don't like censorship, even if I made it and I decided 20 years later that *gasp* what I did has something someone might find objectionable, (imitating Dr. Smith) oh the fear... :eyes:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

99. Agreed - bad move

But much more inncuous than Lucas's filthy little paws all over the first Star Wars movie.

[theemu]

100. you = wrong

>>Whenever movies are discussed on this board, the work of one Steven Spielberg is often ignored or dismissed.

Deservedly so. He's a decent filmmaker who does a lot of mainstream, but not artistic work.

>>Quite odd since he's the best American director of the 20th century.

No. Not by a long shot.

>>Alfred Hitchcock?

Not American.

>>Not one of his suspense or horror films (Psycho, The Birds, Frenzy) is as unnerving as Jaws.

This is incorrect. Psycho is significantly more unnerving than a shark movie because it's about human drama. And at least in The Birds, I can tell the birds are real.

>>Billy Wilder or Howard Hawks? As disparate in tone as their films are, no one has managed to juggle horror, science fiction, adventure, drama, the war movie, and comedy (he finally nailed it with Catch Me If You Can) with the craftsmanship Spielberg did.

Catch Me If You Can was neither comedic nor good.

>>His work too sentimental for ya? Apart from the maudlin 1983-1991 period, his films are imbued with an emotional honesty. If you think that's a big chunk of time, then ask yourself whether or not Orson Welles produced anything as earth-shattering as his Citizen Kane?

Emotional honesty? Are you joking me? And yes, Orson Welles did produce a lot of works as earth-shattering as Citizen Kane - Touch of Evil, The Magnificent Ambersons among them. And Spielburg's maudlin touch continues onward - look at AI and try not to wince. Look at Saving Private Ryan and try to find anything innovative or new about it at all - it's a John Wayne war movie with blood.

>>It pisses a lot of people off that Spielberg can produce masterpieces that grab accolades from the masses and then concoct a film as intimate and haunting as Schinder's List. He's the High School quarterback and captain of the chess club all in one.

Yes, Schindler's List is good. A bit pretentious, especially with the girl-in-red shit, but good.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

104. Touch of Evil

is incredibly overrated and ultimately fails as a film. Charelton Heston is a joke is his black face and fake mustache. There is no story at all and charachters are cardboard cutouts that have no depth and elicit no sympathy whatsoever. The film failed commerically and it was only because of the innovative camera work that it made such an impact on filmakers.

Not a good film.

[theemu]

106. you = wrong

Cardboard Characters

[DerekG]

111. Jaws was more human than The Birds ever was...

Do you prefer a maudlin romance between Tippi and the hunk of the month as opposed to the three breathless performances of Roy Schieder, Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfuss?

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

113. one word: Hook

two more:
Lost World

he's been in decline since the 80s, though i loved Minority Report

[VOX]

114. Hmm...a pissing contest about great American Directors of the 20th Century

and not one mention of John Ford or John Houston.

For starters:

-Ford-
Searchers, The (1956)
Mister Roberts (1955)
Quiet Man, The (1952)
Wagon Master (1950)
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949)
3 Godfathers (1948)
Fort Apache (1948)
Fugitive, The (1947)
My Darling Clementine (1946)
Battle of Midway, The (1942)
How Green Was My Valley (1941)
Grapes of Wrath, The (1940)
Drums Along the Mohawk (1939)
Young Mr. Lincoln (1939)
Stagecoach (1939)
Hurricane, The (1937)
Wee Willie Winkie (1937)
Mary of Scotland (1936)
Prisoner of Shark Island, The (1936)
Steamboat Round the Bend (1935)
Informer, The (1935)
Lost Patrol, The (1934)

-Houston-
Dead, The (1987)
Prizzi's Honor (1985)
Under the Volcano (1984)
Wise Blood (1979) (
Man Who Would Be King, The (1975)
Fat City (1972)
Kremlin Letter, The (1970)
Walk with Love and Death, A (1969)
Reflections in a Golden Eye (1967)
Bible, The (1966)
Night of the Iguana, The (1964)
List of Adrian Messenger, The (1963)
Freud (1962)
Misfits, The (1961)
Unforgiven, The (1960)
Roots of Heaven, The (1958)
Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison (1957)
Moby Dick (1956)
Beat the Devil (1953)
Moulin Rouge (1952)
African Queen, The (1951)
Red Badge of Courage, The (1951)
Asphalt Jungle, The (1950)
We Were Strangers (1949)
Key Largo (1948)
Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The (1948)
Let There Be Light (1946)
San Pietro (1945) (uncredited)
Report from the Aleutians (1943) (uncredited)
Across the Pacific (1942)
Maltese Falcon, The (1941)

Spielberg knows enough to salute these greats every now and then, i.e., including the kiss from "The Quiet Man" in "E.T." Spielberg is clever and knows his craft, but he has a long way to go before he can cast a shadow as long as these giants.

[piece sine]

116. and all of them can genuflect

to Bernardo Betrolucci, the finest film director in the history of the craft.

[VOX]

120. Well, since the thread was supposed to be on American directors...

Mssrs. Houston and Ford may hold off on any posthumous genuflection.

:toast:

[4323Lopez]

118. 1941 -Was sooo funny!

You all don't know funny, because that was it!

[Nailzberg]

121. So was "I'm Gonna Get You Sucka" - doesn't make Wayans a great director

eom

[MadHound]

123. Yeah, Speilberg is OK

If you're looking for a little escape into a formula film with a guaranteed happy ending, Spielberg is your man. This has worked well in some of his works, it has fallen flat in others. Lately though I personally have been getting tired of the same ol' same ol' with Spielberg. I thought it was a crying shame that they brought in Spielberg to finish up Kubrick's AI, the man had to tack on a goddamn happy ending to a dark film that wasn't meant to end happily. It was as obvious as the back end of a Ford welded onto the front of a Rolls Royce. Hell, they would have been better off handing the film off to Oliver Stone, at least he understands the concept of angst.

Spielberg cranked out some true winners in the mid to late seventies, but after that he fell into a formula rut. While some of these films were entertaining, with a couple perhaps rising to the level of greatness, the overall predictability of his work has really soured me on Spielberg.

I keep hoping that he has some mind blowing mid life crisis to break him out of this rut he's in, for I think he could be considered one of the greats if he would just do something different and new. But alas, this doesn't seem to be in the cards. And that's a shame, to watch his talent frittered away on formulaic crap.

[piece sine]

126. as usual,

Speilberg takes the silver, Kubrick gets the gold.

In real cinematic circles -- and not in ad adjunct-thread to a primarily political site -- there's no question as to Kubrick's preeminence. It's simply a fact. A given. He dah man.

So the middle-brow (while posing as high-falutin') comments through-out this thread only spotlight the poseurs. Cinema 101: Thou Shall Not Speak Ill of Kubrick.

Cinema 201: Thou Shall Bring-Up Bertolucci EARLY In Any Thread Discussing Best Directors.

Cinema 301: Accomplished COMMERCIAL craftsman for Mass-Audiences Like Spielberg have a rightful place in the lower eschelon of the TOP TWENTY, but let's not get carried away.

125. someone should mention

John Cassavetes.

So I will.