Do you believe in karmic balance?

[leftofthedial]

I used to believe that what goes around comes around; that one good turn deserved another; that good deeds were deposits in the "karma bank." I believed that if you did the right thing, you would naturally benefit, even if only in the long run. I believed that good begat good and evil begat evil. In other words, I believed in justice as a natural force.

What do you think?

[LastKnight]

1. no balance.

but the universe seems to make failing stabs at it... grossly overrewarding some, and leaving others begging for crumbs.

[KitchenWitch]

2. I believe there is balance

but maybe not on our preferred timeline.

[enigmatic]

3. I was just going to say that

I'm w/ you on this.

[KitchenWitch]

4. Is that you or Wetzel talking?

:rofl:

[enigmatic]

5. He just gave me a noogie

I think that answers your question:)

[leftofthedial]

6. do you have evidence to show this,

or is it purely a belief?

[leftofthedial]

7. is the universe making stabs at it?

your description sounds like the opposite of balance

is "the universe" really doing anything, or is it left entirely up to us?

[In_The_Wind]

8. I tend to agree with you.

[leftofthedial]

15. do you currently agree with what I used to believe

or do you agree with the past tense?

[In_The_Wind]

23. *sigh*

OK here's my take on the situation ...



we are here on terra firma for only the blink of an eye in time

the good/bad that we do becomes part of our Karmic history ... instant Karma does happen but often people aren't aware of it

however if your motivation throughout life is self-serving then you're bound to be disappointed for Karma does not work on a 3rd dimensional clock




would you care to discuss this further or do you understand my way of thinking

[leftofthedial]

27. I understand, I think

I'm just less convinced that karma exists in any fashion

It's not that I expect some sort of self-serving personal reward

it's just that in the long historical view, I see the good people suffering more and more and the evil people prospering more and more

I don't know about a "3rd dimensional clock." I use the word "karma" as a colloquialism, but I don't intend to limit its meaning to a cosmological or supernatural context. If karma only works in "some other plane," that means (to me) that it does not exist.

I've begun to think that always striving to do the right thing and playing by the rules is a losing strategy in all ways except personal satisfaction. I'm now concerned that this sense of satisfaction is in effect a delusion.

[In_The_Wind]

35. so let me offer you this

I do what really feels GOOD to me ... not what others may expect of me.

I live by my own rules because I almost (and I say almost because I'm not nor do I try to be perfect) always treat everyone with kindness and ALWAYS with respect.


if personal satisfaction comes from a warm and fuzzy feeling within then you've honestly won in the game of life ... for happiness comes to us without a price tag


I do believe that we receive our karma here in this lifetime .......... and beyond, as I also believe that my soul has been on earth before and will be again.



shall we continue

[leftofthedial]

39. I try always to do what I believe is right

but lately, it seems that that is working strongly to my disadvantage--even things I did twenty years ago.

[In_The_Wind]

43. then here is another wisdom from a Native American friend of mine

... don't think

it makes you crazy ........

just be




try to navigate within the natural flow of your life, not against it





*trust me* the good that you do in this lifetime will come back to you IN this lifetime

[leftofthedial]

47. I hope you're right

I proved to myself today that even in my deepest doubt, I can't do other than what I think is good and right.

[In_The_Wind]

49. I sincerely hope so too leftofthedial because I agree with this post.

walk in light ~ my friend, leftofthedial


PM me if you need to ask anything more

[leftofthedial]

51. Thanks, Joan_Alpern

:hi:

[TXlib]

9. I voted Karma is NOT bullshit, but there is no balance. Here's why:

I don't believe in Karma as a universal force. I believe in it simply to the extent that humans create it themselves. If I fuck too many people over, somebody may be more likely eventually to get me back. If I perform frequent altruistic acts, somebody may be more likely to help me if I need it.

But humans are not perfect, and so there is no balance.

[leftofthedial]

11. are you saying what goes around comes around

but not inevitably and not necessarily in a "fair" way?

[TXlib]

13. Essentially.

[leftofthedial]

16. that is close to what I used to believe

but I believed that good results were a natural, inevitable result of doing good things

now, I'm pretty certain that is not true. I suppose if you do enough good things that some people reciprocate and you derive a benefit (other than just feeling good about doing good).

I see no evidence, however, that doing evil results in evil consequences. Quite the contrary. I see that if you commit truly huge acts of evil that crime does indeed pay and pay incredibly well. At the same time, there is no "payback." No evil consequences seem to follow.

[kick-ass-bob]

17. that you see.

it is naive to think that you get to see all that is really happening to another person.

[leftofthedial]

22. immense wealth, power

but there is a portrait of dorian gray in their closet?

I don't think so. I think crime (or at least certain kinds of crime) does indeed pay.

[TXlib]

25. If you steal money, steal billions

or at least hundreds of millions.

[leftofthedial]

28. exactly

if you steal $50 from the 7-11, you will be screwed thoroughly

If you steal trillions, you will be king of the world

[kick-ass-bob]

26. Right. Those are things that outsiders can see and measure.

But what is really going on inside closed doors? Their heads?

I am by no means saying that all criminals will go to jail or be publicly humiliated, but there is a price to pay, it just may not be a public one.

[leftofthedial]

29. what price? who collects payment?

I don't see evidence that there is really a price to pay. If you are amoral, you don't feel guilt . . .

what makes you suffer?

[kick-ass-bob]

34. it's different for different people. I'm not going to try to quantify it -

that just won't work. Maybe some go crazy, maybe some are unloved and die alone. I don't know and frankly, I don't care.

you seem too concerned about others and what will happen to them.

The only one you can control is you.


Mother Teresa was one of the most beloved and "money poorest" people in the world. Yet, everyone applauds her efforts, and she was happy doing what she did.

King Fahd (sp?) was one of the richest men in the world, yet must be buried in an unmarked grave. I doubt that he was a very happy man, having to look over his shoulder everywhere he went. Different people, different prices.

I'm going to have to go do some work now, so this will have to be my last post.

Take care, lotd.

[kick-ass-bob]

10. you bring to your life what you ask for.

not is words, but in what you really feel from within.

We (wife and I) should have been in massive financial difficulties many times during our lives, but everything just "happened to work out".

We aren't the "woe is me" type of people, we are positive and think that everything will work out. And it has.

I wrecked our only car - and we had no money for a new one. Our insurance paid us exactly what a friend was wanting for their car they were about to put out for sale. You may want to call it coincidence, but I don't think so. We have had far too many "coincidences" for it to be just that.

And you won't convince me otherwise.

[leftofthedial]

12. the power of positive thinking is a great system

until it doesn't work.

[kick-ass-bob]

14. and your system works oh, so much better?

:shrug:

on edit: and what is wrong with thinking positively about anything? Things will still go wrong, but would you rather be so pissed about it (when you can't do anything to fix it) or just let it roll off and feel positive anyways?

[leftofthedial]

19. no! that's not what I meant

In fact, I have no system. I don't think there IS a system.

I think we act and set cause and effect in motion.

I hope your "system" works perfectly for you forever and that your lives are blessed. A good attitude is a good thing.

[kick-ass-bob]

20. ok - gotcha.

but why not just look for positives in every situation?
Don't worry about seeing other people doing wrong getting what they deserve, that just takes away from your life.

They shouldn't define what you think about.

:)

[leftofthedial]

24. on a daily basis, I'm far more aware of the other side of the coin

namely the good I do and have done coming back to haunt me and cause negative consequences.

[kick-ass-bob]

31. A story:

My wife was a guidance counselor. She hated the job, but she loved the kids. She never felt she made a difference, becuase she was overwhelmed by administrative stuff, etc. etc. So she burned out fast. That was about 5 years ago.

Last week, she saw a former student who had some really bad problems and the child's mother. The mother came over to her specifically to thank her, because if my wife had not intervened, the child would have not gotten help for their problem and could have been locked up right now. The parents didn't see it, the child was too young to understand.

My wife had no idea that she made such an impact from (truly) the little thing that she did.

The point is, sometimes you are never aware of the good that results from your good, but you have to trust that it is there.

She quit becuase she never saw the good that was occurring either and could only see the negative around her. But that doesn't mean that good didn't happen.

[leftofthedial]

33. I work with at-risk kids and have seen similar outcomes

from whatever small good I tried to do for them

I think that is cause and effect

What I don't see is any "natural" force that works to ensure that, as some hippie musician once said, "and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.'

I think it is almost certain NOT to be balanced. This is even more obvious on the other side of the scale, in which punishment is completely inequitable and not based in any way on the degree of evil that gets done.

BTW, I'm asking this because I still want to believe that there is some underlying natural tendency TOWARD balance and justice, but that our human systems (the legal system, politics, the justice system, governments, military might, etc.) have corrupted, perverted, distorted and thwarted it.

[Old_Fart]

18. I'm a Buddhist

n/t

[leftofthedial]

30. I'm part Irish

:shrug:

[Old_Fart]

42. Aren't we all

:shrug:

[leftofthedial]

48. slainte!

:toast:

[Pobeka]

50. I play Irish music.

And I'm not part Irish.

Twisted, heh? :crazy:

And I believe in kharma, as a desire of the soul to reach full understanding of its past actions.

And I believe it may take many of what we can only call lifetimes, and it is inevitable.

This is why I torment myself into thinking I can one day be adequate at playing Irish music.

See?

[leftofthedial]

52. ah! such a sweet torment!

keep playing music. Music is the one thing in this life that has never failed me.

[Pobeka]

54. You bet! It *is* sweet, and gets better with age! n/t

[leftofthedial]

55. I won't make the obligatory jokes about

how we get more deaf with age. :-)

What instrument(s) do you play?

[billyskank]

21. If you believe in karma then the word "balance" is unnecessary

It's like Newton's third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It's inherently balanced. The idea goes, for every fruitive act you perform you are bound to wait around to enjoy or suffer the reaction as appropriate to the original act.

[leftofthedial]

32. Aha! I used to think it was like the 3rd law of motion

action, equal and opposite reaction

the reaction might be invisible to us, or might take a l-o-n-g time to develop, but justice or karma or balance or harmony would prevail

Now though, I don't think that is true. I think if you do enough good, occasionally someone might reciprocate, but it is not a "natural" requirement.

[billyskank]

38. So - you no longer believe in karma, then.

There is no text!

[leftofthedial]

53. I think it's like justice

it's just a word that we made up to describe a theoretical way that things might work in a better world, but don't really in this one.

[UncleSepp]

40. I learned it a few different ways

The one explanation of karma, from a Hindu friend, that made the most sense to me was 'as you are, so shall you have'. What was meant by that, as he explained, was that your experience of the world depends not on the world, but on the you that is having the experience. If you are yourself untrustworthy, your experience of the world will be that you are surrounded by untrustworthy people. In the moment in which you change and learn to be trustworthy, your world will also change, and you will see the trustworthiness in those around you. In my friend's explanation, karma is immediate, and not something which waits for later.

[leftofthedial]

56. I don't know if my experience bears out your friend's explanation

I just don't perceive anything approaching justice as a natural outcome for anything.

[UncleSepp]

61. It seems that "justice" is a human concept

The idea of what is just and what is not just changes over time, so what might have been evidence of justice in one era would be evidence of injustice in another. Justice, beauty, perhaps even good and evil seem to me to be subjective constructs of the human mind - which doesn't make them any less real to the mind which perceives them.

[leftofthedial]

63. call it balance or harmony or justice or fairness

or equal and opposite

"justice" clearly is perverted by capitalism. "How much justice can you afford?" is the first question nearly any attorney either asks or finds out the answer to.

I'm using the word in its more natural sense (which I fear is a mistake).

Is there any natural, ordinary force or power that causes things to work out relatively fairly over time? I think not. Therefore, the concepts of fairness, justice, balance, right and wrong are just so much jerking off.

[Pithlet]

36. No

Because too many good people get fucked over who don't deserve it, and the reverse. I just think shit happens.

[leftofthedial]

57. ain't it true.

ain't it.

[SOteric]

37. Not Karma, exactly...

I believe in essence that our lives hold up a kind of mirror to us. If we put too much crap out there, then crap is what's reflected back. And I don't think we've necessarily got to wait around for the scale to swing in another lifetime. Sometimes it's not easy to see, but I truly believe if you go around yanking everyone's chain, sooner or later, where it matters most, someone will be yanking yours.

[leftofthedial]

58. there is a level at which you can cause negative consequences

but there also is a level at which you can be so horribly evil that no adquate justice exists.

Of more concern to me is that doing good just seems to be a shortcut to being taken advantage of, punished by our legal and justice systems in many cases and resulting in other bad outcomes for the one who is only trying to do good.

[UncleSepp]

41. I do not believe in karmic reward and punishment

Certainly, not in balanced or proportional rewards and punishments. In my entirely subjective, anecdotal, worth as much as you paid for it experience, a person can do VERY bad things in one lifetime and still end up pretty well off in the next.

(I also am not totally convinced that the experiences leading me to this conclusion actually do represent reincarnation. If they do, then no, I don't believe in the balance and certainly not in the Wiccan threefold return. If they don't, then I still don't believe in it within one lifetime, and can't draw a conclusion about lifetime-spanning karma. YMMV, offer not valid in all states of being.)

[AlienGirl]

46. IMO a Turing-test-like logic applies

If what's happening can't be distinguished from what would happen if the reincarnation model is accurate, then it makes sense to treat it as if it is accurate.

Tucker

[Deja Q]

44. To coin a phrase, it's bullshit.

I now know what is happening in your world.

There are 2 types of people in your world: Those in control and those who must follow in order to survive. There is no inbetween or "outsider" group that people can escape to.

I know my fate in it and I know my time is coming. Those in control have not a conscience or sense of community or involvement. They condone dog-eat-dog philosophies and pit us against each other.

If justice was a natural force, things would continue to progress. The pinnacle of this was probably the hippie movement, but your world has been devolving since then.

If there was karma, the planet Earth would spontaneously explode here and now. I just looked out the window. Guess what? It hasn't happened. Nor is it going to.

Understand this: Life is what we make of it. And I am a spectator until the very end. I'm too busy fighting off the dogs to contribute what's moral. (which is kinda their intent too...)

Have fun in your world.

[leftofthedial]

59. I wish I could

have fun, that is

it is NO fun right now.

[AlienGirl]

45. No balance...

If you mean a karmic system that evens things out from life to life, no--the only thing that seems to happen regularly, from what I've seen, is that people will continue to encounter those people they feel strongly about. (And "strong feelings" don't necessarily mean *good* feelings.)

I think someone can be a jerk, do bad things, and still wind up with a pile of money and people who like him in one lifetime, then die, reincarnate in a happy childhood, and have another satisfying life, and maybe even *still* be a jerk. Similarly, someone else might be a good person, do everything right, and yet have a succession of bad breaks in life, or even a series of short, crummy lives. Though I believe in reincarnation, I don't think it administers justice.

I think the Universe is a morally neutral playing-field, and that's why it's incumbent upon us to create ethical societies to live in: there's nobody out there gonna do it for us.

Tucker

[leftofthedial]

60. I don't believe in reincarnation or other lives or any of that.

I just wondered (admittedly inaccurately) if doing good is "rewarded" and doing bad is "punished" in the natural course of events.

Your last sentence is the whole point of civilization, isn't it? Or at least it should be.

[Taverner]

62. Nope. Shit just happens. Any meaning (good or bad) is subjective

Meaning, you make up any meaning that might exist. Other than that, it's just a matter of electrons circling nuclei in varying numbers and speeds.

[leftofthedial]

64. are you positive?

or negative?

I'm keeping my ion you.