When did "feminist" become a term of derision?

[Misunderestimator]

Especially here on DU? I'm seeing people here actually using it in a derogatory manner and it fascinates and repulses and offends me.

How did this happen? Who decided on this side, on the progressive side, to adopt the right wing's bastardization of a good progressive word into a derisive one?

I'm a feminist. I'm a progressive. I'm gay. I'm a liberal. And I'm fed up with arguing with and trying to convince other progressives to respect me as an equal. That should be a given. I shouldn't have to fight here.

[shoelace414]

1. I liked Stephonolopos's question

but I added something.

Name one Feminist of note from the past 10 years.

[Zenlitened]

3. Answer: Misunderestimator.

:)

[Misunderestimator]

8. ...

thanks ... :hug:

[Wetzelbill]

58. Ha! I second that!

She straightened me out for sure. :)

[Susang]

9. Paula Kamen and Eve Ensler

There's two for you. Would you like more? I have a really big list. :D

[tigereye]

157. all women who care about women's rights are feminists

that would be a mightly long list.

[xmas74]

170. Any woman who embraces even one feminist ideal

is a feminist, whether she calls herself one or not. So we would have to name off most women in the US.

[Texasgal]

2. I was concerned about the use

of the word " Radical feminist"

WTF?? When did being a Feminist become a "radical" thought?

[ghostsofgiants]

12. There are different types of feminism

It's been almost two years since I took the sociology course in which I learned this, so I don't remember all of the ttypes, but there's liberal and radical feminism, which both have slightly different approaches to feminism. I wish I had more details. I don't even know what I did with my text book from that class, so I can't look it up. Too lazy to try Google, haha.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. That's A Fair Concern, But. . .

. . .like in any other social movement, there will be moderate and radical voices. If it's meant purely as a descriptor over the methods and philosophy over one faction of feminist activist versus another, then it's a fair adjective.

If it's meant as a putdown, you have every reason to be concerned. But, it would be a mistake to think that there are NOT radical feminists, just as there are radical anti-abortionists, radical anarchists, or radical economists (like me).

The Professor

[Wetzelbill]

63. I think that in the way it is used.....

it is to imply that being a feminist in general is radical. It's a way to continue to from a debate on this, but in a slightly more mainstream way. Instead of going over board with hatred and calling Hillary a "FemiNazi" then you just make her look like she's part of a lunatic fringe. Of course, when you basically want women to be slaves with no choice, like Rick Santorum does, well, then any woman who has half a brain is a "Radical" Feminist in your eyes. It's a way to radicalize the notion that women should have certain fundamental rights. It's radicalizing, what should be entitled. Rhetoric has a way of shaping the debate, and these clowns are good at it, unfortunately. However, Rick is so far off base that this one probably won't ever fly.

[Wetzelbill]

59. when crazy white guys realized

that most women were smarter than their dumbasses, that's when. :)

[sundog]

4. no fight here

:yourock:

:hug:

chin up, remember names & avoid your enemies

[Misunderestimator]

11. ...

;) :hug:

[swag]

5. Hear, hear!

I'm a feminist.
I'm a progressive.
I'm a liberal.

Count me in.

[Misunderestimator]

15. Swag...

You're the best... :hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. When Rush Limbaugh and the right went after feminism

which is why when someone treats feminism in a derogatory manner my radar goes off

[Doctor_J]

31. Yeah

about the time the final chapter of the US began - when Limpballs hit the big time. It's the same time frame that "liberal", "tolerant", "intellectual", and "share" became swear words.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. and "elite"..can you believe a bunch of billionaires call *us* elitists?

[ProfessorGAC]

37. We Have A Winner

The term itself was demonized. After that, the concept begins to take on that demon's mark. Thus, anytime there is some disagreement over the tenets or approach to feminism with which any of us disagrees, the demonization can show its roots.

That's one reason why i won't use the term progressive. I'm liberal, damn it! I'm proud of it, and i want my adjective back!
The Professor

[NewJeffCT]

80. I think it started before Rush

Probably with the election of Reagan in 1980... but, Rush took it to a whole new level with his garbage.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. The term has always been controversial going back to the 70's

Feminists were described as a bunch of bra burners..but it got far worse when Rush came along followed by the Men's Rights backlash

[ghostsofgiants]

7. It probably stems from a misunderstanding of what feminism is

Which is sad. A lot of people equate feminism with misandry. It's the reason a friend of mine says she "hates feminists", she thinks their sole purpose is hating men. I think that might be part of it.

[Misunderestimator]

10. That does seem to be a part of the misperception...

and I still don't understand it. I don't know any women who hate men. It seems to be another tactic of the right to paint feminists that way, as if they are all man-haters.

Have you ever met a misandrist? Was she a feminist, or just someone who had been abused by men? I think most real "misandrists" would be the latter category, otherwise, why hate?

:shrug:

[ghostsofgiants]

16. Yeah, I don't understand the way of thinking either

I think it's just a result of popular smearing of feminists that permeated mainstream culture combined with an overall ignorance of what feminism really is.

[Swede]

22. If you don't know any,how would you know?

So a woman who hates a man was abused,but a man who hates a woman is evil. Cool.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Did you see me say anything CLOSE to that?

I never said that men who hate women are evil. They are misogynists. I don't presume to know WHY they are misogynists. Maybe they were also abused?

And I don't know... I didn't say I know... I said I "think."

"I think most real "misandrists" would be the latter category, otherwise, why hate?"

:shrug:

[Mandate My Ass]

30. You didn't need to...

just start a thread about being a proud feminist and the you-know-whats crawl out of the woodwork.

Your point was abundantly clear.

[zanne]

172. You sound like you've been burned.

Whenever I hear a man talk like that, I know he's been burned. I also know it's personal.

[Finder]

54. Excellent point. (nt)

[MindPilot]

73. You've never met my mother....

AFAIK never abused at the hands of any man--certainly not my father or grandfather, who were both incredibly decent men, but to this day harbors a deep (hate is probably too strong a word) distrust and dislike of men. She's not gay; she simply wants nothing to do with men except for those few times she needs something "manly" done. She has made it abundantly clear that she wishes I had been a daughter, but has no qualms about asking me to work on her computer or do some plumbing.

This is not to whine about my mom issues, but just to point out that, yeah, they are out there. She wouldn't define herself as "feminist", but in every other respect she is liberal and progressive as could be.

[Misunderestimator]

78. You say that she wouldn't define herself as a feminist.

So, it backs up my point anyway :)

That's wild... I've never met a woman who just hates men. That must have been awfully weird to grow up with. :hug:

[MindPilot]

99. Thanks for the hug

Yeah, I could spend a lot of time on the therapist's couch over that one! :D It's probably also why I tend to bristle at the slightest perception of man-bashing in any of these gender-issue threads.

For the record, I've done a lot of work on feminists issues including guarding abortion clinics, working for NOW and NARAL.

I agree with some of the other posters downthread; why can't all just be people? Treated and judged the same, while openly acknowledging and enjoying our differences. I think that's is where a big part of the problem comes in; we (big broadbrush humankind "we") tend to think in simplistic terms where "equality" means "sameness" and that just can't work.

[intheflow]

83. Well, there was Andrea Dworkin....

She spoke quite vehemently on the evils of mankind, such as

"Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free."

Of course, her stuff is quoted out of context by the RWingers, just as they take Jesus out of context to make him support world and sexual domination. And besides, to define all feminists through the lens of one feminist is to ignore the hundreds of thousands of feminists who never said word one about male domination in any context.

If you're interested in Dworkin's writings, there's an excellent web site that has a library of her stuff: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OnlineLibrary.html

Personally, I first saw this demonization of feminism arising during the Reagan era. Been fighting it ever since. Thanks, Misunderestimator!

[Kraklen]

130. I've known one.

She was both a feminist and a victim of abuse. She'd often confuse her wonderful notions of gender equality with her irrational hatred of men. I had nothing but sympathy for her. That said, in conversations with people who were unaware of her past, she'd routinely come across as a "misandrist" or a "feminazi" (God, I hate both those terms) or whatever you want to call it.

[Susang]

13. Unfortunately, when other women started accepting it as such

The right wing has done an excellent job in turning the people who should be for feminism against it. That does the most harm, IMO.

Until all women are not embarrassed to call themselves feminists for the mere fact that they support equal rights for women, then the word will always be used against us.

[terrya]

14. I'm a feminist.

And I'm proud to call myself one. We should ALL be feminists here.

And it's simple as that.

:yourock:, Misunderestimator.

Terry

[Misunderestimator]

17. Yes!

:loveya: My fellow feminist terrya :hug:

[ProfessorGAC]

38. How About We All Be "People-Ists"?

Seems to me that should be the goal. Gender, race, ethnicity, and whatever else should just not matter. Act like a good person, be treated like one. Act like a jerk, get treated like a jerk.
The Professor

[Heidi]

43. I consider myself a human-beingist.

And I don't _ever_ like being identified by my gender, race, ethnicity, etc.

"Act like a good person, be treated like one" works for me, though I understand that it doesn't necessarily work for others.

Thank you for making an excellent point, Professor GAC.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. You Are Welcome

You know the old saying, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." I've often considered that we could turn that inside out, to reward those who are "peopleists". Let's turn it into "If you're not part of the problem, YOU ARE part of the solution!"
The Professor

[johnnie]

44. Yup

I was going to say something close to this. I try to treat everyone the same, and if someone is an asshole, then I treat him or her as an asshole.
Society has been splintered into millions of groups.

[Misunderestimator]

45. When? When all people are equal.

:) :hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

46. I'm Trying To Frame The Words To Lead The Charge

The Professor

[Misunderestimator]

55. I'm good with that!

:thumbsup:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. They shouldn't Professor, but indeed they do

Instead of celebrating our differences, our differences are often used to demean...that's why women and minorities must take a stand. Being something other than white male does not and SHOULD not equate to being less than, but I STILL see it everyday in court...hell...even the female judges I deal with see it in THEIR jobs!

[ProfessorGAC]

57. I'm Not Disagreeing

Like i told Misunderestimator, i'm trying to frame the wording ahead of the curve. There isn't a good term to describe those who really want to treat everyone alike, while still aware of the differences we all have. Just stabbing for a way to describe the ideal.

Not saying we're there. But, i'm not going to be a feminist, any more than i'll be a racist! I just want to be a "people-ist". I'll do right by anyone who just wants to live their life in a way that makes them happy, and hurts nobody else. Gender, race, orientation, do not matter. I'm looking for a simple, light-hearted term that describes it. But, i sure know we're not there yet. But, some of us are. Small victories!
The Professor

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. Maybe we don't need to call ourselves anything

and just not tolerate racism and sexism when we see it. I don't need to be a feminist to know when someone is using terms and making statements that keep women down.

I don't need to be a civil rights activist to know when someone else is framing a race as "less than" another race.

I don't need to be a lesbian to know when someone is making homophobic statements.

[redqueen]

144. Well, maybe one thing: better.

Better people, trying to make the world a better place for everyone.

[nashville_brook]

164. feminist = racist?

why the need for something "light-hearted," vis a vis the term feminist?

we're up against some major heat:
pharmacies that won't fill birth control scripts
a supreme court ready to overturn roe v wade
still only 77 cents on the dollar earnings
glass ceilings
sexual harrassment

why must we argue over this term? if women want to use this term to define their issues, why should that bother anyone? isn't it just polite to use language preferred by the people it describes?

it's like telling an african american -- "sorry, but i'm calling you colored."

women's issues are different than "people's" issues. they just are. if they weren't, we'd already be in utopia -- there wouldn't be any need for the language of liberation, period.

[ProfessorGAC]

167. Get A Grip!

I'm not part of the problem. Don't treat me like one. Sheesh!
The Professor

[nashville_brook]

174. i *know* you don't mean to equate the two -- that's why i pointed it out

well, i don't know anything -- but i assume, if you are posting on DU, then you aren't sexist or racist.

BUT if the "problem" stated in the original post is language; and if the problem is worth caring about, then it's worth getting it right. feminists have been working on issues of language for longer than either of us have been alive. language matters. it's what gives organizes reality. if we are willing to "let it go" that reality can be re-organized such that feminism is lumped with racism -- then we are doing a major disservice to the progessive experiment.

by addressing the problem with dismissal (get a grip) you participate in robbing women who care (and those who don't for that matter) of their identity. it's a project of dehumanization...you don't matter...i will name you...you will live with what the name i give you...otherwise, get a grip.

see, that's the politics of subordination/domination which is exactly what we have fought to REVEAL for so long. the mechanism of women's oppression has historically been unrecognized -- a matter of fact; of language; of life. of IDEOLOGY.

that's why it matters.

"Men do not want solely the obedience of women, they want their sentiments...They have therefore put everything i practice to enslave their minds. The masters of slaves rely, for maintaining obedience, on fear...the masters of women wanted more than simple obedience, and they turned the whole force of education (language) to effect their purpose...." John Stuart Mill

[ProfessorGAC]

175. Again, I'm Not The Problem

I judge EVERYONE on merit not on gender or race or anything else. There are jerks of every stripe. My jerk alert is always set on high. I don't want obedience from anyone! I just want friends, and i married the best friend i've ever had. If someone is incapable of being a friend to others, they won't be mine.

I've had a highly diverse group of people reporting to me, and i've reported to a diverse group (although not as diverse as people who were subordinate to me). Nothing like that ever mattered to me.

I honestly think the solution is simply to have zero barriers. If more people just treated all other people like PEOPLE, there would be far fewer issues in this world. I don't think i should have to be lectured at because i think labels are damaging no matter the intent of the label or the cause behind it. I don't want to be labeled, and i really don't need any labels. Live and let live is a powerful philosophy to keep.
The Professor

[nashville_brook]

176. i disagree that "feminist" as a term of art is a barrier

when you say "zero barriers," what do you mean? could you be more specific?

when you say "label," what does that mean to you?

[Bunny]

18. It became a term of derision when

women began calling people (mostly men) on some of their sexist crap. In other words, interfering with their god-given right to be asshats. IOW, ganging up on those poor men!

[benevolent dictator]

19. There aren't many

colleges with my major, and one of the ones that has it happens to be a small, Conservative, Christian college in the middle of Texas.

When people ask why I didn't go there, I stare at them for a second and say, "Well as a Liberal-Feminist-Lesbian-Atheist-Corporate-Hating-Baby-Killing-Tree-Hugging-Environmentalist-Nut, I think I'd probably get lynched. Not to mention I don't think they'd like it much when my girlfriend came to visit..." The reactions I get are great, especially when I say it to people I haven't known very long.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. Same tactic as with the word "liberal".

See also: vegetarian, environmentalist (and its many synonyms and subtrends), pacifist.

[southlandshari]

21. I am a proud feminist

I sure don't fit the stereotype some seem to have, though. I think true feminists are a wonderfully diverse and interesting group that cannot be defined in a simplistic manner, and certainly shouldn't be cast in a negative light, especially here on DU!

:D

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sundog]

25. but i am

:P

hey ya bunny :hi:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sundog]

56. why thank you

:P

[southlandshari]

27. I sure hope not!

Others who have seen me will have to judge the ugly part. But I sure do love men in general, and especially all of the wonderful ones here on DU!

And, well, um, I wouldn't much like it if they were all castrated. Better leave it at that, lest I turn this in to a sex thread...

:blush:

[Misunderestimator]

29. LMAO!

:rofl: :thumbsup:

:yourock:

[Avalux]

24. Anti-feminism has no place here -

that should be made clear right now. Women have fought long and hard for their rights and anyone who would attempt to denigrate or even jokingly diss feminism should reconsider posting on a progressive message board.

For whatever reason, the Lounge has become the place to argue about misogyny, feminism, and other serious subjects. It shouldn't be, even if disguised as a joke.

I know what we need - more kitty posts. Incidentally, I posted a pic of my beautiful kitty a few minutes ago and it got one reply. That's just wrong.

Let's have fun here folks, it's the Lounge!

:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

28. Here... this kitten is what's inspiring me right now...

:D

[Avalux]

36. How cute!

He/she looks playful - they're so much fun. :hug:

[Wetzelbill]

74. yeah you know I was amazed...

to find out that women could vote in Turkey before they could here in the U.S. That blew me away. Women have fought long and hard just to get certain rights they should have been entitled to have. The U.S. isn't nearly as progressive as we should be on this issue. Instead of waving a flag, patting ourselves on our backs for how great and free we are, what we really need to do is work on making our great country even greater. Instead, we're doing the opposite.

[MemphisTiger]

32. Somehow it got linked with the male-hating types

who are the "butchy" for lack of a better word lesbians. This stereotypes seem to have been promoted by hollywood. Have you seen the movie PCU? That is the stereotype people have of feminists. Also, most of the fundie leaders feel that the decline of American civilization coincides with the beginning of feminism.

[swag]

40. That in itself is a phony stereotype.

I have many friends whom others would call "butch" or "bulldykes" (a couple of them classify themselves as such). I have yet to meet these elusive man-hating feminists or lesbians.

I have trouble linking "man-hating" with feminism or lesbianism.

[sundog]

53. ding... using a stereotype to dispel a stereotype

:wtf:

foot meet mouth

[swag]

66. You're right.

I guess the world is so amorphous that no descriptors apply to anything.

Excuse me while the rest of me dissolves into insubstantial substance.

[MemphisTiger]

84. While I agree

it seems this is the typical feminist that many have who have never met one. You asked for an opinion and I gave it to you. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

[swag]

90. I didn't intend any hostility at all toward you or your post,

I was just trying to make an ancillary point, but apparently I failed in more ways than one.

Best to you.

[MemphisTiger]

93. My mistake

:pals:

[brainshrub]

35. It is impossible to use the word "feminist" in a negative context.

The only way feminism becomes a term of derision is is you allow it to. Threads like this give power to the blind sewer-rats of the world.

I do not accept the concept that Feminism can be used in a negative context. To me, calling someone a feminist is akin to calling someone "intelligent," "attractive," or "graceful."

Once Progressives realize that feminism is an inherent compliment, we take control of the term again in much the same way the Shakers and Gays have done.

In closing, I would like to say that Misunderestimator, and everyone who posts in this thread, is a Liberal Feminist.

###

Off topic. (Kinda)

Can you think of an uglier insult than calling someone a Republican? That would be akin to comparing someone to a blind sewer-rat.

[Misunderestimator]

42. Great post, brainshrub.

I don't think I quite understand the first paragraph, as it seems you think that me creating this thread gives power to those who use the term derisively? I mean it more in a sense of standing up in the face of the storm of all that's gone on recently and saying...

"Wait a minute! We're all feminists here. We're all liberals here. Right?"

But the rest of your post agrees with that, so I think we're in agreement in general.

Thanks!

[brainshrub]

79. Let me use the following example to explain first paragraph.

Imagine I started the following post:

When did "Electrician" become a term of derision?

While it's true that "Electrician" is a neutral word, and an honorable profession; the very act of floating such a question implies that a significant number of reasonable people consider the term "electrician" an insult.

The subconscious mind gets this message: "Don't admit you're an electrician! What if your boss or customers don't like electricians? OMFG! Only an extremist would want to be called an electrician!"

I know this is illogical, but that's how our minds work... and it's the key to understanding how the RW has been able to control the debate. They certainly aren't winning with good ideas.

Republicans, being the blind sewer-rats they are, accuse a candidate of supporting policies that would benefit everyone. (Otherwise known as Liberal ideas.) The candidate is then tempted to fight back and explain how supporting policies that would benefit everyone is a good thing.

In doing so, the candidate might win the short-term argument, but she has unwillingly spread the seed in the electorate that policies supporting policies that benefit everyone is an insult.

This incident has just reminded me of an incident from my childhood:

In grade school, there was a new kid who was accused of being a "chocolate eater." The new kid didn't know that we meant it as an insult. (As in someone to enjoys eating feces.)

He smiled, opened his lunch-box and took out an over-sized Hersey's bar. "I sure am a chocolate eater!" he replied proudly, "And I have plenty to share."

No one in my class was ever called a chocolate eater again.

The next time you read a thread about how feminism should somehow be taken as a negative, either ignore it or open your lunch-box. Feminism is delicious, and there's plenty to share.

[Misunderestimator]

96. Ok, I can get that!

And I agree with you to a certain extent. But how can one address a problem of using feminism as a derogatory word without talking about it being used as a derogatory word?

I do agree that one running for office would be ill-advised to use this thread title as a campaign slogan. :)

So, is it just in the way I presented it? I can see that making it the focus by putting it in the title could encourage more acceptance of its use in a derisive manner. I just don't know how else to approach discussing the problem of people using feminism as a derogatory word, any better than I would be able to discuss the use of the word "liberal" without having the same effect. :shrug:

[brainshrub]

120. Suggestion:

Ignore it, or face it down.

Post title: People are calling Brainshrub is a hairy male hetrosexual.

Post text: "Brainshrub, being the hairy male hetrosexual he is, farts loudly and enjoys playing with his tools in the basement. His kind have historicaly destroyed whole ecosystems with his kind of tinkering."

Wrong Reply:

"I am not hairy! In fact, I am losing hair on my head! I barly touch my tools! (Crowd snickers) In fact, I'm not very good with my tools at all!!! (Crowd snicker lounder.) Here is a link to hairy male inventors who helped people. We are not all evil! I deeply resent your comment, I will now stalk your threads for the rest of the evening."

Right reply: (If I reply at all.)

"Well, I disagree that anyone is calling me hairy. But I value what little hair I do have... especialy my back hair. I guess it's true that I enjoy helping people around the neighborhood by fixing their appliances in the basement. I know old widow Ms. Sadcowski said I was handy to have around when her sewing machine broke. She made the an awsome greenpeace banner> after I was done with the repairs."

ON EDIT: I forgot to thank for the compliment. :pals:

I know from reading your posts that you are creative enough to come up with these kind of comments for people who malign Liberal ideals such as femanism.

Femanism is not a frail insect, she is an iron butterfly that only gets stonger with time. No ranting by the RW will ever change that.

P.S. (Note I didn't address the farting.) :hide:

[Misunderestimator]

124. It's not the same thing, when no one has called you that....

Or at least there hasn't been a surge of people using your name in a derisive manner.

Either I am misreading you, or you think I posted something snarky. I did not. I have seem people use FEMINIST as an insult here. I don't see how pointing that out is snarky.

Nor do I see how you could equate anything I do with treating feminism as a frail insect.

[brainshrub]

149. I understand. (Or at least I'm trying to.)

Feminism can't possibly be used as an insult. It's like trying to convince people that the pursuit of knowledge is a bad thing. Such assertions come from a space of ignorance.

Claiming that feminism is considered an insult by a significant number of thinking people is a myth. That is what I meant by the frail insect vs iron butterfly analogy.

An honest person might be framed or slandered, but that does not effect the integrity of the individual. Similarly, Feminism might be maligned in the short term by people who are not educated enough to understand how much they have directly benefited from it, but assertions from the ignorant do not effect the strength of the concept of feminism.

###

I get insulted in other ways all the time. I know when it happens, I just chose to ignore them or reply from a space of love instead of perpetuating the negative vibe.

You are correct that I don't know what it feels like to be insulted for being a woman, or being black or not coming from the right class. This is one of the reasons that I'm proud to be a feminist: While I may not have personal experience with that kind of discrimination, I acknowledge it exists and I support policies that remove it.

###

I didn't think you posted anything snarky. That wasn't the implication. (I'll edit that last part now.)

[Misunderestimator]

153. Ok, I understand what you're saying as well...

(I sent you a pm. I must have misinterpreted the snarkiness thing.)

I agree with you that fundamentally, feminist cannot be used as an insult, much the same way that liberal cannot be. But they are. And yes, I understand that even my talking about it perpetuates it. What bothers me though is that it's happening among progressives. Therefore it needs to be talked about. At least, that's where I was coming from.

I know also that I can be combative and confrontational, although I like to think that I pick my battles rather wisely, if not always wisely. I think there is a place for confrontation and there is a place for diplomacy.

I'm with you on this: "Claiming that feminism is considered an insult by a significant number of thinking people is a myth." Definitely needs to be qualified with the word "thinking." :thumbsup:

:hug:

[redqueen]

147. Brilliant.

:toast:

[Misunderestimator]

155. Wow... You edited this! Good post!

Now my first response doesn't look quite right, but ok.

This is much better!

[brainshrub]

158. Someday I will be a half-decent writer.

90% of my posts have glaring errors in grammar, spelling and context. When I post something more than a few paragraphs long, I usually spend the 60 minutes window editing and re-editing.

Even then, I miss mistakes.

"...she has unwillingly spread the seed in the electorate that policies supporting policies that benefit everyone is an insult."

Should be: "she has unwillingly spread the seed in the electorate that policies that benefit everyone is an insult."

and

"This incident has just reminded me of an incident from my childhood:"

Should be: "This conversation reminds me of an incident from my childhood:"

###

*sigh*

My 7th grade English teacher would so disappointed with me. (Oh well, at least the chocolate was good.)

[Misunderestimator]

159. LOL.... Nah, you do great!

At least you catch them. I hate when I post something, don't re-read it and find a glaring mistake hours later that has been misinterpreted (rightly) by a number of people and I can no longer edit to clarify. Not that that ever happens to me. ;)

[brainshrub]

160. Oh God! Now I've gone and proofed post #96

Now look what you've made do! Gah!

"People are calling Brainshrub is a hairy male heterosexual."

Should be: "People are calling Brainshrub a hairy male heterosexual."

and

"She made the after I was done with the repairs."

Should be "She made this banner for GreenPeace after I was done with the repairs."

There's more, but you get the idea.

I am seriously thinking of going back to school to learn how to edit.

[nashville_brook]

165. the old "when did you stop beating your wife" thing

[Wetzelbill]

77. I like that

Intelligent, attractive or graceful. Nicely said.

[no_hypocrisy]

39. Short answer: When Nancy Reagan held herself out as a lady, not

a woman. She became the role model for American women rather than Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Betty Freidan, and Gloria Steinem.

Longer answer: "Feminist" joined the term "liberal" as a lightening rod for the republicans and became synonymous with "commie", "lesbian", etc. I believe that even progressive women didn't like being put in a defensive posture and backed away first from the moniker and then from progressive political action in the name of women everywhere. Then they had daughters who have taken all the work done in the 60's and 70's for granted and believe they will always will be able to get unlimited access to birth control and abortion. If being a feminist here on DU is a problem for some folks, so be it. It's an ideology, not a character trait and it will be promoted no matter what it's called or not called. I for one will be a feminist until the day I die.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Oh, about six months after it became a term of empowerment.

It's always been spewed as some sort of derogatory term by people who are afraid of change. More recently it seems to be seen as a dated term, relevant to earlier women but not to younger ones who see equal opportunity in the work place, reproductive choices, and other achievements of earlier feminist initiatives.
Why you find derogatory comments here about feminism, I don't know. Not every progressive is progressive equally on all issues. Not every DUer embraces the label 'progressive' or 'liberal' either.

For me, the best use of my time on these boards is to learn something from the heated exchanges among self-defined Democrats. I've lived in rabidly liberal and progressive areas since college. Without a platform like DU it would be difficult for me to remember the range of opinions in the Big Tent.

p.s. IMO, anyone who tangles with you is cruising for a bruising, but that doesn't mean you're obligated to fight here.

[Finder]

47. I haven't seen feminism portrayed that way here.

I have noticed some use the term "radical feminism" as if it is a negative thing but I try to comment when I see that.

I am also a feminist and a progressive but all feminists are individuals and definitely have their own quirks.

Just because some are not thrilled by a few posters who self-identify as "feminists" does not mean they are bashing women/feminism as a whole.(akin to not liking Alan Keyes being interpreted as being racist)

Also, women/feminists are not above competing for "alpha" status.lol I see a lot of that too but that is a group dynamic of humans in general.

Peace

[southlandshari]

61. I have

Unfortunately, there have been posts that use the term "feminist" as a slur, a word used with derision instead of celebration. And that kind of association of feminists with something ugly or undesirable has no place on DU, IMHO.

I'm not posting about anyone or any thread in particular. Just saying that it is undeniably a problem we deal with here from time to time.

:hi:

[Finder]

67. You mods are quick to nip that quick...

I agree, it has no place here and I am sure it is freepers for the most part or knee jerk remarks. At least I hope so.

Good job on catching the offenders, btw.

[southlandshari]

72. Thanks!

We try. It is always helpful when folks alert us to problems rather than engaging those that they find offensive.

:-)

[Misunderestimator]

62. I've seen people label all the feminists here as "radical feminists"

...not just a few of us.

Since you brought it up... the phrase "self-identify as feminists" which I've seen around here lately, also smacks of some sort of condescension. When and where did this "self-identify as feminist" meme start?

I don't know any "radical feminists" here personally. And I don't know anyone competing for alpha feminist. (Though the concept is quite humorous :rofl:). Do you?

[ghostsofgiants]

76. What's funny..

Is that in all likelihood, most of the time when you see "radical feminism" it's probably not being used properly anyway. Radical is usually used as a term of derision around here too, when often it shouldn't be.

[Finder]

81. Well I am called a radical fem myself...

for some of my stances but like any label, it reflects more on the person doing the labeling and I am the type that frankly could care less what people label me as.

I didn't mean that in any condescending manner. I mean if you stated that you hated broccoli, it does not mean that broccoli lovers are not feminists because you as a prominent feminist on DU hate it.(unless veggies have been added to the manifesto)lol

My attempts at humor sometimes come across the wrong way sometimes, I think.

[Bunny]

82. Aw ,shit. And I thought I was the alpha feminist!

Alpha feminist? Isn't that one of the funnier things you've heard lately? :rofl:

[Misunderestimator]

86. Bunny, you can be the alpha feminist anytime!

:yourock: :)

[Bunny]

91. Well, thanks MisU! Let's take turns - being the alpha feminist

is very tiring, and there are days when I'd like to rest. :D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. So then they like feminists, they just hate Misunderestimator?

[Wetzelbill]

50. I was curious about that myself

I've heard people say the word "feminist" like they just spit out a piece of rotten meat or something.

I don't know so much about when it happened, or even when it happened on DU though. I think from 1980 on being for Civil Rights, women's rights and fighting for certain causes has been misconstrued as a sign of weakness. This has become even more predominant since the 1994 Gingrich Revolution. You see this a lot. Environmentalists have become "Tree Huggers." Feminists are "Feminazis." If you stand up for the poor or minorities, you're "librul" and I mean that in the newly hijacked negative form. Meaning that you are weak or wimpy and don't believe in hard work etc.

As for the derogatory use of the word "feminist," I think men - even some liberal men, especially younger ones- are threatened by strong women. It may even be subconsciously, but I think this is the case, more than we would ever like to admit. Threatened and maybe, a bit intimidated.

Men basically walk around every day with raging hormones, especially when we are younger, so we think of women in a purely physical way all the time. Our power often resides in our "other" head, because when men treat women as sexual objects we have the upper hand. Now this is whether we even mean to do so or not. I think so anyway. You know, guys are pretty stupid, we're definitely oblivious to things that offend and hurt women. My relationship on DU with you has taught me a million things just in the last month or so. And, I'm someone who is willing to learn, many guys aren't. So I think once a guy runs into a strong, intelligent woman who isn't a pushover for a little charm, well, we blanch at that. Some more than blanch, I suppose. I have seen posts where a guy will use the word "*itch" in the subject heading and wonder why women were offended. Ok, I can see how they can make a mistake, in the spirit of messing around in the Lounge etc, but what is inexcusable, is I've seen the same guy argue up and down the thread that women shouldn't be offended by that word etc.

It gets ridiculous. I mean that stuff might cut it with your 20 year old gf who is cowed by you, but not with some of these DU women who've been fighting the fight their whole lives. I think at the heart of that lies the power issue, though. Men, in general, are used to being in control. Whether it's ogling a Britney Spears video, or seeing a Joe Sixpack fat guy on our favorite sitcom, married to a skinny, gorgeous wife, men don't understand that we take for granted things women still have to fight for. It's ok for us to be fat, it's ok for us to try to screw every woman in sight, it's ok for us to treat women like cattle half the time, because that's what a male-centric society allows us to do. Now, if women don't like a flippant remark, well, gosh, they should just "lighten up." Never mind that you all have to deal with BS that us men have no idea about. You can afford to be pretty oblivious when society gives you the upper hand, and that's how most men are.

Personally, I love feminist women. I'm the most attracted to them, I'm more likely to have friendships with them etc. I love intelligence and strength. I'm not intimidated or threatened by it at all. Not in that sense anyway. I may be more nervous about asking someone out like that, because I may think she is out of my league, but that's another thing altogether, lol. So, I can't see why even liberal men are still so disrespectful about equality like that. It puzzles me. It could be we're stupid products of a male-centric environment. But, being a progressive I don't buy that as an excuse. Something else is at work there too.

I just rambled. I can't really say why. Not fully.

But, it's not right that's for sure.

I tell you this, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, though. That's the truth too. :)

[Misunderestimator]

64. You've come a long way, baby!

Thank you Bill! You've gained a lot of respect in my mind as well. Very well thought out response. It is much appreciated.

:hug:

[Wetzelbill]

87. you're welcome

Oh, I love pondering over this stuff. I'm a writer, so I love to be challenged by questions. Then I tend to write out long responses to them too. Issues of race, gender and poverty are what really make me go off the most. If I'm not stopped, I will yammer on forever, lol.

Glad you appreciated it. :) :pals:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

89. Great post. I love it when men post these things

:thumbsup:

[Wetzelbill]

95. oh wow, thanks, NSMA

I'm like a giddy little puppy dog when I get you and MisU's approval, haha. Like I just got a pat on the head or something.

If there only was a wagging tail emoticon. Curses! :)

[redqueen]

152. Wow!

Fantastic post... thank you! :hi:

[xmas74]

173. Thank you.

We need more men like you in this world.

[alarcojon]

178. Hi, Bill! Great post!

This line is especially insightful:

when men treat women as sexual objects we have the upper hand

It is very easy, in this society, for a man to "put a woman in her place" by reducing her to her body parts, whether verbally, visually, or otherwise. So, when confronted by a woman he can't immediately overpower, an inwardly weak man can always use physical strength or objectification to "turn the tables."

Like you, I love feminist women. I married one. Looking back at my close female friends, I cannot think of one who would shy away from the term "feminist."

[WhollyHeretic]

51. We've let the right wing attach a negative stigma to so many

things that should be sources of pride for people.

Being a feminist should be something someone should be proud of.
Same thing with being a liberal or an environmentalist these are not things to be ashamed of.

I call myself a feminist but my mother and sister who are both democrats will not call themselves feminists. We've got to take back things like feminism and make them sources of pride for people. Unfortunately calls for equal rights are often met with the ridiculous label of "politically correct". I get very upset when liberals parrot the republican line of PC. Using the term politically correct to dismiss other peoples ideas and concerns is mindless and insulting.

[MindPilot]

60. In any group there are extremists

Like liberalism, environmentalism, and pretty much every other ism, feminism has come to define the extreme positions rather than the mainstream in the popular lexicon. We are as susceptible and guilty as they are tossing around terms like nazi, christer, racist, misogynist and NASCAR.

You're right; at least here on DU, we are all fundamentally on the same page (so to speak):D and we should be able to discuss these issues without getting hung up on the words or perverting the language.

[Mabus]

65. Back in the 60's

when women began asking for equal rights. Most participants in the Women's Liberation Movement were depicted as having something wrong with them.

Also, in my groggy, coffee fed memory I remember the push to add the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment) the constitution in the early 70's. We had "ERA now" bumperstickers on all our cars. This was soon after Nora Effron (?) wrote her book excoriating CBS for its "liberal bias". Anyway, feminists were stereotypically depicted as less-than-feminine or lesbian. It's been going on for a long time and has always been there in the background. It resurfaces from time to time, especially when the GOP is control.

[Misunderestimator]

69. Which of course, also brings the question...

What the heck is wrong with being a lesbian? But that's another subject. :)

Good post, thanks.

[Mabus]

92. My mom was suspected of being a lesbian

back in the 1950's. She was a WAC (Women's Army Corps) and an athlete. She played for a WAC exhibition basketball team that travelled through the United States (which how she met my dad at Parris Island where he was stationed). She told us about one night how half the team was taken away and she was questioned the next morning. She said the psychatrist asked her how she felt about women to which my mom (remembering the women in her life, her mom, grandmother, aunts, etc.) said she loved women. Mom was questioned for most of the day before they concluded that she was "normal" (hetro) and let her go. She asked where her missing teammates were and she was told they were "sick" and were being treated for their "illness". They also advised her not to worry about her former teammates.

Mom died back in '96. She left us some tapes about her life and this story is on there. She said she always worried what happened to her former teammates and cited it as one of the reasons she became political in her life. BTW, mom was FBI (full blooded Indian) and she empathized with being considered different all her life. It rubbed off and most of us (my siblings) are politically active and aware.


Thanks mom, wherever you are!

:loveya: :hug:

[Misunderestimator]

98. Wow. That's quite a story!

Did she ever find out what happened to her teammates? :(

She sounds like an amazing woman! :hug:

[Mabus]

113. No, she never found out

She was just confused on why it was bad if people loved each other. She was great. I miss her.

[Wetzelbill]

105. great story

wow. I'm Blackfeet, btw.

Your mom sound like one strong woman. I bet she was something else. :)

[Mabus]

117. She was remarkable

If I may say so myself. She became tribal chair, after having to go to court to get the votes counted (Western District Oklahoma) in the early 60's. She was very politically active, a precinct committeewoman, she testified in front of Congress repeatedly and housed/raised money for AIM. She was my role model. If she saw a problem, she got in there and tried to fix it.

[Wetzelbill]

122. my grandfather was President of the NCAI

around that time. He's been my role model for a while. Tribal chair, friend of JFK, RFK, Mike Mansfield etc. So I understand your pride, for sure.

Yeah, you really have to give it up to those that fought so hard for us. It was pretty tough in those days too. We have a lot to live up to, no doubt. :toast:

[Mabus]

132. Here's a resolution she signed back in 1990

She would be happy with the NCAA's recent ruling. I'm very proud of her.

http://www.aics.org/NCRSM/id40_m.htm

[Dastard Stepchild]

68. When it became equated with being a lesbian....

The feminist movement wasn't very kind to its lesbian sisters in the beginning, and I think that when our lesbian sisters started to demand that their voices be heard as well, women jumped ship. And then the public got on board and linked the two together in their minds... feminist = lesbian. For whatever reason, people take it as a personal affront when you accuse them of being gay, lesbian, bi, etc. Sad and stupid, sad and stupid.....

Anyways, that has always been my theory.

But I'm here, checking in. I am a feminist, a bisexual, a progressive liberal, and an animal rights activist.
:hi:

[Misunderestimator]

75. Thanks for the post. That's definitely one of the angles...

so it's inextricably bound with homophobia. Which do we get rid of first?

The most distressing thing is that such a weapon could be effective. That a person's civil rights are less important than a strangers' perception that they might be gay. Wild.

[MemphisTiger]

88. Good explanation

it does seem to be tied with homosexuality. While we know it will get people to the polls, it's not surprising that many have probably never met someone who is gay.

[Dastard Stepchild]

100. I think it is very closely bound....

The biggest insult the public can lob at a man is that he is a sissy lady-man (read "a homosexual"), and the biggest insult the public can lob at a woman is that she is mannish (read "a lesbian").

If one has testicles, there is no crime greater than being a "woman" in our society. If one is without testicles, there is no crime greater than "not being a woman." And if you dare transcend these rigid roles... God help you.

:eyes:

[Moochy]

104. Gender Crimes

All of an individuals actions are just preparatory acts to that of procreation. Society & culture are foreplay. :)

What's wrong with you all, get your priorities straight you radicals.
Now back to the breeding pens, proles. The most fertile of you will be selected as handmaidens for the veterans of the Culture Wars.

[Dastard Stepchild]

111. Listen... I'll go along with the barefoot...

But I am NOT standing in the kitchen.

:)

[Finder]

102. It is xenophobia we need to get rid of...

in general. The right wing depends on xenophobia to retain power. Some of shit I read/see demeaning tolerance and diversity is mind-boggling. Those are the other two terms that have been redefined by other side.

[Misunderestimator]

107. We definitely need to get rid of xenophobia... but what hasthat to do with

accusing feminists of being lesbians?

I would ask what you mean as examples of the shit you've read that demeans tolerance and diversity, but that's pretty much a thread of its own. Definitely mind-boggling, as your sig so aptly puts it.

[Finder]

123. Homophobia is a type of xenophobia.

The fear of those that are different, may it be ethnicity, lifestyle, sexuality, gender, religion, etc.

Just follow any discussion on public schooling and you will see the right wing equating teaching tolerance and diversity to some ridiculous plan to indoctrinate children into homosexuality or communism or whatever else is on their plate to demonize. What is scary is people believe that shit.

[Misunderestimator]

127. That's very true. We definitely agree on that!

:thumbsup:

[southlandshari]

108. I agree completely

The far right has scored some unsettling success, IMO, at demonizing terms that used to hold so much positive meaning - tolerance and diversity are great examples. They have become terms of scorn and shame to far too many as a result of being hit hard and hit often by conservative talking points.

We've got to find a way to come together here and be unified retaking our own language, IMHO.

[Dastard Stepchild]

119. Yes, "tolerance" and "diversity" are used by some as insults...

And, I'm sad to say, not just by RW smear machines. I've had some liberal pals (not here on DU, though it may happen here) tell me that diversity is what you want when the "other side" has guilt-tripped you into feeling sorry for them.

:wow:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. I don't care much for the word tolerance

It implies one should "tolerate" those that are different

[Moochy]

128. It definitely cedes alot of ground

As a word, it's nothing to fight for.

[Wetzelbill]

me neither

It seems condescending to me. Like," oh, I'll tolerate gay people, but I don't like them." Wow, how f'ing big of you to say that.

Psh...

I tolerate stupid people every day of my life. I guess it works in that manner.

I much prefer to "embrace" those different than me, not to just "tolerate" them.

I think part of it is the word tolerate means that it's ok to have no empathy or compassion for others. I don't think not hating is good enough, we need to care and love. That's what ticks me off about the Christian Right. I'm religious, I know many here aren't, but I can tell you this. Jesus Christ didn't tolerate anybody. He loved and cared for them. Whether they were a leper or a tax collector or a prostitute he embraced these people. Tolerance is a way to look the other way and still try to sleep at night. It takes someone special to love and embrace. That's what seperates us from the hyporcrites. That ability to have compassion for others.

[Misunderestimator]

134. Embrace those different than me... not just tolerate them.

Bill... Another great post! Not hating is definitely NOT good enough.

You're ok, Bill. :hug:

[Moochy]

154. embrace differences

Interesting thread Misunderestimator. I remember some TV show like Jerry Springer's or some such nonsense where a bunch of white skinheads were saying that "multi-culturalism" was a good thing, because it allowed each "race" to stick up for itself, in some darwinian WWF pay-per-view utopia.

[Wetzelbill]

166. See, I told you!

:)

You're pretty damn more than ok yourself. :)

[Finder]

133. would it be better to be intolerant?

Tolerating differences is the first step to understanding them. If we refuse to engage or associate with those we don't agree with we would miss out out on so much.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. Acceptance would be far better. It places greater responsibility on the

intolerant.

[Finder]

139. Well I personally only tolerate fundies...

just kidding. I think the word tolerance is prob like the word theory. It has different meanings depending on the context. I think of tolerance as the ability to co-exist in spite of differences.

Acceptance would come after tolerance in most cases but I don't see them as meaning the same.

[Dastard Stepchild]

161. Tolerance may be the best we can hope to achieve in some instances...

I don't really like the word "tolerant" myself, but I can imagine scenarios in which tolerance is the closest we can get to acceptance.

For example: I am a vegan. I would love it if everyone was a vegan, but I acknowledge that people love themselves some ribs and chicken. Therefore, I tolerate the eating of meat, but I do not accept it as good or appropriate. I'm not looking down on the person, but tolerating the behavior because I acknowledge that people will make decisions for themselves that may run contrary to what I believe to be morally and ethically right. My tolerance allows me to feel a sense of peace when confronting a person who acts in ways different than me - I don't have to abandon my morals when I practice tolerance, and you don't have to hear a 30-minute spoken dialogue on the evils of meat. I think that in instances of deeply personal moral convictions, tolerance may be the closest two people will come to keeping the peace.

[Finder]

162. good analogy. (nt)

[Moochy]

94. Anti-feminism another aspect of anti-intellectualism

Anti-feminism is the sexist front on the attack on intellectualism in this country. When the right gets tired of framing the issues they go after what keeps people from believing their hate-filled lies: Higher Education.

But since anti-intellectualism gets its fuel from anti-elitism, it's of limited rhetorical/political usefulness. Anti-feminism taps into the universal sexism of our male dominated western society. It works on male and female liberals and conservatives better than just plain anti-elitism that gives anti-intellectualism much of its power.

Politicians and Talk Radio Hosts who harp about "radical feminists" or worse "feminanzis" are appealing to the most sexist and regressove elements of society. They seek to exploit the class divisions between the educated voter and their counterpart without any higher education.

This basic divide between classes has been skllfully used by the right lately. This is not a very good rhetorical tactic for Democratic Politicians whose base has come to accept higher education as an plank in the democratic platform, with the exception of using the uneducated as a warning sign or an examplar of failed higher education policy. Much like the homeless are used as the punchline in some right-wing morality play about capitalism.

For women who reject what they see as "extreme" feminism, often if you examine their responses, you'll see a conscious desire to not appear strident, or stigmatized as a "man hating feminist." Again here the critics of feminsim have picked up on feminism's worst cardinal sin, namely of making it's adherents undesirous to average sexist man. To decode, to seem as not suitable partners for a misogynistc patriarchial view of woman's role in a nuclear family.

People who use the term feminist derisively here are expressing their own sexism, and should be called out on it. When DU members make sexist statements, we unwittingly give strength to the worst of our enemies, and divide the "radicals" from the so-called moderates who willfully ignore their own role perpetuating sexism.

So you sexists, knock it off!

[Wetzelbill]

101. that's definitely interesting

I have found that under Bush being dumb and jingoistic has almost become a badge of honor. I have a friend who had bragged to me about not being educated, he disdains some of my opinions because I get them from "newspapers." He thinks that because I read alot I don't really know anything about the real world. Huh? It's foolish, because as many of us know, we observe the world, then through curiousity we then learn about it and with our intellect we analyze it. But, being smart has come to be a bad thing to some people.

I'm interested in how "extreme" or "radical" feminism is being framed to mean basic feminism in general. That entitlement and equality is now a radical notion. It's ridiculous. However, rhetorical tactics work well for the Right, so we'll see how this goes. I think Santorum may be so far off base on his notion of what constitutes radical feminism that it won't end up taking off. But, watch the church aspect of it. They build up grassroots bigotry with unparelleled skill. Finder informed me that church groups actually pay (bribe) women to be stay at home mothers now. Bribing women to give up free will and life choices. Pretty wild stuff.

[Finder]

112. Stay at home moms who homeschool....

in particular. Ever wonder where they find all those families they bus in during Bush rallies or protests?

[Wetzelbill]

118. good lord....

talk about raising your own little sheltered, narrow-minded, xenophobic army.

I'd hate to see the amount of brainwashing that goes on there. Incomprehensible to me.

[Moochy]

131. they are breeding the next generation of (R) voters

Fundy Christian Madrases, payed for by the right wing royalty.

[Moochy]

148. Dumb And Jingoisitc

That was their working subtitle for the Bush 2000 campaign before they came up with "Compassionate Conservatism." :evilgrin:

Santorum is clearly exploiting homophobia with his stand on gay marriage, I saw him on CSPAN this weekend hawking some freeper bathroom reading.

The moderator's question was about the quality of life for a child raised in the most functional gay couple vs. the most dysfunctional straight couple. He said something about the extremes of both gay and straight families not "proving" anything. But he appealed to people's gut reaction, which in translation: Deep down you know its not right.. Can I get a homophobic Amen!!

All of the studies he cites are from the same breed of right-wing scientist-for-hire hacks who write studies questioning carbon's role in global warming. Pawns,and hacks. They are whoring their profession for buck, and or to prove an ideological point.

[Zomby Woof]

97. Or worse yet

Deciding that there are categories of feminists who fall into acceptable and unacceptable divisions: "radical" versus "traditional", etc.

Radical is BAD, according to the conservative apologists. It conjures up some cartoony stereotype involving bra-burning. In fact, you see "bra burner" used in much the same way "towelhead" describes people of Arab origin. All feminists are therefore derided as cartoons worthy of ridicule, because of one narrow, poor stereotype, based on the fear and insecurity of an impotent male.

Radical means "root" - to get back to the very fundamental origin. So to me, radical is good - it means women making the very basic, very fundamental claim that they are human beings with all the rights and privileges human beings are entitled to claim. Period.

[bloom]

116. There are people out there co-opting and subverting the word feminism

http://www.feministsforlife.org/ (John Robert's wife) for instance. "refuse to choose" etc.

So I don't have a problem with that being condemned.

[iconoclastNYC]

103. When the MEDIA focused on the Feminists who are

Angry, Mostly Negative, and overly PC. These people are a minority but the Media shined the spotlight on them to discredit the movement.

So much comes back to : It's the media stupid.

Thank god for the Internet. The people, and the human race didn't stand a chance before it.

[alarcojon]

177. Important point

but I wouldn't go as far as to say the media shone the spotlight on the types you mention in order to discredit the movement. That would take a pretty vast conspiracy.

Instead, the media treated feminism the way it treats everything else - sensationalism. When you see homosexuals, the media shows the guys in leather with their butt cheeks hanging out (not that there's anything wrong with that B-)). When they show images of the Middle East, it's angry men chanting with their rifles in the air or women in burkas. Then lazy, provincial Americans by and large swallow the stereotypes.

If you include as part of the media Limbaugh and company, then they quite clearly traffic in and create negative stereotypes of the Left. I totally agree with NSMA upstream that these asswipes had a big part to play in the demonization of feminism. Unfortunately, the simplistic, divide-and-conquer ideas started on RW hate media then seep into the mainstream media in ways that the ideas of progressive media do not. I think the reason for THAT basically boils down to corporate and political power.

[WindRavenX]

106. I'm a feminist

If you have a problem with this-
FUCK THE HELL OFF!
;)

Misunderestimator- :hi: :loveya:

[Misunderestimator]

110. ...

:rofl:

:loveya:

[WindRavenX]

115. I'm at the point

Where I don't care about what people think of me. Oooo she's a FEMINIST. Oooo.
Don't want to know you. Piss off. Have a nice day chums ;)

[Moochy]

129. But your breeding prospects!!

Think of the leagues of chippendale-dancer-by-night right-wing-freeptard-by-day you are giving up on!! :cry:

[Finder]

145. Hey, what's wrong with chippendales?(nt)

[Moochy]

150. The ones on the right

The freeper ones!! Jeff Gannon's 'straight' ;-) allies.

[bloom]

109. I think using the word feminist/feminism

in a derogatory manner should be grounds for banning.

If people have soaked up that much right-wing nonsense - what are they doing here? :shrug: I think it's harassment.

[WindRavenX]

114. no kidding

I can't tell you how many times I've heard "What are you- some kind of FEMINIST" said around the boards. :eyes:

Good gawd people, it's an AWESOME label to call yourself a feminist- ESPECIALLY my male feminists! :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

125. oh but.....

feminists should just lighten up. Outright misogyny isn't that bad, come on!:sarcasm:

As a male feminist, I'm glad you think it's awesome that I call myself one. :)

[WindRavenX]

126. heck yes!

You wonderful men make life so much better!!! :D :D :D
:hug:

Embrace the "F" word, my friends.

[HEyHEY]

136. I think, as with most things, people always look at the most extreme

Examples and then group the sensible ones in with them. When alot of people think feminist they think of someone like Valerie Solanis... they just remember some lady yelling at them at some time or another.
INstead of what they should do which is actually dismissing the nuts and realizing what and who real feminists are and what they are on about.

[I Know How To Do it]

137. Checkout what Republican Senator Kay O'Connor of Kansas has to say on this

issue.


"A prominent female state senator has said that she does not support the 19th Amendment, which guarantees women the right to vote, and that if it were being considered today she would vote against it."


She just screams irony and hipocracy.
Head scratching article here:

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/local.pat,local/3acd030e.927,.html

[WindRavenX]

138. there are no words

She's too stupid to live.

[Misunderestimator]

143. Wow... just ... wow.

:crazy:

[I Know How To Do it]

156. As an elected Republican Female Senator who votes, I believe that

women shouldn't vote.

Can't..........stop..........laughing.

[Finder]

146. Damn...I agree...

women like her shouldn't vote.

[Moochy]

151. The Right Wing(s)

It's fair to consider the paralells between her views and those of ..

Another Right Wing Religious Group.

http://www.osamamovie.com/

[Wetzelbill]

163. I......

I really can't think of anything to say. I feel like I've been struck deaf, dumb and blind.

WTF is with these people?

[ananda]

140. I hate it that..

.. feminism ever gets a bum rap.

Even some normally intelligent, liberal, well-thinking women are afraid of the label feminist.

Not me. Proudly and loudly feminist am I.

Sue

[whatever4]

141. And when the Democrats win

As they surely will...will they hold their power any more righteously then the Reps? I have to wonder.

I'd say this attitude towards feminism indicates that the agenda both sides is very little different. It's about profit and control, no matter how good the dems are talking now. Wealthy politicians, none of them are very different, and they ALL sent us to war. It WASN'T that hard to see the war was fabricated. Dont lie to yourselves that the Dems were all innocent victims. We suspected. THEY were in positions to know far more than WE did.

Women and their rights, no matter who wins, will be seen as not very important. Not worth fighting about. Small potatoes. Welcome to the brave new world. Keeping women down is just part and parcel to it all.

It's been my fear, that the Dems won't have to work hard AT ALL to win. But will they be fighitng for us? Or will they be taken over by the same wealthy group? And in any case, will women do any better? Hardly.

Yeah, feminism, it's all whimpy whoosy stuff, meant to keep men down, is what they think, and what they'll promote. Women in this nation? They'll fall for it as easily as they fell for the Epilady, and the makeup and the plastic surgery and hair/nails/daily rituals of beauty torture that make or break us, in the eyes of so many. Be thin, be healthy, be all you can be, and don't worry about the sleep you don't get and the daycare costs we foot, the contraception we pay for, while their fertility is provided for free, by insurance. As a standard. Yeah, they'll fall for it, and believe it's silly to be a feminist. Woman's issues? They don't see any. They won't.

It's all about war, and us silly vapid women just don't get it. We and our "issues" will all be left easily behind.

Any feminine issues will be the bottom of the barrel. It already is. We're already third world standard for infant mortality. That is just one small measure, I know, but realize that at the same time this goes on...they target abortion...and provide fertility drugs to men. Endless hypocrisy to us, and it's never going to change.

I'd say, get used to being criticized for being feminist. To so many, we're just "bitching", and honestly, I don't think there's a thing we can do about it. Women in this nation aren't going to get it until it's too late. They plan to take care of all us bitches. Whoever they are...they have plans, many plans. Please don't think you're safe just because the Dems win. Dems helped put us where we are today. They aren't going to help women. They are going to use women. It's what politicians do, and we all know how many female politicians we have. Not nearly half. Go figure.

Men don't care, as a general rule. They do not face our issues and never will. For many, what we speak of, these are issues that don't touch them, they cannot understand, and their worlds are nicer and safer if they pretend it doesnt' really matter. So much easier to not understand. So much wiser to be ignorant. And THAT is what our nation does best, very best, best in the world. Heads in the sand. Our men are very little different from men in any nation. Our women? Not much wiser. Thirty years later and they STILL want to outlaw abortion in all it's forms. NO, they do not care, and will not care until they HAVE to care.

We haven't seen that since the 1920's. When we chained ourselves to fences just for the right to vote. We won't see it until things are very, very bad. It's how women are. We tolerate, in ways men cannot imagine, and very much will be done to us until we take steps to stop it. The bottom has the potential to be VERY low. I am thankful I have no daughters. Be oh so very carful, those of you that do. Pray.

[redqueen]

142. I would think in the 80's

I really don't know, but what you describe saddens me greatly. Some days I can deal with it... other times it's nearly enough to make me want to just give up on anyone who won't see reality.

[Jamastiene]

168. You certainly won't hear me using it in a

"derogatory manner" or going against it. I am woman. Hear me roar. I say feminism needs a revival right about now. I'm with ya.

[xmas74]

169. It has spilled over onto this site because

"feminist" is derogatory all over the US right now. In my area, I've heard it used in place of other, more severe words. They use it as a form of profanity.
I have a boss who says it w/ a sneer every single time he uses the word. You can hear it in his voice. Feminist=b*tch, as in "You're one of them feminists, aren't you!"
It's just the views of society spilling over onto the forum. It's not right and we all should know better.

[Samurai_Writer]

171. Did someone say "Radical Feminist"?

:hi:

Hey, why do you think I picked this name? Actually, it goes back to a local BBS on politics that was extremely conservative. I adopted the name 'RadFem' just to fuck with the Rushites.

I have seen the way certain people here attack any thread that is about feminism or feminists. It's sickening that a liberal forum would have such bigots on it. But then, I guess they are everywhere.

Peace,
Bella

[leftofthedial]

179. when it stopped being about equality

and as it has been used more and more frequently for another agenda

[Chovexani]

180. Don't ask me to explain DU!

As the great American poet Gwen Stefani once said...this shit is bananas. :P

(Sorry, DU has just really been pissing me off lately, it's why I kinda took a break from it)