At times like this, I know there is no God - rant

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

Normally I am agnostic. However, after what is transpiring from the whole Katrina debacle, I tend to move to a more atheist view. If there were a benevolent creator, would it/she/he/they let this happen? Would the creator let hundreds or possibly thousands of people, including children, die?

For every one person who thanks his/her god for a rescue, how many are dying? Where is their god, then? Are they not as worthy to live? What kind of games does this god, who supposedly loves everyone, play?

[arwalden]

1. You Are Correct...

... as if there was any doubt, tragic events like this should convince everyone that deities are mere myths.

[Clintmax]

2. I totally agree...

My sister sent me an e-mail yesterday saying that she believed the rapture was going to occur in a couple of days, and was worried that if I didn't get to church RIGHT NOW and ask gawd for his forgivness that I would not go up into the clouds with her when jebus comes to take everyone home!

I sent back a SCATHING mail explaining my beliefs to her which I'm sure she isn't going to like. But I don't care. She has become a religious fanatic and is starting to push her gawd down my throat? I don't THINK so!

[The2ndWheel]

3. And if it/she/he/they did let it happen

"If there were a benevolent creator, would it/she/he/they let this happen? Would the creator let hundreds or possibly thousands of people, including children, die?"

why would you want to pray to it/she/he/they?

Either there is no God, there is a God and it controls every action(except the bad stuff, that's Satan. Except God being all powerful, you'd think that couldn't happen), or there is a God and it just set life in motion but doesn't get involved.

But at least people still go to war over God(or whatever structure of power that was designed to control people you pray to), and probably always will.

[Deja Q]

4. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

The dead are in a far, far better place.

Let's concern on getting more of the living to remain in that erstwhile condition.

[arwalden]

5. No... They're Just Dead.

<<The dead are in a far, far better place.>>

:eyes:

[skygazer]

38. I have a friend whose 22 year old son was murdered last year

Several people have told her that he's "in a better place." It enrages her - her standard response is "what better place than home with his father and mother and little brother could there be?"

Thank you, no. I'll take my reality straight up and leave the superstition for those who seem to need it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. That's such an insensitive response

I hate when people say that. Or when they say, "It must have been God's will that he die" (in that horrible train accident; from bone cancer; in that mugging/murder; whatever the cause of death was) or the equally vapid "God called him home".

Shit, if "he's in a better place" was an appropriate answer, then it would be our ethical duty to kill our children as soon as they're born, wouldn't it?

Dumbasses.

Though most times, I don't think people are trying to be rude or assholes about it, they just have no idea what to say. Especially when the death was traumatic like murder, terrorist attack, war, accident, etc. They just aren't thinking well, and saying what they think is the most comforting, even though it isn't, very.

[skygazer]

46. You're right - they don't mean to be insensitive

They're trying to find something to say that will somehow make the other person feel better. As if anything could.

Really, the only thing you can possibly say in such a situation is, "I'm so sorry."

[kick-ass-bob]

6. I don't agree. But I also don't have the "Christian God" in mind either.

But, I assume I would just get a bunch of eye rolls for saying what I believe in this thread.

[Heidi]

8. I wouldn't roll my eyes.

No way.

[Seabiscuit]

16. I won't roll my eyes. I believe in something like a God, but it sure

isn't some Xtian fundie type of God. More like "the force" from Star Wars - you don't have to believe all the stupid shit about "God" floating around in order to believe in a creator and in something called "good" and "evil" at work in the universe.

[BikeWriter]

7. Any shred of belief I had died with my grand Daughter.

No God, no way.

[mr blur]

9. Rant away - you're absolutely right.

There's also no Allah, Jahweh, Vishnu, Apollo, Zeus or any of the other hundreds of True Gods.

[johnnie]

10. I guess it depends on what you would envision a "God" to be

If it is some dude who has long gray hair and sits on a throne on some cloud somewhere shooting lightning bolts out of his fingers, I don't believe in that either.
If it is a collective force of energy that ties us all together along with the whole of the universes, then I am more apt to think on those terms.
Just as I can't visualize forever, I can't get a complete grasp of what the god energy is. However I believe that we are all tied together and create our collective reality based on each others personal realities. Not everyone's creation of reality is Nirvana though which mixes up the good and the evil which we all must face.

[Telly Savalas]

32. I think theologian Paul Tillich made the argument..

that because such a god-energy concept is so difficult to wrap your mind around, traditional religions anthropomorphize God as a means of accessing it. The grumpy guy in a barcalounger in the clouds is merely a symbol for the divine essence of the universe.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. I don't remembering anything in the Bible about God promising that

we will never die, never have hurricanes, never have floods, or earthquakes, or wars, etc.

So to me, the existence of these natural phenomena does not mean that there is no God. It means that God doesn't interfere in natural processes.

When disaster strikes, we are often faced with the question "Where is God?" Or "Where was God"?

Well, for me, where I see God working is the millions of people who will donate money and resources; the thousands of people who risk their lives to rescue others; the doctors who will donate their time to help the sick; the people who are offering their homes to New Orleans people who are homeless now; the people who will forget their political and religious differences to help clean up and rebuild.

I think we get too confused because so many people speak theologically unsound things, only mentioning God when something good happens. So then people start to think that God is there only in the good times, but that bad things happen because God left, or ignored it, or wanted to punish those people. Especially we get this from the rightwinger Christians, who like to say "if youy pray for it, it will happen", and then, when it doesn't happen, they're told they don't have enough faith or something else. Or when they pray for their child to live, but she dies, then they think it's their fault or that God is capricious. Or who will say "God saved me from the hurricane!" to the wife of a man who died in the hurricane.

But that just isn't, I think we can plainly see, how God works.

And it's up to us, at least those of us who claim to be God-believers of whatever faith, to not try to force God into our mold and our idea of what a god shoulod be, but to adjust ourselves to who God is, and let God be God.

[moof]

12. " I think we can plainly see", what do you mean "we" paleface ?

Thanks for at least using the "think" disclaimer.

If only all the masses so inclined would use "think" instead of saying they "know".

[moof]

13. Who's the king of king killing thread killers ?

?

[ismnotwasm]

17. In the bible

It seems that God laid a lot of natural catastrophes down himself. But I've never bought into the the God saved this/God punished that mode. I understand the concept of free and unfettered will that is tied into the Adam and Eve story. (In fact, my son's middle name is Cain because of Steinbeck's "East of Eden") But I'm a agnostic through and through, which is not always a comfortable place to be. Sometimes I wish I had the faith of believers in a Deity or the certainly of the those who know there is no such thing. Being an agnostic can really suck, and it's easy to slip into atheism. Thank goodness for physics and math, at least for me (I'm horrible at math, but I love the stuff )Because it lets me know that the universe has room for a whole lot of intellectual/emotional and spiritual growth for us humans. We know so little.

[supernova]

18. I think similarly, Rabrrrrrr

:pals:

I don't understand the mentality that says "If there was a God, then he wouldn't let X happen."

God doesn't promise there will be no suffereing in this life, only that we will not suffer alone.

[rateyes]

23. That's right, IMHO...

I will not shove my belief about God down anyone's throat. God is bigger than any one religion's idea about who God is....no one understands completely, and if they say they do, they are either deluded or lying. One other place, besides in the people who are helping, do I see God---I see God in the people needing help---if we don't help them, we are refusing to help God. Again, this is MY PERSONAL belief...I am not trying to mandate that belief upon you, and will not judge you for believing differently...I am in no position to play "moralist" for anybody.

[Mad_Dem_X]

26. Well said!

BTW, I believe there is a greater power than ourselves at work in the universe, although I don't believe in the stereotypical Christian view of God.

[Greyhound]

34. OK, let me get this straight

Your "god" doesn't cause these disasters, nor does it help, is separate from nature, but gets the credit for the good that people do. Oh yes, and it needs lots of money. :wtf:

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. Yes, yes, yes, it's not about getting credit, no

[Kat45]

39. Thank you for saying that.

You explained it better than I could.

[Sanity Claws]

45. Rabrrrr, well put

Others may disagree with you, but I don't.

[manic expression]

14. Why?

death is just another part of existence. You can't have summer without winter. Thousands of people, including children, die ALL THE TIME. Death is not the end, look beyond that and see what is important.

[Union Thug]

15. Atheist here. Time for fantasy worlders to wake up..

A lot of good god is doing down there in NOLA. THe only good comes from the intrinsic goodness buried within humanity. God has nothing to do with any of it.

[PassingFair]

47. The gall of those who believe themselves "blessed" never

fails to sicken me. What about those who perish or suffer? Are they NOT blessed? For the record, one view on the gawd theme:

"Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot; or he can, but does not want to; or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can and does not want to, he is wicked. But if God both can and wants to abolish evil in this world, then how comes evil in the world?" Epicuris Philosopher

[rateyes]

19. Years ago a westerner was walking the streets of Calcutta, India...

amongst the abject conditions of poverty...hungry people, dying people....and, he said that "I wanted to look up at heaven and shake my fist and scream at God, but then, in that moment I realized that God was shaking his fist and screaming at me."

I believe in God (not the fundie version of God, mind you), but I don't believe God caused what is happening--and, I will not pretend to try and understand why God chose not to stop it---but, I do believe that God's heart is breaking right now, for the people affected by the Hurricane, for the victims of an illegal, unjust war, for the 30,000 children around the world that will die TODAY and TOMORROW from the PREVENTABLE conditions of poverty. And, I believe that God is angry with humanity when we fail to do what we can to prevent such suffering.

How many HUMAN hearts are breaking today over those 30,000 CHILDREN who die every day from dehydration, malnutrition--that's a disaster of catastrophic proportions that happens every day--and, it need not happen if humanity would follow God's instruction to take care of the least among us---there is enough food, clothing, shelter to take care of every living being on the planet. The problem is, we humans haven't distributed it like we should.

I grieve for those suffering in the Hurricane---I am angry that we have no real leadership that should have had the foresight to prevent most of that suffering by getting people out before the hurricane hit, and at the slow response afterward.

And, I grieve that most of us never even give thought to the death and destruction which happens all around our world every day because it's not happening in our own back yards.

That, my fellow DUers is NOT God's fault---it's ours.

[manic expression]

20. Was that westerner a missionary?

if so, he is a piece of scum. There are workers in Calcutta NOT Christian, and actually, the religious communities that have been there have done a lot of work to ameliorate the situation. Saying Mother Theresa did the most work there is like saying Lafayette won the American Revolution, or that McClellan defeated the South during the Civil War. Christian missionaries and their base aims have done more to hurt and even ruin entire continents and cultures than anything else.

Just my little comment.

[rateyes]

21. I do not know...

if he was a missionary or not. And, I tend to agree with you about missionairies "in general." In India, during colonialization, the missionaries came in there and tried to make, not just "Christians" out of the indigenous peoples there, but "western Christians." They imported a culture and equated it with Christianity---and, that's what happens in America, too. Fundies say, "Unless you believe in the God we believe in...and all the trappings---doctrine, that we believe...you can't be a Christian." It's a load of garbage.

But, that doesn't negate the fact that most of the time, most of us in America give very little thought to human suffering that happens every day that is preventable---and, we take no responsibility for our inaction---and, then when things like hurricanes happen we either blame God or deny God's existence. As I understand God---God lives in the hearts of people---God works through us, when we get off our butts and do that work----I won't blame God for things that I can prevent with the strength God has given me.

[manic expression]

24. OK...

Thanks for the clarification. I really despise missionaries, especially because India is the last continent on Earth to recognize the Goddess, as well as the last living non-monotheistic society, missionaries are in the process of ruining it. Did I mention that I have no respect for missionaries?

At any rate, here's my take on the whole thing:

Death is really just another part of existence. The beauty of spring does not come without winter. One must ask themselves if life can exist without death; it cannot. However, when one sees through both to see the eternal and pervasive that is within everything; that is the truth. When we get off our butts and work, that is our responsibility, and we are merely filling it. We are "God", everything from a human to the sun to the stars. We live, we die, we live again.

[rateyes]

29. I respect that belief...

you may be right. If it works for you, and makes you a better person, then, whether I agree with the "theological points" of it matters little to me.

[Mad_Dem_X]

27. "shaking his fist and screaming at me"

I feel the same - I remember seeing something, maybe a movie, where a character asks God, "Why do you allow all the suffering in the world?" and God answers, "Why do YOU allow it?"

[rateyes]

30. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make...

30,000 deaths of children EVERY DAY---that's 10 9/11's--that's how many Katrina's---and, it's EVERY DAY---from PREVENTABLE conditions of poverty---where is the OUTRAGE over that catastrophe and the fact that very few are helping? What's happening with Katrina is horrible, what's continuing in Iraq is horrible, what's happening all around the world with death/disease/destruction is horrible. We need to vent our OUTRAGE, and, more than that we need to ACT on that outrage.

Why are YOU (plural--humans) allowing it to happen---is a very good question, IMHO.

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. And the outrage over the 1-2 million kids who die from malaria every year

that's about 3,000 a day. And those are all preventable if, just in America, each American offered something like a quarter. Malaria would be basically gone, worldwide, poof, just like that.

That's far more of a moral outrage than one hurricane.

[rateyes]

35. I'm with you there. eom

[BlueJazz]

22. Never have Believed and probably never will until....

...some proof is shown....

My personal feeling is that ..Even if he/she/it does exist, I wouldn't want to be associated with such a Prick.
I pick my friends better than that..

[Arugula Latte]

25. Amen -- pardon the expression.

[BlueJazz]

37. Sometimes when people ask if I'm really an Atheist....

..I hold my hand and say: Swear to God! :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. LOL!

That's hilarious!


What a fucking dumb thing to ask. "Are you REALLY an athiest (because that would mean you are dumber than shit and it's the fucking funniest stupid thing I've ever heard, someone choosing to be an athiest, what an asshat, I mean, Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, at least the Jews believe in God and the Hidus believe in, fuck, I don't know, but at least it's something...but believing in nothing? How could anyone be so dumb and lead such a hollow empty life, it says right in the Bible that athiest go to hell so why don't you at least believe that and fear going to hell, I don't get it, well, anyway, just smile and act like I'm not appalled and afraid for their very soul and realize that I won't know this person in the hereafter, may God have mercy on his soul, and I just don't understand how anyone could not believe in God, I mean it's right there in the Bible, God's everywhere, says so, in the Bible, and that's the truth, so why would you ignore the truth, I don't get it...not believing, it's impossible, I don't believe that you really don't believe in God, it's just too dumb)?"

They should at least have the integrity to be honest with you and ask the WHOLE question.

[nini]

28. Great ... a religious war on top of everything else

>

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. Well, why not. Might as well add some more fuel to the fire!

By the way, your god is a ponce. A right nancy boy, and a poofta.

:P

Though I have to say, though I disagree with the OP, I really don't think he/she is looking to start a religious fight. I think it's more a declaration of frustration, than it is a declaration that religion X is bad.

[nini]

36. My God can beat up your God

:P


My nerves are as frayed as others.. I have to remember that as I'm usually one to defend anyone's to believe or not.. I don't want to fight with my own folks here... and that's what I'm seeing all over this board - myself as guilty as others.


I need a drink.

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Pfagh, my God *created* your God!

NYAH!!!!

In fact, I'm going to pull out all the stops and say to you "nyah nyah nyah nyah boo boo".

Take that!

[Sanity Claws]

44. I don't agree

God does not set everything in motion. There is free will. Mankind's failure to respect the environment is somewhat responsible for the disaster. Bush's failure to take action to correct what ensued is also an act of free will, and not up to God.
Let's just agree to disagree.