Any lawyers here? Is this illegal?

[Ladyhawk]

You are in the ER. A nurse approaches you with a syringe? You ask what's in it and she won't tell you. You say you won't take the shot until she tells you what's in it.

Instead she gets two sheriff's officers to hold you down and gives you the shot against your will.

Legal or illegal? What could a person do?

[Wonk]

1. Why are you in the ER?

[LastKnight]

2. i believe...

unless your unable to make the decision... you can refuse treatment... at least i think...

-LK

[Maddy McCall]

3. I think according to the patient's bill of rights...

you have the right to know.

http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/billrights.asp#Participation

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

13. The exception to that would be in a mental health situation

If you had been identified as a threat to yourself or others, then no, you may not refuse any treatment until a judge says you are sane or insane, in NY state that is within 72 hours.

[Wonk]

25. Based on some of Ladyhawk's previous threads...

I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet that that's what we're talking about here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=366664

[Overkil]

4. Sounds like a scary movie.....

but I don't think they can do that. I'm not a lawyer....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.....ok I know stupid inside joke sorry

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Depends on how much money you have, and if the sheriffs are armed

A person with money could hire a lawyer.

A person without money could hope that there would be no permanent effects of the injection.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

14. Ouch! Damn, the truth hurts. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

6. When you were signed in to the ER, were you not provided with

a patient's bill of rights? The hospital should provide this to you.

Tell us more about this. Was it you? Why were you in the ER?

[celestia671]

7. Sounds pretty illegal to me!

What if it were something you were allergic to? I could be wrong, but docs and nurses have to tell you what kind of medication they're giving you, esp if it's in a syringe.

[Misinformed01]

8. There is such a thing as "implied consent"

If the Doctors had reason to believe that you were unable to make a decision in your best interest (iow..if you were unconcious) then they could assume that if you were able to, you would choose the medical care they could provide.

To my knowledge, from a post on the internet, no matter how many details you provide, this is going to be an impossible question to answer. An attorney, and another Dr. would have to review your chart, and medical history.

[Lady President]

9. More facts?

Do you know any other fact? In general, an adult has the right to refuse any medical treatment. The person usually has to sign something saying they refused treatment against medical advice to protect the hospital against a suit.

There are a couple exceptions. If the person is placing themselves or someone else in immediate danger. (They show this on "ER" all the time.) The person is highly agitated and they need to sedate them to perform the exam and protect the staff. Hospitals can also get court orders to compel treatment. For example, someone has a communicable disease, but refuses medicine.

[Booberdawg]

10. Is there some reason why you didn't just ask your Dr?

This is really not an appropriate question for lay people without all of the facts and medical details / chart / history in front of them.

Just call the Dr. yourself and ask what it was.

[dreissig]

11. Depends on the State

I think it depends on the law in your state. "Patient's Rights" don't hold everywhere. What happened to you would not be legal in New York State.

[Maddy McCall]

17. There is a Clintonian Federal Executive Memorandum

that established the Federal Patient's Bill of Rights, and it hold authority over state laws.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

22. No, it does not. Only in Federal hospitals does it have the force

of law.
Hopsitals in any of the various states follow state laws.

States are allowed to implement the Federal Requirements as law, but there is not a requirement to do so.

[chrisesq]

12. I'll give you the answer to every legal question

It depends.

Without knowing the totality of the circumstances I can't give you a precise answer.

If the whole story is what you stated above is in fact the whole story, an assault and battery suit could be argued.

If that is not the whole story, I can't give a better answer without more information. Was the patient in question belligerant? Were they under arrest at the time? Are they a ward of the state? Were they a minor?

Normally, patients can deny any medical treatment that they desire unless there is informed consent.

You would have to elaborate a bit more on the details for me to give you a better answer.

[fishnfla]

15. What if the person was insane?

an habitually insane individual well known to the ER dept and the police?

[happyslug]

19. Insanity is a criminal term

Not a Psychological term and as such only applicable in criminal actions, what I believe you want to talk about is if the person is incompetent. The test is similar but is Civil in determination.

An incompetent person can not refuse medication because such a person does not what they are refusing, the problem then is when is a person incompetent.

In most states Incompetence is when a person is a harm to herself (or himself) or others OR otherwise unable to make decisions for themselves.

A person may be unable to work do to psychological problems and still be competent. Thus a person may be on SSI for mental problems but could still refuse to take medication they do not want to take.

A doctor has to examine the person and determine that he (or she) can not make a valid informed decision. One test for this is do they know who they are and what is being proposed to be done to them. Another test is asking them who they are and their relationship to their relatives. The doctor has to show that the person was incapable of making the decision, and even then most issue of incompetency has to be reviewed by a Judge based on the report of the Medical providers (and a person review of the alleged incompetence i.e. by the Judge asking questions to the alleged incompetent to see if she or he is competent or not (i.e. does he or she know what is going on).

I face the reverse situation every so often, I have clients come in to get a power of attorney (POA) for someone sick in the Hospital. The Hospital wants them to have it in case decision has to be made as to medical treatment. Power of Attorneys can only be made if a person is competent (even if that person has not been ruled by a Judge to be in-competent). I generally prepare the POA and then go to the hospital. I than ask the patient several questions to see if he or she knows what she or he is signing. One question I ask is I tell them their agent (generally their spouse) can use that power of Attorney to clear out their bank account, throw them into the street, sell their home, their car, their furniture and than have a good time in Atlantic City with their new flame. I generally get a laugh about that or a comment like "She would get far on those proceeds" etc. I know then they are competent, they know what they are signing, and its ramifications. They may be bed-ridden, slow to speak, may only work up a grin instead of a laugh, but they have to show that they know what they are signing. I have had clients who just could not do that and I had to refuse to go forward with the POA (If they do not know what they are signing the POA is NOT valid, incompetency at the time of signing the POA invalidates the POA).

Aside to my fellow lawyers, In Pennsylvania all POA are now Durable POAs and survive incompetency. I still use the term "Durable Power of Attorney" in my POA do to the Common law rule that incompetency ended POAs. To non-attorneys, the States created Durable Power Of Attorneys many decades ago so that people could have POAs that survive their incompetency, these were, and are, called "Durable Power of Attorneys".

[smirkymonkey]

16. Illegal - the hospital needs to comply

with the informed consent laws, unless you have signed over rights to someone else.

Did this really happen, or is it hypothetical?

On Edit: after reading other posts, I would tend to agree w/ those who say that in the case of a person who is endangering self or others, those laws may not hold true, but don't know for sure.

[bratcatinok]

18. Why were

the sheriff's officers there in the first place? Is that something that is common in the ER's in your area? The reason I ask is I have been to the ER here in Oklahoma recently for a broken rib and there were no officers of any sort around.

[jmowreader]

20. They have them in the local ER

They're actually off-duty cops/deputies.

I'm not sure if this is NC state law, but our local agencies allow sworn officers who are working as rent-a-cops when off duty to wear their uniforms and drive their patrol cars. As they retain arrest powers at all times (as the two guys who smashed my mailbox found out), it makes sense.

Most of the cops in this town moonlight as rent-a-cops.

[rustydog]

21. In washington state, in order to be medically treated against

your will, you must be evaluated by a designated Mental Health Professional (MHP). you can be held against your will for up to 6 hours, giving time for a MHP to arrive.
The MHP can invoke an Involuntary treatment Act and you would have no choice but to receive the injection.

If not, The nurse, the hospital and the law enforcement officers are guilty of assault and battery. Possibly 4th amendment violations of false imprisonment, illegal seizure etc.
I'd contact an attorney, you have the right to refuse medical treatment unless judged to be mentally incompetent to do so.

AND, in WA State, a doctor or nurse alone can't do that,even if the condition is obvious, it requires a mental health evaluation by an MHP Professional who can hold you against your will for up to 72 hours (Involuntary Treatment Act).

[Sting]

23. no, i believe it's not legal...

and you better get a lawyer and sue for millions. :evilgrin:
Sting

[Ilsa]

24. Sounds to me like you may have been assaulted,

...unless you fell under one of those situations that they mentioned above. I think it is worth looking into. I can't stand medical people who assault patients who have placed their truat in them.

As a nurse, I don't want to give someone a drug against their will, and I'd like to tell them what they are getting and why and how it works, etc.. I'd like to see the paperwork from the judge or know that the doctor is also risking his license on having the appropriate documentation or supporting evidence that the patient is a threat. I don't want to lose my license over something like that.

[supernova]

26. Ladyhawk, if this is something that happened to you

you should consult a lawyer in person, one who specializes in healthcare issues. And ring that MD up and ask him/her what was in that syringe. Better still, get a copy of your medical records.

We laypeople can only be of so much help. Good luck.