Karma Question: what if it's broken?

[AlienGirl]

If you found out that Pol Pot was now reincarnated and living a comfortable and moderately successful life, with lots of friends, parents who love him, and a nice apartment, and that he had voted for Bush in 2000, would you cease believing in karma? How would you deal with it?

(This topic inspired by the other thread.)

(Disclaimer: I believe in reincarnation, but not in karma. Also, I don't know Pol Pot; I was just using him as an example, so if he's actually leading a crummy life, let me know.)

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

1. kick: I really want opinions

:kick:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

2. Then easy. Be an SOB and don't worry about it.

[AlienGirl]

3. A compassionate person wouldn't do that

Because treating others badly is wrong on its own, without the threat of karmic retribution.

Tucker

[Crazy Guggenheim]

4. I wouldn't. But it just goes to show ......

[AlienGirl]

5. To show what?

My question's more philosophical; it's not "how should I live?" but "how should I feel about it?"

Tucker

P.S. If I knew Pol Pot I'd give him a wedgie, though. Just because.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

6. It means if karma was broken then it would make any difference

how one behaved. That is, if one has a conscience.

[AlienGirl]

7. No, but wouldn't it feel unfair?

Knowing that no matter how badly someone mistreated you, nothing bad would happen to them because of it? And no matter how good you were, you could never expect any reward for it?

How does one get over the selfish egoistic wish that good acts would be rewarded?

Tucker

[Crazy Guggenheim]

8. Yes very. But as the question was stated it would not make any

difference what someone did.

[AlienGirl]

9. My greater question is how to get over the hope of reward

Also to find out if people would be able to believe in karma in the face of evidence to the contrary (I'm not).

On edit: I don't think it makes any difference what someone does--not in terms of their reward or punishment. The reason to behave ethically is because it is right, not because it is rewarded.

Tucker

[Crazy Guggenheim]

10. Not sure. I guess just to accept it.

[WCGreen]

11. Ah Alien Girl...

Fairness is an arbitrary state of mind that is in the eyes of the beholder....

Any behavior can be justified....

No matter how heinous, harmful or decietful....

All one has to do is convince oneself that you are indeed doing the right thing....

As for the yin and yang of a karmic judgment, that may be part of a plan to explain the actions of the oppressor to the oppressed....

Honk if you are waiting for the afterlife to find justice....

It does keep the rabble in order now, doesn't it....

[AlienGirl]

12. I already know all that--how they justify their actions, etc.

I just want to know how to feel okay, knowing that there is no punishment or reward other than guilt or satisfaction.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

13. Do the best you can while you are on earth...

And if there is an afterlife, you will be rewarded...

I always felt that if I do what I feel is the right thing, and do it all the time, I would make life forthose who populate my surroundings a little easier to handle...

If you can reach out and touch just one person, make a difference in one persons life, then isn't that a life worth living...

[AlienGirl]

14. I believe there is reincarnation

But I think it's rather random--I think Pol Pot may be living a decent, pleasant life right now; while one of his victims may be in abject poverty and misery again. In other words, I don't believe there's justice in this life or the next...nor reward.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

15. I agree....

Only in a more esoteric way...

I believe that the Energy that give us the spark of life leaves us and returns for more life and on and on and on.......

[AlienGirl]

16. But no reward, as far as I know

I'd need to see evidence to believe that karma was functioning, and all the evidence I've got is to the contrary: there seems to be neither punishment nor reward.

The energy transfers, and it brings memories and personality and characteristic expressions and movement-patterns with it, in some cases.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

18. It's not easy to accept the randomness of life....

And how people like George Bush get to the pinnacle while others, more deserving are left behind...

[AlienGirl]

19. And that is the exact problem.

It's random.

Tucker

[Kenneth ken]

17. I don't know enough

about reincarnation, karma or Pol Pot.

Maybe in his Pol Pot life, he had a really crappy youthe but was decent then, so would be being rewarded for that in tthis incarnation.
But because he ended his Pol Pot life as a vile human; karma had plans to take away <all the comforts joys he would e experiencing in this incarnation>, at a later date.

For myself, I am only in control of my self. The things I do may or may not influence others, but I can't force that influence. In other words, even if I were a cruel and powerful tyrant, who could cause much physical suffering, I wouldn't be able to control how that affected another person's soul.

I don't know if I will be reincarnated, or if upon reincarnation, karma from this life will influence the next life. I don't know if there is a heaven or hell.

I do know that in this life, if I mistreat people, I remember that, and think less of myself for it. And that if I treat people well, I more often than not, get a smile or a word of gratitude or some other thing that pleases me, and I remember that, and think better of myself for it.

I have made a conscious decision to not worry or think overmuch about what happens after this life. It's enough for me to try to get through this one on good terms with myself.

[AlienGirl]

20. Well, here's what I'm pretty well convinced of:

There is reincarnation, in that people sometimes seem to have memories of lifetimes of people who died many years ago. I think these memories are evidence that something, call it a "soul" for simplicity, transfers from lifetime to lifetime.

The actions of the previous lifetime have no bearing on the state of the current lifetime, except psychologically. That is, bad people don't get reincarnated into bad lives; but people who have experienced traumatic events in one life may have some post-traumatic stress in the next.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

21. Karma is a state of being.....

To lead a life based on the reward and punishment of Karma is little different than the reward and punishment of the western world' view of heaven and hell....

The best you can do is to lead life that is true to yourself....

[AlienGirl]

22. I am merely looking for Hope

Precious rare commodity, though.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

23. Hope as in there will be a better tomorrow....

Then I believe there is hope...

But I also believe you must act to reinforce that hope or it will evaportate....

[AlienGirl]

24. Here is what I want out of life:

I want to do meaningful work for a living wage.

I want to be able to buy a condo, or maybe even a house someday.

I want to go to Europe with Xen and my buddies.

I want to be able to afford to get my teeth fixed, and Xen's teeth fixed, and maybe someday pay off our past medical/dental bills.

If I really dream big, I want to pay off my student loans someday.

All of these are so incredibly out of reach that it's silly even to dream about them.

Tucker

[WCGreen]

27. Don;t eve stop dreaming....

Cause a lot of times, that's all there is to keep you going....

[Kenneth ken]

28. you could take a short cut

go to Europe, get a job doing meanigful work; then get your teeth fixed in a country with good socialized health care. Buy a condo or house there.

Call your student loans a good deed that someone else did for you, and forget about paying them off (makes it easier to afford the condo.)

:)

[AlienGirl]

29. Getting a job in Europe is not easy!

Besides, my desire to go there requires it to be a group vacation with a bunch of my buddies and Xen.

Student loans turn into paycheck garnishments and bank account seizures if not paid...

Tucker

[Kenneth ken]

25. I read a book

20-odd years ago called Illusions. By Richard Bach - the guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull.

His thoughts in Illusions were basically that nothing in this life is more real than in dreams. It had a nice example in terms of film. In films, horrible things can happen to people, but after the scene is finished and the camera stops; the people are still whole and healthy. Nothing bad "actually" happened to them. On the same theme, he pointed out that people will see films they've already seen in order to revisit the emotions and feelings the film evoked. So in the same way people can choose to live lives of "pain and suffering" time and time again because the soul that they actually are - as opposed to the physical body they move around in - doesn't actually suffer.

He explains it better than me. :)

I'm a bit ambivalent about that book though. It can too easily be pointed to as a lesson in why it doesn't matter if one is selfish and mistreats others. In fact, he does say that everyone is selfish and that it's okay to be. Because everything here is illusion anyway.

:shrug:

[IChing]

26. Unfortunality Karma does not give instantious feedback

Time and travel are two equations added to the Karen Hughes listening skill for the planet.

When you get to that point

then call me,

Instant Karma is there
for those that are conscious

well, i don't wanna be a
soldier mama, i don't wanna
die
well, i don't wanna be a
sailor mama, i don't wanna
fly
well, i don't wanna be a
failure mama, i don't wanna
cry
well, i don't wanna be a
soldier mama, i don't wanna
die
oh no oh no oh no oh no
well, i don't wanna be a
rich man mama, i don't wanna
cry
well, i don't wanna be a
poor man mama, i don't wanna
fly
well, i don't wanna be a
lawyer mama, i don't wanna
lie
well, i don't wanna be a
soldier mama, i don't wanna
die
oh no oh no oh no oh no oh no
oh no
well, i don't wanna be a
beggar mama, i don't wanna
die
well, i don't wanna be a
thief now mama, i don't wanna
fly
well, i don't wanna be a
churchman mama, i don't wanna
cry
well, i don't wanna be a
soldier mama, i don't wanna
die
oh no oh no oh no oh no

sorry someone give me what lennon said about
Karma

[IChing]

32. Well this is what Lennon said to me listening to him tonight.

Damn I got the lyrics

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you right on the head
You better get yourself together
Pretty soon you're gonna be dead
What in the world you thinking of
Laughing in the face of love
What on earth you tryin' to do
It's up to you, yeah you

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna look you right in the face
Better get yourself together darlin'
Join the human race
How in the world you gonna see
Laughin' at fools like me
Who in the hell d'you think you are
A super star
Well, right you are

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Ev'ryone come on

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you off your feet
Better recognize your brothers
Ev'ryone you meet
Why in the world are we here
Surely not to live in pain and fear
Why on earth are you there
When you're ev'rywhere
Come and get your share

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Come on and on and on on on
Yeah yeah, alright, uh huh, ah

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
On and on and on on and on

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
----------------------------------

We are made of
of the same things that
stars are made of
in the same
cosmic proportions.

Although certain elements
are more dominate
than others.

Your H20(liquid part blood) is hydrogen
and oxygen, that composes most of your being,,
then the carbon
same as the sun
some stars have different energies.

But even the heavier elements within your being.
are the traces that make
up your sun.


OK, I need a Brazilian suns joke.

[yewberry]

30. Karma answer: are you the one to fix it or judge?

I really don't mean to be dismissive or judgemental here...but in terms of karmic justice (believe in it or not,) who are we as individuals to judge or decide another's destiny based on only OUR understanding of them?

The reality is that we simply can't know the life or motivations of others, as much as we'd like to think we can or do.

Bottom line: I can't know that an evil person (in a former life) is living a comfortable and moderately successful life, with lots of friends, parents who love him or her, and a nice apartment, or that he or she voted for Bush in 2000. I can't. If some God came down from above and informed me that this particular individual had been Pol Pot in a past life, how could *I* reasonably expect to punish the individual for past-life wrongs? I really can't imagine that it would be my place to do so.

[AlienGirl]

31. Perhaps it isn't our place to judge

But I still reserve the right to complain and gripe.

If I knew Pol Pot, I wouldn't expect to punish him (but I would probably give him a wedgie). I could know he was living an okay life if he told me so; suppose you met someone who recalled being Pol Pot? Some people have apparent past-life memories. And of course I'd want to know who he voted for...

Tucker

[billyskank]

33. What if karmic reactions don't have to take effect immediately?

How about if they could lie dormant for a long time before fructifying?

(Dormant karma is called aparabda karma, whilst karma that is fructified - that a person is currently enjoying or suffering the reactions to - is called parabda karma).

[AlienGirl]

34. So I'm in trouble now for what I did/failed to do in the 13th century?

Even if I had a bunch of lifetimes since then?

Tucker

[billyskank]

35. Possibly

Or maybe not. How can I say? :shrug:

And why would it have to be the 13th century? If one accepted reincarnation and karma then one would also have to accept the existence of the self as a spiritual entity different from the body, and why would such a thing have to be bound by time or space? Why could your previous life not have been a billion years ago, or in a completely different universe? Just sayin'

[AlienGirl]

36. I was just thinking of a time I know I screwed up

If it were a lifetime a billion years ago or in a different universe, and I no longer recall it, what would be the point?

Tucker

[billyskank]

37. Why does your not being able to remember it make it pointless?

If you commit a crime and after that suffer some kind of trauma which makes you forget everything you did, and then you get arrested and convicted for your previous crime, is your lack of remembrance a reasonable plea for clemency?

One thing is certain. If reincarnation happens, we never remember anything we did in previous lives.

[AlienGirl]

38. I disagree

I have seen enough evidence of apparent past-life recall to believe memories do transfer.

Tucker

[billyskank]

39. I'll take your word for it

I should say then that people usually don't remember what they did in previous lives.

[regnaD kciN]

40. I'd find it fitting...

...that one of the most brutal left-wing dictators of all time had come back as a Bush supporter.

(I'd also find it impossible, since Pol Pot died long after 1982, which is the latest he'd have to have died for his reincarnated self to be of voting age by 2000. ;-) )

[AlienGirl]

42. Like I said, I don't know him

Insert any random Bad Guy into the equation...

Tucker

[BlueIris]

41. I also believe in reincarnation, but not so much in karma...

at least not as I am told it is vastly misunderstood by Westerners and in popular culture here in America. So, to me, the idea that the karmic "system" is "broken" isn't really the angle I can approach this question from, because I have heard that the "you do something good in one life cycle you get reincarnated into a good body/something bad, into a bad body" equation isn't exactly how the whole karma deal works.

About reincarnation, though--my understanding is sort of like this: if you get horribly, terribly hurt in a past life, (which could include inflicting hurt on others, sometimes that leaves people in pain) the trauma from that life will carry over into your next cycle. So, if you believe that your experiences in your present life will inform your next one, maybe you should try to avoid trauma or exposing yourself to things that make you miserable. This is not to say that I think people can or should try to avoid adversity. It's more like a hope that people will love themselves and others as much as possible.

[chknltl]

43. Messages From Michael

I call myself an atheist. I also believe in re-incarnation and Karma.
I have found the information contained within the books Messages From Michael and More Messages From Michael to be significant in confirming these beliefs. Here is a link to the official Michael homepage. If you are into this sort of stuff then spend some time looking around here.
www.messagesfrommichael.com/index.html
Look around for the "excerpt" link from Calem press. This is the story of first contact with the Michael spirit(s). It is a very fascinating read if nothing else.