is there an electrician in the house?

[Ravenseye]

Ok. I'm not a electrician but I'm fairly handy with basic around the house repairs. At least I have been. This time I'm stumped though.

We had an outlet which was in pretty poor shape. Painted over who knows how many times, broken from the wall, etc. So I went to Home Depot and got my parts. A new outlet and outlet cover. I went home and turned off the breaker for that outlet, tested it to confirm it was off. Unscrewed the cover and gently pulled out the outlet. The outlet was an old 2 pronged 15 amp outlet. It had three wires runnign into it from pretty frayed knob and tube...One to the brass on the right, two to the silver on the left. I unscrewed them one by one from the old outlet, and replaced them in the same locations on the new outlet. Put the outlet back in the wall, covered it up, reswitched the breaker box....voila...the outlet worked. my tester showed it working. I used the vacuum cleaner in the outlet to clean up the mess I made.

But now the fridge isn't working. The breaker for this outlet, which by the way is in a completely separate room from the refridgerator, shares this outlet, one other outlet, and the fridge. When I flipped the breaker back on, the fridge didn't come back on. I turned all the breakers for the whole house off, and then brought them back on. EVerything still works except for the fridge.

I turned the breaker back off, pulled out the outlet, and then unscrewed the wires. I taped them up to fix some of the fraying of the wires, and then used the holes on the back of the outlet this time, screwed them tight, plugged it back in, flipped the breaker. The outlet still works fine, the fridge on the other hand is sill off.

I've done some searching online but haven't found anything to make me figure out what happened here. Is there an electrician in the house? Anyone reasonably familiar with electrical work to give me a clue as to what's going on?

[TomInTib]

1. Do you have aluminum wiring?

If so the wiring kind of "liquifies" when power is switched on and off resulting in poor contact at connection.
In any case I would pull the fridge receptacle (outlet) and tighten connections. If everything looks good you might have toasted the receptacle when you flipped the breaker. Not uncommon.
If your wiring IS aluminum you should periodically check all connections and make sure you use aluminum-compatible switches and receptacles.
Good luck

[Ravenseye]

3. It's old knob and tube

I went back and found that there used to be a fourth wire attached to the right side bottom outlet. I wasnt' sure if I had accidentally severed that taking the outlet off, since the outlet was in such bad condition (i mean..really really bad.) I reconnected it and tested and the circuit popped and broke instantly. I removed that wire and tried again. pop. I totally screwed something up.

electrician will be coming tommorow. Thanks to all those 'hey it's really easy to change an outlet things...

Ack.

[ornotna]

2. Does both the top and bottom half of the new outlet work? n/t

[Ravenseye]

6. They Did

But now i've screwed the pooch and I think the breaker is done.

[WhollyHeretic]

4. Is the outlet for the fridge GFCI? (does it have any buttons on it?)

[Ravenseye]

7. Well I'm not sure

The outlet I'm dealing with as I said is in another room. I tried to pull the fridge out of where it sits, but it's pretty wedged in there. I gave up on trying to pull it out for now. I might give it another try. based on the rest of the electrical in the house though I'd be very surprised if it was GFCI. The other outlets in the bathrooms and the kitchen aren't, so it most likely isn't, yet that might solve the problem, so i'm going to try and pull the fridge out again.

[Gregorian]

5. Another guess.

But first, it would be nice to have a picture.

I am guessing that this fourth wire that supposedly goes to the fridge, is not a hot, but rather a return wire. And by connecting it up the way you did, it blew the breaker. Without being there and seeing the physical layout, in order to make some kind of attempt to make sense out of things, I would connect that fourth wire to the side of the outlet that you didn't connect it to in your first attempt. I know it's like blindly trying to get things to work, but there's only two ways it can be connected.

I feel like an idiot, trying to do this on the other end of a computer in another part of the world.

Hey, if it helps at all, I just bought a house that had a half finished second house on the property. The second house had all of the wiring in, but no outlets and no switches. Talk about a puzzle. Three-way, four-way switches. Two stories, with lights and things all over the place. I finally got everything working. But at the very end after the sheetrock was finished, suddenly a whole set of lights wouldn't work. I had to be smart and bypass things to eventually get it working.

I can't do more at this time. There could be two wires coming from the fridge, and you only see one, or one is broken.

Get the extension cords out and keep the fridge going. Argh!

[Ravenseye]

9. ok imagine this

inside the wall is a nightmare in and of itself, but there are two groupings of wires coming to the outlet. Each one has two wires within it.

Group A had two wires that were attached to the silver left side screws on the old outlet. Group B had one wire attached to the top right side brass screw. The other wire looks like it HAD been attached but severed somehow. THe wire was wrapped around the screw, but it looked...almost cut, but not sure if it was cut, to the line.

I pulled that out and reattached it and it blew the breaker. It worked without that cut line attached, at least the outlets worked but the fridge which is apparently upstream did not.

I'm going to pull the fridge out now and try and get an extension cord on it.

[Gregorian]

12. Hopefully we can save you the cost of tomorrow.

This isn't much help, I'm sure, but about the only thing to do is to try and figure out where these wires go, or come from. And which wires are hot and which are not. I am guessing the fridge is actually downstream, if the outlet works but the fridge doesn't. There could also be another thing going on. And that is that the outlet you bought isn't exactly like the one that was in there before. I mean, there are tabs that connect the upper and lower recepticals. I believe it's not an issue, since they are usually on the outlet when you buy it. But it's something I'd check. Because if that tab is broken off, it isolates the upper receptical from the lower one. That could be why the outlet has power, but the fridge doesn't work. Actually, you could put the original outlet back in, if in doubt, and see if the fridge works.
I always marvel with my dad at the mysteries that occur. I, for one, take things like this very badly. I lose my cool. I get all scared that the worst thing possible is going to happen.
By the way, I bought outlets on ebay that actually didn't work. That was really fun.
If you can, find out what's hot and what's not. If the wire that is hanging isn't hot, then I'd wire it to the side of the outlet that's not hot, and see what happens. Chances are there's only one hot wire in the whole box, and the remaining three are cold wires.

Some help I am. Oh well. Worst case, you pay a guy to do a bunch of work. You might even hold off, since the fridge is up and running. Maybe we can walk through this. I've been through worse. Haha. :)

[Ravenseye]

17. New Development

I'm beginig to think that I blew the breaker itself. The last time I flipped it there was a little orange flash and a pop from the breaker and it stayed off. Bad sign.

The fridge is downstream. The power seems to come to this outlet, which is in the dining room (one of three outlets in the dining room, this is the only one on this circuit), then it goes to the kitchen sink circuit (which is GFCI), and then the fridge. Now, at first I didn't know the kitchen sink circuit was on the loop. I think that when I first hooked it up, I did it right, but somehow the GFCI broke on the kitchen sink receptecle. I thought that was on a different circuit though, so I kept futzing looking for another issue.

The outlet iteslf is different from the one that was in the wall. I challenge you to find one that was like the one in the wall. Very old crap.

I just don't know what to do at this point. I'd rather not futz with it any more and just pay an electrician rather than burn the house down. Pisses me off. Tried to do something to save money, which everyone said was a piece of cake, and it's going to cost me more money.

[Gregorian]

18. No. This is too fun. Except for the burning house part.

You won't burn the house down. That's what the breakers are for.

I'm betting it's a bad ground. The GFI is doing it's job, it sounds like. Although, if the breakers is blowing, that's a short. I can only guess that a ground is connected where it shouldn't be. But then, you said the outlet in the original post was two pronged. So there is no ground there. I'm guessing wires going to wrong places. At this point it's a bit hard to know more without actually being there to inspect and measure. Argh! Too bad.

I'd say you have had a worthy day. And you didn't even go ape like I would have. Congratulations. Just be sure to post back when things are fixed, and tell us what happened. I hope it's simmple.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. First plug the fridge into another outlet using an extension cord

Grab an outlet that you know works - if the fridge doesn't go on, then you know you have a problem with the fridge.

(or you can plug a light or something into the fridge outlet, and see if the light goes on, then the fridge is fucked).

That's what I would do first, just to rule out that the fridge didn't somehow get fucked, before I screwed around with a lot more wiring.

That's the logical first step.

IF the fridge indeed still works, THEN start fucking around with the wiring, trying to find the problem.

[Ravenseye]

10. You're right, but it isn't the fridge

I worried that was the case, but i just managed to get the fridge out, and I plugged it in to another outlet, so at least the food won't spoil.

The people who we bought the house from....I hate them. They did everything on the super cheap, and otherwise weird things. The fridge wouldn't pull out. Then I realized that they had nailed into the wall a stopper to keep the fridge from being pulled out. Not even screwed in so it could be removed but nailed in.

So I hack off the wood, and find that....they are screws. They had sealed the grooves so that they wouldn't look like screws. For a little 2 inch by 2 inch block into a wall to prevent the fridge from being slid out.

So I hack that off, clip off the screws and pull out the fridge. The entire wall behind the fridge is made of...wait for it...duct tape.

That's right folks. good old fashioned duct tape. The electrical outlet for the fridge is duct taped onto the duct tape.

Ay Caramba.

It's just a joke at this point. I was angry but it's just reached absurd levels. I'm sure the electician will come tommorow and it's just a breaker that needs replaced, but...man...I hate the people who lived here before us. This is the umpteenth thing they've done on the cheap that we've found.

My personal favorite though is that to save money on carpeting they actually nailed the carpet into the floor with nails, and left a patch underneath the bed empty...ie no carpet, apparently to save money for just that swath.

Talk about cheap.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. Holy shit!

That reminds of some of the old, very poor houses of rural America, where people made do with what they had...except that in your case, it wasn't just poor people, but CHEAP LAZY ASS people.

[Ravenseye]

15. Cheap and Lazy. Yes

We knew the place needed work when we got it, for instance the furnace had a pretty serious crack and it needed to be replaced.

Yet there are so many things that home inspectors don't see, and even you don't see till you live in a place for awhile. You just look at something and cock your head and go "Was that always like that?" These people though had to have been the cheapest laziest people I've ever seen. They put a really good shine onto the house to sell it, but once you peel off that layer you see the crap that it covered.

And it's totally not rural, it's in a decent neighborhood. They were just cheap bastards who lived here for fifty years.

[Digit]

19. When hearing of your troubles, I swore you were in my area....

That kind of stuff reeks of my area, but surprise, you are in PA!

I hate to say it, but this administration has cultivated a culture of greedy people who think it is clever to get over on others.
How much did it cost these people to only carpet AROUND the bed for crying out loud. Oh, and the duct taped wall is a beaut, too.

How long ago did you buy this property? I hope you are taking pictures, because I would be suing somebody about now or at least threatening to do so.

IMO: If not too long ago, I would go after the seller, the home inspector, and the real estate companies involved.
Hopefully, you can get some money thrown your way to defray some of your expenses without going to court. Most of these people have errors and omissions insurance as well and would rather pay out than have a claim...or have it aired by your consumer advocate on your local TV station.

Call the real estate commission in your area as well.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney...LOL.

[radwriter0555]

16. Do you still have your buyer's home warranty? If you do, and YOU SHOULD,

all this will be covered.

If you don't have one, RENEW IT.

I have rewired and replumbed entire HOUSES on the buyer's home warranty that comes with the house when you buy it.

You just have to USE it and keep renewing it.

A hot tip for EVERY HOME OWNER.

[sendero]

13. Are you sure..

... that there weren't two wires also on the "brass" side? Because this sounds like a typical cascade circuit where the outlet is used as a "terminal block" for the refrigerator circuit.

Is there any way that another wire on the right got broken loose and is up in there somewhere?

[Ravenseye]

14. There are

It's in the jumble of explanations. There was a second wire on the brass side, but it was severed. The outlet worked with it not attached, but the fridge didn't. I thought that I might have accidentally severed the wire getting the receptecle out of the wall (it's a serious nightmare) so I reatached it and that's when the circuit breaker really blew.

[Jamastiene]

20. That old knob and tube crap is your biggest problem.

A good investment would be to rewire the place somewhere down the road. I do know that the National Electrical Code says when replacing those old 2 wire receptacles to use a GFCI. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Also, having the fridge on a circuit with other receptacles sounds like someone wired your place haphazardly. The fridge is supposed to be on a circuit by itself with nothing else on it. If that wiring is in that bad of shape, you probably should replace the wiring completely to avoid a house fire somewhere down the road. I'm serious. It sounds like a fire waiting to happen. New wiring isn't that expensive. Use the old wiring to pull the new ones through. After that, hook up new receptacles.

Btw, you did make sure the receptacle you replaced the old one with was 15 amps, didn't you? It needs to stay 15 amps or it will trip the breaker.