Equine advice sought from DU horsey types...

[tenshi816]

CottonBear, are you reading this?

I'd like to pick the brains of any of you DU lounge lizards who have experience with horses, because I could use some advice.

I'm contemplating going into a horse-share situation (which I've heard people refer to as "leasing" in the US - it's the same thing in the UK, but referred to as "sharing"). The animal in question is a 14.2 hands dales pony, which despite the "pony" name would be considered (I think) a small horse in the States (I'm slightly under 5'3" tall so he's exactly the right size for me).

Flyn is a lovely little horse, 7 years old, very affectionate towards humans because his mother rejected him at birth and he was completely hand-raised. The yard he's in is only a couple of miles from my house, and I get on well with his owner. The price is right and for all intents and purposes he would be like my own horse. We have beautiful places on the moors to ride on, like this:



Sounds great, right? It almost is except for a couple of things. First of all, when I took Flyn out for a "test-drive" the other day, despite being told he was fine on the roads, the first time a car came by he did a complete 180 degrees as if he planned to bolt back home. I pulled him up fairly sharply and he didn't do it again, but every other time a car came by he did a little sideways cat-jump. Once we got off the road onto the moor, he was fine for a while, energetic walk and nice brisk trot that he seemed happy to do for as long as I wanted it.

The other problem is, after being out about 45 minutes, Flyn began incessantly tossing his head. This worries me a lot. One of the stable girls said he does it because another woman who used to lease him rubbed his neck constantly as they rode and that he tosses his head to indicate he wants his neck rubbed. Whatever the reason, it didn't make for a pleasant ride after he started doing it.

Because we were out riding for nearly 2 hours, I'm wondering if the problem is that Flyn's back hurt. If so, obviously there might be an underlying problem that needs looking into.

My question to those of you who have experience with this is, would I be out of line asking Flyn's owner to allow me to have a vet come to check him out prior to entering into a sharing arrangement? I don't mind paying for the vet myself. I really, really like this horse and (money aside) I don't want to ride him if it's going to hurt him when I do.

I also don't want to offend his owner, but at the end of the day it's the welfare of the horse I'm more concerned about, even if I don't end up taking him on myself. If I don't someone else will, and if Flyn has a physical problem it will continue to manifest itself until it's looked at.

Bottom line: am I wrong in insisting Flyn be looked at by a vet before I agree to a share situation with him?

[LisaL]

1. I am not a horsey type. But it seems completely reasonable,

to have a vet look at an animal you are going to buy. I can't see anything wrong with it.

[supernova]

2. I don't know why you would be out of line

to ask a vet to look at him. This is an investment you are going to make. It seems reasonable to want to know whether this is a horse that can realistically accomodate several owners (in relation to whether there's a health problem).

Also, the head tossing, if he's got a couple of personality quirks that favor a couple of people, or one in particular, maybe he's not the best horse, from a temperament standpoint, to farm out for "sharing." I'm just thinking of his welfare as well as yours.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. There is also a poster named "SkipNewarkDE"

who has several horses. I imagine he might be quite helful with this issue. If I can find a post from him, I will drop this thread in his inbox.

[tenshi816]

4. Thank you! n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Done and you are welcome

[achtung_circus]

6. I'll try.

I'm the livestock (and that includes horses) specialist for a large Humane SOciety and have owned and ridden forever.

14.2hh is a pony is a pony. No horse is exactly 14.2hh and it will vary plus or minus from day to day.

If he's only 7 you may wish to enquire into how much training he has. The reaction to cars may be simply a matter of lack of exposure or negative exposure to vehicles. This takes time, but with horses almost every mental problem (if that's what it is) can be fixed. I had a mare that initially was afraid of water, any water. It took 2 years but at the end of that time she would plough into a raging mountain river without hesitation.

If his mother rejected him at birth and he was hand raised he is imprinted on people and thinks of people as his species. There is a fine line here with imprinting. Ideally, the foal is introduced to people early and imprints to the extent that he regards people as part of his herd. If he crosses that line and believes people are his species there can be behavioural "issues", most of which can be worked around, but you need to know.

You didn't mention whether he acts differently coming home than going out. If he acts fractious coming home but behaves going out he may be what is called in North America "barn sour". He regards the coming home as the end of the ride and that friskiness can be a challenge and possibly dangerous.

Head tossing is bad. It cannot be tolerated. I knew several people who didn't take it seriously. One is dead, the others had injuries. The impact of a serious head toss with the head of rider leaning too far forward can be fatal.

This too, can be fixed. A tie-down prevents the tossing.

The horse in question was sent to me for a while. Her problem was that no one had ever made it clear to her that there were limits to her behaviour.

She bit me, grabbed my spare tire and I reflexively kicked her in the ribs. She was astounded, no one had previously told her what her limits were. She was a different horse after that.

I'm not suggesting you kick him, but it is a simple demonstration of how channelled a horse's mind usually is.

It is ENTIRELY appropriate to have a vet examine the pony before entering into a commercial arrangement. It is the due diligence thing.

[Runcible Spoon]

20. and if you ride english, a standing martingale.

but work with him in the ring to get him used to any new piece of tack before taking him out on the trail. He will get used to traffic. as for back pain by all means get him checked out. you can also firmly press your fingers along the top muscles of his back and see if he flinches or tosses his head. also see if you are perhaps using an ill-fitting bit/bridle with him; this can lead to head tossing; also have the vet check for impacted teeth or jaggedy "wolf teeth". these are all easy things to find out and then you can easily acclimate him to road traffic slowly.

[Tsiyu]

7. If it 'twas me, I'd always get the horse vetted

There are too many things that can be wrong with a horse.

A little time and training will remove the "spook."


The head-toss could be a sore mouth, a sore foot or a sore back.

I'd at least get it checked for worms, contagious disease (A negative Coggins is required where I live to sell or move a horse - don't know wha they test for in your neck of the woods:)), feet and leg problems and you want a vet to listen to the lungs and heart and gut.

If he checks out with the vet, he sounds like a good prospect. :hi:

[radwriter0555]

8. Horse types will correct you on calling him a small horse. There is a

difference between ponies and horses, and there are actually miniature horses that are smaller than ponies that are not considered ponies.

I find ponies are a bit fussier and shorter in temper. There are always exceptions to the rule, perhaps your little gem is an exception.

If the seller has a problem with having the pony checked out by a vet, then don't buy the pony. You should also be able to check in with her vet, ask his opinion, then have a different, nuetral vet run an additional check on the little guy.

From his type, he shouldn't have back pain unless he's got health problems. It sounds more like he is... a pony.

You should also test drive him a couple more times, and just talk to him as you're getting to know him. Tell him about the cars, etc.

Good luck!!!!! I grew up with Tennessee Walkers, ponies, appaloosas, perchrons and draft horses, all shapes, sizes and types. Loved it so very, very much. Someday hope to have more again.

[tenshi816]

9. The difference between horses and ponies -

yes, I understand what you're saying and it's why I hesitated to refer to Flyn as a pony. In the UK, it's related to size. Anything under 15 hands high is considered a pony, anything over that - a horse. Temperament doesn't enter into it.

Since I'm a small person myself, I don't have a problem with this, although I wouldn't ride anything under 14HH because then even I might start feeling under-horsed!

I like this little guy so much, because he's a sweetheart. I hope I'm not turning into the equivalent of a woman who thinks that "if only I can change the (insert whatever here), he will be perfect".

[Arugula Latte]

10. I rode for years; here is my take.

I'll say this: you can't be too careful.

I had a "spooky" horse who would suddenly lurch from this and that provocation. I am lucky he didn't jump in front of a car. I've been run away with and bucked off. I look back on my horse years and marvel that I did not get seriously hurt or maimed or killed. (I did get a cracked elbow when my horse spooked so badly that he fell on his side. Luckily I fell clear.)

Even the most docile, calm horses are dangerous; they don't mean to cause harm but they are so large and can cause so much damage if their fright/flight instinct kicks in.

Please be careful. Err on the side of caution. I think the pony/horse's unpredictability on the roads would be reason enough to perhaps find another leasing situation.

Good luck!

[wovenpaint]

11. I'm in a horsey type family

and am familiar with leasing agreements-usually they are for a specific time frame-like show season, lessons, etc. This sounds more like dual ownership.

Either way, if you're investing money into this, you should certainly bring in a vet to allay any concerns that you may have.
This is a relatively young horse and may need a little TLC to get used to this change and to you.

But, IMHO, I don't think the owner should take any offense to a vet check, and in our cases, we encourage it-it protects both parties.
Good luck with Flyn!:hi:

[achtung_circus]

12. One more thing.

Get it in writing.

GET IT IN WRITING!!!!!

If this is some arrangement where you get the use of the horse in exchange for chores or i]f this is an outright purchase or anything in between, get it in writing.

If you cannot find a sample agreement anywhere let us know and we can come up with parameters.

The agreement needs to include:

who is responsible for vet care
who is responsible for farrier care
what is the EXACT financial agreement.

I often, that is several times a year, find myself attending cases where there was no agreement and the lack of clarity on care issues has caused the (typically) horse to suffer.

It doesn't matter if the two parties to the agreement are the best friends in the world,
get it in writing.


ON EDIT, SAMPLE AGREEMENTS HERE: <http://iceryder.net/lease.html>

[Pharlo]

13. I am not familiar with equine 'timeshares'.

But, I have owned horses.

Re: the vet - definitely. Unless you know enough about horses to make a good decision on your own, have a professional check the animal out for you. (Note, a professional does not necessarily mean a veterinarian, just someone VERY familiar with horses.) Whenever I purchased a horse, I always had them checked out by a horserancher who lived in the neighborhood. Although the local vets were knowledgeable about horses, this man was an 'equine artist'. He could knowledgeably answer questions about horses the vets wouldn't even attempt to address.

It sounds as if this animal may have some behavioral problems. If I were buying the horse and would be the primary person to deal with the animal, these things would not be an issue (assuming the horse is physically sound). If, however, you will not have outright ownership, you need to consider who else will be handling and riding (and possibly countering any training you may attempt). If you will be the only one handling and riding the animal, it becomes less of an issue because you won't need consensus on how the animal is to be trained/treated. (For example, will someone attemp to use a hackamore, a Spanish bit, a running martingale on the animal - these are things I would not tolerate - I did not allow anyone to use a twitch either which caused more than one problem with the ferrier). Time and patience, time and patience, time and patience.....and its worth every moment. And, ENJOY!!!

But, definitely, have the animal checked by a professional before you invest.

[riderinthestorm]

14. A vet check is certainly not out of line

But make sure the vet is able to assess the saddle fit. It's pretty rare to have a vet that can do that properly. You may need a trainer or equine chiropractor for a real assessment.

Many ponies have no withers and the bars of the saddle can dig in painfully. Also their backs are so broad people make the mistake of buying a small saddle (since the pony is small), when they really need the wide tree typically found on a larger saddle for a good fit.

The head tossing coming on later in your ride ring my alarm bells that it is a pain problem - the pony's tolerance level reached the critical point and the pony is telling you loud and clear that it's in trouble. Tying his head down won't solve it - he'll just find other, even more dangerous means of letting you know there's a problem.

The shying needs to be evaluated over the course of a couple of rides: does the pony do this every time? Was the pony just testing you and your ability? Many ponies and horses will test a new rider, especially when you are going away from the barn, in order to ensure you know your business and can keep them moving forward properly. The smart ponies are especially clever about finding ways to evade work and a simple spook is an effective means of losing a rider and getting back to the stall. Since the pony didn't try a really big spook after the initial one, my first guess would be he is testing you. But you should know that by your second or third trial ride - patience and a steady leg making him move forward should solve that.

Good luck. Make sure you give him a couple trials before you sign any paperwork.

I've shareboarded a few horses, leased out a few of mine as well. I own a boarding barn with 40 horses and own 8 myself and would be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

[purr]

15. I had my share of horses but that was over 10 years ago so from what

I remember here it is:

Being 'fine' on the road and being skittish can mean one of many things. My appy was fine with SOME cars.. SOME cars she would throw a fit and other cars she didnt really care. They really startled her when they came a little too close or fast for comfort.

In regards to the head thing, it could be a wrong bit, to you holding the reins wrong/too tight, etc. I always rubbed my horses necks when I rode them and they never did that. Also ear problems could cause them to throw their heads as well. I dont think this is a 'pain' indication that you cant ride him w/o hurting him.

A lot of people not really KNOWING what they're looking at go into these leases blindly. I was one of them. My first horse was a 'leased' that eventually turned into me owning her. I was fortunate that her owner was very versed in horses and I'm still in contact with him. My horse had numerous health problems from her thyroid to feet issues. So, I say NO it is NOT rude to get a vet out to examine the horse before you go into this. When I got my 2nd horse I had a vet examine him before I bought him.

A horse is not an inexpensive pet. Not only is the care for them expensive, the vet bills are even more so.

I'm sure Flyn is fine but double check with a vet.

[SkipNewarkDE]

16. Horse Share Advice

I don't see an issue with having a vet take a look at the horse, but it all depends upon your sharing arrangement, too, I guess. If you aren't locked into a certain amount of time with the horse, ie. if you do it just month to month, then vetting the animal may prove to be an expensive endeavor... It may just make sense to enter into the share for a trial period, and see if any of these issues are just due to quirks of the horse and its relating to a new rider.

The road-safe aspect of the horse really comes down to your comfort level. I probably don't need to tell you that everytime you get on a new horse, there is this entire interactive process that can take days, weeks or months, as you learn the horse's buttons, and he learns yours. In the case of what a horse views as a "scary" situation, a lot of his reaction will depend upon how secure he feels with YOU. If you have a really hot or nervous horse, he will spook more frequently of course. BUT as you build a relationship with the animal, things that may have bothered him initially will not bother him in the future, as he becomes more trusting of you riding him. I have jumped on horses that were supposedly bomb proof, and had them completely forget I was on their back when something scary happened. Why? Well, the horse did not know me, didn't have any kind of context or frame of reference as to WHY it should think that I will keep him safe. Remember a horse is a herd animal... they want nothing more than to rely on the alpha horse of the herd to TELL them how to act in an unfamiliar situation. The rider essentially assumes this role as they work together. So in some cases a horse that is bombproof with someone else has a lot to do with how much trust that horse has developed with that rider. I would think about how confident you are that you can get over the rough bits initially until the horse is confident with you. Sure there ARE true bombproof horses, but they are generally older, or plugs. I think back to the first time I took my horse out for a hack. He nearly had a heart attack when he came upon a discarded paper cup. Now he sees something like that and he wants to drop his head down and tear it open (he's a bit of a garbage picker).

The head tossing thing can be a couple of things. It could be as simple as boredom. It could be an issue with him not being used to your riding style... could be either too little contact, or too MUCH contact. My horse used to throw his head all over the place because my contact was inconsistent. It was the CHANGES in contact that he and other horses react to... imagine if the bit was rattling around, and then just hanging there... It sends confusing signals to the horse. The other thing that could cause the head tosssing could be a dental isssue. Ask the owner when last the animal had his teeth floated. Lameness in the front will cause the head to be thrown up everytime the sore foot hits the ground, but you would feel if he was off. Sometimes the head tossing can just be an evasion, or a "testing" of the rider. My horse used to throw his head up with nose straight up whenever I asked for a canter. Turned out to be he was anticipating ramming into the bit - he had been a race horse, and my own paranoia about him taking off with me at 40 miles an hour resulted in me having a deathgrip on the reins rather than GIVING a bit when asking for the transition. That has been a training and experience thing on my part... My guess, though, in this situation would definitely be either a dental issue, or the horse is not used to your hand. Watch the owner ride him and see how they are interacting with the bit.

So far as the back soreness... you can assess some of this yourself. Palpate down the spine, and see if there are any painful areas to the horse. He'll let you know, be prepared for the pinned ears, or the sudden jump away from you.

There are some more esoteric causes of the head tossing thing, but in general, it is usually a bit or dental thing, or hand thing.

[riderinthestorm]

17. I'd love for this to be as easy as teeth or the bit

We probably don't have enough information to assess this properly but the OP states that the problem started 45 minutes into the ride and continued until she got off an hour and 15 minutes later.

If it were teeth or bitting problems, she would have encountered the problem right off I believe: the pony would have tossed his head immediately, or she would have had problems bridling.

I mean, it's worth checking out of course.

It may be a rider problem but again, I think this poster would have experienced a problem right away with the pony complaining (head tossing) about a tight or inconsistently applied rein. She doesn't state if the head tossing started as soon as she got off the road and unto the trails either. Tendon issues are exacerbated by soft footing....

Sounds like this woman is in GB so she's a few thousand miles away - I hate trying to diagnose a problem from this distance. She's lucky though, they still have knowledgeable horse people every other block or so over there.

I would move to Ireland in a minute. Now there's horse country!

[tenshi816]

18. This has all been very helpful advice,

and my thanks to all of you for responding. It's one of the reasons I love DU.

In response to something you mentioned, the head tossing didn't start as soon as we got off the road. In fact, he was great for about a half hour on the moor path, very energetic but not misbehaving at all. Then, after we'd been out a total of about 45 minutes, the head tossing started. It wasn't a side to side toss, but more like throwing his head up and down quickly, nonstop for the rest of the ride.

The girls I was riding with (neither of whom I had met before we went riding together) both spend a lot of time around Flyn, and they've both ridden him as well. They indicated that he tosses his head like that with everyone who rides him, not just me, which makes me think there's some underlying cause that goes beyond just testing out a new rider.

The reason I was wondering if he was in pain is that for the first part of the ride he was so good (aside from being jumpy in traffic). I've been thinking that maybe he has something wrong that only comes out after he's been ridden for a while that doesn't bother him when he first goes out.

As far as applying the reins inconsistently (and I'm the first to admit that while I'm an enthusiastic rider, I'm not the most proficient and I know I have bad habits), I don't really think that's the problem. I say this because this little guy is one of the most responsive horses I've ever ridden.

Seriously, aside from the traffic problems and the head tossing, he's a lovely ride. I just can't bear the thought of hurting any animal, nor do I wish to put myself in danger.

[SkipNewarkDE]

19. RE: Teeth and Contact

In many cases, I agree with you, that these problems manifest immediately, usually. HOWEVER again citing my own experience, I have a thoroughbred that used to chuck his head about quite a bit, and this never started until we were IN the show ring, ie. AFTER I had been on him for an hour. The problem most certainly was a reaction to my nervous hands, and a general snippy attitude from a long day. He thankfully has settled down these days and is cool as a cucumber during shows.

Same with the dental work issue... if the teeth have an edge on 'em they may rub the gum or tongue initially mildly, but then after a bit of time, lay it open and raw enough to warrant a head tossing fit.