So, whats a 'pagan'?

[GirlinContempt]

I mean, to you?

[TimeChaser]

1. Me

:hi:

[Guy Fawkes]

2. TimeChaser

[LostinVA]

3. Someone who follows an Earth/Nature-based religion

In a nutshell. There are many, many different traditions (ie "denominations") of Neo-Paganism. Most follow some form of the Rede, but lots also don't!

[GirlinContempt]

5. Ah. So, neo-paganism

Very different from Paganism IMO

[LostinVA]

7. No, Neo-Pagans are modern Pagans.

Pagans are Celts, etc. who lived in antiquity, etc. Thus, Pagans who live now (properly) call ourselves Neo-Pagans in the general sense, and then whatever tradition. Say, instead of saying, "I'm Christian, and go to a Methodist Church," someone would say, "I'm a Neo-Pagan, and belong to an ADF Grove/solitary Wicca/Celtic Reconstructionist, etc."

[GirlinContempt]

18. Then why are so many

ancient religions referred to as Pagan?

[LostinVA]

20. Because they were Earth/Natured based.!

That's what Western European was, Pagan, until the Romans found Christianity and shoved it down their throats. Some of the Baltic states stayed almost purely Pagan until the 1400s.

[GirlinContempt]

21. Uh,

the Greeks had an earth-based religion?
I always thought it was based on the Gods.

[LostinVA]

29. They were/are Pagans. Some Neo-Pagans still follow

the Ancient Greek traditions. Not a lot, but some. The gods are Earth/Nature based. If you know Greek mythology, you should know that.

Again, not being snotty here, but why don't you get this? Earth/Natured-based religions are/were Pagans. Just like,: Christians are (basically) people who believe in the divinity of Jesus. Same thing.

[GirlinContempt]

Maybe we have a different

definition of 'earth based' then. Cause I don't see Greek gods and being earth-based in the way that most of the Wiccans I know (for instance) use the term.

[LostinVA]

38. Then you have idea what Pagan means and don't want to

Learn. Because academics, not just Neo-Pagans, say the Greeks were an Earth-based religion. Your definition doesn't negate anything, because your definition is wrong.

Are Fundies like Catholics? NO. Wiccas aren't like Druids, or Celtic Reconstructionists, or Feris, etc.

And, Wiccans do use the term the same, they just usually have a Lady,, maybe a Lord, not a pantheon.

[GirlinContempt]

42. WHO says that?

The Greeks worshipped gods that reflected different aspects of their lives. HOW is that earth based?

[TimeChaser]

51. The Greek Gods were often manifestations of natural phenomenon

Such as Demeter, Poseidon, Helios, Selene, etc.

[GirlinContempt]

Ok, I can accept that

but they also had many gods that were not, which is why I wouldn't define them as an earth worshiping people. They worshiped gods of nature as much as gods of emotion, gods of reason, etc. Many many cultures have had strong religious ties with nature, but that does not make them centered on nature.

[TimeChaser]

64. That they are "Earth-Based" doesn't mean they worshiped nature.

I think that in modern times, the phrase "Earth-Based" has been applied with a bias based on Christian thinking. Rather than having divinity exist outside of the natural world, the Greek Gods are a part of nature (or in the case of Demeter, are nature). Also remember that the Greek Gods can all (well, in some versions, Aphrodite and Eros are exceptions) trace their lineage back to the union of Gaea and Ouranos.

[GirlinContempt]

68. But the greek gods retreated outside of the natural world.

And were still worshipped. I think its more an issue of semantics right now :)

[Jackpine Radical]

69. The Greco-Roman pantheon maps directly onto other

Indo-European pantheons, including the oldest layer of Hindu deities and the Germanic pantheon (or at least the Aesir). Thor=Donner=Thunder; Tiw (later Tyr)=Zeus=Jupiter (Deus Pitar), a sky god, etc. Also remember that the "pagans" in early Christian times were the rustics, the people of the countryside (Heathen=people of the heath).

[ErisFiveFingers]

85. Because "Pagan" is a descriptive term.

It's not a specific religion, per se, any more than saying all of monotheism is one faith. The term refers to the beliefs of villagers, or countryfolk.

http://www.westegg.com/etymology/
---
Pagan
From the Latin paganu(m), for "someone who is not from the city, rather from the country." In late Latin, this turned into pagensis, "one who is from the country," and this utimately became the French pays and the Spanish País, both meaning "nation."
---

Of course, if you look around the world, that resulted in a *lot* of different kinds of faiths, beliefs, rituals, etc.

[catbert836]

4. Any follower of an Earth-based religion

Which can include Wicca, Reconstructionists, or Nature Worshippers. Of course, to the fundies, it means anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

[GirlinContempt]

6. Well,

as far as I've been able to figure out, a pagan is someone who practices a religion other than the Abraham-based ones.

When did it become earth based?

[LostinVA]

8. Paganism has always been Earth/Nature-based

Both in modern times and what we know about ancient Pagans.

[GirlinContempt]

10. Do you have some info about

ancient Pagans?

[LostinVA]

13. Just Google

I don't mean that snotty at all -- I just mean there's a whole lot of info out there, about a whole lot of different ancient Pagans, some true, some not (the Romans were major liars).

[GirlinContempt]

15. I've googled

and inbetween Wiccan pages with spinning unicorns and flashing rainbows, pages that agree with me and give no other side, and crazy rants that seem to have no basis in history, I'm feeling a little lost.

[LostinVA]

19. I just punched in "ancient celts" and "ancient pagans"

And a bunch of decent, non-fluffy bunny stuff came up.

[GirlinContempt]

22. As far as I've read

googling ancient celts, they didn't have a purely earth-based religion, though most sources admit very little is actually known.

There are records from Caesar of Druids punishing those who broke religious laws by disemboweling the victim, nailing their intestines to a tree, then winding them around said tree. But that doesn't shed a lot of light on them (I'm not being snarky)

[LostinVA]

32. They did have an Earth-based religion

I have an advanced degree in Ancient European history, and have also studied alot since then, they indeed did. Also, probably everything the Roams wrote about the Celts were lies, including all of the human sacrifice shit. They were very clean, invented chain mail, chariots, and calvary warfare, were great artisans, had a very organized society, women had equal rights and were also warriors, etc.

I honestly DO feel like you may be being snarky with me, or at elast wanting to tell em I'm wrong about something you yourself say you know nothing about, so I don't think I'll post any more on this subject. There are wonderful books out there, scholarly and mainstream, about Ancient Celts and Pagans. Not all Pagans were celts, either. And, I see you haven't;t went to religioustolerance.org.

Good luck with your search. Maybe some other DUer will help.

[GirlinContempt]

35. Well, YOU told me to google

and I'M giving you google results. I couldn't get that site to load, kept 404ing me. I WASN'T being snarky, but now I'm annoyed. I can't find anything to back up what you're saying, and I'm pointing it out to you, and you're basically accusing me of attacking you. While it seems perfectly acceptable behaviour toward Christians, when I bring up this stuff about something else, it's not ok?
I DO know my history, I DON'T know where a lot of THIS stuff comes from. I have two paths open to me, call it bullshit, or ask the questions and compare the answers to what I already know.
It was lies? Based on WHAT? Thats what I'm asking for.
If pointed questions make you that uncomfortable maybe it's time for a little soul searching.

[manic expression]

52. here's some:

http://vinland.org/heathen/pagancee/

http://www.wcer.org/members/europe/Lithuania/links.htm

Here's a pretty cool site:
http://www.wcer.org/

Hope that helps.

[GirlinContempt]

55. Cool, thanks

[catbert836]

9. Neo-Paganism is mainly Earth-based.

It wasn't until the 1900s that people thought of Paganism that way.
That definition is certainly flawed, because most pagans would certainly count Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, or Confucianists, or the other established religions in with themselves.

[GirlinContempt]

12. Buddhists, Taoists

etc aren't members of a Abraham-based religion. So I don't see what the flaw is.

[LostinVA]

16. I agree with Girl, here

Most Pagans I know (and Goddess knows I know too many!) would consider Hindus, etc. as having beliefs in common with most Neo-Pagans, but would not consider themselves Pagan. A Taoist friend of mine does not think he's Pagan, but enjoys going to some Pagan rites.

I think your best bet is to go here: religioustolerance.org.

They have great info.

[manic expression]

53. Well...

on that subject, I'm a Hindu, and I consider the Pagan traditions of Europe to be VERY closely related with Hinduism. They are brother and sister traditions.

However, Hinduism survived, even with Mughal invasions and missionaries.

by the way, would you consider a Hindu a "pagan" in the general sense?

Here's something that might be interesting:
http://www.iccsus.org/

[LostinVA]

77. In the general/broad sense? With a small "p"? DEfinitely!

[catbert836]

50. Here's the flaw:

That definition is very Abraham-centric. I'm a pagan, and I think my beliefs have some things in common with the followers of Eastern religion. The problem is that THEY don't consider themselves pagans.

[LostinVA]

11. And, this statement isn't correct:

"as far as I've been able to figure out, a pagan is someone who practices a religion other than the Abraham-based ones."

Buddhists, Hindus, etc. aren't Pagan. It's more than not being from a Judeo-Christian-Islamic background.

[GirlinContempt]

14. Well

All I've been able to find that says it's 'more' than that is pretty vauge and sheds almost no light on 'why' they aren't.

[LostinVA]

17. I sent you a link in another post.

[khashka]

23. Depends what you mean by "pagan"

Neopagan? Modern people trying to recover a pre-Christian past where the Goddess was all.

Paleopagan - indigenous religions


While my definitions seem to reject Christianity, I know many pagans who accept Christ.



So, to answer your question - for me it's a spiritual path to find some understanding.


Khash.

[GirlinContempt]

24. Which goddess?

[khashka]

26. THE Goddess!

THE God.

I could name them but the names aren' important - and there are a thousand names.....


Khash.

[GirlinContempt]

28. THE goddess?

Ok, so, you gotta believe that all this started SOMEWHERE. And whatever group came up with this ONE GODDESS probably gave her a name, right?

[LostinVA]

34. Are you purposely trying not to get it???

What do Pagans worship? NATURE, who is the Goddess, animus, energy, the Lady... whatever you want to call it. Her name? Gaia, the Lady, Brigid, Diana. The name doesn't matter -- for She's the same, no matter what the name.

God... I find your questions argumentative, not searching...

[GirlinContempt]

37. See,

and I find your answers totally vague and with little basis in anything that could be considered definable history. So lets call it even.

[LostinVA]

40. How the heck are they vague?

Why do YOU think you know more than hundreds of scholars? You don't. It si a FACT that the Greeks were Pagans, and the Celts, etc. That's a fact. Not vague at all. So, no, I'm not calling it even, and I am hiding this thread.

And, your baiting of our religion is especially nasty considering it's the eve of our biggest Holy Day.

[GirlinContempt]

48. I agree that the greeks were pagans

No debate there. I disagree that they were earth centric, but I agree they were pagans.

[manic expression]

56. They worshiped gods that were personal

that can be considered an aspect of "earth centric" deities.

Actually, this is an excellent example in terms of "pagan". The Ancient Greeks were very Greek-centric, and thought that everyone else was culturally inferior. However, they shared many religious beliefs with almost all of their neighbors (besides the Persians). Even though they thought themselves the center of the universe (quite literally), they still shared the same religious traditions (varied, of course) as the Gauls, Etruscans, Egyptians, Carthaginians and other cultures. "Pagan" may refer to groups that vary between each other, but have very similar beliefs.

[GirlinContempt]

61. I guess the main thing here is that

being earth centric implies to me that earth based beliefs are placed higher than others, and the greeks showed as much reverence for war as for nature.

[manic expression]

65. War was, in a way,

worshipped, but this is misleading. First of all, one person may regard war-like characteristics as divine, but another may be a devotee of the goddess of the hunt. Different people revere different things in different ways, but that does not mean it is completely separate.

Secondly, the Greeks put Zeus (storms) and Psodieon (ocean, water, earthquakes) above Ares (sorry about spelling). That is very inconsequential, as Ares simply deals with another aspect of life, and it is not at all wrong to put such an aspect in relation to others.

[manic expression]

73. Perhaps

some things that you see as inherent facts of the world are not to another person. The idea of an animus or energy that can take many forms is very alien and extremely confusing to the vast majority of people. It might be difficult for someone to understand what you are saying because they have no understanding of the most basic beliefs they are founded upon.

Just a suggestion. :hi:

By the way, I think your explanations are really good.

[LostinVA]

76. Hi Manic

I understand people may find the concept of animus confusing... I guess it just bothers me that someone comes on here, posts a threads asking what I believe, then basically just wants to tell me I'm wrong! Ha! Maybe it's my grandmother posting!

My very Christian Mom understands animus, and to her, she thinks it's the energy of a soul in every living thing. I told her, that's Pagan! Since she's a Catholic, it's almost the same thing.

Thanks for the compliment! Hope you enjoy your Samhaim.

[manic expression]

54. One goddess, many names

Ishtar, Durga, Venus, Athena, etc....

Manifestations of the same energy.

[kitkatrose]

57. As far as I know, She is all encompassing,

like God is to Christians. Some people have names for her (Ishtar, Demeter, Gaia, whatever) and some people just address her as the Lady or Goddess. I'm not sure what's confusing here. :shrug:

[GirlinContempt]

66. I guess what I find confusing

is that when I ask a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew or a Muslim clarification (I.E. So, where did this start? Oh there are different names from different cultures that don't seem on the surface to coincide, whys that?) they can at least generally explain it. Maybe not give me a 8,000 page history on the subject, but clarify it beyond "it just is"

[manic expression]

71. There is a difference

Paganism developed in a way that Judaism or Christianity or Islam did not. It is largely a revitalization movement, harking back to old traditions. From this, many groups were started from different traditions, and many more groups have been started since, while individuals start it themselves. It is decentralized and somewhat unorganized, which makes it much more difficult to describe or pinpoint a starting period.

Basically: Paganism is adherence, in various ways, to the old religious traditions of pre-monotheistic cultures.

[GirlinContempt]

72. Is it a mishmash of

all the old ones? Or different sects reflecting different old traditions?

[manic expression]

74. Good question

most of the old religions were stomped out by various forces. However, there are many remnants of their practices/beliefs, and that is what mostly forms the basis for paganism as we know it.

Paganism today is largely different sects reflecting different old traditions. I think that sums it up very well.

[kitkatrose]

75. But paganism isn't just one religion.

There isn't just one beginning. So you'd have to ask someone what type they are (Druid, Egyptian reconstructionist, Dianic, etc) and then they could tell you specifically. And then you have eclectics who have pieced together their own traditions, so their path started the day they conceived it and is still evolving.

[khashka]

84. I didn't make myself clear, I guess

Think of it this way... Goddess/God as the Totality of Everything. Which is impossible to see with our limited faculties.... we only see bits and pieces at a time. So there are different names, different approaches to allow us to see one facet or another of the jewel. We anthropomorphise that in order to understand it.
You can call it Nature, Ishtar, The Horned God, Inanna, The Green Man, The Morrigan, Brigid, Diana, Ceridwenn, etc. Each name represents a different aspect....

Khash.

[elshiva]

25. Natural religions, way of the old women, Goddess

A great, living religious traditions that have so much to teach the world about respecting women and the earth. :hi:

[GirlinContempt]

27. Which goddess?

Where did the woman-centric religion come from?

[elshiva]

31. There are a lot of different traditions from Europe, Asia, Africa,

North/South Americas that have Goddesses. I knew Diana-worshipers, who followed Diana Goddess of the Hunt. Diana is a Greek Goddess, she is popular among white women.

[GirlinContempt]

33. Lots of religions have female figures or gods

But, if you look at what little records there are of germanic druidism, it was worse to kill a guys dog than his wife, and they apparently had goddesses. I'm just curious where this idea that there was ever one goddess, or that there was some woman-centric religion came from. HONESTLY curious, cause I'm not familiar with it at all.

[LostinVA]

36. Then look it up -- there are many, many good books out there

Many great Neo-Pagan sites have lists, The Henge of Keltria, etc. Many Pagans, especially Celtic Reconstructionists, know their history. They aren't (as you so snarkily put it) about spinning unicorns.

You're asking us to post on DU something that fills many, many books.

I wish I could feel you were honestly searching, but instead I think you're baiting us and having fun trying to make fun of our beliefs. I get enough of that other places, so I don't want it on DU. Esp. in the Lounge.

[GirlinContempt]

39. If asking questions

is making fun of your beliefs, they must not be very solid.
Yeah, this stuff fills books, but I'd assume that someone could at least tell me "Oh, well, so far as I know it started with the Xs and they called her Z". Or even just say "Theres a lot of debate about its start, but this and this and this culture around the same time had this goddess and this was their law and this is how they treated women"

I have beliefs that I can't totally explain out on the internets, but I can at least answer a question about it without feeling like my walls are crumbling down.

[LostinVA]

43. My walls aren't crumbling at all

No one knows who was the first person to be a Pagan. Ummm.... that was in the very mists of time, not 2,000 years ago in the Middle East. No one can know who was the first group to do this/ How can you even expect that???

You know, I am very insulted by your nastiness. But, I expect that's what your purpose was here today, and I was stupid enough to fall for it, thinking you were actually interested in learning something. Gosh, silly me!

[GirlinContempt]

46. I don't expect anyone to know for sure

But it isn't unreasonable to expect that if you can say it's ancient you can give some concrete examples and a generic, qualified timeline.

I'm not being nasty, I'm just not going to accept 'THE goddess' as an answer.

[manic expression]

62. but it is THE goddess

it comes back to pantheistic philosophy. If you have two jars, the air inside is no different than the air outside, or the air in the other. If you put air in a different shaped jar, it is really the same in the end. As water is poured into water, so too is all reality, which IS all beings, all things. It matters not if the water is in an ocean, or a river, or a puddle, it is all truly connected and the same.

There are variations of this philosophy, and as you get into the relation between reality in its highest form and the physical world and everything in between (and then some), it becomes increasingly confusing. However, the basic premise remains the same.

This applies to many things. It can apply to ideas (you can kill a man but you can't kill an idea...the idea is transcendent...etc....) and other things. In this case, it applies to femininity. Any manifestation of divine feminism is a manifestation of the goddess. It is not the same entity persay, but the higher idea of what it truly is.

Perhaps the disconnect between you, someone who (I'm guessing) does not believe in pantheism/paganism, and people who do. That was a very basic explanation of what you're trying to understand, but I hope you got it.

edited for clarity and deletion of a useless paragraph.

[TimeChaser]

47. The problem is that "Pagan" is an umbrella term

applied to many unrelated religions. They do not have a common founding like the various denominations of Christianity. So we cannot tell you when "Paganism" began, however, if you would life information about specific religions, that's different.

[GirlinContempt]

49. I would *love* it

Honestly. I would. Please.

[TimeChaser]

58. Sure

I suppose, since most of the posters on this thread seem to be Wiccan, I'll start there. Wicca is a relgion that draws upon what we know about pre-Chirstian European relgions without seeking to reconstruct them (there are, however, several Neo-Pagan religions that do seek to reconstruct older Pagan religions, but that's another story). Gerald Gardner was the first to write openly about Wicca in 1949 which was, at the time, a mystery religion. Gardner was also responsible for bringing in many of the rituals used by ceremonial magicians, many of which are now completly integrated into the Wiccan religion.

[GirlinContempt]

60. Ok, so, which

old religions does wicca draw on? All sources say something different, maybe it differs from believer to believer?

[TimeChaser]

67. Originally, it was most likely localized folk religions

which, sadly, there is little remaining documentation of. But yes, since Gardner, Wicca has evolved into a very personal religion for most people. It's said that if you ask 10 different Wiccans what "Wicca" is and you will get 12 different answers.

[GirlinContempt]

70. See, now THAT

I can see.

[jayctravis]

30. All the Pagans I was acquainted with

couldn't be around a bonfire without stripping nekkid.

[ghostsofgiants]

41. The bad guys from the Dragnet movie with Dan Aykroyd

[GirlinContempt]

44. LOL

[Lethe]

45. ah shit! i was totally about to post that

hehehe

[JVS]

59. Excellent movie.

[JVS]

63. pagan:christianity as gentile:judaism

Pagan is that which does not fall under the rubric of christian.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

78. Okay, I'll answer without

looking at any of the other posts.

To me pagans don't believe in one god. They find god-ness in the natural world. I would think paganism (is that a word?) was the earliest form of religion.

I understand that some pagans practice spells, rituals, enchantments, etc. but I don't know anything specific about that.

I am under the impression that there is no one "pagan faith" and the beliefs are passed down through the generations. Today with the renewal of these beliefs, practitioners are having to create their own rituals, etc., because so much has been lost.

I also believe paganism is more feminine in nature thatn the other "main" religions.

[LostinVA]

79. OOOH! Grannie, very good!

The spells, rituals, enhancements things aren't that "weird," either. If you've ever been to either an RC or Anglican mass, then the rituals wouldn't freak you out (except they tend to be outside, so it has more atmosphere); spells and enchantments? Really more spells, and it's a way of redirecting animus (energy), not something from "Bewitched."

Go to the head of the class! Just don't eat any more Halloween candy!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

80. I don't dare eat any more candy!

I'll never sleep again, and won't poop for a week.

Okay, that was gross. Sorry.

I am Anglican so I groove on ritual. I also teach art and sneak a whole lot of Celtic history and art in.

[LeftyMom]

81. Well the literal meaning is "country dweller"

but I see the term as describing seasonal, agricultural or earth-based spirituality or religions and reconstrucions thereof.

[Orsino]

83. Yep...'paganoi' = bumpkin/barbarian

One who rejects mainstream religion/culture in favor of another?

[Jamastiene]

82. Generally, in my experience, pagas have been tolerant

loving, and dreamy (in a good way). They follow Earth based religions and have a deep respect for nature. I love them, personally. I feel a connection to them spiritually despite the fact that I don't really have an official religion of my own at this point. If that makes any sense, I tend to gravitate toward them. I'm destined to become one.

[swag]

86. Another person who expects me to pay for all the drinks.