Who would win in a fight Muhummad Ali or Bruce Lee

[DanCa]

Of course i am talking about both being in their primes. Man the hand speed would be incredible.

[Redstone]

1. I'd guess Ali, given that he's alive and Lee isn't.

It'd be pretty one-sided, actually.

Redstone

[Crazy Guggenheim]

2. I went for Bruce Lee since Martial Arts have more techniques. Kicks

for that matter.

[northzax]

12. and a roundhouse from a foot to the head

is a lot harder than George Foreman could ever hit.

[DanCa]

57. Ah but imagine a round house right to lee's temple from the champ

It'd be a hell of a fight though wouldn't it.

[northzax]

58. oh, well that would kill him

as I stated above, it all depends on the rules being used. in a confined space, Ali's ability to take a hit and use his size to corner Lee gives him the advantage. In a small space, his size cancels out Lee's mobility advantage. Now in the open? Lee would use his quickness (yes, he's even faster than Ali) to hit and run.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

61. Lee also studied Wing Chung which among things has the one

inch punch.

[ForrestGump]

63. The inch punch

is hidden in a lot of Chinese forms, including the intricate forms of northern Chinese styles that predate wing chun and of the southern styles that wing chun was inspired by (if only as a style to be countered). It's really more a general principle than a technique, and is usually not delivered from inches away but is a last-split-second flourish that delivers maximal power to the striking surface. The same principle is seen in many techniques, even those that seem quite disparate: the 'shaking' or 'vibrating' palm of southern white crane, for example, and in general 'iron palm' technique. Really a very common thing, though not always identifiable as an 'inch punch.'

The inch punch, as demonstrated by Bruce in Long Beach in 1964, is as much a demonstration technique as anything else, showing as it does the harnessing and delivery of energy that is characteristic of complete Asian martial arts styles. It's also a training method to develop that kind of capacit for application through a wide variety of techniques. In the real world, strict application of an inch punch -- exactly as demonstrated by Lee -- is not all that likely in most fights.

[AngryAmish]

3. Ali is too big

Had a jaw like iron. I think Ali ground and pounds him to submission.

[William Bloode]

19. How?

Ali had 0 wrestling skills in with which to ground and pound.

[William Bloode]

23. Ironic post.

Iron jaw means crap in a real fight, or in mixed martial arts terms. Lee would have undoubtedly used Judo techniques to get Ali to the ground the actually submit him for real, via Armbar, Kimura(key lock arm bar), or choke. Ali may have had a jaw of iron but that won't stop him from being choked out in a second, or having his arm or leg snapped from a joint lock.

[Wetzelbill]

49. exactly

it's tough to punch somebody out from a technical standpoint, but it isn't that tough to take someone down. It's a matter of opportunity and percentage. From that point an experienced martial artist with grappling experience would submit a boxer at will.

[DanCa]

4. Well heres another factor absorbing punishment

We know that Ali can take a punch, but can Bruce withstand Ali's punishment?

[Wetzelbill]

54. he probably wouldn't have to

other than maybe a glancing shot or two, Bruce would most likely not even really get hit. If he was smart and utilized his full array of skills, he'd be in on Ali right away, tying him up and taking him to the ground in some way. Then he'd pretty much do whatever he wanted depending on what kind of openings Ali gave him. I would think Ali would naturally give up his back and the get choked out.

But if they just went toe to toe, there is no way Bruce could handle the punishment. Ali is too big and strong. Physically no body can stand like that and just get beat on, not with a guy who hits like Ali. However, I seriously doubt Bruce would try to fight like that. Probably not in a million years.

[northzax]

5. in a ring or on the street?

freestyle or Marquis of Queensbury? street fight, ho holds barred goes to Lee. Ring and MoQ goes to Ali, he'd corner Lee and pummel him.

[Enraged_Ape]

6. Ali, and not a doubt in my mind

As much as I love Bruce Lee, and as a long-time martial artist myself, I have to give this one to The Greatest. The guy is legendary for taking MASSIVE amounts of punishment (the infamous "Rope-A-Dope" strategy) from human jackhammers such as George Foreman. There is just no way little Bruce Lee (yeah, I know he was quick and was a legend himself) could deliver the kind of hellacious beat-down it would take to floor Ali. Ali would let Bruce do his thing for a while and then crush him.

[eyepaddle]

7. That was my vote too

and for precisely those reasons.

[northzax]

11. but he'd just take Ali's legs out from under him

Ali was used to getting hit in the head and upper body, what would he do about sweep kicks at knee level?

[JVS]

16. Don't forget the 1 inch chi-blast punch! Those are fucking brutal!

:-)

[Enraged_Ape]

20. The 1-inch punch is a parlor trick, kind of like spoon-bending...

or that stunt where you and three buddies lift a guy out of a chair with nothing but your index fingers. Anyone with a little practice can do it.

This is going to strike a lot of people as heretical, but here goes: As terrific as Bruce Lee was, and as much as he popularized and helped evolve the martial arts, I'm afraid a lot of his legend is just that...a legend. He's the John Henry of the Hong Kong cinema crowd.

[JVS]

42. I used to think like you, then I was chi-punched and shat blood for 9 days

:)

[eyepaddle]

43. Who's John Henry? nt

[Enraged_Ape]

45. A legendary steel-drivin' man

Best reference:

[eyepaddle]

46. Ohh, THAT John Henry

:blush:

I thought you were talking about some actor or something.

[DanCa]

64. Funny I am learning to play that on the harmonica right now

When John Henry was a baby, he sat in the palm of his hand
Mama took one look at him and said he's going to be a steel driving ma. Lord you know he's going to be a steel driving man.

[Enraged_Ape]

21. He'd have to get close enough to do it effectively

Don't kid yourself. Ali had moves. Don't think because he fought in a sport that was all above the belt that he didn't have strength, power, and speed everywhere else.

[William Bloode]

24. Means nothing.

Joint locks and chokes used in Judo would have nullified this. No matter how good your stamina is a broke arm, or dislocated knee ruins your day, not to mention chokes.

[Enraged_Ape]

27. I don't disagree with you, but I just doubt little Bruce Lee...

could get in close enough to do it.

As I say in another post, much of the legend of Bruce Lee is just that...a legend.

[William Bloode]

31. Would have been no problem.

Ali had ZERO take down defense, no knowledge of any technique other than pure boxing. All lee had to do was defend long enough for a take down. Ali would have presented this opportunity himself simply coming forward in a classic boxing stance. One single leg, or grab and body toss would have ended it all.

Many moons ago Ali fought Antonio Inoki in Japan. Inoki was no boxer and just a pro wrestler. He(Inoki) had no boxing game whatever. So his plan was to simply lay on the mat and bicycle kick his way around the ring. Boring fight yes, but even something like that put Ali out of his boxing game plan and made it null. Lee would have known much more to do than Inoki.

[Enraged_Ape]

37. I still disagree with you 100%

But that's the beauty of Democratic Underground. :toast:

[Awsi Dooger]

8. Ali's biggest problem would be not to laugh

Big fast freakishly talented guy against a tiny little drop kicker. Yeah, that's a tough handicap.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. "Tiny little drop kicker"?

:rofl: How little you know about Bruce Lee.

[Enraged_Ape]

38. Bruce Lee was unquestionably a great martial artist...

but he was first and foremost an actor (as were his parents), a showman, and a MASTER of self-promotion.

This whole thread is kind of silly. It's like asking, "Who would win in a fight, Audie Murphy or John Wayne?"

[ForrestGump]

60. Wrong

He was an actor, showman, and master self-promoter, and much said of him is likely untrue. However, he was first and foremost a serious martial artist.

He was also a philosopher, and it's in the area of martial philospophy that he made perhaps his greatest indelible contributions. He separated what he did for the screen (flashy kicks) and what he practiced and taught in his jun fan and jeet kune do schools. He was a great martial artist who could have become far greater, regardless of movie career, had he lived.

The movies were a bonus.

[CanuckAmok]

9. Don King n/t

[ariesgem]

10. Bruce Lee

Although Ali would give him one hell of a fight.

[dannofoot]

13. I've practiced martial arts...

...for decades..

Ali wins, hands down.

[William Bloode]

32. You ain't studied the right kind then.

I have studied Greco Roman, Freestyle, and Catch style wrestling, boxing, and Ju Jitsu. Since 95% of all fights go to the ground ANY classic martial artist or boxer will almost always lose to someone with a superior ground game.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. Ever seen Ultimate Fighting?

Boxers always get their asses whupped by the little jiu jitsu fighters.

[JVS]

41. Unless the jiu jitsu fighter sucks and the guy fighting him is Tank Abbot

But Bruce Lee didn't suck.

IIRC Tank Abbot kicked a lot of ass until he ran into a fighter who knew how to avoid his might rain of blows. This is when he lost.

[Montauk6]

14. Two different styles; they cancel each other out

Lee wasn't a boxer per se, though he incorporated a lot of boxing technique in his Jeet Kune Do. Ali, as a boxer, is not by nature and rules a kicker, so he would be at a disadvantage style-wise.

Also, you're talking two guys in far separated weight divisions. It's like brother Joey in Raging Bull chiding Jake for lamenting not being able to fight Joe Louis, "you're a middleweight, he's a heavyweight... you're crazy to even think about somethin' like that."

Of course, this is foreshadowing, for later we find our hero retired from the ring at about a girth that just may have put him in the same weight category as Mr. Louis. But woe unto he who drinketh the demon rum and smoketh ye olde stogie (2 Timothy, 3:55).

I'm aware that I've digressed a bit, but it's all in sport, dontcha know.

[JVS]

15. Bruce Lee could kick Ali's legs out from under him.

Boxing wouldn't teach him to avoid that, whereas Jeet Kune Do surely has blocking or dodging techniques to deal with the blows of a boxer.

[DanCa]

17. Good point imagine this

Ali has to fight in close while Bruce is a medium range fighter. All Lee would have to do is give Ali a spinning kick to a balance area, knock ali over and finish off the champ with an axe kick as he tries to get up.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

18. Bruce Lee was Freakish

For the strength he possessed at only 160lbs. Not to mention his ridiculous speed and agility. I think he'd have any of those fighters down and out in less than a minute max.

[William Bloode]

22. Bruce Lee.

Simply because in a no holds bar fight size means dick! Technique and skill would rule the day. While Ali was an awsome boxer his other fight techniques were non-existent.

This fight would have not been a strike fest. Lee would have been smart enought to use Judo techniques to throw, and or take Ali down. Which would eliminate any advantage he had. From the ground Lee could control the action however he deemed fit.

Ali was a very single dimension fighter. He would have had nothing more than a punchers chance. Lee on the other hand was a mixed martial artist before his time. He studied all fighting arts using only what worked best and combining them.

In a boxing match Ali very quickly, but in a more dynamic MMA style fight where all techniques are allowed Bruce easy.

[Wetzelbill]

56. the problem for Ali is that as a boxer all he has are punches

if you throw a punch at somebody from a pure boxing stance, you get taken down. I'm a wrestler, I've boxed in smokers, I know some chokes and submissions and my little brother is a MMA fighter. Ali got tossed around by Gorilla Monsoon, who granted was a huge guy, but was purely a pro wrestler. Bruce Lee was lethal at many different techniques. Ali would throw a jab and either get launched in a throw seconds after or taken down on his ass. From there he'd be screwed. It would take a lucky shot for Ali to win, not so for Bruce Lee. Ali would be in Bruce's world and size doesn't matter so much in that world. Look at the first several UFCs. Royce Gracie, a non-striker, wiped the floor with guys who outweighed him by a bigger size difference than Ali and Lee. Somebody would throw a kick or punch on him and he'd be in on them fast as you can blink. If he didn't take them down then he just went to his back. From there he worked chokes and locks. A pure striker can't fight in that environment as strikes are about the easiest thing to counter in MMA fighting.

[DainBramaged]

25. Jet Li could kick both their asses

[Siminov]

26. Are you people crazy?

Bruce Lee would have whipped Ali in a heartbeat. Ali was fast, but Lee would have been on top of him in a heartbeat! There would have been no competition!!!!

[DS1]

28. Bruce Lee would have beaten Ali, and then had Jet Li for dessert

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

30. But Jet had a longer movie career so who's the winner now

Yeah, bring it on, Bruce Lee, Ali, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, oops, where'd he come from?

[DS1]

36. Jackie Chan?

Slapstick for the commoner :eyes:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. If you put him on wires, maybe.

Otherwise, I seriously doubt that.

Jackie Chan in his prime might have given Bruce Lee a run for his money, but probably not.

[flvegan]

29. Bruce Lee had all the tools.

Speed, power, intelligence, form and function.

He might have only weighed 135 pounds, but he was incredibly strong. His speed, unmatched.

I'd sooner take 5 fights with Tyson (in his prime) than one with either of these gents.

[Enraged_Ape]

39. I guess none of you guys subscribe to Black Belt magazine

If you did, you'd know that EVERYONE'S fighting technique is absolutely UNBEATABLE. Everyone is a sixth or seventh dan "undefeated" master. Everyone is possessed of fighting techniques handed down by ancient Asian demigods with speckles of dried herbal tea in their long white beards and mustaches. Everyone has developed their own fighting style which is absolutely devastating.

And Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Funakoshi, Uyeshiba--ALL of them could kick any of the others' a$$es up around their ears due to their superior skills and techniques.

Don't believe me? Pick up a martial arts mag at your local bookstore and read the pages of ads and letters to the editor. They sure convinced me!

[RedCloud]

40. The champ! With a rope a dope!

[Jim__]

44. My guess is Bruce Lee

He used his hands and feet. Ali, at least as a boxer, was limited to using his hands.

[MarsThe Cat]

47. couldn't bruce lee reach into ali's chest, pull his heart out...

and show it to him before it stopped beating...?

seems to me it would be difficult for muhummad to do something like that wearing boxing gloves...

i guess bruce wins.

[eyepaddle]

53. Dude, you're way off

Ali was so fast he could shut off the lights, get undressed, and be in bed before the room got dark.

How can you compete against THAT kind of speed? ;)

[manic expression]

48. I'll agree with Bruce Lee himself

as a great admirer of Ali, he said that he (Lee) would easily win in a no-holds-barred fight, while Ali would absolutely demolish him in a boxing match.

[salin]

50. Darth Vader?

[antigone382]

52. LOL

Eowyn would kick all their asses.

[Wetzelbill]

51. in a serious NHB fight, I would be surprised if Bruce didn't win

He'd probably do so 99 out of 100 times. Ali is a boxer, they can throw punches but it's not like being in a streetfight, where you can incorporate punching, kicking, grappling techniques, submissions. We're talking about a different breed of animal, and size wouldn't be much of a factor. Fights go to the ground and Ali would be lost when that happened. He'd have to catch Bruce with a punch and knock him senseless right off and if he didn't do that, he'd probably be done. Knocking somebody out with one punch like that isn't all that easy to do. Taking somebody down is easier than landing a fight ending blow. Now if Bruce just stood up and tried to outbox Ali, well, even with a speed advantage he'd be in serious trouble. I doubt he'd be that foolish.

[Wetzelbill]

55. I picked other... and my other is....

Randy Couture!!!!

[ForrestGump]

59. Tough call

I'm a Chinese martial artist, and no fan of Western boxing, so my immediate bias is toward the Little Dragon. But I did used to love watching Ali, back when I was a kid, and he's the only boxer I've ever bothered to watch...he was a showman. More to the point, he was an innovator and an incredibly fast man for one so large. He really was The Greatest.

When you boil it down, power in a strike can come from sheer strength or from speed. Bruce was very fast and he honed his body into pure muscle -- too much so, probably, if you're like me and believe that overtraining may have contributed to his death. Ali is 6'4", right? Regardless, he was taller and very muscular. Reach advantage to Ali's arms, but Bruce's legs (slower than hands, even if you're Bruce Lee, but potentially more powerful) could have neutralized that. Both men were very fast.

Bruce didn't just have expertise at medium range, because his original kung fu style was wing chun, a Southern Chinese system that specializes in infighting. It's likely that Ali would have been at a major disadvantage if Bruce were to get past the zone delineated by Ali's reach or if Bruce were to make contact with his arm or torso (wing chun works heavily on sensitivity training...chi sao 'sticky hands').

One of my kung fu teachers, the one I've thus far spent the most years with, was and is a friend of Ali. What I've heard from him and from another of my teachers is that Ali's style overlapped significantly with the principles common to most Chinese martial systems. He has an appreciation of kung fu, too, just as Bruce did with boxing and fencing.

So who'd win? Either one might prevail in any given match. Both were powerful hitters, because both were quick and strong, but Ali was that much brawnier and larger and that confers advantage, all else being equal. Ali was also a good mover, one of the things that he brought to heavyweight boxing, but Bruce likely had a more fully developed footwork repertoire, combining the bazillions of footwork patterns contained within various Chinese styles with elements from other sources. So Ali was hardly the lumbering behemoth to Bruce's lithe panther, but Bruce probably could have danced at least a few circles around him.

And don't let Bruce's relative physical slightness fool you: he had power in his techniques, power derived both from speed and (to a small degree, at least) sheer muscular power but derived predominantly from linkage. The linking of body parts, the connection through the body and to the ground that generates and delivers power, is all important. That's how the 'inch punch' works and, for that matter, how tai chi is so effective. It's not esoteric BS and handwaving...I'm a large-framed, tall person who has been literally thrown across rooms by tai chi dudes close to half my size. Ditto 'external' kung fu styles...it's all the same.

I don't know how Bruce would have fared if Ali landed a good, solid punch, though. He was not a street brawler (at least, once he left Hong Kong) but he was a big believer in full-contact sparring in his school and even the pads he used didn't diminish the power of committed blows. So he might have survived Ali's fists of fury.

On the other hand, kung fu styles specialize in techniques that are lethal or intended to destroy joints, muscle, eyes, noses, and every other part of the body. It's not just compensating excuses when a Chinese stylist explains a poor showing in a tournament (or refusal to participate in such) on their techniques being "too dangerous" for the ring. They are. Chinese styles are many (MANY many) and diverse, but to a great extent they fall in line with my characterization of kung fu basically being the Chinese art and science of dirty fighting. Tournament rules specifically prohibit most of kung fu's effective techniques. That's certainly the case in tournaments dominated by the martial sport of tae kwon do but even dedicated kung fu tournaments ban the heart and soul of many or most Chinese combat systems...grappling (chin na), for example, is usually verboten. Even those stupid 'Ultimate Fighting Challenge' wankfests, wherein so-called 'martial artists' show utter lack of humility as proof that the American Way trumps Shaolin, have a very skewed playing field (skewed specifically toward Brazilian Ju Jitsu, not surprisingly). A real no-rules match would see an experience Chinese fighter quite possibly ending the match at the outset with a deceptively simple nerve attack. Or with his or her opponent nursing a shattered knee or picking up the pieces of their gonadal units.

Western boxing rules would gut a martial artist's repertoire, that's for sure. Under boxing rules, Bruce probably would have been hammered by Ali. I wouldn't say it was a given, but I'd think it the most likely outcome eight out of ten times. In a rules-free environment, though, it'd be a closer match than most Westerners might expect based on relative sizes of the adversaries. Substitute one of the more advanced kung fu teachers today working in the US for Bruce, one who is very familiar with advanced nerve-attack and smilar techniques, and I'd probably be betting against Ali. That'd probably be true even under boxing rules, because even I know some nerve-jangling techniques that can be hidden within a simple parry or the like (handy for tournaments, actually) and a real master of it could numb your arm (at least) withotu even appearing to do anything. Again, this is not just me buying into the myth but me recounting my own experiences as the numbee.

Look at many Chinese styles and you'll see that Western boxing is basically an integral part of the system -- convergence on effective techniques -- which is not all that surprising if you consider that the Chinese have had 4000 years to work on this stuff. Nothing new under the sun. Boxers can be fearsome opponents -- again, I speak here from bitter experience -- even if you train in a Chinese system that includes essentially the same techniques and tactics: a kung fu dude in a system that has tens or even hundreds of hand and weapons forms or sets is diffusing his or her effort whereas a boxer focuses on just a relative few techniques and trains them to a very high level of performance and power.

Karate systems are the same: they're essentially derived from subsets of southern Chinese styles and do not contain anywhere near the same number or diversity of techniques, but they train those few techniques HARD. Big as I am, I may not be all that likely to get caught by the attack of a goju-ryu karateka because I am more nimble than the average bear, but when they hit me with a basic reverse punch or front kick I am hurting...again, bitter experience, many times over. Scary mofos, some of the harder-core karate types. I have a ton of different techniques at my disposal, and a wealth of strategy and tactics somewhere in my head, along with fast reaction time and some degree of physical and mental sensitivity...my arsenal is far more stocked than that of most karate stylists and certainly of boxers, TKD students, wrestlers (now, those can be some scary folks...even before martial arts I was always a hitter and no good at wrestling) but my side kick is less powerful than that of a TKD dude of similar experience, my reverse punch and front kick are less devastating than a hard-core karate dude of similar experience, and my body remains less supple and relaxed than that of a mid-level tai chi enthusiast. I'm big and fast, like Ali, but I've got more the diverse repertoire of Bruce...in short, either one would thrash me, unless I got really lucky on the day.

Who knows how good Bruce might have become had he not died at 32. I think he probably would have embraced again some of the more traditional kung fu styles, because many are really no more shackled by their traditions than was jeet kune do (ironically, in recent years a property fought over by several of his students). I bet he would have rediscovered tai chi. And Ali is just an icon...he is a great man, in my opinion, warts and all. I hope he sticks around for a while yet, too.

[Deja Q]

62. Posthumous fighting... nice idea, but it wouldn't sell.

Besides, like Lt. Drebbin says, never vote for the white guy...

[Taverner]

65. Ali

Bruce Lee is dead

[DanCa]

66. Just remember too Lee has to punch up - Ali has to punch down

You loose power when you punch down, at least thats what my old boxing taught me. You gain power when you punch up.

[ForrestGump]

67. Sounds right

Never heard it, but it makes sense in terms of the connectivity I mentioned above. Going up you channel your energy from the floor-feet-legs-hips-waist and into the arms. moving the coiled energy (silk-reeling energy, in Chinese terms) into a fast and powerful strike. Punching down you effectively put a kink in the chain of connectivity...the energy goes up and then does an acute turn at the shoulder...less power and less speed.

Reason for the uppercut's (or similar palm strike, etc) effectiveness, I guess, because if you've ever done something like that you'll feel your whole body get beneath the strike and it feels like you could literally take someone's head off. Striking down only feels somewhat comparable when you drop your whole body with the strike, but you can only really do that if you're on top of the situation or you're making yourself a nice target -- gravity offsets the loss in power then. Otherwise, downward strikes seem mostly (to the best of my recollection right now, from my won experience) the kind of thing you do to harass or to sting a vital point (at very advanced levels in martial systems that include nerve attacks and similar, there's a whole other story that comes into play here).

Generally, it may be part of the reason why kicks are typically less powerful on the way down than on the way up or across...the axe kick can be strong, but at greater risk of injury to yourself and, aagin, it's best as a finishing touch (high axe kicks are best for training and show only...few non-spinning techniques make you more vulnerable, especially to a grappler).

[DanCa]

68. Well that's how Foreman lost to Ali,

Watch the fight Foreman was throwing bombs down at Ali and punched himself out. That was what made the rope a dope such a brilliant tactic. Allthough I think one of Georges telephone jabs would have destroyed a lesser boxer but thats a different arguement. :D
Excellent post Forrest I really enjoyed readding your view points.

[MrSlayer]

69. Bruce Lee would kill Ali, no contest at all.

He'd take his legs out with a sweep and step on his throat. This would be over really, really fast.

[DanCa]

70. Ali used to drop his hands alot in his fights too.

I dont know how much of a factor it would give bruce but its a consideration.