Question to atheists about morality

[Nikia]

I don't mean this to be offensive. Some people say that atheists cannot be trusted or have no or questionable morality because they do not believe in God or a higher power. I know that is not true of at least some and probably most atheists. People who have been raised in or adopted a religion can give religious reasons for their morality:They fear or respect God, they expect to be punished or rewarded in this life or the next, spiritual reasons, and others. Even if no one else knows what you did, the higher power knows. Their relgion usually preaches some kind of morality as well. I am interested. Where do you get your moral values and why are you motivated to be moral? What motivates you not to do something wrong if no one would find out that you did it and the consequences would not hurt you or your friends personally? Some people are moral because they want to have a good reputation. If people assumed that you committed an offense that you believed was wrong but were tempted to do, what would motivate you to still refrain from doing it? If you would have a moral reputation no matter what you did, would you still be moral? There are also issues like the law or other consequences but what if you were smart or powerful enough to avoid these things. For militant athesists or others who believe that we would be better off if everyone stopped believing in God, do you think that this could be bad for some less enlightened minds (perhaps who don't care about most people if any) morality wise? There are some people who do base their morality on religion and might be more adpt to do some rather bad things if they believed that they would not face the wrath of God from it. As I said, I am interested in your views of morality apart from relgion.

[trotsky]

1. Maybe I can answer your question by turning it around.

Even the "knowledge" that a higher power knows what you did doesn't stop many religious people from doing bad things. So if religious belief can't assure morality, why do you need to target atheists for their morality?

But apart from that, I'd say (to paraphrase Einstein) that if your only reason for doing good is hope for reward, and your only reason for not doing bad is fear of punishment, humans are a "sorry lot indeed."

[rbnyc]

19. Good answer.

I do believe in a sort of higher power. It's very personal and not really worth getting into in this thread. But I don't believe that morality streams from any kind of higher power. Morality is a matter of choice. I think that people who don't believe that morality is handed down from some kind of god are more trustworthy than those who do, because they are taking it into their own hands. They take responsibility for their beliefs.

[JanMichael]

25. Bingo. To do good simply because you're told to is sad.

Not all Theists are that way but I've known a few personally.

I've also known a couple of Christians that simply refused to believe that Life was worth living if there's no God.

Seriously.

They could find NO reason to Live without a Godbelief. That was pathetic.

[demigoddess]

36. An atheist does good because it is for the good of other people

And because his mom said so, no need for a deity at all

[Fixated]

2. ...

Consequences always play a role, but right/wrong is not a difficult concept. Religious ideas of right/wrong came AFTER the ideals were established, not before. People weren't murdering and raping before Moses stood on a mountain. Good=enhancing human life. Bad=damaging it.

[donco6]

3. Morality based on religion is simply dogma

If there's no personal stake in making the moral decision, but simply a reliance on "the Bible/pastor/priest/Torah/Koran said so", then it's a pretty weak morality.

But I'm not an atheist, so I may be wrong.

6. That is what one atheist

basically said regarding dogma, so I don't think you're wrong. In some sense you're paraphrasing a thesis of Nietzsche's.

[fallow]

4. as a skeptic

not an aetheist, I can say that right and wrong stem from our social contract. Due unto others, as the bible states, is translated to our society to mean, if we all do it "we are screwed".

Just a small example but Im willing to beleive the social contract, as I define it, is probably where most people get their morality from. Even if you are not "caught" with your hand in the cookie jar, you recognize the consequences if everyone did it.

[sangh0]

5. Paragraphs!!!

Didn't your God teach you about the use of paragraphs as a sure way to get into Heaven? :-)

[leftofthedial]

7. I have found atheists to be much more highly moral people than

believers in deities.

Believers in deities are very likely to use their particular interpretation of their religious doctrine to rationalize their behavior, no matter how reprehensible.

[Malva Zebrina]

8. *I am not a militant

atheist. I do not wish to argue "faith" with anyone. I am a moral person and have been so all of my life--at least as to the parameters set by religions which is the subject of this thread.

I see absolutely no difference in the life lived by a religious person and the life lived by a non believer. If someone can point out to me a difference I would be happy to consider it. PLease show me a difference. Otherwise, we all must agree, in view of the evidence,or lack of evidence, that a non believer can live a happy moral life, a wonderful, productive life without having the sword of an imaginary deity held over his head and face some sort of "punishment" if he does not do as he is commanded.

Why am I moral without having to be commanded to be moral by an imaginary person who gives out these commands to follow--or else? Because I am simply connected to other human beings. I can sense their fears, their happiness and share that with them because we are all, after all, only human beings with all the same warts. I can love my fellow human beings without being commanded to do so and this certainly reinforces my belief that human beings are capable beings who are capable of independant thinking without being forced into a belief.

[trotsky]

10. *applause*

Very nicely put.

[ijk]

9. speaking for myself, as an atheist

If I had to answer in very brief terms, I would say my morality is based on the belief that my life and happiness are no more or less important than anyone else's.

This 'where does atheist morality come from' meme is a strange religious right argument that's cropped up in the US. Moral reasoning by atheists probably predates theistic morality and is the lifework of hundreds of great philosophers (and thousands of less-great ones, I suppose), Socrates being the first case I can think of. Even among fervently religious people, the great arguments for morality have been in essentially non-theistic grounds; if you read the New Testament, for instance, Jesus' calls to moral action clearly stem from something much more than "because God told you to." The subtext to "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" is decidedly not "or else God'll getcha!"

I'm skeptical about the claim that religion really constrains anyone from the things I think of as truly immoral acts. It may be that either those who would commit such acts leave their religion, or they twist its tenets to justify what they want to do; cases of both are certainly extremely common. I'm quite frightened by people who make an argument that amounts to "Well, I'd run around slaughtering people I dislike, except I'm scared of getting punished." It's too easy for them to change their minds. (I'm not suggesting that everyone who is religious, or draws their morality from religion, subscribes to this belief, by a longshot.)

[arcane1]

11. as an atheist....

I am acutely aware that this life, here, is all we have. That is enough for me to cherish and respect it. Being threatened with burning doesn't = morality to me.

besides, there is no shortage of absolutely dreadful things done to people due to religious belief, so I don't really see how religion can = morality either

[wryter2000]

12. My parents taught me to be good to other people

No brainer.

[Speck Tater]

Here's my take on it....

The atheist is moral because knowing that there is no heavenly reward after this life, if he wants to have any experience of anything even remotely heavenly it's up to him to do all he can to make this earth more like heaven. That means being moral because immoral behavior is not sustainable without destabilizing the culture.

I am moral because I want this earth, the only place I will ever exist, to be a pleasant place to be.

[BurtWorm]

13. One way to look at morality is as a product of natural selection.

Morality promotes the survival of the species; immorality and amorality do not. The reason we think of some behaviors as moral is that these behaviors have worked for the species, or the society within the species, since morality changes a little from society to society. As far as individual morality goes, many people approach it from a religious point of view, and, I believe, this is because religion was naturally selected as a fit transmitter of morality to individuals--again, it has worked, more or less.

But the bottom line question for every individual vis-a-vis morality is, will this behavior keep me alive and able to pass my genes along? So why do so many religious people view sex as immoral? Why is celibacy the height of morality for many (but by no means all) religious people? Well, note that even among religions where sex is viewed as essentially sinful, prolificacy is, paradoxically, considered highly virtuous. Catholic priests and nuns aren't supposed to have children, but Catholic couples are encouraged to have extremely large families. I firmly believe that natural selection drives everything with us humans, as much as randomness does.

[bloom]

14. Actually - thinking about this -

what comes to mind is that I think that religious people would like to think that religion keeps other people in line.

There is the one person I know who stood up in court and made a statement about the convicted child molester and how they had been baptized together (so how could he do such a thing)...


I think that when people rely on their own moral compass - it is possible that they have to take morality more seriously, not less.

My philosphy is that there have been many thoughtful people in the world and that many things Jesus is quoted as saying are things ultimately designed to improve ones life as well as the lives of those in the group.

Forgiveness and kindness can even seen in a selfish light - when basically they help ones self as much as anyone else.

[RIindependent]

15. Nikia, If you want the answer to your question go to this site:

http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/cohen.html
It is alittle long, but worth the read.

Morality existed long before man invented god.
I have had 'religious' friends tell me I was more religious than them. Maybe that is because I feel being a person with morals is a natural way of life.
Peace.

[JanMichael]

27. You too? I've had Born Again Christians call me "too" Ethical.

Basically saying that I was "too" Moral in my decision making. In front of a minister to boot. Sort of turned the evening upside down...

[stopbush]

16. I question any morality based even partially on fear.

Fear of returibution, fear of the wrath of some god, give me a break! Morality is self-awareness that gives us insight into what's acceptable and what's not.

Others above have answered more succinctly than I ever could...including those who imply that religion can often be as much a cover for immorality as an inspiration for morality.

[salinen]

18. for myself and my family

it's simple. as atheist we have only ourselves to hold responsibility. we cannot displace our guilt or crimes unto a ficticious deity for forgiveness. and we know by intuitiveness that what we would not want done to us , we do not do to others. this is not the case for born-agains. they must learn lessons to mimic. and this being the way of fundys, they never understand the relationship. therefore, we will not associate with born-again christians. this is not that non-believers can't harm us, but christians lead fantasy lives that require a certain amount of deviance.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. it is amazing to me that you can not answer the question without making

slams against people who believe in God (ficticious deity, fantasy). This is an example of your morality?

[Nikia]

17. Good answers so far

I supposethat ultimately, morality is personal whether or or not they believe in God or not. At the heart of it, it is for me with a religious/spiritual twist but I think that people feel more at peace with themselves if they are moral regardless of what they believe about God.
I am a bit uncomfortable with the social contract arguement. As society has gotten larger and we are largely anonymous to most other people we encounter, I wonder if people really care about others. It almost makes me feel that people with a lot of power really do not have any reason to be moral towards their underlings if they believe there is no higher power than them. What about people who have good reason to be angry at society? Were the boys at Columbine justified?
I originally began to think of morality apart from religion when I read the prologue to Plato's Republic, for a required freshman class, when the one character says that "Justice is what is the interests of the stronger party." Plato, as the character and his real life mentor Socrates says that he is going to answer the question why it is good to for goodness sake (or something to that effect). I was all excited, but let down by his explanation, which was the bulk of the book.

[bloom]

22. I think

"I wonder if people really care about others..."

"What about people who have good reason to be angry at society?"



That with anger, with the potential to screw people over, the deal is that one has to live with ones self. It is the idea of the ideal. What is true happiness, contentment and all that.

The Dalai Lama - "The Art of Happiness", Jesus in the Bible, and many self-help books say basically the same things. I even got a health tip - your "REAL AGE" can be 4 years younger if you do things for people.


People isolate/alienate themsleves from the world at the peril of their own physical and mental (and spiritual) health.

[arcane1]

24. people still care about "each other"

but fear/hate of "the others" has been around since the ole primate days, and is at the very least just as strong in the religious and the non-religious

problem with our bloated population numbers is that there are more and more of "the others" to deal with

[SheilaT]

20. It is my observation

that people who have to look outside themselves for a reason to behave, who only behave well if they're convinced that if caught doing otherwise, they'll then be punished, well those people seem to misbehave every time they think they won't get caught. They have no inner belief system that encourages them to be good without the outside punishment.

In other words, the idea that those who don't believe in God are necessarily immoral is utter hogwash. My whole life I've seen religion used as an excuse for everything from minor misbehavior to war and genocide, so I have a very low opinion of organized religion as a whole. Most self-professed atheists and agnostics I know behave more morally, and better towards their fellows than most supposedly religious people I know.

Just my view.

[RichardRay]

21. Practical morality for Buddhists -

First, as a practicing Buddhist (I know I'll get it right eventually) I don't think of Buddhism as a religion. More like a philosophic discipline. Certainly my practice doesn't require dieties, although I do believe in and request assistance from enlightened beings who have been working on the whole thing longer than I have.

As a Buddhist I believe I can prove analytically:

Life is suffering. (Happiness is possible, but requires some insight into the nature of suffering.) Rebirth is a bummr since it sends me around again on the old guitar.

There is a way out of suffering; it's not hopeless.

That through practice and discipline I can avoid suffering and be truly happy.

The precepts that define that practice and discipline are my morality. Practically, moral behavior is driven by the law of karma. You know, the old 'goes around, comes around' thing?

As a mahayanist I believe that it is most effective for me to maintain the altruistic intention to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings, but there are great practioners who follow other paths that don't emphasize this point.

See, a whole moral framework and not one reference to diety. Buddhists are taught, urged and required to inspect the teachings carefully and to refuse any part that doesn't make sense to the individual, so dieties really aren't required.

[chaska]

23. God comes from morality, not the other way around.

I think most of us unbelievers acquired our beliefs in reference to religion. Put another way, we have seen to many religious hypocrites, too many evils committed in the name of religion. In rejecting religion, we do so on a moral basis. Our position is superior. Atheists are the true moralists. Our's is the *superior* position.

God is an invention of man (simple fact) -> man is fallible = religion is fallible. God/religion does not represent the zenith of morality because it is an invention of man. The religious man is therefore no better than man without religion.

I saw an article just today that said that the divorce rate among the religious is higher than that for the non-religious. Draw your own conclusions.

If my logic is full of holes, or you disagree for any reason, feel free to rip this apart. I won't likely concern myself with refutation. It's a settled issue for me.

[Socialist Christian]

26. Well i dont know to many dishonest Christians <nt>

[Terwilliger]

34. that's good

but there are scads of them...and they're making the rest of you look bad

[BurtWorm]

39. In fact there's a famously dishonest one in the WH.

I don't know how anyone could miss that one. Maybe by claiming he's not really Christian.

[toddzilla]

49. you have to be kidding..

You need to either open your eyes, or meet more than 3 christians.


You can replace "christians" with virtually any theistic belief. i'm not slamming christians, just the thought that somehow being part of a religion makes you infallible and honest. People are people, some ignore obvious right/wrong issues for personal gratification.

[Skittles]

28. I don't need God, relgion, Jesus, the Bible

to know WHAT IS RIGHT. People KNOW THESE THINGS.

[smallprint]

29. It's called a CONSCIENCE

Use it or lose it.

[thom1102]

44. This is the vein I was thinking...

I think that it is disingenuous to say, "I will do the right thing because I don't want to burn in hell forever." You do the right thing, because it is the right thing. I do the what's right because I have to live with the consequences of my actions, not because I am concerned with the disposition of my eternal soul. I don't need Jesus to command me to treat each other the way that we would like others to treat you. That concept just makes sense, and I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to follow it.

To me it seems that Christians who are moral for the sake of their eternal soul, are doing it for the wrong reasons and are missing the point.

[Interrobang]

30. Personally, I'm Amoral...

In the definition I always learned at school (yes, in my school they talked about such things), morals are "a code of behaviour imposed by an outside socializing agency." Outside socializing agencies are things like religions, churches (not the same thing necessarily), schools, community organizations, social clubs, etc. Families also do a lot of socialization, but they're not considered "outside."

That doesn't mean I don't know what's what in the right from wrong area, though. I tend to be ethical instead of moral, where ethics are a set of self-determined behavioural codes. Personally, I think that if you're doing something (or not doing something) SIMPLY because Such-and-such told you so, then both your morals and your mind must be pretty weak.

Contrary to popular belief, having ethics doesn't necessarily mean that your behavioural code shares no features with everyone else's, or that you're free to do anything in any given situation (commonly referred to as "floating" or "situational" ethics). While there may be differences between your morals and my ethics, we probably have more in common than you think, and the few specific circumstances where I might violate my ethics (survival situations) are probably familiar to you as well.

But morals? No thanks, don't want any.

[ijk]

31. That's extremely peculiar.

There are a lot of differing definitions for the distinction between morals and ethics; the most common in the world of philosophy is (roughly) to define morals as the basic notions of good and evil ("Killing people is wrong" is a moral) while ethics refer to the more philosophical study of morals ("All humans are endowed with the right to the pursuit of happiness" is an ethical tenet.) Neither have any built-in definition of where they come from.

[short bus president]

32. Fear of retribution from a "higher power" has as much to do with morality

as ringing bells have to do with dog food.

[geniph]

33. One word: Empathy

I don't do harm to other beings not because I fear in some mythical omnipotent being or some fearful punishment in the afterlife, but because I would not like to have harm done to myself, and I am empathic enough to imagine it.

When others feel bad, it makes me feel bad, especially if it's my doing. It's as simple as that for me.

[rustydog]

35. Right is right and Wrong is wrong...

Whether there is a God or not.
God will be there or NOT be there whether I believe in Him or not.
It is not a requirement to believe in an invisible all-seeing God to be a GOOD person who has a strong moral character.

[scarlet_owl]

37. I am deeply religious, but morality for me is about

being a decent member of society. I am not afraid of God's wrath, because it is my personal belief that God is loving and always forgiving. That is just my point of view, and it may or may not be true. I hold myself to a high standard of morals because it is my personal code. It has nothing to do with God or religion. It is just my duty as a good person. Morals to me include serving others ceaslessly, being honest, being polite, etc.

[sujan]

38. yap yap yap

next

[0rganism]

40. Somewhere between Kant and Kohlberg...

Psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg posited that there were stages of moral development one passed through, with or without religion, in the course of one's life. It might be a useful paradigm for you to consider.

Take, for illustrative example, the sort of classic ethical dilemma that might get floated on a message board these days. Your mother/wife/child (pick one) is dying of a curable disease, the pharmacist down the street has just the kind of pills that would cure the disease, and they're too expensive for you to purchase. So, you can either steal the pills, or let your loved one die. What do you do, and why?

One possible answer is you don't steal the pills because you fear punishment. This is what Kohlberg calls "pre-conventional" morality, which makes its choices in consideration of retribution.

Another possibility is you do steal the pills because you want them and could potentially avoid punishment. This is the flip side of the first answer, which still views the matter in terms of personal cost in exchange for a desirable outcome.

Yet another is you don't steal the pills because society frowns on stealing. This is called "conventional" morality, and incorporates a sort of democratic principle that goes beyond ego, caring what others think of one's actions.

The next stage in "conventional" morality is one in which you don't steal the pills because stealing is illegal and you wish to uphold the law of the land for its own sake.

Another possibility is that you steal the pills anyway, knowing in your heart that the life of your loved one is more important than the limited laws of society which do not and cannot take all circumstances into account. Any punishment you might receive is irrelevant and acceptible in this "post-conventional" stage. This is the sort of ethical thinking one would hope a judge could undertake in a sentencing, the knowledge of when to mitigate society's laws in favor of a higher principle or general social contract.

There is another possibility: as with the previous answer, but you only steal the pills if you can be certain that the cost to the pharmacist will not pose a danger to his family's well being. Kohlberg called this "principled conscience."

> There are some people who do base their morality on religion and
> might be more adpt to do some rather bad things if they believed
> that they would not face the wrath of God from it.

Such people could be described as "pre-conventional", and, IMHO, their religious crutch actually inhibits progress to moral maturity. As long as one is comfortable thinking of one's misdeeds in terms of "how many Hail Marys will this cost me at next confession" or "will God send me to Hell for doing this", one is not moving beyond the ego boundary to consider the impact on others. I put no stock in such crutches, they are fickle and easily misused. What if your religion tells you to torture and burn those who disagree with you? In any close interaction, then, I could only hope you would apply some higher principle in place of religious taboo.

An example of such a principle is Kant's infamous Categorical Imperative: "I am never to act otherwise than so that I could also will that my maxim should become universal law." At first glance, this may seem like a restatement of the Golden Rule, but it goes further than imagining one's actions perpetrated upon oneself. This means that any law saying "murder is wrong" should be applicable universally. If it is wrong to murder, it is just as wrong to murder a murderer as it is to murder your innocent child.

This fits well with Kant's sense of morality as duty, indeed he says it necessarily follows. To Kant, a moral action is one which is taken out of a sense of duty, rather than personal desire or what you would prefer to do anyway. It's a trivial matter to apply "murder is wrong" to your innocent child, but it would take a true committment to principle to apply the same maxim to Adolf Hitler, for example. Read his (short) "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals" for a more complete description.

I hope this is somewhat useful in illustrating that there are ethics and morality outside of organized religion.

[RebelOne]

41. Though I don't believe in the bible, I do believe in one sentence

from it, which is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[vi5]

42. It's a pretty simple concept....

I know what it is like to feel emotional and/or physical pain. That is the result of the brain and nerve endings that come with the human form.

As a result of that, I do what I can in every aspect of my life to not make another person feel emotional and/or physical pain because I know that they have the same brain and nerve endings as a result of being human.

It's pretty simple and I didn't need a very large book or to go to church every week to put two and two together.

Maybe mine is a less glamorous or noble way of looking at it, but still. And yes, I realize my view is just a more cold way of stating the golden rule, but whoever came up with that was someone who simply had a good way with words and came to the same conclusion I did. Do everything in your effort to not make someone endure feelings that you yourself do not like.

Everything else is just gravy.

[VermontDem2004]

43. Most of my morality comes from my personal definition of fairness

Like I think stealing is wrong because it is unfair to the person you are stealing from, I think murder is wrong because you are being unfair to the person and to his/her's family and friends. I try to be fair as possible even though people aren't going to be to me. It's hard to explain, but there is some stuff that you know that is wrong without a bible telling you or whatever, you just know. I don't worry about reputation, lots of people have bad reputations even though they didn't do anything wrong. I have to admit I don't follow the law perfectly, like I run accross a busy street instead of using the crosswalk, I purchase an illegal drug :smoke: just to name a few examples. But I do not do anything that harms or hurt people in any way, like stealing, killing, fighting, etc. I don't think I am making any sense from what I am saying but I hope you do.

[onebigbadwulf]

45. Religious people are more inclined to be immoral

because unchanging dogma tells them how to act and they have no fear of death. Atheists, however, understand that in order to make life as great as possible, it must be great for everyone.

A christian has no problem killing in the name of his country because he believes that is what God would want. They have no problem administering the death penalty because they believe the death penalty is God's word. They had no problem holding slaves, bombing abortion clinics, or killing gays for the same reason.

An atheist finds killing to be troubling in any situation. We understand that any war will lead to death and find it morally wrong unless necessary for defense. Hurting others is always wrong to an atheist.

A christian is convinced that an objective permanent evil exists and is always there to attack the righteous. This makes for an inevitable impossibility to ever achieve world peace.

An atheist will do anything in his power to avoid and end conflict. With atheists world peace is completely possible.

A christian believes that god will provide to everyone and thus they have no problem denying universal health care or denying food to the poor.

An atheist understands that everyone is not on their own and most atheists support some form of universal health care and feeding of the poor.

[theemu]

46. Overgeneralization

[Cheswick2.0]

52. as a christian, I can say without a doubt

that you have no idea what I beleive or what guides me. You are simply wrong.... but by all means continue to talk for others rather than just for yourself.

BTW, I have a big problem denying universal healthcare and food for the poor. One of the reasons I beleive in those things is because I am a Christian.

If being an atheist includes intollerance and mischaracterization of other people's thinking, perhaps you should get your ass to church.

[BiggJawn]

47. I treat others as I would like to be treated.

Used to be called "The Golden Rule", before it was twisted by the Conservatives into "Get yours first, fuck the rest".

Religious people must be a sorry lot if the only reason they act decently to others is the fear that Sky Daddy is going to say "pull my finger" at their big interview....Sad...

Wilford Brimmley said it best when he was shilling oatmeal..."Because it's the RIGHT thing to do..."

It is ludicrous to hold a belief that "You can't be moral, because you don't know Jeebus" But I have met people like that, and no, they will NOT listen to reason.

[lemon lime]

48. morality is a generalization in itself...

If someone percieves morality as the doing of good, it must be based on some belief of thr difference of right and wrong. Whether we know it or not, good and evil exists even in the mind of the atheist. An atheists may not be able to attribute the differences to each as a diety or the devil, but there is a difference sometimes referred to as morality.
I for one am a Christian. I am not perfect just forgiven. I am working on improving myself each day.
I was once considered to be agnostic as I relied more on myself. I believed in a "higher power" first due to my scientific backround.
It goes something like this...
The physical world ( the universe ) can not exist in a vacumn. It must, as all physical things must, have an end. Where is the end? It must be bordered by a non physical realm. The spiritual realm. Physics demonstrates how this plays out. Matter can not be neverending. There must be something else out there. And if that is not enough, where did all the matter come from to begin with? Matter is transformed energy. If there is no spiritual realm, there could not be a random energy source floating around in nothingdom to create the matter for the big bang. This is where we find ourselves without God. Without answers.
Sorry if this went where no one intended, but I thought it was interesting.

[ComerPerro]

50. I am not an atheist, more of an agnostic

Its a matter of believing in a God of nature...


Anyway..

I think most people have hit this appropriately above.
I follow moral codes not because an invisible man told somebody to, and then that guy wrote it down in a book. I follow moral codes because it is the right thing to do.

And let me just say: I have seen "Christian morality" at work (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, John Ashcroft, George Bush, Ken Lay) and, quite frankly, I am disgusted by it.

The problem with basing your morality on religion is exactly what you mentioned: It is up to God to punish you. Yet, so many people violate their God's laws without batting an eye. I think they figure that they can get away with their sins in heaven just as they have here on Earth. Many think they can buy their way into salvation, and don't need to treat people well.
Also, some versions of fundamentalist Christianity teach that all you have to do to get into Heaven is give money and pretend to feel bad for your sins. Keep sinning, but feel bad about it for a few minutes and send money...


I would rather be around people whose moral code is set based on the principals of just being respectful and kind, and doing what they felt in their hearts was the right thing.