I declare LOTR die-hards (Tolkien purists) the biggest whiners in fandom

[DerekG]

Being a genre fan can be trying: the "Star Wars" series has but three superlative installments ("Sith," "A New Hope," "Empire"); and "Star Trek" fans have had to endure the unholy reign of Rick Berman.

Meanwhile, LOTR fans not only have Tolkien's absorbing trilogy to enjoy (to say nothing of the enchanting prequel and "The Silmarillion"), but were given three friggin' cinematic masterpieces...and still manage to complain about Jackson's decision to exclude Tom Bombadil!

You guys have never had to endure Ewoks.

Or "Voyager" and "Enterprise."

Hell, even Leonard Nimoy's "Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" has a retro lunacy to it. So buck up.

[ghostsofgiants]

1. ...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Being a die-hard Tolkien purist...

I have BARELY heard much complaining about Bombadil, or anything else for that matter.

Methinks you're extrapolating just a wee bit much.

[DerekG]

6. I've heard my share from friends

Try as I may to explain to them why the exclusion of the scouring of the Shire and the humanization of Faramir were wise choices, they won't let up on Jackson and Co.

It's maddening.

[realisticphish]

52. as a tolkien fan

i thought the end of the books was unbelieveably retarded. "Yay, hobbit wars!" :puke: They just had this fucking awesome battle with demon lords and orcs and shit, and then they go back and have a slapping contest to close out the book *sigh*

[Pithlet]

57. I agree.

I think both book and movie could have safely ended shortly after the ring was destroyed. I'd even give them a shortened version of the journey back. But as much as I love the trilogy, the ending was tedious.

[underpants]

3. I don't remember much complaining

They all seemed to receive it very well. This includes the toughest critic -my brother.

[khashka]

4. I still complain about that

But I don't consider the movies masterpieces. Gorgeously shot, true, absolutely stunning. But I didn't enjoy them.

Khash.

[LeftyMom]

5. Good lord yes

If any series I enjoy got half the movie LOTR did, I'd count myself content. Instead LOTR fans bitch about the absence of Tom Bombadil in LOTR and the Houses of Healing in ROTK. At least complain about that lousy green wave effect with the undead warriors instead, that'd be a legitimate gripe because it was really cheesy.

Okay, to be honest if my favorite series ever makes it to film, I'll probably be just as bad.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. Good morning to you, my dear LeftyMom!

I'm just wondering......What is your favorite series? And do you see any chance of it making it to film?

I loved LOTR, BTW.....just as they were made. I'm enough of a realist to know that you cannot put every little detail (as well as some of the big ones) into a film....there simply is not time to do it!

:loveya: :pals:

[LeftyMom]

13. I had a post and LeftyKid closed my window

Here's a link to the first book in my favorite series. They're really dense, I can't seer them making a good feature film. myabe a cable miniseries, like Dune.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553573403/qid=1133810394/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7976734-9865558?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[BreweryYardRat]

37. Yeah, gotta agree with you...

Too many things for a movie to follow, and the average moviegoer might well get turned off by the whole "likeable main characters die" bit.

Although I'd kill to see the Battle of the Blackwater, the Whispering Wood, and the Night's Watch fighting at the Fist on the big screen.

[ET Awful]

8. I can live without Bombadil, what pisses me off is the screwed up timeline

when they enter Moria and act like it was occupied by Dwarves a short time before. Moria had been abandoned for generations. Instead they have Gimli talking about receiving a warm welcome when they arrive.

Then there's that whole bullshit Arwen/Aragorn side story.

[0rganism]

26. Not exactly "generations"....

According to the LOTR timeline, the lag between the unfortunate end of Balin's expeditionary colony in Moria and the arrival of the Fellowship is about 25 years. While it would seem reasonable to think that Gimli would have heard something about a lack of communication from his relatives during that time, the script did manage to convey some of the history of Moria and the existence of a Dwarvish re-colonization attempt with a minimum of dialog.

I have mixed feelings about the Arwen-Aragorn sideshow. On the one hand, it was nice to see her character fleshed out somewhat, and I'm pretty sure her increased presence expanded the audience base. On the other, it led to throwing in a lot -- and I do mean a LOT -- of non-canonical material to an already lengthy film that left out some of what I'd consider to be more important scenes. I could go both ways on that one.

[NewJeffCT]

28. that was 1 part I didn't like

They made it sound like Gimli expected a big party in Moria in the movie.

[Bridget Burke]

34. At least Warrior!Arwen didn't show up at Helm's Deep.

That was in the original script, but the howls of outraged fans made a difference. Arwen was barely present in LOTR (if you don't count the Appendices). Some viewers would wonder why Aragorn was so cold to Eowyn if Arwen's part had not been expanded. Could it have been done differently?

I've watched the extras included with the DVD's & listened to most of the commentaries. Filming 3 movies more or less simultaneously was a hugely complex project; one is amazed that the result was coherent. Time & money were sharply budgeted. If the makers had it to do over again, they might do some things differently.

Fine points of the books & details of the films--& how they meshed or didn't--are topics for many a night's discussion over a pint or two. (Pipeweed optional.) Far more fun than just saying "PJ SUX"!

[CatBoreal]

65. Thank the Gods for that!

Warrior Arwen would have ruined the whole thing...

I think the reason they fleshed out Arwen was to make her appear to be as strong as Eowyn. Whenever I read the book, I unconsciously root for Aragorn to hook up with Eowyn because she seems to be more worthy of his love than Arwen.

Eowyn kicks some serious ass, and what does Arwen do? Wait at home for her man. ICK! Although I am disappointed that Eowyn wimps out at the end to become a healer instead of continuing on the path of a warrior and defender.

In the movies, both women are equally as strong, albeit with very different struggles. There would be no way I could cheer for Aragorn and Arwen's relationship if it were any other way.

[pokerfan]

66. What about Warrior Luthien (Silmarillion)

(I wish I could take credit for this, but I saved it long ago from somewhere.)

Luthien: Now there was a buttkicking Elven Woman!

The fairest child of Elves or Men, the daughter of a Maia, and the most accomplished singer of all time, she loved her man so much she was willing to knock out her guards, leave home and face down Sauron and beat Sauron's sorry ass just to stand by her man.

She was willing to go with him straight to Thangorodrim itself, put one over on Morgoth, and even after all that, still cared for him so much that she was willing to go to Mandos and talk the Valar into bringing him back to life!

Let's face it: Luthien Tinuviel was one hot thoroughly accomplished scared o' nothin' clever as hell broad.

Now, let's look at Arwen... According to Return of the King appendices A and B, Aragorn first met Arwen and fell in love with her in T.A. 2951 - but Arwen wouldn't even give him the time of day until twenty-nine years later. Her father, Elrond, made it clear that she wasn't gonna marry Aragorn unless he became the Ruler of Gondor and Arnor; and when Aragorn joined the Fellowship and
went forth on the hopeless mission to overthrow Sauron, did Arwen help him, as Luthien helped Beren? No! She stayed at home and read magazines until the War was already down to the last gasp, and even then she refused to show up herself
but just sent all of Aragorn's friends south to offer all the moral support instead! Oh, sure, once all the dirty work was already done, then she shows up - probably carried all the way there in a sedan chair by some sweating oafish
admirers - to finally say, "Ohhhh, Aragorn! Now that you've become the king of several hundred thousand acres of prime real-estate and defeated all of our dire enemies, suddenly you look much more handsome!"

Put it all together and what have you got? A cheap, greedy, standoffish gold-digging trollop.

Luthien or Arwen? Come on! Stop kidding around. The "fairest child of Elves or Men" wins hands down. If you're going to give us a contest, at least make it a relatively fair one... like, say, the favorite "who-would-win" contest from last
year: Arwen v. Eowyn: Mud-Wrestling For The Hand of Aragorn! :)

[BigMcLargehuge]

9. I dunno, the whole Rings trilogy was like spending 10 hours with Ewoks

if you ask me. Still, I liked them more than the Star Wars films where one frame of Jar Jar Binks is on parity with having an Ewok surgically affixed to your back and forced to sit through a combination Voyager/Enterprise marathon with no bathroom breaks.

[Robb]

14. You know, I've spent 10 hours with Ewoks

Say what you like, but the little buggers can really BBQ. :P

[Loonman]

10. It all centers around not getting laid

At all.

[nemo137]

56. This may be true.

As my friend says "You've got to do something with all that not-having-sex time."

[Reciprocity]

11. Apples and oranges.

The Lord of the Rings is a book, whilst Star Wars, and Star Trek where created for TV and the Cinema. If they (Star Wars and Star Trek) had first been books you would see the same things being said about, what was changed and what was left out of the movies.

[Pithlet]

58. Good point.

I think that, no matter how well done, there will always be gripes about a movie based on a popular book. It's impossible to fully capture the essence of a book on film. It's inevitable that things will have to be changed, or left out, and that people will be disappointed, no matter the genre.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Tom Bombadil was always a problem....

I think Tolkien himself had second thoughts. (His "Letters" are quite illuminating.)

I read LOTR back in to 60's--remember the psychedelic paperbacks? In fact, I read them several times. When I heard about the movies, I decided to reread them, after many years. I was afraid the movie images might "wreck" my mental ones. The books were better than I'd remembered.

THen, I loved the movies. They were not perfect, by any means. Given budget & time constraints, PJ & Co did quite well. Some plot changes were necessary--others are controversial. But the performances, visual & musical aspects showed the movie makers really cared.

Last Summer, the LOTR show came to Houston's Natural Science Museum--costumes, props, drawings, etc.--all on display. I went twice.

And, after finally reading the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales & Tom Shippey's fine books, I'm ready to start on the History of Middle Earth.

Yes, I'm having my cake & eating it, too.

[pokerfan]

17. Who/what was Bombadil anyway?

Eru incarnate? The spirit of the Old Forrest? If you bring a character into a film, there has to be some closure other than Gandalf saying towards the end, he's gonna have a long chat with him.

The biggest problem is they left the Barrow Downs as well, which is where the hobbits got the Numenorean blades. Instead, Strider/Aragorn had been carrying around hobbit sized blades, just in case, I guess.

Well, at least he wasn't carrying around the broken shards of Narsil, which never made sense to me in the books. So having it displayed in ivenDell was actually an improvement.

PJ did better than anyone could have or should have hoped for.

I hope he is the one to tackle Niven's Ring World.

[Xithras]

30. I always assumed that he was another Maia

Like Gandalf, I always thought that Bombadil was the bodily incarnation of one of the lower gods. I don't think Tolkein himself ever really explained what his intentions were with Tom, but it's obvious that he was never able to really complete the character. Based on the constraints laid out by the book, assuming that Bombadil was a Maia is really the only option I can see.

[pokerfan]

33. If he was Maia, why did the ring have zero effect upon him?

Tom was able to handle the ring and even wear it (!) without any ill effect or any sign of temptation.

"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil

Tolkien said it best: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954

Anyway you look at it, the movie didn't need ol' Tom.


From the Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html

[Xithras]

42. Good point, but the only other option is a Valar.

If Tom were a Valar, it would also explain his penchant for singing and rhyme, since that's what Eru created them for. It makes sense too, since the Valar are the only creatures who's powers extend beyond the planet itself. Remember the control he displayed over the trees in the forest? Toms song seemed to help control the world around him, which the Silmarillion clearly describes as a talent of the Valar. I don't recall any of the books, either the Silmarillion or the unfinished tales, ever describing what became of Orome, so it's entirely possible that Bombadil is merely his physical form. Or perhaps Aule, having sworn off his powers after the battles with Melkor. That would also explain Gandalf's reverence of him...Bombadil would in fact be one of Gandalfs own gods.

[pokerfan]

43. Valar is probably the best fit but....

The Silmarillion clearly states that Melkor was the first being from 'Outside' to enter the World, and yet Tom suggests that he was already here when Melkor arrived:

"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

So Tom was in Arda before the first Valar entered. Unless Tom is just boasting. Almost sounds like he was created along with the world, which supports the spirit of nature theory.

I can live Tolkien's own explanation that Tom was intended to be an enigma. It's also possible that Tolkien painted himself into a corner and didn't feel like fixing it.

[mainegreen]

45. I alway felt that was most likely.

That Tom was part of the world and its creation, a reflection of it. It would explain his musical nature, especially since he is not Valar. The world was sung into existance, hence Tom sings, being song himself.

:shrug:

[pokerfan]

48. always just felt right to me

He's just so earthy, much more so than the elves.

[Xithras]

46. That's not neccesarily a problem. I think people misinterpret that quote.

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside

Most people interpret this to mean that he was on Arda before Melkor came, but that's not what he actually said. The dark under the stars was created by the Valar themselves, so any of them could claim to have known what it was like before Melkor began his discord.

The whole world was created by the Valar, and as they created it they would have seen its forming. Even before entering the world, he would have seen it from afar, would have felt the music as the first raindrops were formed and the first oak went to seed. Bombadil says he remembers those things, not that he was actually there.

As for him being an enigma, I thought Tolkein made clear that he'd actually intended to do more with the character. When he failed to do so, he left him in because he thought an enigma would be good for the story.

[pokerfan]

47. not entirely convinced

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside

The use of the phrase, 'came from Outside,' tends to imply a certain POV. If TB was observing from the Outside, then it would have seemed more natural to state, 'the Dark Lord 'entered' or something similar.

I agree that the Valar theory is the best fit, just not entirely without its own set of problems.

Hmmmm, time for me to reread Gene Hargrove's essay on the subject:
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

[Xithras]

59. Neither am I, interesting essay though.

To be honest, I'm still not convinced that Bombadil isn't a Maia. Most people point to his apparent immunity from the rings effects as evidence that he has to be some kind of superior being, but I have to bring up the point that Frodo himself wasn't affected by the rings power at first. Like Frodo, Bombadil may simply be such a good, innocent creature that the rings power had no effect on him in the short time he was exposed to it. Remember that it took weeks for Frodo to begin feeling its effect, while Bombadil was only in its proximity for a few days (relatively, that whole time thing was odd).

My problem with the idea of him being some kind of nature spirit basically lies in the fact that none of the spirits mentioned in any of Tolkeins writings were anywhere near as powerful as Bombadil showed himself to be. He had a level of power far beyond anything on Arda, which basically leaves the Maia, the Valar, or Illuvatar himself.

[pokerfan]

61. Hargrove makes a very strong case for TB as a Valar

Even going so far as to identify him as Aule (and Goldberry as Yavanna). Hard to punch too many holes in his argument.

I think Tolkien wanted to give us nuts something we could argue about for years.

At least these arguments are a little bit more substantive than the usual ST/SW variety, e.g. how many Enterprise H's would be required to defeat a Star Destroyer using only photon torpedoes?

[tigereye]

15. Tom Bombadil is a wonderful character

it would have been nice to see him in the film... he represents a "kinder, gentler, calmer" kind of perspective that the books seem to have in comparison to the movie. My husband reread them all out loud at my kid's bedtime, after we had seen the films. The book is wonderful to read aloud and gave me a new appreciation of Tolkein's skills. I had not read the books since I was a teen, and I liked them even more as an adult. However, the tone of the movie was more different from the book than I expected. However, the movies are great, just a different kind of reinvisioning.

[Reciprocity]

16. I don't have so much a problem about leaving out Tom Bombadil,

as I do leaving out the Barrow Downs. For those who read the books you may remember that it was in the Barrow Downs that Tom Bombadil gives each hobbit a dagger from the barrow-wight's treasure pile in The Fellowship of the Ring. This is significant because without the dagger Merry would not have broken the spell on the Witch-king of Angmar that allowed Eowyn to destroy him. There was a prophecy that “ not by the hand of Man shall he fall” . I loved that part of the book.

From ROTK...
"Out of the wreck rose a Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled foward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind the mighty knee.

<Snip>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
LOTR, ROTK chapter 6.

[Chovexani]

18. LotR is seriously the craziest part of fandom

Though Harry Potter fandom has been running neck and neck with it for years, and nearly eclipsed it with the Great Shipping Wars of July '05.

LotR just brings the crazy out in people. On one hand you have the hardest of the hardcore old school fans who treat Tolkien's work like the freakin' Bible and lose their mind over Tom Bombadil (which was a stupid part of the book anyway--yeah, I fuckin' said it). Then you've got the online more movie-oriented part of the fandom, complete with the Tinhat contingent (fangirls who are convinced Dom Monaghan and Elijah Wood are Sekrit Gay Lovers and there was a conspiracy by the studio to cover it up, and they were sending Super Sekrit messages to the Tinhats through their clothing) and the craziest story I have heard out of any fandom, the whole Victoria Bitters saga.

There's almost no finer form of entertainment than watching these two camps fight like cats and dogs, BTW.

[DerekG]

19. Is there a site where these two factions meet?

That is one pissing match I'd love to see.

[Bridget Burke]

24. No, but some sites are more versatile than others....

The Barrow Downs forums include folks who delve deeply into the works of JRRT. And folks who love the movies. (Many belong to both camps.)

www.barrowdowns.com/theme-mordor.php

Seek elsewhere for the slashers!

[EstimatedProphet]

21. What is the Victoria Bitters saga?

[Reciprocity]

22. IMO Sports fans have these two genre’s beat.

I mean, I haven’t heard of any of the fans killing someone because they didn’t make a quidditch goal at the World Cup.

[DerekG]

27. Don't get me started on sports fans

As weird as some nerds are, let it be said that their interests revolve around theme and allegory. There is some measure of cognitive power being harnassed.

Why people obsess over a bloody game, on the other hand, is beyond my comprehension.

[ET Awful]

31. Baseball fans are the worst, especially the diehard baseball fans

that quote you stats about which player farted during the third pitch in the 6th inning of the 3rd game o the '78 world series.

[Reciprocity]

32. Chovexani quote:(fangirls who are convinced

Dom Monaghan and Elijah Wood are Sekrit Gay Lovers).

They most have gotten that from...
"Very Secret Diary" site.

http://www.ealasaid.com/misc/vsd/

<Snip>

The Very Secret Diary of Meriadoc Brandybuck
By: Cassandra Claire


DAY ONE

Got in trouble for setting off fireworks at party. Suspect Gandalf not actually all that annoyed and was merely excuse to get us young hobbit boys wet and lathered up. Became even more suspicious when “washing dishes” punishment followed by “polishing Gandalf’s staff” punishment and “massaging Gandalf’s feet” punishment and “nude leapfrog in the cabbage patch” punishment, I mean, who’s he trying to kid, really? Especially with the foot thing.

DAY TWO

V. promising start to day when discovered carrot that was just right shape. Even more promising when Pippin nabbed six cabbages, two bags potatoes, and three ears corn, although cannot help but think Pippin being slightly over-optimistic. I mean, could probably manage two ears corn, but not before breakfast.

All went downhill though when bumped into Frodo and faithful bit of rough trade, whoops, loyal manservant Sam, in cornfield. Pippin was prevented from extended cuddle with Frodo by Sam, who in v. surprising butch moment tossed Pippin down a cliff. In ensuing scuffle carrot was broken. Am v. sad.

DAY THREE

Cutting across country with Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Are being pursued by overdressed and v. crabby set of riders in outdated black ensembles. As told Gandalf “The Gray” earlier, monochromatic look is so out. Wonder if Frodo avoiding bad breakup or jealous exes? Have heard hobbit-swapping all the rage up in Hobbiton currently, although would not go in for that sort of thing myself.

DAY FIVE

Everything going from bad to worse. Stop-off in Bree resulted in pick-up of disaffected and unshaven human who is obviously pervy hobbit-fancier, not that anyone listens to me. Insisted we all share bed in his room instead of going back to own perfectly nice quarters, then hung about all night most likely hoping for mad hobbit foursome under the sheets. Didn’t happen, but did have to spend all night hanging on to Pippin’s belt to prevent him from climbing right over Sam and onto Frodo. Does Pippin have death wish, or what?

DAY SIX

Was woken up most unpleasantly as was being tickled by hobbit-fancying human. Told him to sod off and he said “That’s not what you said last night.” After moment of confusion realized he thought I was Pippin. Explained. Human slunk away, most embarrassed, after explaining, “I’m really meant to be King, you know.” Sure he is, and I’m the Elf Queen of Mirkwood.

DAY SEVEN

In Rivendell. Have been stuck sleeping right next to bathroom. Splashing noises all night long and strawberry soap suds making floors all slippery. Woke up last night only to discover Elrond had crawled into bed with me. Extricated himself with much embarrassment after realizing hobbit he was groping under bedsheets was not Pippin. Have decided to invest in name tag.

DAY NINE

Have fixed carrot with special elf glue. Go me!

DAY ELEVEN

Have agreed to go on Quest to keep eye on Pippin. Also curious to see what will happen with Frodo, as Aragorn most obviously fancies him. Sam will of course kill him if he tries anything.

Hope he tries something.

DAY FIFTEEN

Boromir teaching us how to swordfight. Typical human, most unsubtle, always dropping sword down trousers and asking us “little ones” to come and get it. Boromir had a go at ruffling Frodo’s hair today and Aragorn almost snicked off his head. Humans so amusing. Caught Pippin eyeing the elf doing his morning exercises today but managed to distract him with an eggplant. Do not know what will do when run out of vegetables.

DAY SIXTEEN

Boromir asked me to go for walk with him. Am not falling for old ‘Horn of Gondor’ trick. Am not. Am not. Oh, bloody hell. Just this once.

DAY NINETEEN

Am in bad mood. Boromir called me “Pippin” at most inopportune time. Pointed out to him that I am Merry and that we have been conducting meaningful relationship for three weeks, but he just laughed and patted my head. Realize he actually cannot tell me apart from Pippin either. Am doomed to be Indistinguishable Backup Hobbit forever, even in matters of romance. Am considering dramatic haircut, perhaps mohawk of some sort.

DAY TWENTY

Got mohawk but no one can see it as is v. dark in Mines of Moria. Is difficult to keep eye on Pippin properly. Woke up to discover Legolas sneaking under covers with me. Told him was not Pippin. Legolas said, “Not much difference really, eh?” In ensuing scuffle broke my carrot again. Gave to Gandalf to fix. Gandalf said, “Fool of a Took! I have better things to do than mend your vegetables.” Did not correct Gandalf, as am afraid of pointy hat.

DAY TWENTY-TWO

Gandalf fell into shadow. Took carrot with him. Am most miffed. Did best to comfort Pippin, but Pippin far more cheered by Legolas’ nude rendition of Silmarillion: The Musical. Could not watch myself – far too many high kicks.

DAY TWENTY-EIGHT

In Lothlorien. Was visited by no less than fifty elves and a woodchuck last night, all convinced was Pippin. Pippin of course nowhere to be found, probably off with Boromir. Something must be done. Woodchuck awfully persistent. Perhaps….no, certainly not.

DAY THIRTY

Kidnapped by orcs. All according to plan. Have told Pippin will have to shag our way out of captivity. Pippin seeming pleased. Wait till he realizes I meant he will have to shag me to get out of captivity. In addition, orcs have given me brand new carrot as reward for my having painted large yellow target marks on Boromir while he was not looking. All in all a v. good day.

[TimeChaser]

44. Speaking of fandom

I have something you might enjoy ^^

[Taverner]

20. Not only that they have the Ralph Bakshi 79 film to enjoy

Albeit incoherent...it was a masterpiece of animation.

As for the Rankin Bass musical "Return of the King"...ummmm let's not go there...

[LeftyMom]

23. That's the one with the bard that sounds like a sheep, right?

FroOoDoOo of the nine fingerRrs and the ring of DoOoOm! :puke:

[WeRQ4U]

25. Everything in moderation........

That's my motto.

I liked the movies.

[0rganism]

29. I think the biggest affront was the handling of the Ents

Bombadil I could have lived without, although I do think the omission of the Barrow Wight incident was a missed opportunity. The beginning of Fellowship is a drag, and Jackson was right to skip over some of it.

But portraying the Ents as weak-minded impulsive idiots instead of slow and patient beings fully capable of reaching decisions to act on their own, now that was an inexcusable abuse in an otherwise decent batch of films.

[pokerfan]

40. PJ did make the Ents rather "hasty" didn't he?

But on the plus side, I thought they looked 'marvelous.' I've read the books many times beginning in 1977 and Tolkien describes everything in such minute detail, I had a clear vision of everything, except the Ents. There, he just kinda glossed over the details. In my mind, I could go, 'OK, walking, talking tree' and leave it at that. I was afraid that PJ was gonna make them look something like the Apple Trees from Wizard of Oz. :) But I was very pleased with the way they turned out.

[0rganism]

51. No quibbles whatsoever with the animation, that was consistently solid

I especially liked the way their "feet" sort of latched into the ground like roots as they walked. And that led to what turned out to be inflated expectations on my part for how Jackson & co. would handle their role in the storyline.

[Orsino]

35. I declare LotR fandom officially over.

You won't have 'em to kick around much longer. The movies are done with, and the few orcs or Aragorns you see at conventions will continue to be outnumbered, vastly, by the Trekkers 'n' Klingons. "No hablamos Elvish."

[Reciprocity]

36. Not until after someone makes The Hobbit.

[0rganism]

50. I'm still holding out for the Silmarillion TV series, myself

I think it's too good to pass up. Everything that makes the Silmarillion totally unsuited to a feature film would be an asset in making a TV series. The countless disjoint storylines and open-ended plots, the choppy writing, the lack of dialog and detailed descriptions of events, these would spell disaster for film adaptation but complete freedom for a multiseason TV series.

[Bridget Burke]

38. Sorry, Tolkien "fandom" is pretty old....

Remember "Frodo Lives"? Despite a few "purists"--the movies made far more Tolkien fans.

Hasn't it been quite a few years since Star Trek began? Don't some of the most treasured bits go back many years? Or--has "Enterprise" won over new armies of Trekkers?

[Orsino]

62. I referred to the movie fad.

While I'll always love the movies, they're long since over. Because they're not The Continuing Adventures Of someone in the way the Trek has been and will be again, LotR movie fandom is no rival to the Trekkers.

A movie version of The Hobbit is all that's realistically left to the franchise, and it's looking less likely, or years away.

[Dukkha]

39. it is the nature of the "fanboy"

They constantly nitpick and run down people far superior in intellect and talent to somehow make their sad pathetic lives seem more relevant.

To see fanboy whining in it's most bizarre extreme just look into any thread at www.aintitcool.com. They are so unbelievably pathetic Kevin Smith used them as the source of inspiration for Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back.

[blindpig]

41. Not so much the deletions as the additions pissed me off.

Knew from the start that all could not be fit into the film and was philosophical after the 1st installment. The shit that Jackson made up was unnecessary. Elves at Helms Deep particuarly pissed me off.

Yes, it was surperbly filmed, a fine movie, but it was not the story in my head. Just another example of literature not translating well into film. After LOTR and Dune I have stopped wishing for my favorite fiction to become a movie. I've yet to see Hitchhikers Guide and fear the worst.

[realisticphish]

53. if you see HHGTG

with a TOTALLY open mind... you'll survive. that's what i did, and it worked. If it had been made for british people, it would have been awesome. but it, of course, was hollywooded up... love story, etc. but they kept most of the good stuff in, and aside from some weak dialogue, was an overall funny movie.


i hope no sequals though

[LanternWaste]

49. I'll go you one further...

I'll go you one further...

I think the first Star Wars film (the one made n '76) was the *only* good Star Wars film. The rest? Well, not so good.

I'm glad I never got into the Star Trek franchise... women on combat oriented missions wearing high-heels? :eyes:

I'm gonna go hide, now. I think I've pissed off every sci-fi fundy out there....


:hide:

[0rganism]

54. "New Hope" crushed the chances for the other films

Not that the others weren't quite capable of crushing themselves, one way or another, but go back and watch Star Wars/New Hope critically and you'll see stuff that just shouldn't have made it into the final edits. The acting was weak and the characters were just as thin as in any of the other movies in the series. What sets episode 4 apart as a cinematic achievement is the newness of the atmosphere and the scope of the project. The other films were still able to make use of the atmosphere and scope of the Lucasverse, but not the newness.

People are quick to find flaws in the plots and characters and acting and dialog of all the other films in the series, and yet they give New Hope a bye. It's just that the others aren't "new" in the same way that New Hope was in '76, so it's easier to focus on all the other weaknesses that were just as present in the original but far and away overshadowed by the magnitude of what Lucas unleashed on the world in '76.

Lucas' later Star Wars films were, in a way, victims of the early success of New Hope.

[LanternWaste]

55. That's my bottom line

I've had some pretty in-depth conversations with my pal's about this very topic and it comes down to this...

With some horribly delivered lines ("What's that 'droid carrying that's so important?" comes to mind), with wooden dialogue, cheesey sets and boom mikes that can be seen...

I simply enjoy watching the first one and consider watching the others a chore. Even today. That's my bottom line

[DanCa]

60. Try being a superman movie fan. Ever since superman two....(nt)

[malmapus]

63. Yeah but do you have friends who refuse to watch the end part of

Return of the Jedi because there is no way the Empire could loose that battle?

I have a friend who cuts the movie off right before that rebel fighter slams into the bridge of the SSD heh.

OMG Voyager, WTF is up with Nelix!!?? Always called him the munchkin..only good thing about that series was BG (Borg Girl =D ).

I admit I did wonder why Tom was excluded, but after watching the making of LOTR and all and hearing Peter talk about it, I understand...Tolkien had a lot and the job of condensing it all to fit a movie must have been insane.


Oh and personally, I think there is no way in hell the Empire could loose the battle of Endor either. Shock troops being beaten by Ewoks!!?? Not on my watch!

[geniph]

64. Yes, but all we had for years was the Ralph Bakshi abomination

Well, and all the books and short stories and stuff.

No one is allowed to call themself an actual LOTR die-hard unless they have read all the appendices, the Silmarillion, the Lost Tales, and the Unfinished Tales. So there.

I did kinda miss Bombadil, but not nearly as much as the Scouring of the Shire or the Barrowdowns. And the Ents were too cutesy. Leaving out the Barrowdowns was a BIG mistake, as it makes what Merry does to the Witch-King MUCH less significant.