At Kroger just now, I saw a lady pay for $200 worth of stuff with $50

[CarpeDiebold]

because of food stamps. i'm pissed as @#$% even though i think it's a good program to help those who need the crutch. it was pretty basic supplies, toilet paper and milk and stuff(just a lot of it) and they had a big family, so i understand the cost. so it's not even like she was abusing the program, but still...that's a 67 percent discount.

i wish i weren't angry about this but my first reaction is f-ing furious.

[Taverner]

1. Would you rather her and her family starve?

Or worse yet, go without toilet paper (ewwwww)?

Personally, I'd rather she have the discount...

[supernova]

2. I thought you were going to say

she paid for $200 worth of stuff with $50 in coupons.

But hey, if she's using the program appropriately, good on her. Maybe she only gets to the store once a month. :shrug:

[lizziegrace]

3. It's the first of the month

Everyone's allotment was filled. I would guess that she probably spent nearly everything she was allotted for the month in that one trip.

(I cashier at Kroger part time, we see the balance available when they run the cards.)

[lizziegrace]

5. The program pays for food only

no deli items, no toiletries or paper products. Just food.

[DS1]

4. sucks to be you

:eyes:

[gollygee]

6. I guess I don't understand why you were furious?

You think it's a good program

they were buying necessities

what's the problem?

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. I believe that's the issue - he knows he shouldn't be angry,

but he is, and he isn't sure why.

[Deja Q]

7. You mean, it'd be nicer if we could all get it for 67% less.

[ForrestGump]

8. I thought you were going to say that she used the old Jedi Mindf*** thing,

along the lines of "here is two hundred dollars" as she passed a fifty. 'cos I wish I could do that.

[DS1]

13. *wagging finger at a case of Maker's Mark*

These are the essential goods you're looking for :D

[ForrestGump]

19. Admiring a 32-oz can of black beans:

The Force is strong in this one.

[Rabrrrrrr]

26. "I'm not the payer you're looking for"

"You're not the payer we're looking for - move along. Move along."

[tigereye]

36. good one

:rofl:

[Lars39]

10. But would you trade places with her?

Eat what she eats, or maybe doesn't eat, since it's pretty hard to stretch til next time.

[Debi]

11. Yes, your tax dollars belong in your pocket - what a waste

that the poor get help :eyes:

And it's not a crutch, for some it's the only way they can eat...for others it's something they need until they can get a job that will feed their family. A job that will pay taxes so someone else can receive the needed assistance.

[China_cat]

43. And she probably had to pay at least 50% of the face

value of the food stamps in order to get them. No matter what you think, food stamps AREN'T free.

[matcom]

12. right.

the poor should NOT buy toilet paper DAMMIT!

:eyes:

buh-bye

[MissB]

117. They can't even buy toilet paper with food stamps.

Only food items.

[salin]

124. probably a part of the $50 in cash part of the bill.

[Midlodemocrat]

14. Holy shit. How can you look yourself in the mirror?

Where is your compassion? And, why do you care? Shit, if I were there, I would have paid for her groceries so she could get food at the end of the month.

This is a disgusting post.

[Cathyclysmic]

15. We are paying for the program with taxes

any discounts retailers take off their 100% to 200% mark up is helping everyone, and they still make a profit.

[matcom]

16. don't look now folks - he ISN'T coming back here

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

23. Yup, noticed that.... another hit and run, folks

[CarpeDiebold]

29. matcom! et tu?

nope, not a hit and run. sorry.

*hope and pray i don't get sent packing*

[redwitch]

17. I used food stamps for about eight months when I was 18 and a student

I was grateful to have enough to eat but embarrassed and ashamed whenever I stood at the cash register. I was really conscious of what I bought- no junk food, lots of fresh veggies. And I felt humiliated every time I handed over the stamps. Maybe you should be counting your blessings instead of her groceries.

[last_texas_dem]

18. I wouldn't be angry with her

There's justifiable reason to be angry with those abusing the system, but no need for those following the rules, as it sounds like this woman was.

Often, those using food stamps will cash almost all of the voucher in at the first of the month and just stock up. So it may seem like a ridiculous amount of groceries, but it's probably just that she is going on and buying most of her month's groceries right now instead of getting a few each week.

Last summer I worked as a cashier at a grocery store, and I'd be lying if I didn't say there were some cases involving people using food stamps that did frustrate me. Like, when customers spent most of their food stamp funds on junk food (covered by food stamps) or bought alcohol or cigarettes in addition (not covered by food stamps). But then again, if they qualify for the program legally, I guess I shouldn't complain as I don't believe I would really be for policing everything they consume. It's just, especially with the alcohol and cigarette consumption, it frustrated me.

There were times I did wish they would outlaw the WIC program just so I didn't have to fill out all those cards! (It's really a good program, though.)

[LostinVA]

20. OMG

I can't believe I just read this here... next you'll be saying she drove away in a Lincoln Town car or something, like my Freeper relatives....

[CarpeDiebold]

21. whoa dudes, chill

i'm absolutely for the program, and i'm not opposing her buying the things she needs. i'm very glad that tax dollars are going for this purpose(as opposed to, oh, legalized murder of other nationals).

i'm all for government helping hte poor with this needed crutch, but it was just a gut reaction i wish i didn't have but did. it's like one of the other posters said, it's just a first reaction. if anything, this makes me support the program more cuz i see that there are plenty who don't abuse it and are actually making good use of it.

dang, y'all chill. i was just getting that off my chest, not trying to troll...

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. Read my post right below - what I predicted has indeed happened

How very sad.

[Misunderestimator]

79. That is not at all what you said in the OP. You resented it and that was

obvious.

You need to chill apparently.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. Ah, don't feel too bad - it's a natural, human response, and you

are only being honest about it.

There are times that I get pissed off about stuff that I know is right.

The good thing here is that you wish you weren't angry, so that means you are aware of your feelings.

I'm sure you are gonna get dumped on by a bunch of "good intentioned liberals" because they either refuse to read what you actually are saying and will simply hyper-emote on whatever word combination triggers their button ("food stamps" "angry"), or they'll dump just because you dare to admit to a natural human feeling of anger about something that you shouldn't be. But I will not dump on you - I empathize, and I've been there many times. I have on occasion posted threads about "Such and such happened, and I KNOW that my response is totally inappropriate, but this is how I feel" and instead of people saying "gosh, tell us about it" they proceeded to hammer my ass to the wall for "being so wrong". Well, shit, I already said I knew I was wrong, dumbasses.

I applaud you for your honesty.

Food stamps can be touchy - I would get angry at the food stamp people when I was a checker who would buy sacks and sacks of shit food for their family: snacks, canned puddings, cake mixes, frozen dinners, etc., and almost nothing of any nutritional or food value. And sometimes, like you, I would just get mad for no good reason at all, or because they were getting in food stamps more than I made in two weeks, even though I knew they obviously needed the food stamps. And even though I knew I should be happy I worked and could afford to feed myself, we're still human, and those feelings surface - and it's unhealthy NOT to admit to them and raise them up for inspection.



And that's a 75% discount, by the way, if you don't mind a math corrective.

[CarpeDiebold]

27. wow that was scary

i think most of the posters who replied with the you asshole! type repleis didn't even read the rest of the post.

if i were in her position, i'd be damned glad to have the hlep. like i said, i'm more than happy to pay taxes and really am glad food stamps exist, but it was just an initial reaction.

**whoa**

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. Yes, it's painfully obvious that many people did not read your post

or performed a bodacious amount of eisegesis, making it read what they wish it read.

Sorry you had to trake so many flames for being - gasp - honest and self-critical.

[Beaverhausen]

60. Your initial reaction? After you drove all the way home and fired up...

...your computer? Really though, you are FOR the program. :eyes:

Sorry, I don't buy it. Unless you posted from your blackberry in line behind the woman you had time to think about it.

Just why are you angry?

[CarpeDiebold]

66. no i was writing about

what i thought when i was AT the store. i kept thinking about it the whole drive home, and it really made me uncomfortable that i even felt angry about it, so i thought i'd get it off my chest here. though maybe i should have posted in general discussion or someplace less casual.

[Rabrrrrrr]

69. If you'd posted it in GD, you'd probably be on fire

This was the safest spot for it - or some place with little traffic, like the religion discussion group. :-)

I continue to be amazed in this thread at the number of people who are STILL refusing to read your post and your actual intentions.

[CarpeDiebold]

70. oh i've never been to general discussion

but i hear that's where the dangerous threads usually end up.

i wish i could delete this stupid thread. more trouble that it's worth.

[Beaverhausen]

74. Just why did you start the thread anyway?

Did you want other people to agree with you? So you wouldn't feel so guilty about feeling "fucking furious"?

Really- what did you expect?

[CarpeDiebold]

75. Well i guess it was wishful thinking

that other people have had similar experiences before. i was very uncomfortable that i had that reaction. so yeah, i guess it was a guilt driven thing. plus it was good to just get it off my chest.

but whatever, if i had just thought thru it for a few minutes, i'd have been ok. Rabrrrr seems to be the only one who can sympathize with my situation.

[tjdee]

114. I think sympathy is not the thing you need, LOL.

I said this below, but I think you should be happy with your feeling of discomfort at your initial reaction. That's the feeling you should be going with, not so much seeking sympathy for thinking like that.

You know you shouldn't be, which is why you were uncomfortable with it on the drive home. Self-correction. :thumbsup:

[Ariana Celeste]

76. Why are you being so harsh?

God forbid somebody FEELS something and then decides to be honest with themselves, get it off their chests, and you know, maybe be able to find out why they felt that way. Did you miss the last sentence in the OP or what? I guess maybe we should all just be perfect.

[Beaverhausen]

78. He won't answer the question many of us are asking-why is he angry?

I'm not being harsh...he started the thread- he needs to deal with it.

and he won't get any sympathy from me for being "fucking furious" that people have to use food stamps. Honest emotion? OK but I think he needs to post that at, you know, some other website if he wants people to agree with him.

Just getting it off my chest...

[Ariana Celeste]

80. He did farther down

Replying to someone who wasn't rude about it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

83. And maybe he doesn't need to DEFEND himself for an EMOTION

If you had READ his post, you would know that he isn't looking for agreement, because there's nothing to agree with - he's already said that his reaction was wrong and that he wishes he didn't feel that way.

In nowhere in that post does he say welfare people suck or that welfare is wrong - in fact, he says food stamps are a good thing.

For fuck's people, please, read a post before you respond to it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

82. Maybe if you bothered to actually READ his post,

for what the post SAYS instead of the evil bigotry that you WISH was in it, you'd know why he posted the thread.

Here, read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4535811&mesg_id=4535888

Because that's how you and a whole lot of people on this thread are acting.

[Beaverhausen]

85. yes I read his post

He said this:

"i wish i weren't angry about this but my first reaction is f-ing furious."

Maybe you missed that part.

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. No, I read that part.

I don't see why that is worth villifying.

he's being honest about emotions. He's not being bigoted or mean or accusatory of people on welfare.

perhaps you are perfect, and you've never, ever, ever, ever, ever responded negatively to anyting that you shouldn't have, and so perhaps this is beyond your experience. But us mere mortals have honest emotional reactions to stuff every day of our lives.

[Beaverhausen]

90. Ok- so where do I say I'm perfect? that I never respond negatively?

show me...I missed that part.

This is crazy...just what did he expect people to say when he posted this?

[Rabrrrrrr]

92. I just assumed that since you do not allow him to have an emotional

response due to being imperfect, and one that is only a response, not an action, and a response which he has recognized as being an unhealthy one, that meant that you are perfect, because I'm sure you are not a hypocrite.

[Beaverhausen]

99. Can you answer my question since you seem to be his defender

and he won't answer for himself?

What did he expect when he posted that he was angry about seeing a woman using food stamps?

As you can see many people have reacted the same way I have to seeing this.

It's one thing to have the reaction he had, it's another entirely to post it to a progressive website and then be surprised when he gets a less than sympathetic reaction.

[Rabrrrrrr]

103. No, only he can answer. I am not him.

But you see, you still haven't read his OP - he didn't post because he was angry that someone used food stamps.

He posted that he was upset with himself for feeling angry seeing someone use food stamps.

Perhaps to some, these are not different issues. To me, they are WORLDS apart.

he has already shown that he was wrong - I don't see why people need to keep piling hot coals on him. He knows it already. He's past the need for accusations, because he's already accused himself, and no greater accusation can be given a person than that which he/she gives to him/herself.

Which is why I posted something that said, in effect, "Wow - I've had really surprising emotional responses to things to that I'm not proud of; you are not alone, don't worry about, but think about it."

Progressive people would take the tack that I subscribe to; freeper mentality is the attack mentality.

[Beaverhausen]

111. oh, ok- we are all freepers

all of us who don't see what YOU see in his post. Ok, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

[CarpeDiebold]

112. no, im surprised that people aren't reading what's being said

and are lashing out with their canned speeches.

the original post could have used a lot more tact, but i think most people have made peace with this. either they hate my guts for thinking what i did at all, or they accept that i'm not able to articulate myself more clearly but let me off the hook for at least admitting that it's the wrong reaction to have to begin with. just let this thing die, will ya?

seems to me you've convinced yourself that i'm some conservative creep and you're looking for evidence to convince yourself of that...it was just a badly worded post, you won't ifnd anythign else there.

and rabrrrr is infinitely more articulate about defending his position(which happens to be the same as mine, that it's better to ask why i thought this at all rather than rejecting the fact that it happened) so it'd just be better for me to shut up about this and not create more angst...which is why i have stopped responding to your knee jerk reactions.

[Beaverhausen]

113. uh- you might want to check out the rest of the thread

lots of us "knee jerk" reactors here.

just answer this- why did you post the thread in the first place? What did you expect people to say?

[CarpeDiebold]

116. read #58 and 59

and you'll find out why i posted this and why i felt the anger in teh first place. and where it went.

know what? i was afraid i'd be right about this, but i was. you didn't read the thread. you're definitely a knee jerk reactor, now there's no doubt about it. if you read the rest of the thread and still feel i'm an asshole, there's nothing i can do about that. but at least give me the benefit of the doubt and read the rest.

[foreigncorrespondent]

130. Well I read all your words...

...and I posted below blasting you. Do I look for forgiveness for what I said? Absolutely not. I will not give you a pass on this simply because I have been there and am currently and know how it feels to have to take handouts.

And no, having an angry response to this is NOT a natural human reaction. If it was, we all would have the same reaction every damn time.

How could you be so ignorant?

[redqueen]

30. You fuckin rock, dude. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. I may rant, but I do try to be logical and sensible

Thanks!!

You make me feel better for going out on a limb ad defending an apparently unpopular EMOTION.

[CarpeDiebold]

32. whoa man

you're like the DU nostradamus! everything you said happened to the WORD.

:bow down:

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. No, not Nostradamus - merely a statistically darn good chance

based on past happenings.

[tigereye]

47. I suspect many people feel like you did at times

and would not admit it. However, we all benefit from many gov't programs... home loans, school loans (read Santorum and Gingrich for example), GI bill, etc. And people tend to forget that gov't programs (typically proposed by Dems and not typically cut by Dems) benefit all classes. :)

[CarpeDiebold]

51. yeah i hear ya

my entire education(4 years of college, 4 more years of grad school, then 3-7 more years of loan deferments while i train) will be supported by the government. i can never be thankful enough for that, and i'm sure folks who are on welfare feel the exact same gratitude.

but i've experienced that and have had time to digest the theory of why it exists. welfare has been theory and coffee shop conversation to me all my lfie and i guess seeing it being used in real life was a bit of a shock for me.

for what it's worth, i see this as more reason for me to support the program now that i've actually SEEN it help someone and that initial reaction(which i dont' even know why it occurred..i've benen a die hard liberal for a long time) has died down...

[redqueen]

35. Yeah... takes courage.

And you did it well, not all passionately and curse-word-filled-y like I would have. :blush:

[redwitch]

46. I don't understand the discount thing here.

I'm pretty sure that the margin for groceries is really, really tight. Grocers need to sell consistent volume to make a profit and there is very little room to discount. Friends of mine owned a small grocery store and that is what they told me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. Discount was the word the OP used - he said it was $200

worth of groceries, but cost only $50 because of food stamps, so that's a 75% "discount", in a sense, assuming that he meant that the person used $150 in food stamps.

I don't think he meant that the store discounted or anything.

And you are right, grocery stores tend to run on very tight margins on almost everything in the store.

[redwitch]

50. thanks, it makes sense now.

I'm so dense sometimes!

[last_texas_dem]

52. It may be the price for the groceries not covered

When I worked at the grocery store, with a food stamp customer you would simply ring up all the items the same way you would with anyone else. Then they would take their food stamp card (in Texas, it was a card that looked like a credit card called a "Lone Star" card; there are probably similar type things in other states), scan it, and the computer would separate out the non-food items from the rest and that would be what they would pay. So it wasn't really a discount: they were simply getting the food items free (up to a certain amount per month) and paying for the non-food. In the case of the customer the original poster is referring to, the amount they paid may have not been because of a discount on food but simply paying full price for the non-food items (toilet tissue, paper towels, etc.) and getting the food items free.

Sorry if you already knew all of this!

[redwitch]

56. gotcha, thanks

nt

[timber84]

119. Excellent post Rabrrrrr

kudos for you

[flvegan]

25. Walk a mile in her shoes. Then, when you know her situation

come back and be pissed if it's justified.

[LSK]

34. did you follow her to her Hummer and to her McMansion?

All the welfare people are fucking loaded you know!

:sarcasm:

[BlueJazz]

37. ..If if were not for all the Food Stamp and Welfare people, we could...

..and would have enough money to pay for decent schools, better highways and Health Care
in this country.

[BlueJazz]

38. That's the most STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard..

..anybody say.

[BlueJazz]

40. I'm sorry..I'm an Idiot..

[BlueJazz]

42. You're Forgiven..

[ghostsofgiants]

48. Dammit, I was hoping for a single-person flamewar then...

Why the shit did you forgive yourelf and admit to your idiocy?!

[BlueJazz]

64. I..ah..Don't get out much.

:smoke:

[madinmaryland]

127. A single person flame war!

:rofl:

That was pretty close!!!!!

[ghostsofgiants]

151. If only he hadn't admitted his idiocy...

So close. x(

[redwitch]

53. You are really silly.

:-)

[Sugar Smack]

55. LOL!!!! Thank you for the levity.

It was necessary. :D

[CarpeDiebold]

41. except that's not what i said

...

i think this is what it feels like to post in GD. have people NOT read ANY of the posts and then get on a soapbox and rant.

[BlueJazz]

45. Just having fun with my weird Self-Humor..

:)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

59. Hey! Give him a break!

;-)

[Blue Diadem]

39. I see you said you wish you weren't angry..

but have you given thought about why you became so angry?

[Frank Cannon]

44. I understand how you feel; I once felt the exact same way

And then I became dead broke, without a job and no prospects (and through no fault of my own), for several months. Every freaking day was a frightening exercise in survival. And I didn't even have a family to support. It was just me, and that alone was miserable enough.

That's when my attitude about "those lazy poor people" did a 180-degree turn.

Seriously, if you don't intuitively understand why this program and this woman's use of it is okay, go ahead and lose your job, lose your home, and go out on the street with no means of support whatsoever. You'll begin to understand very, very quickly.

[skygazer]

54. I collected food stamps after my divorce

I hated it - I waited until I literally had one dollar in my pocket before I shamefacedly went to the Welfare department. I'd worked from the time I was 13 years old but I had 3 kids, the youngest was a baby, I had no child care and I couldn't find a job to save my life. I was desperate.

Despite the stories spread around by Republican slime, that's the usual story, not the exception. There are very few, if any, people who WANT to be on welfare. You don't get much, a subsistence really, and you get to endure the scorn of your fellow man every fucking time you go to the grocery store. It hurts that if you want to get a treat for your kids or something everyone else takes for granted (a bag of chips, a candy bar, soda), you know that the people behind you in line are judging you and finding you wanting because you're "wasting" their tax dollars on junk food. It's really hard to tell your kids "no" all the time.

Also contrary to popular opinion, the welfare department doesn't do a lot to help you get off the program. It takes a strong, determined person to negotiate the beaurocracy and find out what really is available - though there is a work requirement now, there's not a lot of help with child care which is the number one problem people on welfare (mostly single or divorced women with kids) have. A car is considered a "luxury item" and it's value counts against whatever your allottment is - I lived in a very rural area with no mass transportation. A car was a neccessity but because I had one, I got less. Because I got less, I had to spend more actual money on food since my food stamp allotment would run out (I fed my family on an average of $35 a week - I kept track of all my spending in a little notebook. If I dropped a penny down a drain, I'd make a not of it - "minus 1 cent").

Once you're poor, it's very hard to get un-poor. I eventually went to work on a road construction crew - it was the only way I could make enough money to pay my bills. Not everyone has that ability and believe me, after you've been in the system for just a short time, you lose a lot of your self-respect, your confidence and your assurance. It's really hard to break out of that cycle.

Please try to view these people with compassion. Chances are, they don't want to be collecting any more than I did. And try not to judge their purchases - when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, sometimes you need to buy the things that other people can buy all the time with no thought or concern.

[Shakespeare]

57. "those who need the crutch"

What telling language you use. It's not a "crutch," it's surviving. And they're absolutely entitled to it. Be thankful YOU are not in the position to need them.

Your anger is inappropriate and misplaced.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

58. You were angry because she much less than you would?

Or were you angry because your tax dollars go to the food stamp program? Or was it a combination of both?

I'm sorry about the flamefest you're getting. I think there are valuable lessons to be learned in your post which might help us to reunite the majority of people in this country. You've admitted your anger and pointed out that you recognize it as a human frailty. If we can pinpoint the reasons for your anger, it might help us to understand and communicate better with conservatives who rant about issues like the food stamp program.

[CarpeDiebold]

62. yeah i thought about this

that a conservative would have the same reaction for a moment but coudl never think about and escape his initial judgment.

i think it was just the shock of hearing those #'s($200 and $150 are big numbers for me). part of it is stereotyping that i've heard all my life, too. i think the only difference between what i thought and what a conservative thinks on a daily basis is that i have some other viewpoints/experiences to balance that first instinct and give me some reason to think it thru further. if i hadn't considered my previous conversations with people and the reasons i normally support social programs, i think i cuold have gotten stuck being angry all the time at thse welfare programs.

but i'm not sure, i'm just as confused as you are.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

105. So maybe what's really lacking in some conservatives' lives

is the compassion to understand the need for programs like this?
That certainly makes sense with the ultra-priviledged types like Dumbyass.

But I wonder about those who are poor themselves and refuse welfare and food stamps...if there are any people like that still around. There used to be. I can remember people talking about being too proud to take unemployment or welfare...not wanting to be viewed as "charity cases". Or maybe that was just hype created by opponents of social service programs.

[newsguyatl]

61. there was a woman in front of me

a couple weeks ago at the grocery store who used food stamps...

when i was done with paying for mine, i was walking out and saw her and her daughter and grandkids get into a brand new SUV.

*bites tongue*

[skygazer]

71. Did you see the registration?

Do you know it was hers?

[xmas74]

My point exactly

(see previous post)

[xmas74]

87. Could have borrowed the vehicle from someone.

I didn't have a car and had to receive food stamps a few years back(went back to school to try to make a better life for my family). I received a ride to the store for large items from a friend a couple of times a month. My friend had a brand-new Durango and I know I got some nasty looks from people.
Godd thing I had a friend who gave those nasty looks right back at them.

[SammyWinstonJack]

63. Way back when, I was on welfare, I received $187/mo and I had to buy

my food stamps. My rent was $87/ month ulitlities included. I had to buy my food stamps from the US Post Office. I think it was something like $15 for $65 worth! LOL, I was living high off the hog! :rofl: Welfare isn't a good thing! Trust me!

[Cats Against Frist]

65. Food stamps make me uncomfortable, too

All of welfare does, actually. And I have been the recipient of it, two times -- I had my son on the State of Washington's pregnancy medical dime, and was in the WIC program for four months. What makes me uncomfortable about it is the failure that it represents. I've never let myself off the hook for my dalliance with welfare -- there was nothing "excusable," about it -- I was a pot-smoking, lazy-ass drunk flaneur, with two college degrees, when I got knocked up.

When I was a kid, my daddy was a coal miner, and refusing to work for non-union mines put him out of work, quite a bit -- working bailing hay and cleaning up animal shit, under the table, to feed me and my brother. My mom has worked a full-time job since I was eight, kept an immaculate home, and saved, and now they both have pensions, investments, and are planning on camping out in a trailer, and traveling, for the rest of their lives. People like them, who see tough times, but keep on holding their heads up also pay for people to use food stamps.

In five years of social service work, I never met ONE family that was on welfare, due to their "best efforts" or "hard luck." Every single parent was either a drug addict, a fucking idiot, a lazy malcontent, or irresponsible with their loins. We, on the left, sometimes deify the poor, as if they are some kind of dust-bowl remniscent suffering peoples -- but every one of those fuckers had GAP or Tommy Hilfiger clothes, and had a cellphone. But what's bad isn't what they're extracting from society, it's what they do to, and how they treat their kids, by and large, that is the problem -- assuring that there will be many more people who lack the socialization skills to be anything other than an open CPS case, perpetual SSI recipients and victims of drug and alcohol abuse, molestation, poverty and neglect.

Food stamps are a symbol of failure. Not just of them, but all of us, to grow a healthy and holistic society, to hold unscrupulous holders of capital accountable, to refuse to distance ourselves from the Earth that provides for us, to care for one another, to live responsibly, to live by our supposed values, and to steward our society.

I'm sorry, but until you've walked into a crack house, where there is a baby sleeping in the crack of the couch, and seen a one-year-old girl with lead poisoning, seen an apartment complex full of kids shaved bald from lice and listened to a little girl tell about her molestation experiences, seen numerous children on nebulizers, shifted from foster home to foster home, you just don't know. Then, to walk out and see an endless parade of fat people in giant cars, all the advertisements and waste, to experience the Bush administration, to see how the middle class is just a different breed of lazy and stupid -- makes you have sympathy for no one. It just makes you disgusted. The poor deserve no more sympathy than the rest -- and the rest deserve no sympathy at all.

Sorry for being such a downer.

[Rabrrrrrr]

68. Wow!

Thanks for all that! I, too, believe food stamps are a sign of failure. Not that people don't deserve to eat, but htat if our society was made properly, we wouldn't need them at all.

[Misunderestimator]

81. But our society is not made properly.

That's pretty damn obvious. Therefore we need safety nets. Too bad that people resent them so much.

[Rabrrrrrr]

91. When I said a sign of failure, I meant of the society, not the person.

Just want to clarify that in case you thought that's what I meant.

And no, our society is not made properly, which is sad. So until we fix it, the safety nets are needed.

[Misunderestimator]

95. Of course I know that's what you meant.

Society has failed the poor. Exactly why we need the safety nets. For someone to react negatively to that... while UNDERSTANDING that all they are buying is necessities... and then to post this crap here expecting not to be called on it... that's the issue I have with it. I'm glad you agree that safety nets are needed. Now we obviously need to work on our compassion and understanding for those not fortunate enough to afford the basic necessities. The OP did not seem very compassionate to me... it seemed rather selfish actually.

[Rabrrrrrr]

100. And I think he recognized very clearly that his reaction

was selfish - or at least, he recognized that he reacted in a way that he wished he didn't.

And once someone realizes that they have erred, then it's time for compassion, not heaping coals on the fire.

At least, if we want healthy discourse.

[Misunderestimator]

106. Foodstamps have been around for a long time...

I think it's pretty telling that someone would be furious to see them being used for exactly what they were intended.

[Gormy Cuss]

115. poor = "those fuckers?"

I'm glad you're out of social service work. Burnout is common and too few recognize that it's time to get out of social service work when you start categorizing all the clients as lazy malcontents and fuckers.

Deifying the poor may be wrong, but so is demonizing them.

[Cats Against Frist]

118. I was speaking specifically of my clients

not the poor, in general. I have little sympathy for 19-year-old kids who lay on the couch all day, and beat their moms, or little kids running around with Borax on them, or who have three kids who live in squallor and spend their EIC on a new stereo system, or babies sleeping in the cracks of couches, or a 19-year-old bitch who slaps her son across the face because he asks for a drink of water, or the myriad faceless young walking pricks who have three kids by different moms, and calls the moms his "bitches." And ALL of them were on welfare, but, somehow managed to scrounge up enough cash to buy crack, cigarettes, alcohol, name-brand clothes and cell phones. These people are not being demonized because they're poor, they're being demonized, by me, because they're assholes.

I know that these people do not represent the majority of the poor, or the people on welfare, but I have no sympathy for my clients -- only the children. I get to decide whether or not, then, if I'm going to treat the grown ups as if they're just overgrown children. I don't feel much like being an elitist -- I prefer to treat them as equals and scorn them. They all know better -- anything else is just an excuse.

Like I said, when I was on pregnancy medical, I got there, because I liked to spend my days playing pool and smoking weed and doing whippets in my flophouse home. People who work hard for the same shitty employers that many people can't bring themselves to work for, paid my way. I still feel guilty about it, to this day.

And, on edit: I would like to remind you that I feel every bit of, if not more contempt for the broad middle class.

[Gormy Cuss]

123. Understood.

Ask me about the burnout social service workers who treated the KIDS like they were dirt under their feet. If you want to guarantee their failure, have the social workers, caseworkers, and educational counselors confuse parental and child responsibilities. As I said, too few recognize that they are burnt out and it's time to move on.
I know you weren't condemning all the poor.

[foreigncorrespondent]

131. Well now you can say you have indirectly met someone...

...on welfare, who is not a drug addict, or boozer. But rather someone who works in the security industry who lost her job last year, and due to the fact the security laws are changing here had to upgrade her licence through a course before being able to get another job. Now I have done that, and am on the look out for a job again. Not that I ever stopped looking for work, just no one would look at me when I would state I am level 2 and the requirement is now level 3.

Now if you want to tell me (someone who has had to deal with a lot of street kids smashed off their heads on crack) that the majority of people on welfare are addicts, then come see me, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. After all not all poor people are welfare queens, or addicts.

Unreal!

[SoCalDem]

67. That woman might have the same reaction if she saw your home or your check

:evilgrin:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

107. Touche

[UncleSepp]

129. That's actually a really good point

I'll admit to having an instantaneous reaction of anger looking at people who were spending money frivolously on expensive junk when I was living on potatoes and cabbage. Not every bit of wealth is ill-gotten, and how did I know that the person "flaunting their wealth" wasn't also using it to help others? I still have to resist the urge to flip off limousines, even though I know darn good and well that the ones I see during the day are as cheap to take from the airport as a taxicab and are actually a reasonable substitute for a rented minivan.

Good on the OP for being aware enough to observe the snap reaction and bold enough to admit it and deal with it instead of justifying it.

[Ariana Celeste]

72. It's good you were able to work through the intial reaction

And it's just too bad that after sharing it, people had to jump all over you without reading all that you had to say.

I think it's pretty common to feel that way. The important part is thinking about it and realizing that it's a needed program.

I knew a family personally who took advantage of the system. For a lot of people, that would turn them completely against the program. Personally, I just hate the fact that we are supposedly the greatest country in the world and yet... we have so many citizens that need this much help.

Other than that family, my only other experience with welfare is medical coupons. My mom worked full time and could cover everything but medical insurance for me and my brother. So as ashamed as she was, she went to apply for medical coupons. It kept me on birth control through my teens and made it possible for my brother and I to get checkups, and fortunately we were lucky enough not to have any medical emergencies at that point of time.

While there may be many who abuse the system, there are far more that really do need it.

Thanks for being honest, and I'm glad that you understand that we need to help these people. Anytime I see someone in line ahead of me paying with food stamps, they look uncomfortable and ashamed. I give them a smile everytime. I may have never been where they are at, but I've needed govt. assistance, too.

:hi:

[Cobalt Violet]

73. Damn them Walmart and Supercuts employees!

If only they got a job actually paid enough that they didn't qualify for food stamps.

[Misunderestimator]

77. What? Do you have a job? Can you afford to feed your family?

You admit that she's not abusing the program, so I'm curious why you're being judgmental.

[Rabrrrrrr]

84. He's not being judgmental at all. In fact, there's nothing in his post

that casts judgment on anyone: except himself.

And to me, that's pretty noble and worth applauding, not villifying and accusing.

[Misunderestimator]

88. Sorry Rabrrrrrr but I don't see that...

What I see is this:

because of food stamps. i'm pissed as @#$% qualified by some rudimentary understanding and then this at the end: my first reaction is f-ing furious.

I understand that it's noble to admit one's prejudice, but to start it out by villifying the very people you are admitting you are prejudiced against... and then ending the OP with the same prejudice... smacks of insincerity to me.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Rabrrrrrr]

98. Well, there is a period in there.

It's not "because of food stamps i'm pissed as @#$%"

It's

...because of food stamps.

i'm pissed as @#$%....


I don't think he villified at all - he's talking about feelings, not making accusations. he never villified the person using the food stamps, nor villified the system, nor made a general villification of food stamps or of the food stamp system. He did, in fact, come down in support of it.

He's only being honest about his emotional response and saying to the world, "Wow - I had this reaction, and it surprises me. I'm not happy that I had that response, because I know I was in the wrong."

Give the guy some credit.

I thank the stars that I have people in my life that I can go to and say, "Wow - I had this reaction, and I'm really upset with myself. Can you empathize with me, and help me explore what might have been happening with me to have that reaction that surprises me?" And I thank God for that, because unfortuntely, the vast majority of people are far more concerned with hurling boulders of contempt than offering an empathetic hand around certain issues.

but perhaps this is why there are far more policemen, rightwing fucknuts, and pharisees than chaplains.

[Misunderestimator]

102. The period makes a difference to you?

I find his post exceedingly insensitive. It almost seems as if he adds the qualifications to ensure that he comes across as compassionate or honest. That's my reading of it. If he had said "Wow - I had this reaction, and it surprises me. I'm not happy that I had that response, because I know I was in the wrong" I would have had an entirely different reaction.

As for having people in your life that you can be honest with about these sorts of things... great. But posting it in public... that's entirely different.

The only contempt I see in this thread is from the OP himself. It almost seems designed to be a flamewar. Hmmm... brilliant.

[foreigncorrespondent]

133. The way you are reading it...

...is the exact same way I read it.

Hats of to you for the words you have spoken in here. Good job, woman!!! :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

139. But that is what he said - perhaps not as well as it could have been said,

but I sure had no problem seeing it.

Maybe I'm in the minority, maybe it's because of my training as a chaplain, but I am not at all willing to condemn someone because of a goddamn FEELING or EMOTION, especially one that they did not act on.

Perhaps you ARE willing to do so. I don't know. If you are, then we are different, and then of course our response will be different.

As far as I am concerned, emotions and feelings are NEVER WRONG. NEVER. Emotions and feelings are part of being human; the only thing that can be condemned is HOW WE ACT.

In my opinion.

And I don't think he designed this to be a flamewar at all - but as I predicted, it immediately became one, and as I predicted, it became one because people see "food stamps" and "anger", and immediately decide to fuck off on actually reading what the poster said and just decide that the poster is an insensitive fuckall clueless piece of shit freeper republican asshole who isn't even worth wasting the time kicking to death, and better left to just die of his own bile while spewing hate and bigoted perjoratives on him.

Well I say, fuck that.

Never did he say "I hate welfare people", or "Food stamp people suck" or anything that is even REMOTELY - I repeat, NOT EVEN REMOTELY - derogatory to people on food stamps.

As I said before, the only person that he made any accusations against was himself, and that was because he didn't like his emotional response, to which he fully admitted.

Of the posters in this thread, about 90% of them I hope to hell they aren't therapists, because they are more interested in finding fault and casting judgment than they are in listening, understanding, hacving compassion, or helping. I truly hope to God none of you are therapists, psychologists, or chaplains.

[Misunderestimator]

149. Post #138 says it better than I have.

I could have predicted that this would become a flamewar too... it was obviously designed to be. Why you are taking this so personally is beyond me. It's not about finding fault... it's about questioning why he feels the need to insult this person even while admitting that she is not at fault. I think you can understand this... but I think this has also struck some odd nerve in you. Fortunately for me... I'm not a therapist, psychologist or (god forbid) chaplain. But it has nothing to do with my empathy for that woman using food stamps.

And on edit.. I have read every word of this OP's in this thread. And it does not change my opinion that this was designed to inflame.

[fishwax]

89. your anger makes no sense to me

honestly, she was buying basic supplies for a big family with food stamps? Should she only buy ten dollars worth of groceries at a time?

[Ariana Celeste]

94. he admitted upthread a bit that it

didnt make sense to him either

I think it's a pretty common reaction, the difference is he saw through it (unlike conservatives) and it bothered him to feel that way

[Misunderestimator]

96. And I will admit that my reaction is based on the body of this OP's

posts... and not just this one. :shrug:

[Ariana Celeste]

101. I'm not familiar with his other posts

I've been (for the most part) gone for awhile... maybe we are just seeing this differently

I just don't think any emotion is wrong... it's what you do about it and the understanding that you come to afterwards that counts. (imo)

[fishwax]

108. the OP was firmly present tense

It didn't say something like "I felt this way at first, and have been thinking about it, and I now disavow that reaction and would like to explore why I felt that way." It was present tense all the way.

I know he's elsewhere said that it makes him support the program even more, and that's cool.

[Redstone]

93. Well, I'm just about that angry at YOU right about now.

The whole fucking idea of food stamps, in case you haven't heard, is for people who are poor to be able to buy, as you said, basic stuff.

So what's your fucking problem? I like the idea that my taxes are being used to help out people who are less fortunate. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

I don't think I respect you very much anymore. In fact, I'm sure of it.

Redstone

On edit: I've read your backtracking / explanatory posts, and am not quite as angry as I was at first. (And yes, I did read your OP thoroughly, and re-read it, and it still comes through as being mean-spirited.) You need, and I mean you REALLY need, to choose your words more carefully. Take this advice from someone who has posted things he wished he hadn't.

Think. Then post. OK?

[no name no slogan]

97. Doesn't sound like food stamps to me

I work in a state department of human services (aka "welfare"), which is where most programs (even the federal ones) are administered, so I have a little background on this.

First off, are you sure they were "food stamps"? Almost all states have eliminated the physical food stamps and now use an electronic benefit/EBT system, which works like a debit card-- much easier, much less stigmatizing, and also a lot cheaper than printing off and sending out paper coupons each month.

Second, food stamps do NOT provide discounts. Although they techinically don't have any cash value, they are exchanged 1:1 like dollars.

It sounds like this woman may have been using manufacturers coupons, or was using another food subsidy program of some sort-- but definitely NOT food stamps.

[0007]

104. What the fuck? Why do you think she was trying to cheat?

When you have no idea?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. Try working at a 67% discount and feeding your family

That'll really get ya pissed

[tjdee]

110. How's that skin off your back? I mean, really? Why fury of all things?

I almost went on welfare once, but did not go through with it. It is the single most soul sucking moment of my life. I was treated like a drug addict/irresponsible/stupid/dirty whatever, and after a few minutes I said fuck this, and left.

I don't understand fury, I really don't. Someone on welfare IS NOT in a good place. Financially, mentally, whatever. For your first impulse to be anger is kind of screwy. I can appreciate your honesty about it, but get a grip, LOL. They're not hurting you. They're not wasting billions of dollars in Iraq. They're not corporations receiving millions back in corporate welfare.

This is just a lady with a big family who needs help right now to make ends meet. Geez.

on edit: I did read that you were uncomfortable to be angry. I think that discomfort means you are a good person--I'm just still bewildered at how you got to fury in the first place.

[Spacemom]

120. I'm confused

about why it's being called a "discount?"

Food stamps work just like regular dollars, except they can only be used for food. She's not paying $1 for a $4 dollar item. She pays full price for whatever she buys, it's simply in food stamps instead of dollars.

[pitohui]

121. you didn't see her pay for toilet paper

something's wrong, she has to pay her own money for paper goods

[Nikia]

122. Knowing working poor on food stamps

There is nothing to envy. The food stamps allow them to choose to eat even if their car needs to be fixed to be safe or even to run, they were very sick and had to go to the doctor or miss a day of their low paid job, they break their eye glasses and need to pay for a replacement, or their child has to go on a required $10 field trip. Do you think that the poor should have to worry about where their next meal is coming from?
Interestingly when my teenage cousin worked for a grocery store, she had the same reaction even though she had been a WIC baby. I think that it had something to do with wanting to leave Appalachia and believing that all "those people" were not her people even though she grew up there. She goes to college in Michigan now.

[lildreamer316]

125. I have a solution for you.

Couponing.
See here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=353x16
also check out other threads in the group for hints...

[foreigncorrespondent]

126. How cold and callous of you!

Just yesterday I had to accept a Western Union wire transfer from my partner in the U.S. because I really had no food in the house. I would give anything to have food stamps right about now. Those would really save the embarrassment of having to receive money from someone who herself is not employed and having financial difficulty.

I lost my job last year and am currently living on $430 a fortnight in welfare payments. I share a place with my mum, but still have to come up with the money to pay my share of the rent, and the bills. Still my mother (who has a casual/part time job) would buy food, and buy me luxury things like shampoo and conditioner. Now it is the holiday season and my mum's place of employment closed down for three weeks. Because she is casual she doesn't get any form of holiday pay. So for the last two weeks we have been living off her last wage, plus my unemployment benefits. Well the money ran out.

You have absolutely no right to judge another person without knowing their situation which lead them to needing the food stamps, nor do you have the right to be fucking pissed off because a family needs that in order to survive. Shit when I was a kid growing up mum supported my sister and I on her pittance of a widows pension cheque. There were weeks that we would ultimately go three or more days without a thing to eat. I even recall one Christmas watching all these wonderful happy Christmas movies on TV all the while not having a fucking thing to eat or a gift to open.

How dare you be so cold and callous. I thought that was a republican thing to do. Mistake on my part.

[Misunderestimator]

132. Good post!

And I'm sorry that you're in the position you're in. When I see people using food stamps... My first reaction is to be very glad that I am not in their position, that I am fortunate enough not to have to use food stamps to buy necessities. My second reaction is guilt that my first reaction is self-centered. My third reaction is to treat that person with the utmost respect because I know how humiliating it would be to be judged and how humiliating it would be to feel I would have to explain myself to someone assuming that I am getting some sort of fucking discount.

[foreigncorrespondent]

134. Thank you!!!

Don't worry about your reactions, hon. Those ARE natural human reactions. We first experience the "thank God I am not in that boat" then the guilt for having that reaction, then the wanting to do what ever possible to treat that person with respect. I went through it a lot when I working security at a local mall last year. Especially with two women my partner and I had to arrest for shop lifting. I felt so bad for them. Even after they attacked both my partner and I. And the fact that both were stoned off their tree, and continued doing drugs in our office.

[Misunderestimator]

135. Thanks for that... and for your post above.

:)

[Rabrrrrrr]

142. I thought the republican thing to do was to perform eisegesis.

I didn't know that having an emotional response and being honest about it, and accusing oneself for it, was a "cold and callous" thing.

What a weird world we live in.

I really thought that only republicans, rightwing Christian assholes, the Taliban, and other fundy religions are willing to condemn a person for their emotions.

Apparently the liberal Taliban (a group I have been dealing with for a good 15 years so far) continues to be alive and active as well.

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

144. LOL! Comparing liberals here to republicans....

because they object to someone judging a person for using foodstamps? That's rich. Not just republicans, but rightwing fanatics and the taliban... WOW... you must be pissed. Did you even read HER post? Or are you just knee-jerking now?

[foreigncorrespondent]

145. Whatever. n/t

[B Calm]

128. How much an hour do you make? Blame the cheap labor cons!

[Montauk6]

136. Here's a remedy for you

Think of all the lavish cocktail parties on huge yachts that get funded by you and me via tax write-offs. When you stew in that for a while, take it from me, that Charmin will seem pretty harmless.

My target of vitriol du jour are taxpayer subsidized sports stadiums with all those luxurious suites that said average taxpayer will probably never get a chance to experience.

[LincolnMcGrath]

137. Trade Places With Her! Do It NOW.

[Thtwudbeme]

138. I read every one of your posts in this thread

so, please don't tell me to go back and re-read them.

I am not shocked that you were initially mad; I am not even shocked that you were nosy enough to notice what this person was buying (it was...quit looking...it's none of your business...that's why the magazines are there--read them.)

What I am shocked at was that you had time to go home, put your ice cream away, fix a drink, or smoke a cig...whatever you do----walk to the computer...and then post.

Still mad.

Still angry. Figure out the discount. 67% in case none of us could figure that out without your calculations.

Now that you know this about yourself, what are you going to do with the new information in your head? Stay mad? Think about your taxes? It's January after all.

You better decide right now what you believe in.

I hope you choose wisely.

Stephanie

[tuvor]

140. You "think it's a good program" yet you're "pissed as @#$%". O-kayyyyyyyy.

Campaign against the program then. Oh, wait a minute, it's a good program. But wait. You're fucking furious. But wait. She wasn't abusing the program.

Gather up one consistent thought, then come back here and try again. Or sign up and post at the site that dare not be mentioned. I think they're more in synch with whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say here.

[Thtwudbeme]

141. Furious at what? Her or the system that fucks people?

Read this:

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051224/NEWS01/51223046

I still don't get what you'd be furious at...the people who are driven to dispare and food aid or the fuckwit Capitalist system that makes it all possible?

[Rabrrrrrr]

143. Well, hate to leave you alone, CarpeDiebold, but I'm outta here

Too much ignorant bile, unncessary hatred, and stupidity being spewed in this thread.

It's awful in here, and the myopia and the INTENSE need to condemn and tear you down is too maddening for me to continue in this.

I don't know what's up people's asses tonight, but it's huge and it's fucking ugly.

[Misunderestimator]

146. Yep... ignorant bile...

in the OP. It's fucking ugly indeed.

[foreigncorrespondent]

148. Brava!!!!

You go girl!!!!

:toast: :thumbsup: :headbang: :yourock:

[foreigncorrespondent]

150. Awwwww Rabrrrrrr....

...hate to inform you about this, but looks like your little mate left you holding the bag ages ago. All the while deciding to go begin a Rabrrrrrr appreciation thread. Go figure!

[tuvor]

153. "What's up people's asses"?

At best, a very poorly-written OP.

[samplegirl]

147. I've only got one thing to say

be glad its not you.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

152. I don't blame you for thinking that way!!!

Let the flaming begin :sarcasm:

Myself personally get mad when I see someone abuse the system, by paying with EBT and then you see them pull away in the parking in a $40K vehicle. My sister has a EX sister-in-law who is the EBT Queen, popping out babies every 9 months people like this girl shouldn't be able to continue to receive any additional funds for each baby she has. I may come off as an ass on this post to some people, but I do think these programs do alot a good. I just don't like frauds taking away money from people who might really need it. I've know people who have applied and they really need or could use the help greatly, and be declined because of frauds sucking the money away.

[foreigncorrespondent]

154. I have no problem...

...with someone getting angry at someone who is obviously milking the system. What pissed me off with the OP is simply the person he got pissed with was doing the right thing and not milking the system.

We are meant to be good little lefties here. If we are going to get angry at people using food stamps, then that anger should be directed at those who deserve it, not those who truly need the food stamps to survive. Doing the latter make us more appear more repuke like, and well if that is what the left is becoming, then I am ashamed to call myself a leftie.

[Midlodemocrat]

155. Locking

At OP's request.

'night all.