Would you stay in a loveless marriage just for the kids?

[RetroLounge]

Our 2 kids are young (5 & 7) and this will mess them up, and already has affected them way more than I had thought.

Can you survive and stay sane in a marriage where you are merely a roommate who pays most of the bills, cooks some, cleans some and is an active father to our 2 kids?

:shrug:

RL

on edit: I do NOT base my life decisions on lounge polls. But they are interesting...

[datasuspect]

1. which parent is the drunk?

hopefully not both.

the non drunk should leave with the kids post haste.

[RetroLounge]

3. No active drunks in this family.

RL

[BlueIris]

88. The "non drunk" should also remember to get therapy for him/herself.

After he/she has left with the kids, post haste. I hope everyone knows that the non-drunk who married the drunk has some issues he or she needs to work out before he or she can be sure s/he a) isn't going to marry a new drunk/new non-recovering "dry" drunk and b) won't still be behaving as if s/he is still married to a drunk, even if the non-drunk is single. We have an addiction/recovery group here, all. Just sayin'.

[Shell Beau]

2. The DU lounge slut is sounding like a pretty good

option right about now!



Seriously, do what is in your heart! :hug:

[Ellen Forradalom]

4. You'll only really know the answer to that

after a few months of counselling, when your initial feelings have calmed a bit and you've had a chance to talk them out in a safe setting.

On edit: Don't rely on the Lounge for the answer. What you'll see is a Gallery of Personal Issues which are only tangentially related to yours.

[bicentennial_baby]

5. knowing what i know about your particular situation...

i have to say that i think it might be wise to consider the split, b/c the current situation is toxic for all of you. i don't know that counseling is going to do the trick at this point, but i do know that it can't continue on as it is indefinitely without some action on either of your parts....it sucks, but it may be you that has to take that first step... :hug:

[Whoa_Nelly]

46. Counseling for yourself as you sort out how to go about this

could be a good idea. Divorce always affects the kids no matter what the age, and some ages are more greatly affected by divorce than others.

Hope you find answers for yourself and your kids. :hug:

[bertha katzenengel]

6. for me: i'd stay because i made the committment...

not just for the kids. But that's ME and I don't expect anyone to apply my experience to their own lives.

:hug:

[leftofthedial]

7. I stayed in a loveless marriage for 10 years

at first, to fight for "love" (what a delusional idiot I was, eh?)

then for the sakes of the kids (now 12 and 17)

Totally wrong move. I'm afraid we set a piss poor example for our kids of what a partnership between two loving people can and should be

Plus, the financial and emotional toll is staggering and gets worse the longer you put it off.

[GOPisEvil]

8. This is a generic answer, as only you know your own situation.

Your own happiness affects that of your children. It might be better for their long-term well-being and yours that you and your wife be happy. The unhappiness in your relationship will spill over to your kids.

I really do wish you well. Neither choice is particularly appealing.

[eyesroll]

9. I'm sorry it's come to this, Retro.

:hug:

For what it's worth, my SO and his ex are way better parents to their little one (3) than they would be if they still lived together. (They get along really well right now -- so well that we all, even me, had Christmas dinner together -- but they fight nearly constantly when they're near each other for long periods of time.)

My own experience didn't include kids, but the Ex Mr. Eyesroll (he's been calling me the "Ex Mrs. Hedges" for awhile so I think turnabout is fair) and I are both better off (and better friends to each other, I think) apart.

[wildhorses]

10. RL....my heart goes out for you

can not vote...just simply can't...wanted to vote for the praying one

still having watched my parents stay in it "for the kids" and then divorce after 38 years of marriage...

kids heal quicker than adults...it could have been a distant memory but NO it has to be in the NOW

it sucks at any age

but you have to be true to yourself otherwise your kids will have a liar for a parent...

[lizziegrace]

11. Stayed 14 years too long

I left when my daughter was a freshman in HS. I see now the effect it's having on her, emotionally. It's also having a huge effect on how she relates (not well) to men. I wish I'd left when she was much younger. Maybe she'd have adjusted better. :shrug:

Please PM me if you want to talk.

:hug:

[LynzM]

12. From a divorced kid's perspective....

Staying together 'for the sake of the kids' when you don't even like each other sets a bad example, and does some funky stuff to the kids, emotionally. If you've tried to the point where you feel it's not going to work, don't prolong or drag it out. Two separate, content parents is much preferrable to two parents who live in the same house but are miserable doing it. Hugs to you, RL :hug:

[LaraMN]

24. From a non-divorced kid's perspective...

There's nothing like growing up in a house where you know the two people you love the most are and will always be miserable. Conventional wisdom suggests that children of divorce often blame themselves for their parent's split. Well, when two people stay together for the kids, despite there being no kind feelings between them, those children may be left feeling that they are to blame for their parents' lives of misery. That's a heavy load to bear; knowing that two people gave up any hope of happiness all for you. What if you end up unhappy? Then their sacrifices were for nothing and you wasted THEIR lives. It can also make it very hard for such a child to discern what a "real" marriage is supposed to be when they grow up, and what kind of "love," if any, is supposed to exist in that relationship, with no healthy basis for comparison. I'm agreeing with Lynz, here, of course.

[rucky]

13. Have you tried counseling?

it helps.

[RetroLounge]

14. starts later this month

RL

[rucky]

15. Hang in there!

And give it at least 6 months before you make any decisions (either way).

[Burma Jones]

16. Leave, but don't go too far

When my folks split, Mom moved half way across the country and out of our lives. She's tried to weasel her way back in, now that there's Grandchildren. But, the woman that married our Dad, straightened us all out with great patience, and added twin boys to the family has the coveted title of "Grandma"

So, make sure you're close by and make sure you take care of the kids first, for their sake and yours......

[rbnyc]

17. Loveless...

...I don't think I would stay.

Difficult? With problems? Yes, I am staying in a difficult, problematic marriage, because there is a lot of love there, a lot of will for things to work out, and a great chance that things will get better.

I want my son to have a mommy and daddy who are married and love each other.

But I don't want to teach my son to learn to live without love.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. As the 35 year old daughter of parents who are just splitting up now,

after 40 years of marriage, I have this to say:

My childhood, and my life now, would have been more joyous if they had split up when I was five...which is when their problems began. I can't tell you how many nights I went to sleep feeling insecure and upset...how many times their arguments cut me to the core.

Please do what you feel you must...but sometimes staying together for the sake of the kids harms them more than protects them. My heart hurts for you. :hug:

[Corgigal]

19. I left

had two small children. Best damn thing I ever did. They lived with their Dad for awhile and now both live with me. The youngest will be attending college in the fall. The kids all like their step Dad and believe he does more for them then their real Dad did. My husband and I had two children together so we have a large blended family. Get this, on most days all these kids get along.

It hurts, it hurts bad but here I sit 15 years later and I'm happy I did it.

Good luck to you.

[AlCzervik]

20. Good luck with the counseling, it may help your split be more

friendly. Staying together for the kids is a bad idea imo, my parents did that for a few years and it was awful. Better to have you separate and happy than together and miserable. Children pick up the vibe.

[xmas74]

21. Get out while you can.

An ex many years ago was raised in a home where the parents were together "for the sake of the kids". He always claimed that it messed him up worse than if his mother or father had chosen to leave.
They'll know that you are unhappy and will blame themselves for it. Go through a separation and get therapy for the whole family.

[rpgamerd00d]

22. I got divorced for the sake of my daughter, so I know first hand

Living in a relationship where both parents are miserable will DRAMATICALLY affect the behavior and life experiences of the children. It is FAR FAR FAR FAR better for them to have two happy and separate parents than 2 miserable cohabitated ones. Its not even remotely up for debate. If the marriage is irreconcilable, move out immediately and get a divorce. The physical annoyance of visitations and schedules is MORE THAN tolerable for kids. They get used to visiting almost immediately.

My experienced, "been there, done that", 2 cents.

[evlbstrd]

23. No.

No no no no no.

[Blue Diadem]

25. I can't answer your poll

All I can offer is a hug :hug:

[tigereye]

26. talk it out with someone and decide what is best for everyone

best to you all.

[mopinko]

27. i once heard kurt vonnegut say-

divorcing someone because you don't love them any more is like trading in your car because the ashtray is full. now, if trust is gone, then, it is over.
i think i have been on every side of this- my parents should have divorced- my dad was a drunk. i did divorce my first husband, and raised our miserable child alone. now, i have been married for 24 years, have 4 kids, and it has been a tough row to hoe for most of that time.
so, here is what i think- in spite of the damage that my father caused, my mother gave us a shining example of commitment and family. in spite of everything, if she had kicked him out, he would have died in the gutter. she just couldn't live with that. although there were a couple of short marriages, all 7 of us grew up to have long marriages, and (mostly) sane, successful kids.
my first divorce was a good thing. it was a short, stupid marriage. he grew up to be a republican, and i still shake my head about the whole thing. it left a big scar on the kid, although a lot of that was from my struggles to raise a kid on a woman's wages.
my current one, tho, is a lesson. we have been locked in a stupid power struggle for the whole time we have been together. for the last couple of years, we were on the brink of a divorce. in fact, this summer we were separated for a couple of weeks. but here's the thing- he was sleep deprived all along, from apnea. he has a growth on one tonsil that was making it worse. he got more suspicious, more defensive, more untrusting, as well as other physical signs- headaches, falling asleep on the train, flopping and kicking in his sleep. we tried couples therapy, and it was so incredibly awful. we did both finally start going to individual therapy. but in the meantime, i figured out what was happening, dragged him to the doctor, helped him get some sleep, and i cannot tell you how happy we are.
he came home one day and said- i am not afraid of you any more. boom. whole different relationship. i had some problems, also. i have fibromyalgia, and finally got some good treatment. so i was a little in the same, worn down, cranky mind set. so, that helped a lot also.
so, what i am trying to say is, what really matters is trust. if you do not have that, strive for it. i was really amazed at the way love blossomed when we found that trust. it was always there. it was just buried. i can't even guess what path you might take. but if you can find it, it will be worth it.

[RetroLounge]

29. Yes, Trust is the big issue here, I think.

RL

[mopinko]

41. i was shocked

to see what an impact it had. it was not even something that i had thought about. but in hindsight, i was that it was ALL.

[RevCheesehead]

49. Trust and Love

is the issue. They are not mutually exclusive.

Sweetie, go ahead and get different perspectives, if it helps. But ultimately, you're going to have to trust and love YOURSELF, before you can expect that from her.

You don't need to find solutions right now - time is your friend.
(and so am I)

:hug:

[AngryAmish]

28. Stay

Divorce screws kids up but good. It is a noble thng to do. Remember that romantic "love" is a fairly recent invention.

As long as the spouse is not a bad person. If s/he will let you live a fairly happy second life then things should be cool.

[redqueen]

34. What does this mean?

"If s/he will let you live a fairly happy second life then things should be cool."

[AngryAmish]

51. Not get p.o.ed when you have a discrete lover

[redqueen]

52. Ah, the old fashioned way, huh?

[AngryAmish]

53. oh, yeah

Just easier that way. Wait until the kids are out of college. It is also easier if you send the kids to boarding school and summer camp because you and your spouse will have to fake it for shorter periods of time.

[redqueen]

54. Sounds horrible...

but I wanted to ask... what makes you say that divorce screws kids up but good? From the research I've done, it seems only 10% of children from divorced parents have problems as a result.

[AngryAmish]

64. Pure anecdotal evidence

Your actual "research" may somehow be superior to my suppositions, prejudices and crazy guesses. But who believes in finding out real answers when glib speculation works just as well?

[Shakespeare]

57. What utter bullshit. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

96. That's what I was going to say

Romantic love is something of a canard, and a construct that is fairly new. As long as the two people can be responsible, loving parents, keep paying the bills, and have some good times -- then I think the issue of "love," as in Danielle Steele, is a non-issue.

If the two people, however, cannot cohabitate with ANY sense of harmony, then they should probably split -- but, let me ask -- if two grown-ups cannot come to a communicative, mutually respectful understanding, then what right do they have to be trying to raise kids? They're kids, themselves.

As for deeper, more dysfunctional problems, alcoholism, drug abuse, physical abuse, etc., it's obvious that getting the child out of that situation is a good thing. However, sometimes these things are borderline, and not so clearly cut.

I understand perfectly about what AA is speaking -- it's the arrangement that I have. I wouldn't say my second life is totally hopping, at the moment, but I haven't really been interested in pursuing anything, since I'm working on my poems and raising my son.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

30. My thoughts, prayers, best wishes, positive vibes and hugs to you RL

:hug: :hug:

No advice to offer, just hugs

[SeattleGirl]

31. I left

It wasn't exactly loveless, but it was an angry marriage, lots of fighting, etc. My daughter was only two when we split, and yes, she went through a bad period of time after it happened. But her dad and I, despite our anger, were totally committed to our daughter, and did what we could to help her. She's a young woman now, and is a fabulous person, very loving, very caring. And he and I are fine too -- we still have contact with each other. (And yes, we did do counseling.)

As others have said, ultimately it's up to you, but I just know that in my situation, getting out was for the best. I hope for the best for all of you, RL. :hug:

[hfojvt]

32. at least until I got another girlfriend

but divorce seems to offer men the worst of both worlds. Still paying the bills, only now just seeing the kids on weekends, and paying for two homes. Plus, the wonderful possibility of serial step-dads of varying quality. Now, if you could get custody, all bets would be off.
Being an active father and getting some help with cooking and cleaning seems to me like a consummation devoutly to be wished for. I might even try to re-court the woman. I still have benevolent thoughts towards all my ex-'girlfriends'.

[redqueen]

35. An awful lot of assumptions there. n/t

[hfojvt]

55. of course, but I consider them more or less warranted assumptions

or I like to look at a worst case scenario.
Perhaps there are worse scenarios involved in staying. Some assumptions might be there because I remember things from previous posts, and some might be there because I am not aware of other previous posts.

[redqueen]

59. Well maybe not a lot... just one big one.

You really believe in this day and age that in most divorces it's the male who is financially secure, and that he pays for two houses?

[hfojvt]

60. well that would not be an assumption

just ignorance of current statistics. My BiL kept their house, but he also paid to support my sister and their kids, not the other way around. I cannot say whether that is the norm.

[redqueen]

62. But

if you're ignorant of current statistics, isn't posing such a one-sided example as being the rule clearly an assumption?

[Xithras]

33. Depends. What's the actual dynamic here?

If you're merely indifferent, then yes I'd stay. Most relationships hit dull patches, sometimes lasting years, and I don't consider a dull and uninteresting marriage to be reason enough to split up. A marriage that's merely indifferent is unfortunate, but it isn't negative and it's certainly repairable.

If you are actually resentful, fighting, or abusive to each other, then you're better off getting out now. You DO have a negative relationship in that situation, and the odds of fixing a marriage like that are slim (still, try first).

Divorce harms kids. Every single study ever done on the issue has shown that children from divorced homes don't do as well as children from two parent homes academically, that they're more likely to participate in risky behavior, and that they're far more likely tob e emotionally distant with the noncustodial parent. The question you have to answer is this: Will staying in the marriage be even MORE damaging than leaving it?

[imperialismispasse]

42. I agree with this comment

[Nikia]

75. I agree

That is the question.
For me personally, I got the worst of possible worlds. My parents divorced when I was three. My parents fought, but my mother fought with every single boyfriend and then husband that she had. They continued to fight and use us as messengers throughout my childhood. My parents dating many differnet people who I all met was difficult. The man that my mother did marry was abusive to my sister and I. My step mother was alright but seemed to be jealous of my sister and I and got involved with the fights between my dad and mother.
Luckily, I did have grandparents who we spent a lot of time with otherwise I would have wanted nothing to do with love. I wouldn't characterize their relationship as passionatly in love though.

[redqueen]

36. I have for a long time.

Good luck, RL.

:pals:

[Tsiyu]

37. Self-delete

Posting under mom's SN again, dang it.

[antigone382]

38. What would you have your kids do (as adults) if they faced this situation?

You're supposed to set an example for your kids, right? Would you want them to stay in an unhappy marriage for the sake of their children, or would you want them to leave and try to make a better life for themselves? I don't know enough about your situation to conclusively respond to your poll, but this is my conditional advice: if your marriage is truly loveless, as you say it is, and if there is insufficient hope and/or desire to fix things, I would recommend moving on with your life.

In my opinion, the younger kids are when their parents first split, the better it is for them. My parents divorced when I was about two, so I don't really have many memories of them together. Their divorce didn't affect me all that much; I always accepted it and knew it was for the best. It will be harder for your kids, of course (especially the 7-year-old), but they'll adjust. The biggest and most challenging responsibility you will face is making that adjustment as easy as possible, though it will be difficult for them no matter what you do. Still, it's much better to do this now than when they're older, or to force yourself and them to remain in a miserable family situation indefinitely.

[Lochloosa]

39. Hypothetical question.

You stay and in a year from now you meet the women of your dreams. Your true soul mate. You know she would make a perfect stepmother, wife, lover and friend.

Then do you leave because of her and the kids think that is the reason?

I was divorced when my son was 4. Stayed active in his life then and now. He is 24 and we have a strong relationship.

[RetroLounge]

44. "you meet the women of your dreams"

Oh God, I can't even begin to comment on that...

RL

[Lochloosa]

85. lol....took me a minute

[City Lights]

40. Don't give up until you've given counseling a chance.

We had one session when living in AZ and it was a disaster. It did more harm than good because my husband wasn't ready. He was a total jerk and I refused to go with him again. We had our second session two days ago with a different counselor (make sure you get one who knows what he/she is doing - our current one has her PhD). I popped a Xanax to calm my nerves before going since I wasn't sure which husband would show up - the one I married, or the one who showed up last April. Well, the one I married showed up and our first session was a success. Our counselor asked us to make a 10-week commitment with her, but both of us agree that we'll probably need more than 10 weeks to repair our marriage.

Also, I highly recommend After the Affair, by Janis Abrahms Spring. It's written from the hurt partner's perspective as well as the unfaithful partner's. It then examines your options (ending marriage or saving it) and takes you through steps to rebuild trust if you decide to try and save it. My husband has read it numerous times. I read it once, but when I realized he was still seeing her, I whipped it into the trash can. Since my husband is now serious about working to save our marriage I'm going to buy another copy and read it again.

Good luck and hang in there, RL. PM me anytime...

:hug:
Peace,
No Surrender

[Hell Hath No Fury]

43. That's a tough choice...

My dad was a cheating jackass who used to play with handguns and threaten suicide. I've always thought it was a good thing that the parents split when I was just a year old. I wouldn't have wanted to grow up with that kind of family drama.

With that said, my nephews grew up with parents who stayed with their marriage for 20+ years even though they lived as you described -- as essentially roomies.

When they finally got divorced, the kids were terribly hurt -- much more so than we ever though they'd be. Talking with them later, even though they know their parents marriage was a sham, they would have preferred to maintain that illusion.

If there is any harm being done to the children by one parent, then I don't think there is even a doubt. Other than that, I can't say that I know for sure anymore...

[Orsino]

45. You do owe the kids something.

But I suppose you already are staying for their sake. It all depends upon what you see as the benefits they reap from having to parents present, versus your own sanity and need for love.

I'm sure as heck not going to pass judgement. Good luck in making the best possible decision.

[miss_american_pie]

47. Not enough info to vote

This situation is way too complex to vote on with what little we have to go on.

Are both parents willing to work on the marriage? If not, are they willing to stay married as roommates? Are they kind to each other or actively hurting each other? (And, trust me, the kids know the answer to that.)

Are the kids already negatively affected? Will both parents stay involved in the kids' lives in event of a divorce? Can the adults be mature co-parents with regard to the raising of the kids? Are they currently?

Does either person want out above all else?

:hug:

[Zookeeper]

48. I don't really know the background to your situation, so...

I'm reluctant to vote in this poll.

My thoughts based on what you've said in this thread (and the anxiety situation) are to take your time figuring this out. It must be awful for you, but there is seldom a quick fix for anything that involves marriage and children. I'm glad to hear that you and your wife are going to counseling, which can save a marriage, can create a more amiable divorce or can quickly dispel any notion that a friendly relationship will be easy.

As a parent, my belief is the adults need to be adults and make sure that children are the first priority, whether you divorce or not. Give them lots of reassurance that they are loved and safe (I'll bet you are, but how about your wife?).

Do you have an idea of how you would structure your life post-marriage? When you have kids, even if you divorce, you're kind of "stuck" with your ex-spouse at least until the kids are adults. I'm not sure that having divorced parents who fight is any better than having married parents who fight. Do you and the kids have an extended support system, so the kids have other adults who can give them attention when times are rough? Think about these sort of questions before your first counseling session.

I don't know if this helps in any way, but I do wish you and your family the best. :hug:

[Mutley]

50. No, no, no!

My mother and father hated each other, but stayed together for awhile for the sake of me and my sister. When they finally divorced, things were So. Much. Better. The divorce screwed me up a bit (one reason I've been with my SO for 8 years without marrying him), but it wasn't nearly as bad as if my parents had stayed together.

[Heddi]

56. My husband resents that his parents stayed together in a loveless marriage

for as long as they did.

He was the youngest, with 2 older sisters, one 2 years and the other 4 years older than him.

It was blatantly obvious that his parents didn't love each other and barely liked each other. They didn't divorce until the older 2 were in college and my husband was a Jr. in high school.

He hates them for it. Always bickering, and even if they weren't fighting, he said you could cut the tension in the house with a knife. It was uncomfortable for he and his sisters to grow up in that household, because it was very easy for the angered parents to take their frustration out on the kids, rather than each other. There was no beatings or physical abuse, but bordering on emotional and verbal abuse.

His older sisters relay that the tension was ALWAYS there, even when my husband was too young to realize it.

It was an emotionally manipulative situation, and he resents them for it, and he has issues with trust and committment because of it. He's not a cheater or anything, but he's always afraid that I'm just going to up and leave him at the drop of the hat, or outgrow my use of him in life.

---

Kids know more than you think they know. You can play and pretend and act like you're happy, but they know. My husband and his sisters knew even though his parents put on an Academy Award-winning performance for close to 20 years.

Don't think for a second that you're fooling them--you're not. You're fooling yourself. Children, I have found, are happier when their parents are happy, even if that means their parents are divorced.

And the longer YOU wait to make the obvious and right-headed decision, the more they will question why you waited so long, and why you put them through years of uncomfortability when you could have ended the marriage sooner, and gotten on with your life and allowed them to get on with theirs.

[Zookeeper]

58. 'Just another thought...

I knew a couple who divorced when their only child was a young teen. From what I heard, it ended up not being that big of a deal for him because the majority of his friends had divorced parents as well! It actually made him more "normal" for his community. I find that sad, but...:shrug:

[JVS]

61. Why would you father 2 children with this woman if you were not sure...

that you wanted to stay in it? You shouldn't be merely a bill paying roommate, you must participate fully in your family. What's going wrong?

[Ellen Forradalom]

63. Back story here

He is sure, she isn't.

[JVS]

66. Then why would she have had two kids by him?

[eyesroll]

74. Because things change? I don't think many people get married and have kids

assuming/knowing they're going to want out (or in some cases, need out) years later.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. divorce doesnt harm kids as much as neglect does

[NashVegas]

91. Funny You Should Say That

If you look around enough you just might find a correlation between one-parent households and neglect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

97. i disagree

when parents who are unhappy with each other are together, neglect is rampant

also only 12% of kids in the US are brought up in 2 parent households and i dont think that 88% of kids are neglected

[NashVegas]

98. Where Did You Get That Statistic?

That 12% of US kids are brought up in two-parent households.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. in a lot of classes in college

[NashVegas]

100. I'd Love to See The Cite

I've been doing some casual surfing and the numbers I've found put it around 62% for 1996-98. Haven't come across anything for 2005, but you might want to think about suing for a tuition refund.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

67. No. I'd get out.

My uncle is divorced, and his two young kids (prob. about 5 & 7 at the divorce) are much better off now.

Sometimes staying in can hurt more than it helps.

But the decision is yours, RL.

Good luck....

:hug:

[skygazer]

68. Divorce does screw up kids

But living in a bad situation screws them up too. Kids know a lot more than we usually give them credit for - they can tell when things aren't right, when there's tension, when mom and dad aren't getting along. That's hugely stressful for them and sometimes more stressful than a breakup.

You have to ask yourself a bunch of question. Like -

Can we continue to co-habitate without our stresses and differences influencing the kids? That's very difficult. You have to get along to a certain extent, be consistent with parenting expectations and discipline, etc. Most people can't manage that too well.

Can we co-habitate without major arguments stemming from our differences, and without using the kids against each other?

You also have to ask, if we split, can we be adults and do so in a way that affects the kids as little as possible? It can be done but requires a lot of effort and cooperation. You have to remember who the adults are and behave like adults. And once again, neither parent can even consider using the kids against the other, a tactic that enrages me more than anything.

Every situation is different and only you can judge what's best for your kids. And either option sucks. I'm sorry. :hug: I've been there.

[SOteric]

69. What message do you want to send you children?

That they should sacrifice their personal happiness for the sake of a joyless obligation?

Or that they should seek to honourably end their joyless obligations for the sake of their personal happiness?

Whatever message you craft will shape their lives and the way they view themselves and their own relationships. You can't not mess up their lives, it's part of the human condition. But if your children were the adults asking your advice in this situation, what would you tell them?

[REDKING]

70. Simple......No.

Life = chance
Chance to live.

[jmm]

71. One of the best things my parents did for me was divorcing

Sure divorce can come with its own set of adjustment issues but most problems children deal with when their parents separate aren't because of the divorce. They are because of bitterness and irresponsible parenting.

[BlueIris]

89. The worst thing my parents did to me was stay together. nt

[usedtobesick]

72. I did for a long time... I regret it now

the kids tell me now they wish I had been smarter about it. But yours are young so you really do need to seek counseling for them and you... There is my two sense worth. Best of Luck to all of you!

[Sugar Smack]

73. My mother & father's divorce was the best thing that happened

to us kids. My brother & I were your kids' ages, and my father got sole custody. This was during a time when it was near impossible for a man to get custody. My brother & I were a lot better off. Of course we never knew it at the time, but we grew to realize it.

My very best to you, RL. :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[u4ic]

76. I am a product of one of those

In my late 30's, and still trying to clear my messed up view of relationships (there also was abuse from my father, fwiw).

I would echo the counselling; if it's a no-go, get out. You owe it to yourself, and to your kids. You deserve to be happy. Your kids need to see that there are choices one can make, even if they are not easy ones.

Good luck. :hug:

[Ksec]

77. Tough call

I say it all depends on your situation. If you can do it without it hurting the kids then yes. You should try to make it work first and if it has no chance then do it.

[Left Is Write]

78. I do not know what I would do.

Barring other issues, like substance abuse or spousal abuse, I honestly could not say that I know what I would do.

Whatever you decide, you have a tough road, and I'm sorry for that. I'm wishing you and your kids the strength to get through.

[latebloomer]

79. A recent study said

that, if it's a low-conflict marriage, it's better to stay together, but, if there's a lot of conflict, divorce is better for the kids.

Would definitely check out counseling, either together and/or by yourself, before making the decision.

[fishwax]

80. my best to you

I'm sorry you're dealing with this situation.

(As for the poll question, I wouldn't stay for the kids, as I think kids can be better off under divorce than a loveless/dysfunctional home.)

[democracyindanger]

81. Every day you stay is lying to the kids

Every day you're married composes what your kids grow to believe is a loving marriage.

[supernova]

82. I don't know that it's possible

to stay in a loveless marriage and NOT to have it be a corrosive influence on your soul. Just the fact that every day you are doing without love, sharing the day to day with someone who you know doesn't give a damn about you, that can be damaging to a person.

I think overall, that would be worse for the kids. They need you to be the best parent you can be. A large part of that is being happy with other parts of your life. Also, if you stay, you are teaching them that martyrdom, not meeting their needs when they get to be grownups, is a healthy thing. I don't think you mean to do that.

[supernova]

90. Don't stay because you're afraid to be alone

Sometimes I think people just try to convince themselves that they're "staying for the kids," when, in reality, it's just that they are scared to be alone, often for the first time in their lives.

Get this straight: THERE ARE MUCH WORSE THINGS IN LIFE THAN BEING ALONE!

There is also this corrollary: There are much worse things for your kids in life than you being a single parent.

And really, you need to find that inner strength. The only way to do that is to go through that door. What you and they find, you might surprise even yourself. ;-)

[KitchenWitch]

83. I really cannot vote, because I am not in the situation

and do not know what I would do. But I can offer my support and love for you and your family. My hope for you is the best possible outcome.

:hug: :loveya:

[Radio_Lady]

84. My kids were one and two years old when I divorced. I couldn't stay

in a loveless marriage with an adulterous husband (he had cheated six weeks after we were married, then again right before the birth of our second child, and again when we were separated). Just more than I could bear. He sued me for divorce in 1971 and married another woman the next month. She is a wonderful gal and they seem to be happy after more than thirty plus years. I remarried a very kind fellow about a year and a half later. This marriage wasn't a complete picnic (raising the three kids from a marriage where the mother had died) and I had a lot of baggage from my childhood and adolescence which I finally had to face squarely. Today, I don't recommend anyone marrying someone with children from another wife. However, my kids adore my current husband and are in stable marriages of their own with children. Perhaps it was the fact that my kids were so young that worked to my advantage.

I tried everything to stay, but ultimately, when he told me he didn't love me, that was the end of the trail.

Good luck to you, whatever you do. There are no easy answers. I hope you find your answer and live the rest of your life with someone you care about and who cares about you.

In peace,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

[LaurenG]

86. I had made a decision never to post in the lounge again

but this post made me post: Your kids are going to be mad at you no matter what you do. Take a poll and most people who have matured will admit they used blame their parents for_______, or still do.

You need to make sure that you are OK, it's weird but kids can take anything if they see a parent is OK and coping. Whatever you decide on if you start to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF the kids will understand that people can cope with any situation. I know one thing about similar types of situations, kids learn by example. People grow up and "automatically" behave the way they saw their parents behave, think etc.
(Unless of course they have actively, consciously, sought out a different way to deal with life.)

I hope you can figure out a way to nurture and care for yourself during this transition, it's one of the greatest gifts you can give to your kids. :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:


edit spelling

[Onlooker]

87. If it's over get out

Kids need to learn about love, and they'll only learn about that if you and your spouse find it. But, once you're out, be a great dad.

[BlueIris]

93. Yep.

I'd try to post something similarly well-worded, but Onlooker nailed it. Except, let me add that I don't think RetroLounge is going to have any issues with being a great Dad, whether he is a full-time Dad or not. Kids grow and thrive best with HEALTHY parents who can love them because they are HEALTHY. Doesn't matter how much time you get to spend with your children, what matters is what your attitude is when you're with them.

"It does not matter who my father was/it matters who I remember he was" (Anne Sexton)

Good luck, Retro!

[NashVegas]

92. Under Certain Conditions

Like, if my spouse were okay with me taking a lover on the side, as long as I kept my committment to my family - in which said spouse would indeed be a member, just not one which I was sexually involved with.

My parents split up when I was four. There probably would have been a disaster either way (my dad was an alcoholic) but if I got to choose between the two, I'd rather have had the disaster where I had at least one loving, attentive parent in my home no matter how much of a mess he was.

[cassandra uprising]

94. My parents divorced after 30 years and should have done it sooner.

Both my parents came from "broken" homes and they wanted to stay together for the kids. Of course there were several other factors in my parents situation that are undoubtedly different from yours, but there are similar themes.

I am the youngest of three and my parent's relationship was over by the mid 80's. I think I was 8 ot 9 and I remember begging my mother to divorce my dad who was physically abusive at the time. She didn't, in part I think of her unwillingness to admit that she made a poor SO choice and had a failed marriage on her hands. She was also in denial of the extent of the abuse. She went to counseling, she went to her priest and both told her to stay. At 13 I committed myself into a mental health treatment facility just to get out of my house. And while I didn't realize it at the time, I was dragging my family into therapy with me.

My mother waited until she was 50 to take her life back and make it hers. I am proud of her, but I can't help but wonder what her life (and mine) would be like if she had done it sooner. It's fairly presumptuous for me to say, as we all love to look back with 20/20, but I strongly feel that we as a family would have been better off if she left.

For one, children's first example of loving relationships is learned from their parents. I learned a lot of toxic behavior from my parents as they learned to live in a relationship that had run it's course long before I entered the picture. A lot of my young adult life has been trying to manage how to decode this learned behavior. My mother's martyr complex, my father's aggression, both are coping mechanisms that stem from a lack of self love.

Love begins with the self. If there is no self love, it makes it tricky to love a partner.

I hope that reflection, peace and love come to you and your family. I send you all my best.

On edit: I disclose all this to say, don't stay married for the kids. It will do you all more harm than good.

[RetroLounge]

95. All a Moot Point Now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4552061

RL

[Rhiannon12866]

101. Of course you want to do what's best for your kids,

since this will affect them profoundly, but you also must think about what's best for yourself. And only you know how you really feel, what you can endure or what is really in your heart. I think that you need to take some time, examine your feelings, talk to someone, a close friend who knows you well and cares, or someone professional, if you feel that you need it. Only by taking the time, will you come to understand what you really want and what's best for you and for your kids. The best of luck with this, my friend. Keep us posted and know that you always have friends who are willing to listen and lend support, here on DU.:-)

Rhiannon:grouphug:

[Hosnon]

102. Yes...as the child of divorce I think I would have preferred them stay

until I left for college.

Then again, I don't know the emotional ramifications of finding out that they stayed just for me but there is the chance no one will find out...