HELP! I need facts, arguments, rational explanations!

[grace0418]

Okay, I received the letter listed below from my father-in-law. A few things about him first: he's a very kind man who came to this country from the Philippines in his thirties. I know it doesn't seem like a kind person would send this email, but it's true. He's generous, sweet-natured and affectionate. He's worked very hard his whole life to bring his three kids to this country and make sure they got an education and a good life. So I can understand somewhat his frustration with his perceived notions (meaning: the way the msm portrays things) of minorities looking for hand-outs and not wanting to work to achieve anything. Because he is a minority and he and my m-i-l worked their asses off. I'm not saying I agree with his perception because I understand how institutional racism, poverty, and the lies of the msm work. I'm just saying I understand somewhat if he believes them because he's not the deepest man in the world. He's ruled by fear, superstition, and most importantly, his truly insane version of Catholicism (regular Catholicism was too "liberal" for him, I kid you not) that has him stock-piling holy water, amulets and canned food in the basement for the impending Judgment Day.

Anyway, he recently learned how to forward emails. So I get all kinds of crazy "God Loves You" messages with cuddly bears and angels. Gross, but fine. I have no problem with that. Once in awhile I get some stupid WARNING email about an obviously false danger and I send him the snopes.com link to show him why it's false. But generally I let him have his opinions because I know he and I are never going to be on the same page.

But today, I get this "Andy Rooney" email which is so clearly false that I just feel I need to respond. It occurred to me that maybe nobody has ever bothered to respond to my f-i-l with truth. He's very impressionable, so if the only thing he ever hears is the bile spewed by freepers, that's how he's become poisoned. But because I know he's a good man, maybe shining a little truth in his eyes will wake him up. I've already copied the snopes.com link proving that Andy didn't write it (along with a quote from him expressing his outrage). But what I really want to do is respond to the actual opinions expressed in this email with facts and rational thought. That's where I need DU's help. I'm not good at remembering facts and examples to argue my points, but sooooooo many people here are great at it. Can you all help me refute the lies and bigotry expressed in this letter without becoming combative and mean? I want to change his mind, not bury him.

Thank you so much! This might be fun!

Here's the letter:

I'm surprised CBS let him get away with this even though I think he is right. AMEN ANDY ROONEY !

Right on, Andy Rooney!

Andy Rooney said on "60 Minutes" a few weeks back:

I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens...Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

I believe that if you are selling me a milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.

I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines.

I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.

I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them

I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building.

It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say "NO!"

I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.


And if you don't like my point of view, tough...

DON'T PASS IT ON

[kick-ass-bob]

1. Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/rooney4.asp

Moreover, Andy Rooney himself denied it in 2003, saying:
About a year ago, I became aware of a more serious theft of my name and it is so hurtful to my reputation that it calls for legal action against the thief. Hundreds of people have written asking if I really wrote the 20 detestable remarks made under my name that have had such wide circulation on the Internet.

Some of the remarks, which I will not repeat here, are viciously racist and the spirit of the whole thing is nasty, mean and totally inconsistent with my philosophy of life. It is apparent that the list of comments has been read by hundreds of thousands of Americans, many of whom must believe that it accurately represents opinions of mine that I don't dare express in my column or on television. It is seriously damaging to my reputation.
Mr. Rooney disclaimed the above-quoted piece again in his 60 Minutes segment of 23 October 2005, saying of it:
There's a collection of racist and sexist remarks on the Internet under a picture of me with the caption ‘ANDY ROONEY SAID ON 60 MINUTES.’ If I could find the person who did write it using my name I would sue him.

[grace0418]

2. Thanks, as I said, I have the snopes link already.

I can prove to him that the letter is false and that Andy Rooney thinks it's awful and bigotted. What I want to prove to him is WHY. I want to go point by point and explain to him why the logic, facts, and attitudes expressed are just plain wrong. But thanks for the link.

[kick-ass-bob]

4. Would not Andy Rooney's words (that I pasted in) be enough?

Point by point would be overkill, IMHO, and it would get lost on him especially if you did it all at once.

[grace0418]

5. Maybe you're right. Maybe I won't refute EVERY point. But

I don't think the snopes link is quite enough. So, okay, Andy Rooney and I both say these statements are bigotted, but WHY do we say that. I don't think anyone has ever explained to my f-i-l WHY. If I just tell him "this is bigotted and false" he'll never see the light when so many freeper-types are willing to spout all their "facts" to "prove" their idiotic notions.

[TrogL]

6. That's fairly straightforward

It's full of logical fallacies.

Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens

The "black" magazines listed exploited a niche market. "white" is the default. There is no niche market. The magazines would fail for lack of readership.

Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

Guns are an easy way to kill somebody from a distance. That's why the military uses them (among other things). It's a lot more difficult to kill somebody with a baseball bat because they can fight back.

I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

In many jurisdictions the Girl Scouts have folded for lack of membership. For those girls wanting to take place in the Scouting experience (eg. badges etc.) there is nor reason why "Boy Scouts" is not a reasonable alternative. If there is a "boys only" thing going on within Scouting, I'd like to know what it is and who's supervising it.

I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

Not if you're using that "opinion" to deny somebody housing or employment.

I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

Not if you are using that intolerance to deny something or to justify violence.

When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

Where are those numbers coming from?

I believe that if you are selling me a milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

There is nothing preventing you from failing to buy a product because you don't like (or understand) the pitch.

My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.

Define "disrespect". Give examples.

I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines.

Since when did threatening someone became a capital offence? When did police officers become executioners?

I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

Name the special program.

We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

Who is "they"?

I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor.

I don't think hatred is the issue most people have with the rich (or poor).

I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them

So what. Nobody is talking about taking WWW off the air.

I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building.

I don't dislike Bill Gates. I dislike his operating systems.

It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say "NO!"

Who sets the standards? The "village".

I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

I am not aware of any political movement associated with tats. If Republicans would stop crippling workplace health and safety regulations, employers would be able to prevent people with visible infections from being on the serving line.

I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.

Then stop ticking "caucasian" on your census form. You are not from Russia.

[grace0418]

7. You ROCK

Thank you. I will be incorporating many of these! Excellent.

[grace0418]

3. Here's how I'm starting my response:

Hi Dad

I really enjoy getting emails from you, and I certainly hope you don't stop sending them. But I feel I must respond to this email in particular with a few facts.

First of all, a quick check on www.snopes.com revealed that this is a false attribution, which I suspected. Andy Rooney may be a curmudgeon, but he's not quite the closed-minded bigot this letter would suggest. In fact, he had this to say about the false letter being sent around the internet in his name:

"About a year ago, I became aware of a more serious theft of my name and it is so hurtful to my reputation that it calls for legal action against the thief. Hundreds of people have written asking if I really wrote the 20 detestable remarks made under my name that have had such wide circulation on the Internet.

Some of the remarks, which I will not repeat here, are viciously racist and the spirit of the whole thing is nasty, mean and totally inconsistent with my philosophy of life. It is apparent that the list of comments has been read by hundreds of thousands of Americans, many of whom must believe that it accurately represents opinions of mine that I don't dare express in my column or on television. It is seriously damaging to my reputation."

Second of all, I sincerely hope you don't truly agree with the judgmental and bigotted remarks of this person who was so cowardly that he couldn't even put his real name on his vitriol. I know you and I may not always agree on everything, but I know that you are a kind, decent, Christian man. Some of the opinions and "facts" are completely false and definitely not Christian. Let me offer some examples...

[anarch]

8. I've totally given up responding to this kind of bullshit

If it's email, I just delete it. If it's IRL, I just ignore it as much as I am able. I used to try to explain historical context, and cite as many statistics as I could think of to show that institutional racism is prevalent in our society in ways we might not readily see, and calmly try to explain how the legacy of slavery and (fairly recent) policies of segregation and intentional inequality still to this day affect the lives of millions of people. And so on.

I myself am inflicted with an acquaintance who constantly complains about "reverse racism" and how immigrants are ruining his life and how it's not his fault that all these black people can't get a break and how "of course the prisons are filled with blacks because it's them that commit all the crimes" and blah blah blah etc.

I used to try to argue with him, or at least inject some kind of more balanced interpretation of our society into our conversations, but it only ever seemed to lead to him getting even more riled up, and eventually it always turned into some bizarre argument about how our society has started persecuting Christians (:wtf:)

Anyway, I eventually came to a realization. It's not that he's misguided and uninformed. It's just that he's a racist. So I just stopped talking to him.

[grace0418]

9. I totally agree in most cases.

I usually delete emails like this and ignore bigots. But this is my father-in-law. I can't exactly do that. Besides, I do know the man and I know he is misguided and uninformed. His bigotry is out of fear and ignorance. Which, yes, I know is the basis of most all bigotry. In my f-i-l's case, I believe he can be swayed into understanding and tolerance because I know he is a good person.

[grace0418]

10. Anyone else game?

Pretty please? TrogL started me off great but I need more!

[grace0418]

11. A kick for the evening crowd...

Anyone feeling fiesty?

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. I got this about a week ago

I was suspicious, because it doesn't sound like Rooney. So I went to the 60 Minutes site and searched the Rooney archives as far back as they go, to like 2001. This column isn't in there.

I didn't take that as definitive proof because CBS might've pulled it if there were a lot of controversy. But I doubt that, since controversy means ratings.

[grace0418]

13. It's definitely not real. Snopes has it in their archives and

even has a quote from Andy Rooney himself. I'm sending the snopes link to my f-i-l. I just wanted some ammo on the specific "points" made, but I guess no one is in the mood. Which is weird because usually threads like this get a million responses with tons of links and facts and figures. Oh well, maybe I smell.