What the hell does Brokeback Mountain have to do with Sodom

[hickman1937]

and Gomorrah? That was about depraved greedy people. How did gay get stuck into this? I haven't seen the movie yet but I will this week. I was just reading at IMDB and some jerk was ranting about this was all about S and G. They got burned for greed, and sadism.

[hfojvt]

1. I looked up the verses

sodomy the word for oral or anal sex comes from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 18:16 - 19:29. Abraham intervened for the towns, getting God to agree that if there were ten decent people in the towns, that he would not destroy them. Two angels came to visit Abraham's nephew Lot, and that night "all the men from the city of Sodom - both young and old - surrounded the house. They called to Lot "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:5) Lot offers his virgin daughters instead (yes it is quite the sick story) but the men of Sodom are not interested.

A quite similare story is told in Judges 19:22 but in this case the host sends the traveler's concubine outside and "they raped and abused her throughout the night" and her master finds her dead the next morning and Israel went to war with that town.

[hickman1937]

2. Sorry, all I got is this,

Classical Jewish texts do not specifically indicate that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because inhabitants were homosexual. Rather, they were destroyed because the inhabitants were generally depraved and uncompromisingly greedy. Rabbinic writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and outsiders.

A rabbinic tradition, described in the Mishnah, postulates that the sin of Sodom was related to property: Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion. Another rabbinic tradition is that these two wealthy cities treated visitors in a sadistic fashion. One example is the story of the "bed" that guests to Sodom were forced to sleep in: if they were too short they were stretched to fit it, and if they were too tall, they were cut up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

If you need more, please give me a couple of days to find where I originally found the Mishna interpretation. Wiki was just fast and easy to find.

[hfojvt]

5. the bed of Sodom

sounds suspiciously like the bed of Procrustes, but whatever the original sources stay, conservatives will be believing what they read in the Bible and also that sodomy is not synonymous with cupidity, and that Sodomite is defined in my dictionary as 1) and inhabitant of Sodom, and 2) one who practices sodomy

although, curiously enough my 1962 unabridged dictionary limits it to anal sex and includes bestiality in the definition of sodomy whereas my Oxford Desk Dictionary (1997 American edition) includes oral sex but does not mention bestiality. Whereas Webster's New World Dictionary says "any sexual intercourse held to be abnormal" which sounds pretty fluid. Some people might think that anything other than missionary position with the man on top is abnormal.

[hickman1937]

3. Also this.

Midrash on Sodom

The midrash compilation "Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer" offers a number of reasons why the Sodomites were considered evil, but again there is no mention of homosexuality. One of the texts states:

Rabbi Ze'era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt... Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven... Rabbi Joshua... said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked...

Again in modern terms, this story suggests that they were condemned for enclosure of the commons, and for perversion of justice.

on edit,http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:XHMQTxoEgAkJ:sodom.biography.ms/+mishna+sodom+and+gomorrah&hl=en

[NMMNG]

7. Erroneous interpretations

Created by prejudices.

The biggest sin of the Sodomites was actually inhospitality.

The interpretation now accepted by many Biblical scholars (excluding the most evangelical sects) is as follows: Lot was a ger, a sojourner, a resident alien in Sodom. He had certain civic obligations in return for the protection which the city offered him, and there are indications that he was unpopular in the city. He did not have a right to open his house to foreigners, and the citizens of Sodom were merely demanding to see the credentials of these two foreigners, that is, to "know" whence they came and their intentions. Lot had to refuse, however, because he himself was under the obligations of the Jewish code of hospitality to his guests. He offered the Sodomites his daughters as the first appeasement that came to his mind, not as a heterosexual substitute for a homosexual demand. The cities were they destroyed for not recognizing the obligations of hospitality, and the whole story is a moral allegory on the dire effects of inhospitality.

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/homopho2.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lot refused to expose his guests to the abuse of the men of Sodom. To do so would have violated the law of sacred hospitatliy. In desert coutry, where Sodom lay, to stay outside exposed to the cold of the night could be fatal, so a cardinal rule of Lot's society was to offer hospitality to travelers.

snip

What was the sin of Sodom? Abuse and offense against strangers, insult to the traveler, inhospitality to the needy, and sexual abuse. That is the point of the story understood in its historical context. The whole story and its culture make clear that the author was not concerned about sex in itself, lot offered his daughters without a second thought, the point of the story is not sexual ethics. The story of Sodom is no more about sex than it is about pounding on someone's front door. The point of the story is abuse and assault, in whatever form they take. To use this text to condemn homosexuality is to misuse this text.

snip

Even Jesus understood the sin of Sodom as the sin of inhospitality. Other passages in the Bible come right out and say the same thing.

snip

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/7608/sodom.htm

[hfojvt]

12. abusing the text, perhaps

but, again, it is not today's fundies who are abusing it. My NIV was not written by me, and it is pretty clear about sex and makes no mention of greed. It is homophobia that they have been taught, not that they have made up. It is also hard to give credence to a website with an agenda which makes reference to un-named Biblical scholars.

Jesus does make reference to the inhospitality of Sodom in Matthew 10:15, but mostly in regard to a city or people that were punished, not what they were being punished for.

Jude 1.7 says "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." The only other version I have The Gideon says "gone after strange flesh" and the "Living Bible" mentions "lust of men for other men" in Jude 1.7

I am not saying the translations that we have of those verses might not have come from Wycliffe or Luther in a homophobic era, but Bible readers of today are not the ones making it up.

[NMMNG]

15. Nonetheless, people's prejudices can and do seep into translations

So it is quite possible that even the translations themselves are tainted.

It is also hard to give credence to a website with an agenda which makes reference to un-named Biblical scholars.

Just because a website is written/run by gays or people who are gay friendly does not mean they have an agenda. Does every book, website, etc. that offers a different perspective have an agenda, or only those from the homosexual perspective?



Jesus does make reference to the inhospitality of Sodom in Matthew 10:15, but mostly in regard to a city or people that were punished, not what they were being punished for.

He does not state it in that verse, but if you read the preceeding verses along with it:


11"And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.

12"As you enter the house, give it your greeting.

13"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.

14"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

15"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Jesus makes it plain that it cities that are not hospitible to his disciples will suffer a fate worse than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why would use those cities as a point of comparison if their sin was not inhospitality?




Jude 1.7 says "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion."

In the New American Standard Version the same verse reads: 7 just as (W)Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh,

Interesting how some other translators choose to put a sexual spin on the "immorality". Again, prejudices can seep into translations and skew the original intent of the text. Who knows how many other perversions of the text have taken place over time.


The Gideon says "gone after strange flesh"

One pastor offers a possible interpretation of this phrase other than assuming it means "the same gender":
"Strange flesh" in all the commentaries I have read in referring to this verse has nothing to do with one's genitals, but rather going after the angels, i.e. not being human. Humans have sex with humans not other animals or angels. To attempt sex with animals or angels would be an unnatural act. So the answer to your question concerning the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah being homosexuality is "No."

http://www.whosoever.org/seeds/letter79.html



As to "The Living Bible" it is a paraphrase, not an actual translation and therefore not even worth debating.

[hickman1937]

16. Thank you Buffy.

Thanks for the research. I should have been in bed 4 hours ago. Thanks for the brain power.

[NMMNG]

17. De nada

Sometimes it is fun to have to work a little bit to respond to a post. :-)

Sleep well, btw. :boring:

[Archae]

4. More like...

Those two cities were prosperous, as opposed to the dirt-poor Hebrews, and they didn't worship the Hebrews' God.

So a story filters out to the Hebrews that the two cities had been destroyed by an Earthquake and fire, and the ancient Hebrews said, "See, God punished them!"
And the tale grew from there.

[hickman1937]

6. Most likely. How the hell did this get attached to gay people?

Another right wing lie. May God forgive the blasphemy. I, being human, am having a hard time with forgiving this deliberate perversion perpetrated for the sole purpose of hating those that can't spawn, with their loved one, given the limitations of their sexual identity.
Edit for clarity.

[Archae]

8. The Paulists...

As opposed to REAL Christians, corrupted it.

Like they corrupted so much of Christianity.
They even corrupted their saviour's NAME, for crying out loud.

[hickman1937]

10. Bingo. The one apostle that never knew Jesus.

The one that moved the Mass out of the houses(where women provided the bread and wine) and into group buildings, so men could take over. On the one hand I understand it because men were able to pick up and leave to evangelize, move around, and women couldn't. On the other hand I think he just hated women. JMO.

[hfojvt]

9. well, if you credit the rightwing

with authorship of the Book of Genesis, or mistranslating it. Perhaps they were the rightwingers of the time, but today's rightwingers are getting it from their Bibles, and not lying about it.

[hickman1937]

11. I guess it comes down to who's intrepetation you believe.

Talmud, or western translations. The St. James, the St Joseph's or Mishna. I guess we all have to choose.

[hfojvt]

13. most church-goers are unlikely to be aware of the Talmud

Even I do not know Mishna from Mithras. So they are not aware of a choice. They follow several hundred years of their own tradition.

[hickman1937]

14. Yeah, you are right. I'm sorry.

I'm tired, getting old and cranky. I think Matthew Shepherd affected me more than I knew at the time. I have a daughter about his age, and a son that I brought home from the hospital (for the fourth time in 2 and a half years) sunday night. Probably delayed reaction. I'm sorry if I sounded hostile. I just don't understand why it is so easy for some people to hate, then use the bible to justify it. End of rant.