Ohio High School Porn Homework Canceled

[proud2BlibKansan]

Ohio High School Porn Homework Canceled

Friday, January 13, 2006

BROOKLYN, Ohio - A high school research assignment on Internet pornography was canceled after parents in this Cleveland suburb complained.

Superintendent Jeff Lampert said that although the teacher's apparent goal - to discuss the harmful effects of pornography - was well-intentioned, he agreed with parents that the assignment was inappropriate for 14- and 15-year-old freshmen at Brooklyn High.

The assignment asked students to research pornography on the Internet and list eight facts about pornography. Students also were asked to write their personal views of pornography and any experience they had with it.

Lampert said he doubted the teacher, Scott Gioia, would face any punishment. Gioia teaches health and physical education and has been at the school for about five years.

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=news&referrer=welcome&id=20060113/43c733d0_3ca6_1552620060113174357310

[PassingFair]

1. Flame away...

I would demand that this teacher be fired.
Anyone who asks MY 14 year-old to research pornography on the internet would receive a face to face meeting with ME.
This is outrageous.

[DS1]

2. I think it was all about getting his rocks off watching kids talk about

porn

[Dangerously Amused]

139. Bingo.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I would completely understand

I find it rather outrageous too.

[NNadir]

12. No flame but I disagree with you with some reservations.

My view is that 14 is an age that is appropriate to develop critical thinking skills with which to look at the world.

A teacher could with the right guidelines assign such a subject in order to help students develop an outward look at their culture, which is indeed pornographic.

One could for instance, indicate appropriate sources, such as commentary in mainstream articles, imposing a limitation on articles from sources that were entirely sexual in nature, or depicted sexual acts in some manner. One might limit the discussion to the subject of the economics of pornography, the social and health implications, and the debate about issues such as exploitation, the psychological health of clients, performers and/or purveyors, historical legal criteria for what constituted pornography, etc. One might send a note home to parents explaining the nature of the assignment and the reasons for giving it. Under the right circumstances, the topic could be an excellent one.

My twelfth grade English teacher when I was in high school, for the last six months of class gave this assignment: You will research a topic, develop an opinion, make a presentation to the class, and defend that opinion in a debate with your classmates. We were graded on our presentation as well as our participation in the debate. All topics were open.

That teacher, a Mr. Birnbaum, a polymath in his own right, would certainly have approved an argument about pornography, not the display or contemplation of pornography, but the discussion would have been approved by him, and conducted and moderated with a sense of civilization and meaning.

I have had many teachers in my lifetime, and of course I still learn from other people, but without Mr. Birnbaum, I would have been far less of a man. I say that after more than 50 years of living. He was far and away the best teacher I ever had. Moreover, everyone who I knew who was taught by him agreed. All of his students learned something about the pleasure of thinking for themselves.

In any case, school is pornographic anyway. Of course, the greatest pornography of all is war, and children routinely study wars, albeit often with a positive patriotic spin redolent of praise and heroism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Go ahead and try it

and see how long it is before you lose your job.

[NNadir]

82. I am not now, nor never have been a teacher. Nor would I want to be one.

Teaching today is a field where everyone thinks themselves an expert, whether or not they have ever taken a course in pedagogy or tried to plan a lesson. We have everything from school prayer, to "intelligent design" to ethnic relations dumped on the heads of the teachers. Neither do we trust our children to evaluate things for themselves. Thinking today must be spoon-fed, and everyone must think alike.

I am aware of many parents who like to lecture teachers on how to do their jobs. Most of these parents do so because they are the parents of one of the exceptional geniuses who make up 90% of every kindergarten class in the United States. Many of these parents are concerned that modern teachers are poorly equipped to deal with all these Einsteins and Feynmanns.

But you're right, a teacher who tried such a thing as my teacher did some 30 years ago would be fired. The point of teaching today is not to learn thinking, or issues, or how to confront reality. The task is to take the SAT's.

I forgot.

Children today are, however, involved in pornography as objects, as victims, especially in the a world that can be opened up simply by clicking on the Internet Explorer icon. I personally feel that they should know about what pornography is. This way they can cut to the chase if they are confronted with it. In fact, I have tried to discuss exactly this issue with my oldest son, who is eleven, so that he might be protected. (Unfortunately he is very squeamish about all sexual issues - including where babies come from - and changes the subject when his mother and I try to raise it.) The issue first came up when he tried to log on to bionicle.com and mispelled the word. He was, frankly, freaked out by what came up. He came and got me right away.

I have been lucky in that my kids go to an excellent school, and I have a high regard for the professionalism of the teachers there. I would have no problem having them discuss any subject with my children, since I trust them. I have never had any reason not to trust them, although in some cases they have approached things differently than I might have done.

In any case, I don't know the details or motivations of the teacher in this particular case. He might be some kind of pervert, I don't know. Although I am the father of two young children, I am not particularly outraged by the case; I am aware that such a thing is easily misconstrued. There's too much potential for Fox News types soundbites here. But again, pornography, whether you are involved with it or not, is a cultural issue that has bearing on the lives of all citizens. I don't think it should be swept under the rug.

These are high school kids, not elementary school kids.

High school used to be a place where children learned to be citizens. It served that role for me and part of the reason was that magic year, my last year, when all things were open. But that was a long time ago and the world was very different.

[Rabrrrrrr]

106. That was beautiful! And so true. Schools aren't teaching thinking

as much as they used to; now they teach to the standardized tests and the rightwing propaganda.

Kids shouldn't have opinions, because, under the ReichWing, parents have ultimate, Biblical authority, and thus will tell the kid what to believe; and we'll make sure the teachers are towing the rightwing line.

Pornography is, as you said, an important and essential social and cultural issue, and therfore, there's no reason to sweep it under the rug; but the public sphere, whether it be high school or the city council, is the place to talk about it.

[mongo]

169. Given the right guidelines

One could create an excellent propaganda piece -- They should teach this back-to-back with "intelligent design".

One could for instance, indicate appropriate sources, such as commentary in mainstream articles, imposing a limitation on articles from sources that were entirely sexual in nature, or depicted sexual acts in some manner. One might limit the discussion to the subject of the economics of pornography, the social and health implications, and the debate about issues such as exploitation, the psychological health of clients, performers and/or purveyors, historical legal criteria for what constituted pornography, etc. One might send a note home to parents explaining the nature of the assignment and the reasons for giving it. Under the right circumstances, the topic could be an excellent one.

[LisaL]

14. There is something wrong with this teacher, that's for sure.

And the school just thinks it's all fine? Well... I don't think so.

[supernova]

3. While I would be upset

if this happened to a kid of mine,

I'm very surprised this guy thought he had to assign porn for homework. Like they're not looking at it already?!?

[evlbstrd]

4. Can the kids still get extra credit?

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. If it was my class, no

But then again, that is just me and my car is not yet paid for. LOL

[evlbstrd]

7. Your class is a little young, isn't it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Even if I taught high school,

ny car would still not be paid for yet. :)

[evlbstrd]

11. Let's say you owned one of the porn sites.

Get the kids to borrow daddy's credit card and join up. Instant car payment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I would need several sites

Something will have to replace that paycheck when it stops.

[evlbstrd]

104. It costs very little to host a site.

I'm not saying you should. It's a stupid hypothetical.
This warm weather has me planning projects I shouldn't start until April. I'm confused!

[Scooter24]

8. I'm sure there is an

intelligent way to study and discuss pornography in an academic environment, but I hardly believe that most Freshman and Sophomores have the maturity to look at the psychosocial issues presented in a way that furthers an academic interest. This paper would make an interesting senior thesis topic though.

The intentions of the teacher might be good, but this research has its roots in psychology, not health.

It also appears to me as if the health teacher is trying to link pornography to rampant sex.

[Mutley]

9. Porn is fine for adults.

I couldn't care less if an adult watches porn all day and all night, but do NOT try and get my underage child to watch porn. NO f-ing way! :grr:

[LisaL]

13. I think the teacher should be fired. I am amazed at the school's

attitude. I was always under the impression that showing porn to children is illegal. I don't care if these children look at porn all day long without asking anyone-the teacher should not be telling them to do illegal things for an assignment.

[lakemonster11]

15. While I agree that this was a bad idea,

he wasn't telling his students to look at internet porn---he was telling them to research internet porn. It's not the same thing. Obviously he wasn't thinking about what would happen when the kids went to google and typed in "porn." :eyes:

So I'm glad that the project was canceled, but I'm also glad the administration didn't overreact and fire this guy who was (they all seem to agree) well-intentioned.

[LisaL]

16. Ah-ha. The students were asked to describe their experience

with pornography. So, he obviously was thinking that children were going to actually look at porn.

[TimeChaser]

20. Not quite

"write their personal views of pornography and any experience they had with it."

He's asking if they've had any experience with porn. I don't know how long it's been since you were that age, but high school boys usually have experience with porn :eyes:

[lakemonster11]

30. I took that to mean that they should describe any

experience that they had with it, like "I found some porn in my uncle's truck when I was 8 and I was really confused by it" or "My dad gave me a Playboy when I turned 13---it was awesome." If they had never been exposed to porn, they could say, "I've never seen any porn."

There are a lot of articles about the phenomenon of internet porn---my assumption is that he expected them to read these articles for research, not go to porn sites (which, as you say, is illegal for minors). Obviously, this was a dumb assumption, because of course the kids would type "porn" or "internet porn" into a search engine and end up seeing all sorts of stuff they shouldn't see. I just don't think that was his intention.

[TimeChaser]

17. I agree with you

I had to research the effects of porn for a debate (I was 17 at the time).

Fortunately, I'm a google queen so I found what I was looking for without ending up at a porn site.

[GirlinContempt]

18. Researching porn on the internet

doesn't mean WATCHING porn on the internet.

Article doesn't provide enough information to decide conclusively that this teacher was saying "Hey kids go home and download porn", and I doubt he'd still have a job if thats what he DID say.

Jeez,over react much guys?

[LisaL]

21. The guy teaches health and physical education...

WTF he is doing giving children written assignments in the first place?
I don't recall writing any essays for physical education classes, when I was in school.

[TimeChaser]

22. Health Class

We had quite a few health class papers at my school.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. But Timechaser, don't you see, if you have written assignments,

the students might realize that they have penises and vaginas, and penises and vaginas are bad. Bad, naughty, filthy awful rotten bad. So bad, that if you touch them while showering or drying off, you have to take a shower all over with even more soap, to ensure the filth is wiped utterly from your hands.

[LisaL]

28. I think they know all of it without having a teacher telling them

to go look at porn. And never mind the goal of this teacher was to demonstrate that porn is bad. So, I guess he was trying to tell them that "penises and vaginas are bad".
:eyes:

[GirlinContempt]

42. I still will point out

Nowhere in that article does it state the teacher told them to go look at porn.
No where.

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. Oh, that's right, if you're learning about health you should be exempt

from writing. Or doing research. Or reading.

Or, perhaps, even learning.

Why not? It's the new wave since 2000 - teach our children nothing except to fear sexuality.

[GirlinContempt]

40. Are you for serious?

Crikey.
Yeah, ok 2 things brainiac:
Health and phys ed are two different things
written assignments aren't all that uncommon for either, but LESS uncommon for health class.

[LisaL]

48. Well, excuse me, but when I had physical education classes,

we were running, playing sports, etc. We had no written assignments of any kind.

[GirlinContempt]

52. Yeah, and when I was doing it

we had to do written assignments before we could go in to weight training. We had to prove we understood the safety issues before we could use the equipment.

But this, like most of your 'points', is totally off because it wasn't a phys ed assignment.

[noamnety]

165. ALL teachers are encouraged to give writing assignments

in my school. I'm an art teacher, and I give writing assignments. Writing skills go hand in hand with critical thinking on any subject. Any school that has a broader team teaching approach is probably having cross-curricular assignments like that, instead of all writing taking place in English class, all math occurring in math class, and so forth. As a group, the staff meets and identifies large areas they want to address in the school - sometimes based on standardized test results. We might see that as a whole, our students are weak in writing, in ruler/graph reading, in environmental issues, etc. When educational goals (writing skills, whatever) are reinforced in all the classes, the kids learn much better than when it's all compartmentalized.

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. Wow - some people here sure are harsh. God forbid the kids should

spend time, you know, learning.

American fucked up sexuality raises its ugly head again.

Did the teacher tell the kids to go LOOK at porn? That's not what the article says.

And, in my opinion, 14/15 years old is plenty old enough to discuss the ethical, moral, and social impact of pornography.

Hell, I was talking about it in my church at age 12/13.

Jesus, people, calm down. So your kid has a penis or a vagina. Big fucking whoopty doo. God forbid we should act like having a penis or a vagina is - GASP!!!!!! HORRORS!!!!!! - natural.

Apparently it isn't.

:eyes:

Speaking personally, I was born with a penis. I guess some of the people on this thread didn't get their sexual organs until later in life, perhaps at marriage or later.

[LisaL]

24. He is a physical education teacher. Why is he worried about

effects of porn anyway?
:eyes:

[TimeChaser]

26. He's a health teacher too

:eyes:

[LisaL]

29. What exactly does porn has to do with health?

Was he telling them to research STDs?

[TimeChaser]

32. A good health class

deals with mental and sexual heath too.

[LisaL]

35. He was telling the students that porn is bad, or haven't you noticed?

Do you agree that porn has harmful effects?

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. Oh, I don't know. Let me hazard a guess, maybe I'm out on a limb here,

but..... perhaps, just perhaps.... it's because he's a health teacher.

[supernova]

31. God Rabrrrrrr, I think I'm

developing a crush on you. :D

[Rabrrrrrr]

46. Thanks! I like to think of myself as just being sensible and logical,

and not letting over-reactive emotional responses cloud my judgment.

I believe in being rational, objective, and as unbiased as possible.

[LisaL]

33. His goal, according to the school, was to demonstrate the

harmful effects of porn to the students. But based on your posts, you must be agreeing with that.

[Rabrrrrrr]

34. If that's what the school said, then yes, I agree that that is what the

school said.

[LisaL]

37. Actually, I am wondering if you think porn has harmful effects?

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. Sure it can. Obviously. Anything can.

I can't think of one single thing in the universe that doesn't have harmful effects.

Whether it's harmful or not, though, is not the issue - the issue is that the teacher (though it's wrong for a teacher to assign an assignment with an inherit bias in it) wanted the kids to explore and learn about an issue. Who cares what the goddamn issue is? At least he had them thinking (though as a scientist and a teacher, I am chagrined that he felt the need to have an agenda; though the article doesn't say whether he ever announced that agenda to the kids).

[LisaL]

41. There are plenty of things for these students to think about.

Somehow I don't think porn has to be one of those things. Never mind that browsing porn sites is a sure way to infect your computer. If for that alone, I understand why these parents were pissed.

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. Ah, the good old canard of "there are some things that people just

shouldn't know".

Sorry, but I believe in taboo-free learning environments.

Sexuality is part of being a human being. It is neither "bad" nor "good", it just is.

And things that "just are" should NEVER EVER be forbidden from classroom discussion. EVER.

But then, I'm a pretty extreme liberal/libertarian when it comes to being a human being, and to education.

[Dangerously Amused]

140. How about making bombs?

The physics enabling that, and the instructions to do it, "just are," and are available on the internet. A bomb, in and of itself, is inherently neither "good" nor "bad." It just is.

Let's have our kids research how to make bombs for science class.

[GirlinContempt]

50. Uh oh its the artful dodger!

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm

[Dangerously Amused]

141. Uncalled for.

[GirlinContempt]

147. I don't think it's all that uncalled for

since the poster keeps dodging every question and ignoring things people are saying, diverting the issue whenever he or she feels like it.

[supernova]

36. It is a wise teacher

who lets the pupil demonstrate and experience the very prinicples he is trying to teach.

[LisaL]

38. Which in this case would be porn?

:shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. No, which in this case is THINKING ABOUT AN ISSUE.

Would you be this upotight if he had the kids research abortion? Or republicanism? Or the Moral Majority? Or minority rights? Or teen sex?

I think people here are reacting emotionally to the word "pornography", and letting their emotions totally cloud the fact that the issue at hand is "researching" and "coming to a conclusion".

From a black box perspective, there is no diference between having them research porn or researching ponies.

[LisaL]

45. I think their parents would prefer their children to researching something

else. Those horrible parents, they had a gull to complain. Imagine that.

[Rabrrrrrr]

47. I'm certainly offended.

I think it's a great research topic, and I'd happily help my teens research it, talk about it, and come to their own conclusion about it. My pastor and some other adults in the church did it with me when I was younger than these kids, and because of it, I and a lot of other people have grown up mentally balanced with a proper respect and appreciation for sexuality, with no fear of it all.

Why should we raise our kids to fear sex and sexuality and sexual expression? Why should we make them feel it's taboo? God, that's what pisses me off.

Goddamn American psychotic, maladjusted attitude toward sexuality.

[Dangerously Amused]

150. You are WAY off base.

She NEVER said that we should raise our kids to fear sex and sexuality and sexual expression. She NEVER said we should make them feel it's taboo. These are brand new issues that - you - are bringing into the mess.

In fact, she said earlier that she is all for porn, but for a teacher to assign teenagers to "research pornography," and further assign them to tell him all about their private, intimate experiences with pornography, was not an appropriate school assignment.

You should read her posts before you reply.

[Dangerously Amused]

142. Well, except that researching ponies isn't ILLEGAL.

[TimeChaser]

143. Researching porn isn't illegal either

I did a quick search for studies on porn. Nothing illegal there. :shrug:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_ovrvw.html

That's the kind of stuff the teacher probably expected them to go to.

[Dangerously Amused]

148. I agree with you that researching porn isn't illegal.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was. A poor choice of words on my part. However, allowing or encouraging children to view pornography is illegal. That is the point I was trying to make.


'That's the kind of stuff the teacher probably expected them to go to.

I would agree with you EXCEPT for the fact that the teacher also wanted to know about the student's personal, private experiences with porn. That indicates to me a prurient interest beyond merely academic. Which further suggests an intentionally ambiguously worded assignment, "research" instead of just "read articles about the effect that pornography has on society." I mean any teacher ought to be able to write a clearly worded assignment, especially given the subject matter and potential for misinterpretation.

[mongo]

170. It's not researching

When you have a state controlled interest diseminating propaganda about a social topic -- it's indoctrination.

[supernova]

49. Which in this case would be

to formulate how they think about it, how they respond to it, as well as their feelings about sexuality in general.

And hey, lets not forget all the academic research on porn out there. There's plenty of scholarly work on the topic as well.

[LisaL]

51. Never mind their parents objected.

Is that of any importance, or parents opinion should not matter?

[Rabrrrrrr]

54. So? Lots of parents object to evolution being taught;

doesn't mean we should bow down to their ignorance.

What if you were in a community in which the majority of parents objected to teachign that Clinton was anything but a Satanic, communist-loving America-hating adulterer who destroyed this country?

What if you were in a community in which the majority of parents feel that black kids shouldn't be in the same classroom with their precious white children?

What if you were in a community in which the majority of parents feel that the moon landing was faked and the earth is flat?

[Dangerously Amused]

149. And what if YOU

...were in a community in which the majority of parents thought that a teacher shouldn't assign 14 and 15 year old kids to "research pornography." No, I'll go you one better. What if the teacher himself then agreed that the assignment was inappropriate? (Do you realize that actually happened here?) But we shouldn't bow down to their ignorance, right? We should force that teacher to go through with that inappropriate assignment anyway, right?

:eyes:


It sounds like you're the ultimate authority for "one-size-fits-all sex education" in this country.

[Rabrrrrrr]

53. Shhhh.... we can't let people know they have sexual organs

until they've had children of their own.

[supernova]

55. Sex leads to children!

Boy, won't they be surprised! :D

(Absent birth control, of course.)

[Rabrrrrrr]

57. SHHHHH!!!

You're just giving the kids here ideas!!!

KIDS - beliebe uncle Rabrrrrrr, all that stuff below your waist is EVIL. Not to be thought about, touched, or considered in any way until your marriage night, and even then it is inappropriate for anyone to tell you what they are there for.

Good kids say NO! to their dirty, filthy parts.

[supernova]

61. Hermetically sealed until they're 35, the lot of 'em!

Thats the way it should be!

[LisaL]

64. Surely, not porn actors and actresses?

:shrug:

[supernova]

66. No dear, but it does seem

as if that's what you want for yourself. Have you ever had a decent orgasm?

[LisaL]

71. Why don't you go first? Do tell us about yourself...

[supernova]

76. Nope, you're the one advocating no sex ed

So I want you explain how young adults are supposed to grow up with healthy attitudes about sex without it.

[LisaL]

83. But you are the one saying that porn is what

causing teenagers to have healthy attitude toward sex. So, do start first.

[supernova]

84. Nope, didn't say that

try again...

[LisaL]

87. No? Porn doesn't lead to healthy sex life?

Now I am confused, cause I thought without researching porn, those poor teenagers will never have a healthy sex life. Isn't that what you were saying?

[supernova]

88. I said that

without talking about sex, including porn, they will grow up to have strang attitudes about sex. Just like their parents; the ones who are complaining now.

Oh and be sure to wipe your mags down before your teen finds them.

[LisaL]

90. Considering the parents have children in school, they were

somehow able to reproduce.
:shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

95. Being able to reproduce does NOT equate with sexual maturity,

in a psychological sense. Many teenagers manage to reproduce as well; usually teens who have no decent sex ed, no healthy relationship with sex, and, quite often, just plain no healthy relationships in their lives at all.

The PHYSICAL ability to reproduce does not mean that one is emotionally or psychologically mature to do so.

[LisaL]

105. And discussing porn will lead them to emotional and

psychological maturity? Shouldn't they discuss something they know about? As opposed to something they read about?

[Rabrrrrrr]

109. Oh, that's right - we're not supposed to teach, we should just let them

talk about stuff they already know.

I'll go burn the books, since in your opinion, reading about something that you don't know anything about is wrong.

In my day, that's how we learned. Apparently the pedagogical norm has shifted.

God, and to think of how I've fucked myself over, reading books to learn stuff.

I'm such a dipshit.

[supernova]

112. LOL!

:rofl:

What a terrible thing it is to lose one's mind....

[LisaL]

115. OMG! You have read books to learn stuff.

So, what should one do to learn about porn?

[Rabrrrrrr]

118. You really don't read our posts, do you?

To learn about porn - one reads books about porn.

So is it your opinion that every field of study in the world can be learned from books, except porn?

[Dangerously Amused]

158. She reads your posts just fine.

And responds accordingly.

You're the one answering with sarcasm and rhetoric, and avoiding her questions.

[Dangerously Amused]

154. "Oh and be sure to wipe your mags down before your teen finds them."

How rude. What is wrong with you? She said nothing to deserve that.

[Dangerously Amused]

153. Excuse me? WHEN did she "advocate no sex ed?"

Please, show me a post where she advocated "no sex ed."

Please.

[Dangerously Amused]

151. That was outright rude.

You owe an apology.

[LisaL]

163. Thank you for your support.

:hug:

[Dangerously Amused]

164. You're welcome.

You sure didn't deserve any of that. I am shocked at how badly you were treated, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I really respect you for not responding with the same nastiness in return. You were stronger than I am in that regard. But I just can't stand to see someone bullied like that.

The stupidest, stupidest, stupidest thing of all is that once you cut away all the blustering and hyperbole, you all AGREED on EVERYTHING! It's beyond me why some people couldn't stop to evaluate the argument long enough to see that.

The whole thing was POINTLESS!!!


Arrrrgggghhh!

:banghead:

[LisaL]

58. Somehow, sex never leads to children in porn.

:shrug:

[TimeChaser]

60. Perhaps that's

why the teacher wants to start an intelligent discussion about it.

[LisaL]

62. Looks like he will have to discuss the absence of babies in

porn movies with someone else, and not his students.

[Rabrrrrrr]

63. Yes, which is too bad. It would have been an interesting discussion

for the kids, and helped them to develop their research and writing skills, as well as their debate skills, and their ability to take data, form a conclusion, and defend it.

But, sadly, a bunch prudish assholes who fear their genitals have made sure that didn't happen.

[LisaL]

65. It's so sad.

:nopity:

[supernova]

68. So, what are your views on sex?

You know ours, what about yours?

[LisaL]

73. I know yours? I don't think so...

[supernova]

74. OH please,

don't be disingenuous...

[LisaL]

75. Hah?

[supernova]

79. Disingenous..

The state of feining ignorance....



Also, here's a great place to start your education:

http://www.cleansheets.com/toc.shtml

[Dangerously Amused]

157. What the hell is the problem with you tonight?!?

This is way over the line. For chrissakes, get your act together.

[Rabrrrrrr]

78. Do you even read the posts you are responding to?

Because if you did, then you would know the answer to your question.

[LisaL]

85. I imagine the answer to the question should be

in the post responding to mine, not the other way around.

[Dangerously Amused]

156. "But, sadly, a bunch prudish assholes who fear their genitals

...have made sure that didn't happen."


Huh. I guess the teacher himself must be ONE of those prudish assholes who fears his own genitals, since he admitted that his assignment was inappropriate. I guess you were arguing for him, before you were arguing against him.

Funny how that worked out.



Or perhaps you were referring to people like lizzie when you used the word "prudish." Yes lizzie, who earlier in this thread wrote, "I don't care if these children look at porn all day long without asking anyone..."

Oh my. That lizzie. That terrible, prudish woman who wants to shield our poor children's eyes from the evils of sex.

[TimeChaser]

67. Which is a shame.

It's not like the kids' parents are ever going to sit down and have an intelligent discussion on porn and it's effects. Hell, most of the parents are probably in denial that their teenagers look at porn.

[supernova]

69. Most of those parents

could also be in complete denial that they themselves look at/use porn.

:pity:

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. Yep, they're probably in denial, and probably have their own stash

or at least dad does. And they are either riddled with shame about their bodies, or at least the mothers are.

I find it so sad when insane assholes refuse to let children learn about the facts of life, and discuss them in a HEALTHY, GUILT-FREE environment.

200+ years being a country, and the majority of the fuckwits who make up this shithole still haven't evolved to the point of realizing that their children have sexual organs and should, perhaps, learn about them; AND explore sexuality ethically and morally, and form their own rubric of healthy sexual response.

[supernova]

77. In some ways, The English

and the Europeans got the better end of the deal kicking the Puritans out. Our legacy from them, especially about sex, is very disappointing.

[Rabrrrrrr]

80. I agree. And it is evident in this thread.

And certainly evident in freeperland, in the whitehouse, in Pat Robertson's church, at Dobson's place, in the southern baptists, and a shitload of other places.

I wish i could empathize with the people who are so afraid of sex that they'd rather teach their children how to kill, but I really can't.

I'm so thankful - and not just today, but have been my whole life - that I grew up in a church that taught us that sexuality was...egads!... NATURAL. And helped us codify and come up with our own theological rubric for considering and living in our sexuality. I'm glad I had a minister who was happy blow up condoms into giant balloons, and an older woman of the church who was willing to tell us about how great sex is, how not to be ashamed of it, and how God created each of us as sexual beings.

I look at all the sexually fucked up people in this country, and I wish, so deeply, that they all had had my experience.

We'd be a lot less violent of a country, I think.

[supernova]

81. Agree 100%

We'd be a lot less violent of a country, I think.

While I grew up in mainstream protestanism, I didn' have your experience. But no one certainly said that sex was bad or we were evil for thinking "dirty" thoughts about our crushes and partners. Nor even that you should "wait for marriage." None of that chastity bull. Things are pretty basic when everyone you know grows up on or around farms. :-)

edit: It just appalls me the way we promote violence as a better emotional release than sex. How fucked up is that?

[LisaL]

86. Good god, how did they accomplish all of that without porn?

[supernova]

89. Good god, it's amazing you're here

:sarcasm:

[LisaL]

91. Always happy to amaze someone.

[supernova]

92. Not a chance

I've been around the block too many times. :-)

So, again what are your views on sex? I'm going to keep asking you because all of us who post here regularly know each other quite well. We want fresh meat.

So, give it up or put us on ignore.

[LisaL]

93. I have been posting here regularly, so, find some other fresh

meat for your entertainment. I surely don't qualify.

[supernova]

96. You do qualify

espcially if you keep posting in this thread. But please continue so as to amplify the effect.

[LisaL]

102. You just going to keep wondering then.

[Rabrrrrrr]

97. Because porn is not essential, I should hazard a guess.

I'll ask again - do you even read what you are responding to? What kind of assinine question is that - 'How did they accomplish all that without porn?'?

Where have I said that porn is essential? Where has anyone said that porn is essential?

I get the impression that you think what some of us are arguing is this: Teenagers should be forced to watch porn in order to be sexually mature.


Which, of course, is not what anyone is saying; which you would know, had you done a closer reading of the posts.

What I'm saying, and I think what a few others are saying, is this: researching, and then discussing the pros and cons of pornography in a classroom of post-pubescent teenagers who are then allowed to form their own INFORMED opinion about pornography is appropriate and okay pedagogy.

[LisaL]

100. What are they going to research, do tell?

Do you think they can form an opinion about the subject without being able to actually view the subject? What are they going to discuss if the teacher didn't think they would actually look at porn?

[TimeChaser]

103. Um...

"What are they going to discuss if the teacher didn't think they would actually look at porn?
"

Maybe one of the many published studies on the effects of porn?

[LisaL]

107. Is study really a substitute for the real thing?

I mean, to agree or disagree with the study, and form their own opinion, as opposed to accepting somebody else's opinion, shouldn't they view porn to respond to the assignment appropriately?

[GirlinContempt]

111. Just like they don't form opinions about

nuclear energy, history, biology, etc, cause they've never seen it or done it themselves :eyes:

If I can't see Napoleon I can't understand the implications of the war!
:sarcasm:

[LisaL]

114. Can you form an opinion about a book without reading it?

If you are told to write your opinion about "War and Peace", is it better to read the book, or read about it?

[GirlinContempt]

126. So, can you form an opinion about astronomy without hanging out in space?

Listen to yourself. Just go back and read what you've written.

[Rabrrrrrr]

116. So basically, you're not going to answer anything asked of you,

are you?

If not, just be honest about it - no harm done. If you don't want to answer questions, fine. But let us know in advance that your intent is to ignore what we say and to ignore our questions.

Then we'll all know whether it's worth continuing so far empty and amazingly one-sided 'conversation'. Talking to someone who doesn't listen becomes very tireseom and tedious. We've answered shitloads of your questions - why don't you answer one of ours?

And in fairness, even though I am FAR ahead of you in the questions-answered ranking, I'll answer your question: they don't need to view pornography any more than a physicist needs to see a mu meson or an economist needs to see every bit of printed hard currency. I do theology, but I've certainly never seen God. No one has ever seen a dinosaur, but we have plenty of paleontologists.

I don't understand why you would think that your question is relevant, or even "clever".

[LisaL]

119. Paleontologists look at bones.

And I certainly don't believe in God, so, that argument doesn't work for me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

122. Tell you what, it's obviously a waste of time to try to have any

dialogue with you because you don't respond to questions, you don't read people's posts, and you don't offer anything meaningful in the discussion.

I don't care if you disagree - dialogue with people who disagree can be fun and enchanting and learning.

But when one's "dialogue" partner clearly has no intention of actually participating in any mature, scholarly, logical, or sensible way, then it's best to disembark from that voyage to nowhere.

If you decide to enter into a mature discourse, PM me and I'll come back.

Until then, I say adios. This "conversation" is over for me.


(p.s. - bones for a paleontologist are like books for a porn discussion; neither is the real thing, but they equally point to its existence, and both are equal starting points for a discussion; if you were being sensible, you would realize that your position that one has to view pornography to talk about pornography is the same as saying that one has to view live dinosaurs in order to study dinosaurs)

[Dangerously Amused]

162. Tell you what, it's a waste of time to try to have any dialog with you

...because you respond to your opponents legitimate issues with rhetoric, you bring irrelevant issues into the discussion, you don't read people's posts for content, you put words into people's mouths, you're sarcastic and insulting to those who haven't been that way to you first and who continue to respond politely despite your attacks, and you don't offer anything meaningful in the discussion. (That last part isn't completely true, but it wasn't true of lizzie either.)

I don't care if you disagree - dialogue with people who disagree can be fun and enchanting and learning.

But when one's "dialogue" partner clearly has no intention of actually participating in any mature, scholarly, logical, or sensible way, then it's best to disembark from that voyage to nowhere.

If you decide to mature, I'll be happy for you.

Until then, I say adios. This "conversation" is over for me.

[Dangerously Amused]

161. Oh really.

Rabrrrrrr:

So basically, you're not going to answer anything asked of you, are you?

If not, just be honest about it - no harm done. If you don't want to answer questions, fine. But let us know in advance that your intent is to ignore what we say and to ignore our questions.

Then we'll all know whether it's worth continuing so far empty and amazingly one-sided 'conversation'.

Talking to someone who doesn't listen becomes very tireseom and tedious."


I expect it must have been tiresome and tedious talking to yourself in the "amazingly one-sided conversation." You didn't have to put yourself through that, you know. Sometimes grown ups can respect a difference of opinion, and agree to disagree.



We've answered shitloads of your questions - why don't you answer one of ours?

Maybe because you answered shitloads of her questions with shitloads of pontificating crap. Just a guess.




Finally, re:

"Then we'll all know whether it's worth continuing so far empty and amazingly one-sided 'conversation'."

and

I don't understand why you would think that your question is relevant, or even "clever".


Okay, I know I've asked about this before, but do the rank insults fall into your "sensible and logical, non-over reactive" arguments, or the "rational, objective and unbiased ones"? And does the fact that lizzie did not insult you figure into the equation? I am, of course, basing this query upon your self proclaimed debating skills, to wit:

"I like to think of myself as just being sensible and logical and not letting over-reactive emotional responses cloud my judgment. I believe in being rational, objective, and as unbiased as possible."

[Dangerously Amused]

159. Jesus, give it a rest!

"I'll ask again - do you even read what you are responding to? What kind of assinine question is that - 'How did they accomplish all that without porn?'?"

Why, it's clearly a sarcastic question. The same argumentative contrivance you have been using in nearly every single post.

This may come as a shock to you Rabrrrrrr, but for all your sarcastic and self righteous howling, lizzie actually AGREES with you that "...researching (when not encouraging illegality), and then discussing the pros and cons of pornography in a classroom of post-pubescent teenagers who are then allowed to form their own INFORMED opinion about pornography is appropriate and okay pedagogy."

Which you would know, had you done a closer reading of the posts.


Can you get over yourself long enough to understand that you both agree on the basic premise?

[Porcupine]

125. They had brothels, servants and slaves like Thomas Jefferson

Ben Franklin and many others have clearly shown. Personnally I think the modern standard where sexual images largely replace sexuall surrogates (prostitutes and "servants") is a healthy direction.

As few as fifty years ago brothels were an important part of the social life of leading male figures in major cities and towns. Now this is completely unnaceptable. When it was acceptable it was completely forbidden to discuss where these men went on friday nights. Should we go back to the "old days" when sex was pure?

[Dangerously Amused]

146. Yes, how nice for you,

that you grew up in a progressive church and learned a healthy attitude toward sex over a lifetime of lessons. But do you understand that not everybody was fortunate enough to have your experience? And for those who haven't, perhaps internet pornography isn't a equally healthy substitute?

I mean, do you get that?

[PassingFair]

123. Just because you equate sex with pornography

...doesn't mean EVERYONE does, or should.
Some people like to keep sex a first hand (no pun intended) experience,
without involving others.
Not everyone needs or wants vicarious and/or voyeuristic experiences.

I'm sorry that real intimacy and voyeurism are inseparable for some people.

[Rabrrrrrr]

124. Where and when did I ever equate healthy sexual attitudes

with pornography?

For fuck's sake, there's a lot of people around here who don't read.

[PassingFair]

138. This is what you wrote:

"Yep, they're probably in denial, and probably have their own stash
or at least dad does. And they are either riddled with shame about their bodies, or at least the mothers are."


So those that don't have their own porno "stash" are in denial, or "riddled" with shame?

For fuck's sake, there's a lot of people around here who don't read what they write....

[mongo]

171. Intelligent discussions on porn

just don't happen in America.

Here's an example of some Senate Testimony (where you might think you could find some intelligent discussion) on the subject -

Good afternoon, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I am Judith Reisman, Ph.D., president of the Institute for Media Education, specializing in the communication effects of images on the brain, mind and memory; fraud in the human sexuality field; and the addictive properties of sexually explicit images, commonly called pornography.

Thanks to the latest advances in neuroscience, we now know that pornographic visual images imprint and alter the brain, triggering an instant, involuntary, but lasting, biochemical memory trail, arguably, subverting the First Amendment by overriding the cognitive speech process. This is true of so-called “soft-core” and “hard-core” pornography. And once new neurochemical pathways are established they are difficult or impossible to delete.

Pornographic images also cause secretion of the body’s “fight or flight” sex hormones. This triggers excitatory transmitters and produces non-rational, involuntary reactions; intense arousal states that overlap sexual lust--now with fear, shame, and/or hostility and violence. Media erotic fantasies become deeply imbedded, commonly coarsening, confusing, motivating and addicting many of those exposed. (See “the Violence Pyramid” at http://www.vbii.org/violence.html) Pornography triggers myriad kinds of internal, natural drugs that mimic the “high” from a street drug. Addiction to pornography is addiction to what I dub erototoxins -- mind-altering drugs produced by the viewer’s own brain.

How does this ‘brain sabotage’ occur? Brain scientists tell us that “in 3/10 of a second a visual image passes from the eye through the brain, and whether or not one wants to, the brain is structurally changed and memories are created – we literally ‘grow new brain’ with each visual experience.”

http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=1343&wit_id=3910

[Dangerously Amused]

152. .

Rabrrrrrr:

"I like to think of myself as just being sensible and logical and not letting over-reactive emotional responses cloud my judgment. I believe in being rational, objective, and as unbiased as possible."



I'm sorry, was this one of your sensible and logical, non-over reactive arguments?

Or one of the rational, objective and unbiased ones?


I can't quite figure out into which description all the nasty sarcasm fits.

[Michigander4Dean]

70. "...and any experience they had with it"

Wow.

[LisaL]

137. What we have here is an adult man, who asked of little 14 year old

girls and boys to share with him their experiences with porn. What exactly should one call such a man?

[Fleshdancer]

94. Could you imagine reading those homework assignments?

8 Reasons why Porn is Harmful:

1. The women wear shoes with heels that are too high. This is bad for their feet.
2. Faking orgasms means you are not being honest with your partner. Lying is bad.
3. Out of the 20 sites I went to, only one had a guy wear a condom. There isn't enough safe sex.
4. There are too many banner ads for incest and something called bestiality. It doesn't sound very healthy.
5. Adults can only have sex if the woman wears pigtails and pretends she's still a teenager.
6. Engaging in porn means you must be double jointed everywhere. Beginners should stretch for an hour so they won't get hurt.
7. Women are only sexy when their breasts are unnaturally inflated and men are only sexy when they have abnormally large penises that never go flaccid.
8. Sex isn't about intimacy, it's about entertainment and profit. When adults say we teenagers shouldn't have sex, what they really mean is that we shouldn't have sex for ourselves. We should only have sex to entertain them and to make them money. Isn't this the reason behind the barely legal concept? I think it is.

[LisaL]

98. I kind of think that is what the teacher was going for.

[WindRavenX]

99. amazing post

:thumbsup:

It amazes me that people have such knee-jerk reactions to discussing pornorgraphy. I believe that this subject should be discussed at an age where teenagers are beginning to explore their sexuality. It shouldn't be a taboo subject.

[LisaL]

101. How are they going to discuss it if they haven't seen it?

Shouldn't they view the subject and then form an opinion? Just discussing what someone else said about the subject is not original thinking.

[WindRavenX]

108. You do realize that most teenagers have had exposure to pornography?

As many DUers have pointed out, the assignment was NOT about going out and looking at pornography. It was about researching the topic and forming your own opinions and gathering facts about it. Now I'll be the first to admit that the assignment was perhaps not worded correctly.

But you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that teenagers at that age have not had some exposure to it before. And I'm one of them.

[supernova]

110. I read my brother's Playboys

when I was 8 or 9, I think. It wasn't a big deal. I really liked the cartoon with little old lady chasing after the young guys. ;-)

And you know, that's pretty tame compared to what's out there now.

[LisaL]

113. And you are incredibly naive to think that

when teacher tells his student to research porn, the only thing they are going to do is to read articles about the subject.

[WindRavenX]

128. I never said that they would not NOT look at porn

Only that they, the students, would be able to write a thorough and complete report without looking at it. That doesn't mean that some would not chose to look at porn as well.

Or they could read erotica.

[Dangerously Amused]

145. Who's naive?

"As many DUers have pointed out, the assignment was NOT about going out and looking at pornography. It was about researching the topic and forming your own opinions and gathering facts about it."

If a teacher assigns teenagers to "research pornography," you are near delusional if you think that most kids will do anything other than use the assignment as a carte blanche "authority" - whether it goes against their parent's wishes or not - to view every kind of porn site to which they can gain access. Admit it, you would have.


Now I'll be the first to admit that the assignment was perhaps not worded correctly."

If you admit that the assignment was not worded correctly, then you are SPECULATING as to what the original intent was and you have NO basis for stating that "the assignment was NOT about going out and looking at pornography." You are so intent upon "winning" this argument that you are twisting the facts to make a point.

[WindRavenX]

155. Where have I said they wouldn't look at porn?

Jesus christ on a cracker, I have never said that they would chose to look at other sources over readily available internet pornography.

How come there has been no admittance that this assignment is drawing from personal experience and is probably an introduction to pornography?

And the intent of the assignment is pretty clear-- the teacher makes that clear in the article.

I'm not intending to "win" any argument. But I don't understand why there is so vehement resistance to this attempt to discuss the impact of pornography with an age group that is and will be continued to be exposed to pornography.

[Dangerously Amused]

160. The vehement response...

...at least, from the posts I've read so far, is NOT to "this attempt to discuss the impact of pornography with an age group that is and will be continued to be exposed to pornography." In fact, every single person who's posted so far, and I myself believe, that the discussion of the effects that pornography has on society with kids this age is good and healthy. No one I have seen so far has even so much as objected to kids this age viewing porn. Nor do I. The vehement objection comes in two areas:


1) Assigning the kids to "research" pornography without making it clear that their research shall NOT include accessing pornography or pornographic internet sites (which are illegal for them to access anyway),

and

2) Assigning the kids to write about their personal, intimate experiences with pornography in a paper for the teacher to read. That is creepy, and I can see NO academic value to that exercise.


Even the teacher admitted that his assignment was inappropriate.

[noamnety]

167. Easy to discuss it even if they haven't seen it

Most papers in health class require research on a subject you don't need to experience.

Research the effects of cigarette smoke.
Research the effectiveness of various types of birth control.
Research the effects of drinking and driving.
Research the effects of marijuana use.
Research the effects of various STDs.

All of those are typical assignments, and the parents don't assume the teacher is demanding that the kids consume cigarettes, get birth control prescriptions, drink and drive, consume drugs, or have unprotected sex. Yet tell them to research the effects of porn, and people somehow assume that means the teacher told the students to become porn consumers.

[Fleshdancer]

117. The problem I have with this assignment...

ok, take the porn factor out and what do you have? You have a teacher telling his students that something is wrong and/or harmful and they must then provide the reasons why. The students were not asked to come to their own conclusions and by setting up the assignment in this way, all they can do is provide reasons why the teacher believes something is harmful. This isn't neccessarily critical thinking. In fact, assignments like this are a no brainer. I called crap like this "busy work" when I was a student.

Now, to discuss the fact that the teacher chose porn instead of sexuality in general just gives me the creeps personally. If my 14 yr. old daughter came home and told me that a male adult wanted her to write down her "experiences with pornography", I would be very concerned. The fact that he wants the students to research HIS hypothesis and then describe their experiences while doing so is not an excercise in critical thinking in my opinion. That little voice inside of me says this assignment is more about what the teacher is interested in learning from the students rather than what the students learn from the assignment.

Perhaps he would have a valid argument if the research had to be conducted ONLY on school computers that had adequate nanny programs installed. If not though, then it would be highly naive of him to believe that his assignment wouldn't put young teenagers in direct contact with pornography.

[Rabrrrrrr]

120. Yes, and that's my only issue with the assignment as well

(see one of my above posts).

It's not good science or critical thinking teaching at all to assign them to find out why it's wrong - that's the whole Meese report agenda. They were not told to go and find out if there was a bad part to porn, or a connection between porn and badness; they were told to find the connection.

[noamnety]

166. That wasn't the assignment

The assignment was to list eight facts about pornography and write their personal views of pornography and any experience they had with it, not to find a connection between porn and badness.

[LisaL]

121. The little voice tells me the exact same thing.

I am thinking he was going to get a lot of enjoyment out of reading that assignment.

[WindRavenX]

127. well, yeah exactly

I don't think any DUers have been giving him a pass on those points you mentioned. It's just a few (or really, just one) poster has a problem with people in general discussing pornography with teenagers. I think most of us do agreee that there is a need to discuss pornography in the context of human sexuality.

[mongo]

172. Best post in the thread!

Thank you!

[Dangerously Amused]

144. I think you're wrong.

Then again, I've seen firsthand too many pedophiles, and I know all to well the way they rationalize these things.

[mitchum]

129. If he was assigning them to research the various FINDINGS on the...

effects of pornography, there is no problem.
If he was assigning them to consume pornography, there is a serious problem. He is advocating their breaking of the law. And that is something for which ANY teacher can be dismissed.
Whether one thinks the particular laws concerning minors and the consumption of pornography is ridiculous or unjust is irrelevant.

[GirlinContempt]

130. I don't think it tastes very good

[mitchum]

132. Maybe you're too old...

it DOES taste great when you're a kid. In the same way as Kool Aid or Play Doh :)

[GirlinContempt]

134. I dunno

it's kinda got that bitter ink aftertaste, the staples get caught in your throat

[ContraBass Black]

131. This sounds way too vague.

And this is something to be specific on.

[mitchum]

133. What sounds too vague?

His instructions or my interpretations?

[ContraBass Black]

136. His instructions.

[noamnety]

168. His instructions were too vague? Or the article's summary of them?

The article had exactly two sentences on the assignment. When he gave the assignment, do you think that's all he said about it - just those two sentences?

Or do you think he discussed the assignment at length, and the 12 sentence long article didn't fully cover his entire lecture/discussion?

[Wetzelbill]

135. hell, I would've gotten an A on that one. nt