ACK! Please help identify a puddle under my car

[grace0418]

I own a 2001 Subaru Outback and recently discovered a small puddle near the front driver's side wheel. At first we saw it when it had been rainy so we thought it was just from that wheel going through the giant mud puddle at the end of our driveway. But it's dry now and I noticed it again in the parking lot at work (we haven't driven this car for several days).

It's not oily, it's not colorful (like coolant). In fact, it looks like water. When I googled for information, it sounded most like the condensation that comes off your AC. Only problem is that it's January in Chicago and, while it's been quite warm, I haven't had the AC running at all.

Anybody have any ideas before I call my mechanic? The car is otherwise running just fine.

[grace0418]

1. I should add that I did not have my defrost on this morning.

I know sometimes turning on the defrost also engages the AC. It wasn't very cold and the windows weren't fogging up so I didn't have anything running except the car itself and the radio.

[bonito]

2. Try this forum

link http://www.forumsubaru.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15 I think you'll find a better chance there. good luck.

[grace0418]

4. Thanks, I will. But this forum gets more traffic so I thought

I'd give it a shot. Thank you for the link.

[Kali]

3. It may still be water -

did you touch it? check to see if it is oily - also check your radiator and the overflow container - something could be leaking or it may just be overfilled.

break fluid is not colored but would be a bit oily feeling.

[grace0418]

11. I didn't touch it but it definitely didn't look oily at all

I suppose I should double-check though.

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. Brake fluid is clear, feels rather like baby oil

and leaves skin feeling like it's been in diluted acid.

Since the leak is near a wheel, my first suspicion would be a bad wheel cylinder — easy to spot with the wheel off, since one of the end cups will be improperly seated.

[grace0418]

16. Ooo, that sounds expensive and you sound smart.

I like the windshield wiper fluid leak better. ;) But seriously, thanks for the advice. I like to be prepared.

[Oeditpus Rex]

20. If it's just a wheel cylinder

a reputable mechanic would probably soak you for around $300.

They don't all need to be changed when one goes out, nor do you need a brake job. The rotor and pads should be inspected while you're at it, though.

I'm not smart. I've just worked on cars a lot — mostly older Chevies, so bear in mind things have changed since the '60s and '70s.

I understand wheels are round now, for example.

[grace0418]

21. I disagree. You ARE smart. You're at DU, right?

:) Anyway, *if it is* something like this, should we not be driving it? I was planning to run a few errands after work but is it something that can cause a lot of damage if left alone? Obviously whatever it is has been going on for a week or more, we just didn't know it when there was more moisture on the ground.

I can call the mechanic and get the car in tomorrow but Saturday sure would be easier. I just don't know how serious that is.

[Oeditpus Rex]

23. *If it is* a bad wheel cylinder

it's probably okay to drive for a short while, particularly with modern brake systems. It may pull a bit to the right in a hard stop, but that'd be about it. I wouldn't put off getting it fixed, though, because the leak will get worse and you could lose all your brake fluid. (That happened to me once — not from a wheel cylinder, but from some shoddy work at a shop. When the pedal goes to the floor with no pressure, one tends to panic.)

I blew a left rear cylinder once, and the only thing that happened was that wheel would lock up even under normal braking because fluid got on the brake shoe. (It's not sticky to the touch, but get it on asbestos and apply friction and it's a different story.) But that was with drum brakes, and I'm assuming your car has discs, which would throw off any fluid that leaked onto them as they rotate.

And good point about DU. :thumbsup:

[grace0418]

32. Thanks O Rex

You are helpful and kind. I will take it in this weekend.

[jmowreader]

25. How about a disreputable one?

If a wheel cylinder is leaking on a front brake, you need:

* a rebuilt caliper with a one-man brake bleeder valve on it and a new set of bolts to hold it on
* a set of tools, including flare wrenches and a torque wrench
* a new set of brake pads
* a jack and four jackstands
* three more one-man bleeder valves
* a gallon of brake fluid, a funnel, a drain pan and a length of quarter-inch fuel hose
* a drain pan
* a 16-ounce jar of Pace Picante Sauce and some tortilla chips
* a service manual for your car
* a small, willing helper with lots of leg strength and another helper (the second helper is optional)
* some blue Loctite. DO NOT, WHATEVER YOU DO, GET RED LOCTITE--YOU CAN'T BREAK IT LOOSE WITHOUT A BLOWTORCH! The kind you want says "medium strength" on it.
* about a day, if you've never worked on brakes before

Step 1 is to eat the picante sauce. Pace picante sauce jars make the best brake bleeding jars because of their shape. Wash out the jar after it's empty.

Step 2 is to buy the rest of this shit. Rebuilt calipers don't come with one-man brake bleeder valves (which are designed so that air can't get sucked up into the system while you have the valve open) so get the guy at the parts place to put one on for you. They cost about two dollars. You can use three kinds of brake fluid--DOT 3 (only get this if they're out of everything else), DOT 4 (for most uses, the preferred product) and DOT 5.1, which is synthetic. Don't get DOT 5; that's a silicone brake fluid that will not mix with any other kind.

Step 3 is to loosen up the lugnuts on all four wheels, jack up and support the car, and remove the wheels. Next, stick your drain pan under the brake that's screwed up and unhook the brake hose from it using a flare wrench. (What is this flare wrench jmo speaks of? Imagine taking a six-point box-end wrench and sawing one of the flats out of it. That's a flare wrench. It's designed to not round off flare fittings.) Point it at the drain pan. Half the brake fluid in your car will wind up in the pan. (You've got two brake circuits in your car--one handles the front right and left rear wheels, the other handles the front left and right rear. This is so that if one circuit loses all the fluid, you can still stop the car.) Go to the other front wheel, unhook its hose and drain the rest of the fluid from your car. (You're supposed to change your brake fluid every two years. No one ever does.)

Step 4 is to take the broken caliper off your car. Don't throw it. When you buy a rebuilt car part you pay a "core charge"; when you take the old caliper back, you get the core charge back. This is so they have parts to rebuild. Put the new caliper on with the new bolts. (You know how people talk about "torquing" bolts? What you're really doing is slightly stretching them; spring action holds them in place. After a while, bolts under this strain weaken. Replace them with new bolts.) Change the brake pads on the front axle--both wheels.

Step 5 is to replace the other three bleeder valves with the one-man bleeders you bought. Tighten all of them EXCEPT the one on the right-rear wheel.

Step 6 is to put a little bit of brake fluid into the Pace jar. Put the fuel hose on the right-rear bleeder, stick hose into Pace jar (be sure the end is submerged in fluid), and put the helpers into position: one sits in the car on the driver's seat, the other stands next to the raised hood with the gallon of brake fluid in hand. Fill the fluid reservoir with brake fluid (what the funnel is for) and position yourself next to the right-rear wheel. Inform the brake fluid person that their job is just to keep refilling the reservoir as it needs it. Now go sit on the ground next to the Pace jar and have the driver's seat helper start pumping the brakes. Brake fluid will start coming out. It will be black and full of bubbles. When it is clear and bubble-free, that wheel is bled. Tighten the bleeder valve, remove the hose, dump the Pace jar into the drain pan, put a little clean fluid in the jar, and move to the left-rear wheel. Do the same things there. Next is the right front, and finally the left front. (This sequence is because you're moving from "farthest wheel from the master cylinder" to "closest one.") The whole car is bled when you can step on the brake pedal and get about half an inch of travel before you feel resistance.

Step 7 is to put the wheels back on, torquing the lug nuts to 90 lb-ft, putting the car back on the ground, checking the brake travel once the engine's been started to see if it's right, and finally test-driving it. As a final piece de resistance, take the lid off the fluid reservoir and just pump the living shit out of your brakes for about a minute. This will get any residual bubbles out. It will also get brake fluid all over everything, so be careful to wipe it up after you're done.

Step 8 is cleanup: bathe, pick up all the shit you left around, throw away the Pace jar if you don't have a toolroom to keep it in, turn the brake fluid in to the local household hazmat day and the caliper in to the car parts place.

[grace0418]

31. You're sweet. You know, I'm not girly about many things. I'm

quite handy in fact. I own and use power tools, I've built things out of wood, I've repaired appliances, I can set up and trouble shoot my computer. Heck, I can even run my vcr! ;) But I just don't feel comfortable messing with cars. I don't know what it is. I hate that about myself too because I really, REALLY, *REALLY* hate when mechanics treat me like an idiot because I'm a woman.

Anyway, thanks for the excellent instructions. You don't live anywhere near Chicago do you? ;)

[necso]

5. If it falls in the same place,

then put a pan underneath the car and catch whatever it is.

But expect that it might be contaminated with engine/road gunk.

Oh, and check all of the car's major fluids every day (I wouldn't worry about "sealed" stuff in the first pass) -- or even every time that you drive the car.

[grace0418]

10. I will try that tonight.

Thank you.

[flvegan]

6. Windshield washer fluid?

Though a usually a light blue, it may be watered down, and/or appear to be colorless on pavement.

If it's not oily, and it's not coolant, and it's not from the a/c, snow or rain, then that would be my guess.

[grace0418]

9. Good point.

I will check for that. I like the sound of that because it's far cheaper and less dangerous than other kinds of leaks. ;)

[leftofthedial]

7. I'm sorry, but that is what's left of your neighbor's cat

:-(

[grace0418]

8. evil

you are evil

[leftofthedial]

14. thank you

:evilgrin:

[Thtwudbeme]

13. I have a '98 Subaru, and am the Queen of Recognizing Leaks

at this point. You might want to get used to that title...Subarus are awesome but, they leak ALL THE TIME.

How many miles?

My initial thought; Water pump...if you have over 100,000 miles, this is a very real possibility.

[grace0418]

15. Not quite 75,000 miles.

Of course, who knows how the car was treated before we owned it. We bought it from Carmax and got it checked out but you never know. I hope it's not anything too expensive. Thanks for the support though.

[Thtwudbeme]

17. I sent you a PM!

I adore Subarus...There is a whole group of us that are like a cult!

It's just so weird!

Stephanie

[grace0418]

18. So far we love ours too.

It's a blast to drive and I really fits all our needs. The only complaint I would have is the mileage. If/when they come out with hybrid Outbacks I will dance with joy.

[Thtwudbeme]

19. Oh my gosh! Michael and I were just talking about that!

BTW---I posted your question on my Subie site that I visit every day!

My name there is "Thtwudbeme" also---I PM'd you the link--

Stephanie

[grace0418]

22. Thank you, you're sweet.

Would you mind sending me a link to the question? I'm curious to know how serious this is. Thanks dear.

[northzax]

24. only a '98? newbie.

I'm still tooling around in my '90 Legacy, it's a fabulous car (I got it after I blew a cylinder on my '87 after 224 thousand miles) although I need a new clutch right about now...

[RebelOne]

26. Sounds like transmission fluid leak to me.

I have had a few transmission fluid leaks before.

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. Smell it.

Few vital fluids in a car are clear. Brake fluid, about the only one, is light yellow, but might look clear. Brake fluid smells nothing like water. Dip a napkin in it and take a whiff.

If you are leaking brake fluid, then you will have a low fluid level in your master cylinder resevoir. Your owner's manual will tell you how to check that. If you have a leak, it would be all over the inner surfaces of your wheel and tire, so look for a greasy film there.

Your AC compressor might be operating in defrost or bi-level modes. So, even if you did not use the defrost, the compressor might still be on. Sometimes the manual will describe when the compressor is expected to be in operation.

[ET Awful]

28. In many cars, the AC compressor kicks on automatically when you run the

defroster (intentionally to reduce condensation inside the car).

Jsut a thought.

[Metta]

29. Just what I was thinking.

nt.

[ET Awful]

30. D'OH but I missed the first reply

:P

Oh well, I'm out of ideas.

[grace0418]

34. That's okay

Thanks for offering your advice anyway! :hi:

[grace0418]

33. *UPDATE*

So when I went out to my car after work I brought some white paper towels and a plastic bag, figuring I could soak up the spill and take a look at it, touch it, smell it, etc. And the puddle was totally gone. :shrug: So either it was a figment of my imagination or the puddle dried up. If it dried up it's most likely water or something very close to it (like windshield wiper fluid), right? Anything oily wouldn't evaporate, right?

[Kali]

35. Or it's empty...

sorry, don't want to worry you, but do you know how to check the regular under-the-hood fluid levels? It could really pay to make sure everything is topped off.

[Whoa_Nelly]

36. My car made a puddle of water near the front tire

And it turned out to be water that was part of...ummm...can't remember exactly what, but I had to fill that fluid part back up to drive it in for repair....and, not to scare you, but it was not cheap. However, it WAS important to get it fixed ASAP, and driving around without that water my engine would have conked...

Sorry can't ne more specific...am not a car mechanic type of person.

Hope you just get your car in to be checked out.

[Gold Metal Flake]

37. It evaporated.

That's a good sign. Most likely it was condensation from the AC system.

If you have a detergent in your wiper fluid, that would leave a sticky residue.

Engine coolant leaves a residue, as it's about half chemical.

Oil and brake fluid would take a long time to evaporate, and leaves a lot of residue.

I doubt that this is a problem. :hi: