You're single, and you have the opportunity to be with a married person.

[hiaasenrocks]

[Ariana Celeste]

1. 50-50 if you know they're married

also depends on the circumstances. if they are married but separated and both seeing other people (or both agree to go their different ways), I think that's perfectly fine.

[Radio_Lady]

56. What if the married (man) is 32 and the single (woman) is only 17 ???

Does age make a difference?

[Ariana Celeste]

58. Also depends on the circumstances.

Is the single 17 yr old emancipated and therefore a legal adult? Or is she a normal 17 yr old?
If the 17 yr old girl is emancipated and therefore legal, and the married man and his wife are separated and agreeable to seeing other people, then that's fine in my eyes.

[Radio_Lady]

62. The 17 year old is NOT "emancipated" legally. Just a normal girl

going to college funded by her parents.

The married man and his wife were married from BEFORE the 17 year old was born, and still living together.

Now what?

Who's responsible?

[Ariana Celeste]

66. In that scenario,

If the girl knows he is married, I still say some of the guilt lies with her, but most of it with the man. That's just my opinion; I feel that if you know someone is married or even just in a relationship you need to step away.

If she doesn't know, than of course 100% fault is on the man. And he'd obviously be guilty of a crime as well. (If sex is involved)

[Radio_Lady]

73. She did know, but they both kept it going for a very long time.

At the end, it was devastating. 'Nuf said.

My advice to single people, of whatever sex? Stick with other single people.
Ask to see final signed papers if you date a divorced person.
And these days, I'd insist on HIV testing also. Really! Even people, men and women, in my age group (65+) can get it from unprotected sex.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[swag]

2. You mean fuck a married person, or have a cup of coffee with them?

[hiaasenrocks]

3. Fucking. Maybe coffee, too.

[swag]

18. Thanks. I was just wondering if the single person could get a cup of mojo

too.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Thanks. I hate it when people use stilly euphemisms

"make love" or "be with".

Especially in questions of ethics such as this. Why can't people just come out and say what the hell they mean?

"You are single and have a chance to fuck someone who is smarried..."

[hiaasenrocks]

8. Did you really doubt what the question meant?

Why would there be any moral question about having coffee with someone? Why would I have said "cheating" in the poll answers?

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. There are many forms of cheating; there are many forms of "being with"

Why not just be precise? Especially in ethical questions, the more detail, the better.

[hiaasenrocks]

13. Would your answer differ if I had said

the two people in question

a) engaged in oral sex
b) engaged in intercourse
c) engaged in intimate kissing

Obviously the question was about sex, so now we're just talking degrees here. Which of the above do you forgive and which don't you?

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. Well, there are a few things here:

first, the question was NOT obviously about sex. I had a pretty good inkling, but it wasn't specified, which is why the question had to be asked if you meant sex.

Second, we don't have enough parameters anyway. What was the relationship in the marriage - was it an open one? Or closed? How was the marriage - seemingly strong and good, or on the rocks, or already into divorce proceedings? What's the relationship between the single person and the married person - long time friendship, former spouse, or someone just met at the coffee shop, or something else?

Third, your initil question was about who incurs guilt; but now your question is about what kind of sexual contact is forgivable. These are two entirely different species of question.

But, ultimately, the only thing that really matters is how your cousin feels about it - if she feels hurt and betrayed, then the sexual encounter was a bad thing. And as for guilt, I follow this rule: we are all responsible for our own actions and ONLY our own actions. No matter how much we might be tempted or lured by someone else (though if forced through violence or threat of violence, that's different), or by something else, the responsibility for a decision always rests SOLELY on our own shoulders.

[hiaasenrocks]

29. It doesn't look, so far, that too many

people had trouble understanding and answering the question. And there have been some good answers.

You're right about my initial question. And that's really the only question that matters, to me. The reason I asked about the degrees is because you brought it up. I didn't change the question. I took the bait and continued with this line of questioning.

Thanks for that final paragraph. That's the type of answer I was interested in.

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. Took the bait? What bait? You think I was baiting you?

Sheesh.

All I was looking for was some clarification to the question so that it could be answered knowledgably. You've received some answers, yes, but without the situation fully explained, many of those anwers could be wrong for this situation. A nebulous ethical question like this cannot truly be answered, because different situations will require different answers (e.g., the answer is different if the married couple are one day away from their divorce being final, than if the spouse who was cheated on had no inclination that there was anything wrong at all, than if it were a few hours after their wedding).

And your question from "who is guilty" to "what is forgivable" is a mighty big switch, and very different questions. "Who is guilty" is a question answerable from the outside; "what is forgivable" is answerable only by the person who is in a position to forgive.

[hiaasenrocks]

34. Follow the thread.

My question about the different sexual acts, and what you would forgive, was a direct result of your post about the varying degrees of "being with." In other words, my question was about your assertion.

I've already explained that, in the post you just responded to. And it wasn't a "mighty big switch" from the original question, because I never changed or retreated from the original question.

The question in the original post is the one I'm interested in, and you've answered it. Thank you.

As Bill O'LIEly says, "I'll let you have the last word." :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

36. But you're still stuck in thinking that "being with" must be sexual.

And it doesn't have to be. It could be many different things, and all of them could be considered cheating depending on the situation.

And I haven't answered your question as to who is/are the guilty parties; nor have I said what kind of guilt it is that they might incur, assuming that there is any guilt to be incurred.

[bridgit]

82. inconsequential, i am in the theater and with many married people...

though many of them are themselves gay or lesbian; the term is not merely moot it is: inconsequential

1. Lacking importance.
1. Not following from premises or evidence; illogical.

n.
A triviality.

[LeftyMom]

4. Both parties are responsible for thier behavior

Of course.

[GOPisEvil]

6. This is the correct answer.

Even if both parties are single and available, they are responsible for their behavior.

[hiaasenrocks]

23. Thanks for the straight-forward answer. n/t

[salin]

35. agreed

[supernova]

7. No I wouldn't

not because I'd be helping them cheat. I am, but that's where the 50/50 part comes in. The other reason I wouldn't is that they are not, despite all protestations to the contrary about being separated or seeing other people, genuinely free of the spouse.

I made the effort to make that transition, got all done nice and legal, I would expect the same.

[Robb]

9. There's one person you look at in the mirror in the morning

One thing good I can say about my own life is I can look that handsome devil in the eye. :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. Why not just make it personal and to the point -

I'm sure what you mean to ask is, "I am single and have a chance to have sex with a married person - with whom does the guilt lie - me, that person, or both of us, because I want to think I have no guilt but I'm not so sure it's a good idea, so I'm asking DU in the hopes that it will come down that all the guilt is with her/him".

[hiaasenrocks]

12. Well, I would, if that were the case.

But I'm asking because I have a cousin whose husband cheated on her. She is talking to me about it, and we have a disagreement about responsiblity levels.

So, before you assume too much...well, you know...

And, to your question above, how could you have any doubt about what the question means when in your response you said, "Especially in questions of ethics such as this." Seems to me you understood the question just fine.

But thanks for your input.

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. Well, you left much room for assumption.

As to your other question, clearly, even in the way you worded it, the question is an ethical question. It is an unanswerable ethical question because it lacks sufficient detail to make a judgment, plus the choices are not the only viable choices. But it is obviously and clearly an ethical question.

[hiaasenrocks]

19. I never said it wasn't a question of ethics.

Of course it is. Otherwise, why ask it? My point is that you knew it was a question of ethics, and most people wouldn't think there was an ethical problem with having coffee with a married person.

THAT would have been a better call for assumption (as if it was needed) than assuming I was asking for myself. Can't the question be answered without having to include the "who"?

But this tangent is getting ridiculous.

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. And I never said that you said it wasn't an ethical question.

I am agreeing and admitting that, yes, clearly it is an ethical question.

The clarification as to your term "be with" DID need to be defined. Sex is not the only form of cheating, and the term "be with" does not mean only having sex. It could be emotional cheating, financial cheating, psychological cheating. And even a cup of coffee, depending on the spouse, could be considered cheating.

Which is why I also said, in the post I made just a minute or two ago to your other question, the only important thing here is how your cousin feels about it - if she felt it was betrayal and cheating, whatever form it took, then to her it was, and the cheating is real.

[hiaasenrocks]

32. Okay. Thanks.

[nini]

14. both, but the married person carries more blame

want to screw around? then get divorced. You have no business being married if you don't want to be monogamous.

[supernova]

17. 'Xactly

:thumbsup:

[hiaasenrocks]

26. Thanks.

That's a good position, I think.

[raccoon]

78. I second that emotion. nt

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. Did it once, long time ago

Ain't neeeeeever gonna do it again. Just isn't worth it.

[Left Is Write]

20. I did have that opportunity, several times.

In all but one case, I knew the person was married, and I refused to aid and abet any of them in cheating on his spouse.

If a man wants to cheat on his wife, he will, but he won't get any help from me.

[LynzM]

21. You made no vows or promises to that person's spouse

And while I'll say it's a crappy thing to do to be the 'enabler', so to speak, the responsibility for keeping whatever vows and promises made lies with the person who actually made those promises, IMO.

[RetroLounge]

24. I say it's a 50/50 thing

My spouse will get the divorce and 50% of my shit, and when I see her lover, she gets 50% of her fucking teeth knocked out...

or would that be wrong?

RL

[lizziegrace]

45. I wanted to do the same

(knock her teeth out)

It's definitely a 50/50 thing. And anyone who gives the sob story about the spouse not understanding them, they're planning to divorce, yadda yadda. Sorry, but until the divorce actually happens, you're still married. And anyone who goes along with it deserves what happens next. Test drives are only for new cars.

Sorry, but this really hits a nerve.

[Metta]

25. If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.

Plus, the karma of having it happen to you further down the road is always invigorating and uplifting. Why isn't there an irony smiley?

[hfojvt]

28. I think 70-30 should be an option

or 80-20.

I am not sure if I would feel any guilt at all, but I'd be very nervous. Most husbands can break me in two like a pencil :hide: and the rest of them might have automatic weapons or hummers.

[hiaasenrocks]

31. I should have included those options.

Or something close anyway. nini's answer is pretty much the same, I think.

[philosophie_en_rose]

30. The married person broke their vows, not you.

However, if that person can't be faithful to someone, there's no reason to believe that he or she'd be faithful to you.

Think of it this way. Say that an incredibly sexy, smart, liberal brazillionaire insisted on romancing you. If you say no, then that person either respects your choice or becomes a stalker. The married person has the right and the obligation to disengage, to inform the other person of the marriage, and to honor their spouse. The brazillionaire has the obligation to respect the right of the married person to reject him or her.

[MrSlayer]

37. I've been there and I wouldn't do it.

I don't like making a jerkoff out of people and that's what you'd be doing to this person's spouse.

[Deja Q]

38. Only if they gave me a solid reason for doing so.

I'm single.

I don't get much.

I've kept clear of married people who I know have a purely physical interest in me.

But the end of the world is nigh. And if they make an initiative, I may not say 'no'. Especially if they voice the same concerns.

We only live once.

And monogamy and civility only work when a society is stable. Ours is anything but stable, and I'd rather enjoy what time has left.

In all honesty, I don't know WHAT to think anymore. Actually I do... and it's nothing about anything I've said here in this post.

[tjdee]

40. You know what, though? They WOULD give you a solid reason.

That's what people don't get.

If I'm single, and a married guy hits on me, he is not going to say "My marriage is pretty good, but I just want to have non-committed hot sex with you from time to time."

He's going to say his marriage isn't working, or that he's only there for the kids, or that his wife is a bitch and spends all his money. And he's going to make it believable.

That's yet another reason I can't really fault a single who gets mixed up with a cheater. The single only knows what the cheater tells them.

[Deja Q]

42. You should read the personal ads I've been reading...

I could link to a site containing no less than 7 "happily married" men (and 2 women!) looking for fun action on the side because they're not gettin' it at home.

And, no, I didn't answer them or responded to their - um - inquiries. I probably still wouldn't. Just like I don't know, even when admitting my fears of the future.

The world is made up of all types. All of which have one thing in common: I don't understand any of them.

[raccoon]

80. Absolutely, tjdee,

"He's going to say his marriage isn't working, or that he's only there for the kids, or that his wife is a bitch and spends all his money."

And the single can suggest that married person and spouse go to marriage counselling.

[tjdee]

39. It kills me when the "cheated on" brings the "other" into the equation.

It is one of the biggest pet peeves I have.

If I'm married, and my husband cheats on me, it is my husband's fault, and it'd be my husband who catches hell. The other person is irrelevant.

And for full disclosure reasons, I had a very complicated situation with a former flame who kissed me while his girlfriend was in another room. She took him back, and then I guess to prove how cool she was, or that she "won", started stalking me for about a year (for one kiss!). That is the height of stupidity and wasted time. HER BOYFRIEND was the one talking me up, etc. We had nothing to do with each other.

Edited to add that obviously marriage is a very different thing, and had they been married at the time the entire situation probably wouldn't have happened.

[lizziegrace]

46. I still believe they both share fault

My ex's affair knew me and my daughter. If she believed his lines about our marriage going down the tubes, she could have waited and helped him pick up the pieces. (poor baby...) She called my house, demanded that I put him on the phone. He violated my trust and my marriage and she was his accomplice. She knew us and didn't give a damn.

I'll stop now. this is not the thread for me to be posting on.

[tjdee]

50. Well, your situation is slightly different.

When someone places themselves directly in the path of the cheated on partner, such as calling your home, that's crossing the line. Then, as they say, "it's on".

But that's the thing--she BELIEVED him. She was snookered. I know you probably don't want to hear much more about what she was going through, so I'll leave it at that. I'm sorry you had to go through all of that through no fault of your own because of two people who couldn't control themselves, and it had to suck a lot.
I appreciate your civility.

[lizziegrace]

54. I agree

If my ex had told her he was divorced or never married, I wouldn't find fault with her. And I guess with age and experience, I'm less likely to fall for the sob stories.

Sorry to lose it on my post.

:hug:

[tjdee]

59. You totally didn't!

You were so very cool.
:pals:

[enigmatic]

41. 50/50

And if the single person knows that person is married and still has an affair w/ them, there as scummy as the cheating spouse IMO..

[tjdee]

43. How?

If a single person is told that the marriage is basically over, and that they're only married for XYZ.... is he/she as "scummy"?

In the affairs I've been privy to hear about, as I told HypnoToad above, the cheater is rarely up front about the condition of the marriage. If he/she were, a lot of "others" would steer clear for the obvious reasons.

[enigmatic]

44. that's the thing

You just said "if the were up-front"; nobody who is cheating tells the other person involved the truth about this, so why believe anything they say about it? If they are lying about why they are cheating, that's a pretty good idea of the kind of person they are to begin with.

[tjdee]

47. But they don't know they're lying.

I think the inclination is to believe that the cheater is being truthful (although, if he's lying to his wife, how do you know he's not lying to you?)

They think here's a good looking, kind, whatever guy/girl who's in a crappy situation. They think "I don't want to miss my chance at love." They think "There's so much pain in his/her eyes." Or "he/she will see how great I am at loving them, and they'll leave."

People will allow for a lot. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. I concur

Most cheaters are so narcissistic they only think it's cheating when everyone else does it...when *they* do it...it is for good cause but when others do it to them, it has nothing to do with them.

I've always held the belief that messing with other people's relationships is hell on one's karma...

[enigmatic]

70. I'm a big believer in Karma

It may be slow sometimes, but it does come around..

[Dukkha]

48. hmmmm

I'm in this exact same predicament right now. When the question is asked is the same as someone looking for justification to go ahead with it. I'd elaborate more on it but I am at work right now and she is here.

[spacelady]

49. The interesting thing is when the spouse that has been cheated upon

kills the "other person" & they get off for a "crime of passion" and the cheater just cries crocodile tears.

[tjdee]

51. God its so ridiculous when you see the two going at it...

whenever I happen to catch any of the talk shows, it's always two women arguing and coming to blows over the cheater, who's sitting in between them looking like the friggin Duke of Earl.

:puke:

[spacelady]

52. Yeah, that cheater loves the attention. n/t

[tyedyeto]

53. Another option to the poll should have been

Damn, you're married... go fly a kite - I don't help a married person cheat.

[DainBramaged]

55. 2 words I learned years ago, walk away. Ends the problem.

[Radio_Lady]

63. Yes, those are the truest words, DB. Easy to say, but very hard to do.

[Redstone]

57. I turn down the opportunity.

I did that many more times than once, when I was single.

Redstone

[lizziegrace]

60. When my ex remarried

I asked who should get the sympathy card? They were both guilty and I give it 2-3 years, tops.

:evilgrin:

[BlueIris]

61. The person with the commitment is the one responsible for maintaining it.

However, I've always felt that in certain circumstances, like, say, a friendship between the 'single' and the spouse of the 'married,' the single person might bear the weight of responsibility for hurting his/her friend--though not necessarily for the ruination of their commitment. In my opinion, that is still on the shoulders of the 'married' and his or her partner. There are other circumstances in which I don't think the 'single' can play smiling innocent as regards what he or she did with the married, but that's the first one I thought of.

I guess I have to post though that because on its face, I would doubt the sincerity, stability and potential enjoyability of sleeping with someone who was married, for so many reasons, (why is he doing this? how many times has he done this? if he admits he will lie/is lying to his spouse about the encouter what is he lying to me about and why?) I don't see myself choosing to sleep with someone I know to be married.

[liberalhistorian]

64. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

NO NO NO! Not only is it just plain wrong, it's Trouble with a capital T, guaranteed.

[DanCa]

65. there are three kinds of women that i wont go out with.

under age married and those that smell like ben gay. The rest is all well and good.

[Bryan]

68. I'd never knowingly sleep with a married person

I find it vaguely skeevy and unethical, as if I'm contributing to another person's already bad marriage.

[XemaSab]

69. You don't do it.

The real kicker is that the other person is ALWAYS going to place their spouse FIRST.

No matter how stupid the spouse's errand, or how special YOUR date with the person, the stupid errand is going to be placed first. Every last time.

And after a while, it just makes you bitter. It's not worth it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. No they're not..they're going to place THEMSELVES first

and not in a good way. They are a person who has already said it is fine for someone they claim they love to suffer so that they may be instantly gratified. In my view, people who cheat and the person who cheats with them are both assholes who have no respect for the commitments they make or the commitments of others.

[XemaSab]

72. You're right

but for them, their life with their spouse is what's in their own self-interest.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. i have never slept with a married man

but i dont blame people who do. they are not the people who took the vows.

[NMMNG]

75. Other: The guilt/responsibility lies with the gays getting married in MA

After all, they are destroying traditional marriages all over the nation.

:rofl:



Seriously though, the guilt/responsibility lies with both parties, assuming the single person knows the other party is married.

[JVS]

76. I should not expect to be well liked by the married person's spouse.

OTOH, the husbands main beef should be with his cheating wife.

[eyesroll]

77. Well, I'm dating a married man.

He lives 70 miles from his ex, they've been separated for two and a half years, and their divorce is amicable but taking forever. His ex is in a new relationship too. We all had Christmas dinner together with their daughter. I'm assuming that's not what you mean.

The married person is responsible for cheating. The single person is responsible for sleeping with someone s/he knows is married. If the betrayed spouse wants to blame someone, s/he should blame the cheater. But it's easier to blame the "other man/woman," because there's less (and often no) emotional attachment to that person.

[MissMillie]

79. You should never feel guilty for something that someone else does

So I think the response is worded incorrectly. I can only control myself, and should only feel guilty for the things that I do wrong.

I would feel guilty for making myself available to someone who shouldn't be available to me. That's the only thing I can control.

[AngryAmish]

81. Then you are both scum

[Deep13]

83. Notice the poll is phrased in terms of feeling and not doing.

My response is don't do it, not do it and figure out how to apportion the guilt.

[bridgit]

84. it is actually a form of double negative; in the 1st module, YOU...

should feel sorry for the married person cheating; in the 2nd, ALL of the responsibility resides with the married person.

i say the pollster themselves have cheated on a married person with what seemed like great freedom & liberty at the time, found it somehow less than satisfying for likely a host of reasons, to include a shit-storm that may likely have occurred naming them and others by name in public etc., and are seeking absolution here, via poll numbers :shrug: for their own guilty thoughts for having done so.