So did anyone else watch Oprah beat the living hell out of James Frey?

[DarienComp]

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen her so pissed off. She also made a pretty decent apology for her ridiculous defense of Frey when she called-in to Larry King.

You can watch clips of it at Salon.

edit: just click through the ad.

[2bfree]

1. I thought it was well deserved.

Good for her, but boy that guy looked like a whipped dog afterwards. Hope he doesn't go back to drugs.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

53. Go back to drugs?

I don't think he was ever really on drugs.

Maybe some prep school dabbling in pot and coke, but I don't think he actually had raging addictions or problems as described in his "memoirs".

[weeble_wobble]

2. He must've felt 2" tall after that.

And deservedly so.

[hiaasenrocks]

3. Hell, yes.

I rarely watch her show but I saw a commercial for it, so I had to see it.

Awesome. Just perfect. She really nailed that sorry liar.

As an aspiring writer (of fiction) this story just pisses me off. Had he published it as fiction, fine, great, congrats, good book. But he's just another liar in our world.

[DarienComp]

4. I've got it saved on my TiVo. it's great television.

:-)

[hiaasenrocks]

7. It is. I'm really glad I caught it.

I'll admit, I never really watched much of her show, or really understood what the fascination was. I guess that's a typical "guy thing." Okay, I plead guilty.

But I have to tell you, I have immense respect for her after seeing that show today. And it wasn't just because I shared her view, either. I thought it took a lot of guts for her to say she had made a mistake, was wrong, etc. (Even though I wouldn't put any of the blame on her.) She took responsibility for being duped. Wow. What courage that took. What class. You can tell she is a woman who values truth over all else. So I have a new person to respect in this country. And it feels good.

[DarienComp]

9. totally

name the last sincere apology that you have heard from a public figure, whether in politics, news, or entertainment. "To any who might have been offended... mistakes were made... IF i did anything to upset you, i apologize..."

Nobody takes responsibility, so it was really refreshing to see Oprah not only say "I'm sorry" but to address her critics and say, "You're right." Now when is the last time you've ever seen something like that on TV, and in such a direct and unequivocating manner?

[hiaasenrocks]

12. Can't think of one.

We're definitely on the same page there, DarienComp.
:toast:

[seaglass]

56. Richard Clarke n/t

[Crazy Guggenheim]

5. Big change from a couple of weeks ago when she was still defending

him on Larry king.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[DarienComp]

6. it's good that she made that apology...

with the way reporters have been digging up dirt on James Frey, Oprah would have lost a lot more credibility if she held on for, say, another two weeks.

[hiaasenrocks]

8. Yeah. She addressed that.

Apparently new things came to light between that Larry King show and today's show. I didn't get the feeling that she was in CYA mode today (not that you said she was). She seemed genuinely pissed off.

[DarienComp]

10. she definitely felt personally harmed

understandably.

[amitten]

26. .

:popcorn:

[bigwillq]

11. I'm sick of this story.

Fuck James Frey. Fuck Oprah. :mad:

[DarienComp]

13. noted

[bigwillq]

14. Sorry but I feel

the impending Alito Confirmation vote or the fact that 2300 troops and 300 billion dollars are down the drain in Iraq is more important than Oprah and Frey but for some reason that story (Oprah) is the only thing in the news.

[DarienComp]

16. well, that's why i posted it in the Lounge

:eyes:

[bigwillq]

17. And you have every right too.

Glad to see what's important. :eyes:

[DarienComp]

20. are you somehow suggesting

that i'm not adequately distressed over Iraq and Samuel Alito?

i don't see how my original post suggested anything of the sort...

[bigwillq]

27. Not suggesting that at all

My whole beef with this Oprah thing is all the attention that it is getting. I don't see the point as to why it is getting the coverage it is. To me, it's a waste of time when there is more important things we should be worrying about and more important things that the news media should be covering.

[chookie]

35. It's an important cultural subtext

We're living in the Golden Age of Lying Bastards. When you can say ANYTHING to the American people and expect it to "resonate."

Oprah messed up on Larry King when she said the overall drift of the book was still important even the facts were screwed. Then she woke up to the realization that no, it's not okay. Oprah giving this asshole the red ass in public is a small but significent sign that America will eventually give the red ass to the more significant lying bastards, Bush, et al.

This is just practice, babee....

[bertha katzenengel]

46. Hey, Big Will

Come on out to So. MD for some hugs & comfort food & good talk. :hug:

[bigwillq]

49. .....

:hug: :pals:

[LisaL]

21. I guess the threads about burritos, dorritos and chillitios are

more important?

[DarienComp]

24. thank you

jeez

[LisaL]

25. No problem. It's the lounge, after all.

Nothing wrong with discussing Oprah.

[bigwillq]

28. Of course they are!

:)

[targetpractice]

34. Had you watched, you may have learned something...

The focus of the show was the importance of truth. In fact, they discussed how the "bending of the truth" has become commonplace in America today. For example, Oprah discussed how the claims of WMD in Iraq were readily accepted as truth without question by the American people. Accepted because the claims sounded like the truth. Oprah's message was "Open your eyes and demand the truth."

Important stuff... Like her or not, Oprah reaches millions. I'm amazed how she can transform an individual as well as a population. She is a unique figure in history who simultaneously can operate on very personal and global scale.

FYI, recently she put up her own money to reward people $100K who help capture wanted child molesters. Since September, her viewers have captured 3 wanted predators who have been on the run for 10 years. Isn't that enough to cut her some slack?

[LostinVA]

41. And, the importance of taking responsibility and apologizing

When you are wrong. Oprah ate a big ole plate of crow and admitted she was wrong. Some people in DC (and regular American, too!) could learn from this...

[bigwillq]

50. I did watch

and I liked how they spun the story to talk about truth in America. I agree, lack of the truth has become too common place and too dangerous.

But to me, Oprah's apology was motivated by her own agenda that god forbid, Oprah got duped and now some people are upset at. god forbid someone is mad at Queen Oprah. Oh no!


Why are earth do people need to look to TV talks shows for support on personal issues. I never got self-help tv shows or radio shows.

I go to my personal doctor, family and friends for that.

[Left Is Write]

79. Although I wouldn't want to air any personal issues on television...

I think for some people who may feel trapped, alone, or isolated, it helps them to know that there are others who have the same problems and found solutions. There is a difference between a talk show of some quality and something like the Maury Povich show.

[Redstone]

15. Who's James Frey, and why should I care?

Redstone

[bigwillq]

18. You shouldn't care.

Just some stupid bullshit.

[Redstone]

19. As I suspected.

Redstone

[Orangepeel]

22. Personally, I have a thread about my inability to buy a pie at Dennys

I'd hate to see good lounge threads like that pushed off the front page because of bullshit about Oprah.

:D

Yeah, I know. You aren't really complaining about this thread in the lounge. You are mad about this story being all over the real news and using this thread as an opportunity to vent (which is much better than hypocritically starting your own thread to vent, which many people would have done).

[Dangerously Amused]

23. You're right; the war and the national deficit are more important issues.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

BUT... with all due respect, I don't think anyone can spend every moment of every day, 100% involved in those issues and those issues alone -- except the poor soldiers who have no choice, and they will be emotionally scarred for life because of it. As for the rest of us, once in a while we have to give our brains a break and focus on something else, or our heads will explode.

I think this was an appropriate diversion because it showed a person of tremendous stature admitting a mistake, with genuine humility and no reservation. That took a lot of courage and set an important example on the national stage. It is for sure a better diversion than the runaway bride, or the latest celebrity baby rumors.

I can completely understand your frustration directed at those who take no interest in the war and the travesty happening to our country, or worse yet, blindly support them; those who deliberately choose to remain ignorant. But I don't think those people are on this website. I think the people talking about Oprah here just needed a break from the constant stress of living under a fascist regime.


Just my opinion, bigwillq. Can we still be pals? :hi:

[bigwillq]

29. Of course we can still be pals!

:hi:

We all need diversions, heck 99% of the stuff I post here is frivilous garbage.

I do agree that it takes some stature to admit a mistake but I just don't see it regarding this Oprah story. I don't think it has any bearing on the nation at all.

[kick-ass-bob]

45. I disagree. It all goes back to truth in journalism.

Memoirs are supposed to be the truth, and are much closer to journalism than works of fiction because of that. When they are distorted to such a level, that wipes out the integrity of the medium and opens the gate for more "truthiness" in many different avenues.

Is it a grave danger? No. But if you only focus your attention on the current "big things" then the smaller things that erode away will become big things.

[bigwillq]

52. It only became about truth in journalism

until after Oprah got "duped". Before it was about, let's see how many books this one can sell because Queen Oprah recommended it. Had she researched Mr. Frey and some of what is said in the book maybe she would've found this out sooner.

I'm all for truth in journalism, I am a sportswriter after all, but it's all about Oprah, Oprah, Oprah and god forbid she likes bad.

[Heidi]

30. With all due respect, bigwillq, you'll care about the integrity

of memoirists when Bush and Alito write theirs. By then it will be too late.

[bigwillq]

32. By then it'll be too late

for a lot of things if we keep worrying about Oprah and her cult following.

[Heidi]

33. I'm less worried about Oprah than I am about publishers

whom the public allows to get by with this crap. However, this firestorm began with Oprah's failure to check out a book that she recommended to millions of viewers, and she should be held accountable, just as Frey should be held accountable, and the publisher should be held accountable. Perhaps you and I will disagree on the finer points, but I have the same problem with Oprah in this instance that I have with the rightwing: they refuse to let truth stand in the way of an opportunity to make a buck.

[Oeditpus Rex]

36. Publishers should be held accountable

for a hell of a lot more than this — starting with everything Mann Coulter ever wrote.

[Heidi]

37. Oh, you'll hate me for this, OR, but calling her "Mann Coulter"

is an insult to our transgendered friends everywhere. :spank: Her problem isn't her appearance; her problem is her mean-spiritedness and willful disregard for the truth.

[Oeditpus Rex]

38. Well, I gotta call her somethin'

And the word that always comes to mind isn't one I'm terribly fond of, even though it fits.

[Heidi]

39. I know.

But I hear "Mann Coulter" so often that it sounds like we think there's something reprehensible with being a woman who looks like a man when, in fact, there's not. I just call her "Ann Coulter," and everyone knows the dipsh!t I'm talkin' about. :evilgrin:

[Oeditpus Rex]

40. I think there's something reprehensible

about just being Ann Coulter. :puke:

It's like "Ronald Reagan" or "George W. Bush" or "Karl Rove" or "Dick Cheney." Just saying or writing them is distasteful, so I need epithets.

[LostinVA]

42. THis isn't about OPrah, it's about memorists lying

And trying to get away with it. Just like "journalists" are also doing. Oprah called him out and nan Talese... although the publishers tried to spin it.

[leftstreet]

31. Is anyone here a member at Oprah's website?

Looks like you have to be a member to send her an email.

I had no idea she was so popular until I was surfing news channels tonight. Her book story thingy was everywhere.

Someone needs to email her and tell her her redemption will not be complete until she uses her Book Club to choose a copy of the Pocket Constitution.

"Recommended by Oprah."
Evidently that's the ticket to getting Americans to talk about our Civil Rights.

[Love Bug]

44. Y'know, that's a good idea

If Oprah started recommending important documents like the Constitution or good biographies of the Founding Fathers or, better yet, The People's History of the United States by Zinn, that might get more people to start thinking about what's really important and the kind of America they want to live in.

I know Oprah gets dissed around here a lot, especially after she sucked up to Arnold when he was running for gov, but she has a lot of influence and can reach a lot of people who otherwise don't pay attention to politics.

[Ron Green]

68. You're right. It's an interesting thing when a media personality has such

a huge influence on the fabric of a great nation, but that's the case here, and Oprah seems to be open to basic ideas of community, tolerance and personal growth, all of which support an effort to save our liberal institutions. However, she's also a billionaire creation of the celebrity-fan media system. Perhaps her heartfelt apology is an indicator of her willingness to find the truth within herself as well as her empire, and a hope that she can encourage her legions of followers to do some harder thinking.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. Oprah can bite me. I liked the book. Authors have been taking creative

license for years. She's a shit. A PR experiment full of her own inflated over done head.

:hi:

[bigwillq]

47. Ain't that the truth!

:hi: :pals:

And all of the Oprah cult following that hangs on every word she says.
Think for yourselves, people. Just because Oprah says it or reads it, doesn't mean that everyone has to obsess over her.
I know she does a lot of good at times but I don't get why people turn TV talks show hosts into national celebrities.

Just like that Dr. Phil. I hate them both.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. Thank you will....I don't get the mentality that elevates these people.

Yes, she has done a lot of good...but so have a lot of other people who get absolutely Zilcho credit.

[imperialismispasse]

54. Authors are supposed to take creative licence when they are

writing fiction.

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. And yet, they do it anyway. His exaggeration of the story in no way

harms the message. My father in law blew his brains out after years of attempting AA...after years of rehab. We at DU, can be such a nasty group.

[imperialismispasse]

63. I am not nasty. I feel for the actual addicts and alcoholics out there

who actually had to live through a life like what this guy is describing-only Frey is lying. He profits from the pain of other people. Its immoral and wrong. Hes been held up as a standard bearer of alternative recovery for two years now and hes been lying the whole time.

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. An addict is an addict. Who are we to judge. My father in law held

a job, made good money (until the end), and yet was still an addict. Go ahead sneer at him for not being "real" enough to fit into Oprah's fantasies...

[imperialismispasse]

69. I would never sneer at your father in law

I dont understand why you are so angry with me. And I dont know what you mean about being real enough to fit in with Oprah's fantasies. Let me try to clarify please. I am saying people like your father in law, real people who have real issues with drugs and alcohol have real stories. Those stories are being profited off of, and also devalued by a lying frat boy. It makes me mad on behalf of people like your father in law, not against them. Maybe I am not speaking clearly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. And I believe that James Frey's story of being an addict is real.

The window dressing may not be as Oprah would like it, and Frey admits that. But, the book stands as a testament to addiction and recovery. I am not angry at you. I am angry at people who let themselves get duped worse by this woman. This woman who had a banquet honoring black women in history, place a request on the invitation to show up in white..and then wore a FLaming red gown. I ask you, who's worse? Oprah's a hack.

[imperialismispasse]

72. Well I dont watch Oprah so I dont really know about that part

Im a dude, its not really my thing to watch Oprah. :D

I dont think the guys story is real and heres why. My understanding of how addiction recovery works is that you have to stop lying first. If he is still lying about big things (I dont think its window dressing we are talking about here, its big chunks of the book) then how can he hold himself up as a model for non-AA recovery? He is what they call a "dry drunk" I think. I find it impossible to trust anything he says if hes lying about all those other things. It would not have been anything for him to call it "based on a true story". It wouldnt have sold any less and he would have been covered. It also wouldnt have been a big thing for him to say "I fucked up and Im sorry" after the truth came out but he didnt. He kept lying and backed himself into a corner. He deserves the public flogging he is getting right now in my opinion.

As far as Oprah goes I dont have any opinion. :D

[A-Schwarzenegger]

78. Bingo, Sir.

"My understanding of how addiction recovery works is that you have to stop lying first. If he is still lying about big things (I dont think its window dressing we are talking about here, its big chunks of the book) then how can he hold himself up as a model for non-AA recovery? He is what they call a "dry drunk" I think. I find it impossible to trust anything he says if hes lying about all those other things."

An alcoholic/addict has to stop lying if not at first, then AT SOME TIME. This guy claims to have been clean & sober for 13 years, and Op had to PRY the word "lie" out of him. I've known a lot of dry drunks in my 19 years of sobriety, and he is a classic. I don't think he believes he has done a thing to apologize for, and in fact he didn't apologize on Oprah. He did not say a word about the people who he might have hurt with his lies. He is still concerned with himself and his own pain alone, at least as he presented himself on Oprah. A very sad fellow who now has millions of dollars but still does not have the first clue.

[Left Is Write]

80. I don't think this has anything to do with how Oprah "would like"

the story to be.

The fact remains that James Frey fabricated huge chunks of his story. Embellishment I can understand. Filling in gaps he may not remember exactly, I can understand. Complete fabrications I cannot undestand. If he tells big lies about fights with cops and prison time, what else is he lying about? Is his whole story fake? Is his recovery fake?

I have spent nearly 21 years involved with an addict, first in a long-term romantic relationship, and continuing as parents of the same child. This is a man who would lie about everything. I can't trust the father of my own child. How can I trust James Frey?

The lies may not taint his story for others, but it does for me. I have not read the book, but my daughter and many of my friends have, and I was looking forward to it. Now...I'll always have it in the back of my head that NONE of it may be true. How can I gain anything from his story of redemption and reclamation of his life if I'm not buying it?

My own personal experiences color the way I view this, of course, just as yours shape your view. We all see things through our own personal filter. From my filter, James Frey's entire story is suspect.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

55. Creative license?

The guy couldn't get the book published as a work of fiction (which he tried to do), so he reworked it a little bit and passed it off as a true story.

That's way beyond "creative license".

And you call Oprah "a shit" for believing that the book she read was true when it was sold and marketed as such?

Nice attitude. Don't blame the guy who lied to make millions, blame the woman who was duped.

[imperialismispasse]

58. IAWTC

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. Bullshit. I read the books, and they are excellent reads, exagerated

or not. As the daughter in law of an alcoholic who never "took" to AA and ended up taking his own life, I would and will continue to recommend this book. I was actually a little bummed that it made that pretentious publicity seeker's list. I'm sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

[imperialismispasse]

62. All due respect but I disagree

James Frey profited from the pain of people who really had to live through the kind of thing hes describing. But he is nothing but a frat boy. I read the book. This is the best quote from the Oprah intervew-

Oprah: Why did you lie? Why did you have to lie about the time you spent in jail? Why did you do that?

James: I think one of the coping mechanisms I developed was sort of this image of myself that was greater, probably, than—not probably—that was greater than what I actually was. In order to get through the experience of the addiction, I thought of myself as being tougher than I was and badder than I was—and it helped me cope. When I was writing the book … instead of being as introspective as I should have been, I clung to that image.

Oprah: And did you cling to that image because that's how you wanted to see yourself? Or did you cling to that image because that would make a better book?

James: Probably both.

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. Yes? I saw my father in law in that book. Never in prison, never a "bad

boy". Just a beleagured man. Because of that book, I've rededicated myself to aiding in Alcohol addiction and recovery.

[sundog]

67. ah

good point

i have mixed thoughts on the subject, but part of me feels like the whole thing is a big pr ploy

[jane_pippin]

73. You know, I liked the book too and all of this opens up a lot of

interesting questions, I think.

I was having a conversation about it with a friend last night and I'll say what I said then:

First of all, I think it was wrong to claim it was non-fiction when it wasn't. When the publishers decided to market it as a memoir as opposed to fiction (as Frey had originally tried to sell it), Frey should have stepped up and made changes or a disclosure of some kind. I think a lot of the ire should go toward the publishers as far as that goes. (Not all, but a lot).

Beyond all of that though, it's got me thinking about Truth and how we interpret ourselves. Let's pretend it was labeled as a fiction book. That shifts the whole discussion from "are the events literally true" to "does this work have merit as a work of fiction." As a reader, I think it does because I felt like I was in his head when I was reading it. I liked its style, though I know many people did not, and I liked the story and its perspective. I wouldn't say it was an earth shattering work of art, but an interesting story that's worth a read. It becomes a debate about more subjective things if it's taken as a work of fiction.

So now this gets me thinking about whether or not I'd say it still has merit as a memoir, since that's where it is on the shelves. Obviously, as a document of a series of events it doesn't stand up. But then I have to ask, is that why I read memoirs? Do I read them for a linear experience? Maybe some do for that reason and that's perfectly fine. Maybe I do sometimes too. But, what I like most about reading them is finding out how people figure themselves out. Finding out what someone has to say about his or her own life. Wrestling with how to explain who we are, how to get that across to another person, how to interpret an event, how to present what was in our heads at the time--all of that and the potential for self-exploration and experimenting with form in order to explain ourselves appeals to me. So in some ways I still see some merit in the book as a memoir--however as a good example of experimentation with form, it's lacking. I think if that's what he was going for, and I don't know if he was, there must be better examples of experimental memoirs out there. (And I think it's important to remember that whatever it is, it's not a self-help book or a how-to book, and I think people who are upset about that part of all of this read into it something that wasn't quite there, which I find an interesting part of this anger over a book full of lies.)

I suppose when it comes down to it I have to say that yes, I am pissed to find out all of this, and I really wish it had just been put out there as fiction from the get-go because I think I'd still have liked it if it was. And while I don't think it's an outstanding example of pushing the artistic envelope memoir-wise, I do like that it's opened that up to think about and explore. What I can still take away from it, knowing what I know now, is that I got to read an interesting story and see how one person saw himself and I guess something in me still sees that as worthwhile.

I didn't mean to get off on a diatribe there, but I just find thinking about all of this fascinating and fun. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what to think of all of this, but for right now this is where I'm at with it. Hope I didn't bore anybody to death.

[ScreamingMeemie]

74. That really is interesting, jane. I spent some time thinking about it

and have come to the conclusion that the base of the story is still truth. Sometimes I think society demands a horrific story in order to be validated. Many times, the addict is not and never will be (even with recovery) completely honest with themself IMO. I think a lot of people who are upset about the entire thing just like to get whipped up,and also (because of jealousy perhaps) enjoy seeing the downfall of a much lauded public figure. It's who a lot of us are. I think a beast lies in the heart of each and every one of us. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[jane_pippin]

77. I think that's about right Mrs. G.

Definitely about truth of it. Thanks for your thoughts here too. :)

[imperialismispasse]

48. Where are the clips? I see the story but not the clips

[Shell Beau]

51. I saw it!!!!

:7

[underpants]

59. FINALLY!! THE LIES ARE EXPOSED!!!!

Seriously, think about how much coverage THIS set of lies has gotten.

[ProfessorGAC]

65. If You Say So

That apology looked like CYA and public relations. I strongly doubt the sincerity of it.

And besides, big deal. If she wasn't trying to behave as a guru for a quarter million women to whom she really can't relate, she'd have nothing to apologize for.

And when is she going to apologize about introducing Dr. Phil?
The Professor

[kay1864]

71. Only thing is...

(well two things actually)

1. Oprah didn't say "I'm retracting this from my book club" or anything like that. IMHO Frey deserved something like that after he blatantly lied to her the last time he was on. As it is, it's still in her book club, and he (and his publisher) still benefit from the free publicity (bad or not).

2. A couple days ago, it came out that her producers knew parts of the book were false--*months* before he was on her show. A day or two later, Oprah decides that Smoking Gun is right after all. Coincidence? You decide.

[DarienComp]

75. huh.

2. A couple days ago, it came out that her producers knew parts of the book were false--*months* before he was on her show. A day or two later, Oprah decides that Smoking Gun is right after all. Coincidence? You decide.

I did not know that... the question is did Oprah's producers tell her what they knew? If they didn't, she should fire them. If they did... well, then, i guess i need to learn to be a little more cynical.

[kay1864]

76. Well, we'll never know the answer to THAT question...

In response to questions last week about the early warning given to the program, a spokeswoman for Ms. Winfrey, Angela DePaul, said, "We have no comment."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/24/books/24frey.html?_r=1

But my guess (call me cynical) is that this show (pre-empting her previously-announced schedule! HMMmmm...) was put together by Oprah and her producers for damage control. Can't have OprahInc looking duped, or her credibility drops.

Yeah, okay, and for Oprah to apologize, which admittedly was a nice gesture on her part. Still, the timing is really suspect...