I'm seriously considering becoming a lawyer-Any advice?

[noahmijo]

Okay here's my background I graduated with a BS in Business in MIS (Management Information Systems) from the University of Arizona.

My overall GPA was a 3.3 my major GPA was a 3.8

Incidently supposedly the school I graduated from is according to US News and World #3 in the subject of Info Technology under only MIT and Carnegie Mellon.

Technology is a passion of mine and will always remain so, but lately I'm just not as much into the idea of becoming a network administrator or engineer as I thought I was.

Completely overlooking the fact that the field has now become one of massive outsourcing and jobs that require you to go out and train yourself as companies are too cheap nowadays to even spend a couple of weeks providing you with necessary training.



Here's the main point to consider though that I just have no come to accept: I spend far more time studying politics, interesting cases, global issues, basically I read books on topics like Iran-Contra and The coop in Iran, and Enron than I do about how to properly configure a server.

The way I see it I know lawyers a dime a dozen and I do not harbor fantasies about living on easy street ect, however I do feel that with my background as a technology grad and a law degree I could find an area that isn't quite so tapped out in the field of maybe patent law or perhaps corporate law in an area where technology reigns (such as say what Microsoft lawyers do ect)

I LOVE reading and writing-I always made a killing on my college essays that dealt in various fields of business like accounting and economics and especially in the law related courses I took I found myself taking more interest in those subjects than that of the technical related courses that made up my major.

Even more than reading and writing I like to take apart written arguments, analyze the facts, come up with rebuttals or boosters to them.

I did it almost non-stop right here on DU-and I did it for nothing it was considered FUN for me.

I'm currently in between contract jobs (it's tough as hell to find full time work for a college newbie in the tech field) I am 24 years old so I don't think it's necessarily too late for me to go back to school.

I would try to get into the college of law here in at the school I graduated from as since I am an alumnist I know some professors, I know the school, the reduced tuition rate for me, ect, and I would say my chances of getting in would be good.

I can't even apply until Feb of next year as the deadline for Fall semester (the only semester new applicants are admitted into) is Feb 15 and there's no way I can get all my letters, financial aid, LSAT ducks in a row in just a couple of weeks.

In the meantime I'd probably stick with doing the technical jobs I know how to do to save up and also go out and do a little research on what it's like to work in the legal field.

Maybe even by then I'd catch a lucky break and land a decent paying full time gig doing tech work, but honestly I really am more the type of person that likes to research and analyze more real world problems and issues as opposed to ensuring that a server room is functioning properly.

So my question is what do you all think? from the background I just gave do you think I should go for it? it means another three years out of my life and everything, and I know I would be another newbie all over again, however I just get the feeling given the type of person I am I would get more out of life working with patent or law as it is related to technology as opposed to being a glorified technician.

Also I am aware of the stress and the competitive nature of the job, but the whole fact of the matter is an advantage I think I have is I have no delusions: lawyers were my primary clients as a network technician. I don't expect to be big-time or anything like I just want the opportunity to working with a company or private clients and being the guy that explains how technological patents work, or how such and such move violated monopoly laws, ect.


Thanks in advance!

~N~

[mikeytherat]

1. Attend law school?

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

mikey_the_rat

[noahmijo]

3. You mean I can't be a lawyer out of Grammer school??

smart-ass ;)

[mdmc]

2. Intern somewhere

work in a field that you enjoy. Remember, there is such a thing as election law!

[Burma Jones]

4. Go and Look for happy lawyers

and then ask them for advice....

[noahmijo]

6. haha yea well I worked for lawyers in my current field (tech)

the truth is you're right they don't seem too happy but I think it's because they didn't understand what they were getting themselves into.

In my age of college the people I talked to who wanted to become lawyers always had the same thing in common-they basically thought they could hit it big with minimal work.

These were kids who proudly claimed how they hated to write hated to read, all about partying ect not enough about commitment.

The overall reason the lawyers at least the ones I worked for seem unhappy is because they really thought the profession was just a job that required a little smooth talking here and there and that's it they hit the riches.

Thing is it's just become clear to me that I will have to wait at least a year now before even applying due to one of the requirements that I had to have fulfilled months ago in order to make it in time, but hey if I still feel the same about pursuing this as I do now then I think I'll stick with it.

[Burma Jones]

7. My Wife's Aunt is the happiest lawyer I know

She went to Law School after her Husband left her and her kids were in High School. She works in the Altoona, PA area as a sort of General Practice Attorney helping folks with wills, real estate, divorces and the like. Not the highest paying sort of practice, but it makes her happy to feel like she's helping folks out....

[noahmijo]

10. Well that's my attitude I'm picking a field and doing this for

the idea of fulfilling what I'm really capable of. The earnings part of it is really around number 7 or 8 on my reasons for wanting to get into practicing law.

For all I know I may do something similar to what your aunt does, only my personal interests are more in line with patent law due to my tech background and degree, but of course I will always remain open.

I bet your aunt works for herself too and takes orders from no one and that's another reason for me wanting to look into this field as my current field is one that really has no room for people who own their private business and as far as finding an employer good luck they already 10 guys from India who will work for cheaper than you.

[Burma Jones]

17. There's definitely a Patent Attorney Shortage

Particularly in IT....

I have a Doctorate in Computing and one of my wife's Uncles was a Patent Attorney and always urges me to go "pick up" a Law Degree and become a Patent Attorney.....

[WeRQ4U]

26. And pattent attorneys CAN make big money.

I know you said that you didn't care about the money...but it is nice knowing that the chace to make it is out there. A good law school friend of mine was an Engineer for 10 years before coming to law school. He ended up getting job with a patent firm right out of law school and I GUARANTEE he's making more money than anyone else I know.

[eyesroll]

5. I'm doing it.

And as for your age: Most 1Ls are older than you are. I'm 30 and will be a 1L in the fall (I'll be one of the oldest full-timers in my class; I know that). I don't have the tech background you do, so I wouldn't be looking at patents/IP. My academic interest is Constitutional law, and I've also become interested in elder law (a growing specialty, with the aging of the population) after watching an elderly relative get duped by her trusted caregiver.

I also am doing the local-law-school thing -- I'm not as mobile as I would have been at 22. The school here isn't a top-tier school, but it has a good local reputation. Plus, if your test scores and GPA are higher than the usual candidate, more $ that you don't have to pay back might come your way.

Best of luck to you.

[noahmijo]

8. "oldest" at 30? personally nowadays though I see 30 as still a kid

I dunno if its modern medicine that has the current generation of 40 somethings being able to call themselves the new 30, but the truth is I don't think my age or your age really matters, but I know that's not your point and quite frankly I appreciate the encouragement.

At the law school I'm applying to apparently the last enrollment had about 20% of those newly admitted being over the age of 30.

That's even the thing I'm not even necessarily getting into this for the money. I fully believe I could make just as much continuing to pursue the career track I was on, but it just makes me feel like I am lacking I feel like I can do more than just orders from some IT manager. It's the whole do you see yourself still doing this (being a network admin/engineer) 20 years from now and the truth is I don't. I see myself as taking a larger role within an organization that involves having to be analytic and persuasive.

Best of luck to ya keep in touch if you can to let me know how it's going for you.

[eyesroll]

19. It's just the way my particular school skews -- there's a night program

that gets people in their 30s-60s, but the regular day program is pretty much >30.

And I see where you're coming from re: money, career track...I'm with you there. I'm not looking to get rich. The Scholarship Fairy was good to me, so I won't be in debt up to my eyeballs when I graduate, so I can take pretty much any job that pays a living wage and not worry about how I'm going to pay back the loans. That's nice. But I don't want to end up unemployed or horribly underemployed. I like the idea of a small elder law practice (right now -- maybe after a few classes and an internship, I'll change my mind); the potential for big bucks isn't huge, but quality of life would be better than billing 80 hours a week for Big, Scary and Soul Sucking, S.C.

I'll let you know how the first year goes -- I'm expecting it to be hell in ways I haven't imagined, but also easier than expected in some areas. (In other words -- I know it'll be different from my expectations, but I don't know how yet.)

[WeRQ4U]

9. From a VERY young attorney here....

Be sure you know what you're getting into. Law school is a whole different animal than undergrad. And the competition out of school, even for those non "big time" jobs is tough. But you seem to know what you're looking for and have a decent amount of motivation, so trust your instincts.

Decide which school/schools you might apply to. Figure out which firms do intellectual property law in that area. Make some friends and do some networking. Then prepare yourself and those you love for the experience. They won't see you for a while; hell, they won't want to see you for a while. You will be consumed.

[noahmijo]

11. thanks one of the first things I do plan on doing is networking

the law school I am applying to gives you alot of good opportunities for that thankfully and this time around I know that interning and taking advantage of clinics and so forth is an absolute must-a lesson I had to learn the hard way with my MIS degree as I focused more on getting the degree done and over with than taking some to go out and network and meet people.

As far as the competition being rough well the fact is I'd like to know in what area of employment or job field is the competition NOT rough? right now even with my degree and credentials I can't even find a full-time job-everything is either outsourced or they hire you as a contract worker and you get no benefits or overtime and they let you go after awhile. This is what has happened to me over the last year.

Point being if I'm going to have to deal with heavy competition I like to be in a position where now I know what to expect and what's coming and furthermore be doing the kind of work I think I am far more suited for. I really can't see myself in 20 years being a glorfied computer nerd but maybe being someone who has to analyze and either rebutt or bolster an argument or written proposal well that's something I've found myself doing for free.


Just out of curiosity if I can ask what exactly is VERY young? :)

[WeRQ4U]

14. By VERY young, I mean green to the profession.

I graduated from law school 2 years ago in May. I've been doing a judicial clerkship (which is why I can't really provide any real insight into what it's like as an actual client-seeing attorney) since I passed the bar in July.

You make great points about there being competition in every field, and I'm aware of that. And I'm also clueless as to your financial situation. I assumed you would have to take out student loans to finance law school, considering it's rare that people can pay the 20K a year out of pocket (maybe you can, I don't know). But my concern about competition is more due to the fact that once you get out of law school you'll be saddled with expenses which would increase your stress level by some measure if it's hard to find a job........you know what I mean?

You seem to know what needs to be done as far as networking goes. It's very important. The old saying "It's not what you know, but WHO you know"...well, it's cliche but true. ALL of my law school buddies that are currently working (what's scarey is that there are some that AREN'T working) got their jobs through an acquaintance....ALL of them, including myself. I can't stress that enough.

[noahmijo]

16. what you're saying makes sense (thanks for keeping the talk going)

as far my financial situation right now it's not the best I am currently paying off loans and a credit card, however the two main things financially that I think work in my favor is for one the school I plan on attending is the one I got my undergrad degree in and I am a resident therefore tuition is going to cost around $40k for the entire three years That's no small chunk of change, but to me it's pretty cheap for a law degree from a school that is at least respected maybe not ivy league but you get what I mean.

Also being that I have to wait a whole year now before I can even apply because I got this thought yesterday...way too late to apply for LSDAT or whatever it's called where you get your transcripts and info stored into a large database, it gives me a chance to spend a good amount of time going out there and making contacts and more importantly get a regular job and save save save for when the time comes I can apply and not be so far in debt and have some cash saved up for expenses that will come up.

Like I was saying I wouldn't be pursuing this career for the potential income, but to me it's just something that my personality is more suited for-I mean when you spend more time reading books about Iran-Contra and Enron than you do about books that teach you how to take apart a server you know it's kind of a hint of where you should go....

[WeRQ4U]

21. My law school was private, so it was a little more expensive.

I would say that, going in, I expected about 65K in debt. Having finished, I know the truth.

Let me explain. First, accredited law schools don't usually allow their 1L's to work for the first year. Depending on where you live, add 10-15K for the first year. You need books (500-600 per semester, and you'll need to eat, live etc.)

Next, only a very select few get actualy jobs during law school AFTER their first years. These are usually based on grades, but not always. So if you don't get SOMETHIGN to supplement your income, you'll have to add even MORE money on top of your loans.

I ended up leaving law school with about 120K in student loan debt. After consolidation, that's about 850 bucks a month that I'll be paying for, what seems like, the rest of my life. I'm OK with that. I live in North Dakota. My mortgage is actually LESS than my student loan amount. I can manage to pay ALL my expenses and keep my family afloat on what little money I make. However, if you DON'T live in a small city, and you expect to survive just doing ho-hum legal work, you're in for quite the surprise.

Like I said before....by no means am I trying to dissuade you from choosing our profession. WE need all the young, bright, left-leaning people we can. But I won't sugar coat it for you either. It aint always Perry Mason.

[WilliamPitt]

12. Yeah. Don't.

:)

Sorry. I come from a family of lawyers.

If you do go, note this well: DO NOT go to a law school merely because of its good name. You'll wind up paying through the nose for a diploma, and will have to take high-paying corporate jobs to pay off your loans. High-paying is good, corporate law is the death of hope for many.

Look for a school that teaches specifically the field you want to practice in. Spend only enough to keep you from having to mturn down good gigs because they don't pay enough.

[noahmijo]

13. Heh I was waiting for a response like yours

Well I already plan on going to the same university that I got my undergrad in and it's as far as I can tell just a respected school but not ivy league or anything like that.

Tuition costs will probably be about $40k for the entire three years because I am an alumnist and a resident and it just so happens you can make your law degree specialize in patent law which is what so far I am primarily looking into.


That is a form of corporate law as far as I know....what exactly is the issue with that type of law that "makes people lose hope"?

[WilliamPitt]

15. A lot of people I know

went to law school wanting to do good, be a public defender or get into non-profit work. But they went the sucker route and attended schools that were $40k each year. They were very smart, did great in undergrad, and followed the insinct that good grades sends you to the best schools.

And they got out with $100k in debt, and had to go into corporate law - specifically, defense litigation for large corporations - in order to pay that off. When they started, they said "I will only do this until my loan is payed off," but it never works like that. Five, six years in they are on the partner track, and they bought a house or a car or got married, and that big paycheck is even more important, and they will never ever ever ever practice the kind of law they started out looking for in the first place.

This is, by the way, one of the means by which corporations became supreme. They got the best and brightest minds out of law school to defend them in court - the ones I spoke of above - and those best and brightest (with the help of a well-funded law firm) win all the time. Then these best and brighest become judges, and tend to lean towards the corporations they served in practice.

I was a litigation paralegal for almost ten years. Went to court maybe 30 times for trial. I've been on both sides: the side of the big corp that can spend a plaintiff into the ground, and the side of a poor plaintiff who got screwed, whose lawyers face off against ten corp defense lawyers in black suits with money falling out of their pockets.

It used to be a practice. It isn't anymore.

[WeRQ4U]

18. Because young lawyers are idealists and are easily disenfranchised.

Think about what you're getting into. You have to work ridiculous hours. You may have to do a LOT of babysitting. Your clients are usually unhappy with your performance. You deal with rejection daily. The margin for error is very low. You read a lot. You spend a LOT of time alone. You have to be self sufficient. You're saddled with debt. And the world doesn't work they way you think it does or should.

ON top of that, you get suckered into believing that you'll find a job that will pay your loans AND provide you with some sort of personal freedom/family life. But then, as the poster above recognizes, 20 years down the road you realize that your dream of "helping people" has turned into simply getting paid.

Listen, I went to Lewis and Clark Law school in Portland, Oregon so I could get a certificate in Environmental Law. I, along with many others that came there for that specific purpose, realized that this "A Civil Action" fantasy that what we dreamed E-law would be like (crusades against oil companies and factories, saving endangered species from extinction, cleaning up a local water supply, etc) was NOT at all what goes on. It's administrative bullshit. It's HARD. And it's low paying. I couldn't handle that. I was pissed off and easily could have decided to cut my losses and run. I didn't, I just channeled my interests elsewhere, but you can see how that might happen.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

20. Most of my friends who did law school

Ended up about $100K in debt afterwards by the time they had taken out loans for tuition, fees, room and board, other living expenses, etc.

They are all now making large sums of money at large corporate law firms -- and working 80-100 hour weeks, every week, and working on weekends. That sort of lifestyle will eat away at most people -- some can do it, others can't.

The girl I'm dating right now has put in about 120 hours in the last week; I haven't seen her in over a week. 6:00 AM to midnight, quite frequent.

The way I see it, I could just get two or three full-time jobs and make as much money as they are without the time and debt of law school.

[WeRQ4U]

22. It depends on where you live and what you want from life.

It's completely false that you HAVE to work 120hours a week to pay off a 100K student loan debt. But if combine a lot of factors, then it may be true.

If you want to get them paid off as soon as possible, then more money, of course, allows you to do that.
If you have other expenses...cars, home mortgages, children etc., then you may need to work that much to pay everything down.

But like I said above, I live in North Dakota. My mortgage is smaller than my student loans and I can survive just fine with the very limited income I make right now. But if I didn't live in North Dakota...things would be mighty different.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

23. Ah, see I live in NYC

Things are a little pricier here than in North Dakota.

When you're trying to pay the $2K/month rent on your 1,000 sq. foot apartment, it makes it that much more difficult to avoid the heavy corporate workloads.

[WeRQ4U]

24. Makes all the difference in the world.

The same was true on the west coast, to a certain extent. I made the conscious decision to move. For my own well-being and for that of my family. I have NO interest in being a slave to some giant 300 lawyer law firm simply to make ends meet. I grew up small. I know small. And I'm alright with making less money and doing something enjoyable and knowing that I can attend my son's basketball games when he grows up. My father did it (with much less student loans, of course) and I want to as well.

[noahmijo]

27. You live in Oregon? my state choice is Washington St.

And I'm overall the same way like I said I just want to make a fair and decent living that's all hell I drive an '06 Civic and you know what if someone offered to trade me their Ferrari straight up I'd say no-because I don't need the headaches ect I dont demand complications in life you know as I said the main reason I am looking into the legal profession is I think my personality just fits the field more. I don't see myself as just another computer junkie sweating over if I am gonna be outsourced or not.

I just wanna be able to make a small difference wherever I can-of course large earnings and making big impacts are things I wouldn't run away from, but I don't expect them nor would I feel unfulfilled if they never came my way.

[WeRQ4U]

28. Actually, I went to school in Portland, Oregon

At Lewis and Clark Law School. I moved to North Dakota to do my judicial clerkship right after school. I plan on living in either North Dakota or Minnesota for the rest of my life.

[patcox2]

30. Patent lawyers are much happier than most.

Thats the word, anyway. Don't let Pitt twist you too much about "corporate" law, I have been miserable making big money doing corporate, and I have been miserable with a small town private practice doing everything, and I have been miserable saving the downtrodden as a public defender. But I had more money when I was in the big firm, so that helped.

Happiness came when I got into politics and legislative affairs.

[WeRQ4U]

32. I'm currently interested in an indigent defense job for the State of ND.

You say you were miserable....why was that? I'm wondering whether I'll be OK with this job. It seems right up my alley.

[patcox2]

35. Mostly personal reasons, cynicism.

Here's the thing about the criminal justice system; they're almost all guilty, and the cops almost all LIE to make sure they get convicted. So its the icky versus the yucky. Get too close and you might get some on you. And there is the sense of unreality as the court's pretend that the cop's probable cause testimony is truthful even though it came from a photocopied script the cops all use (as I approached at which the suspect was located I observed the suspect reach into his pocket and remove a glassine packet which the then threw on the ground. . . blah blah blay."

So anyway, as I say, its also partly personal, I should never have been a trial attorney.

[WeRQ4U]

37. OK.

Well, having worked with judges now for 2 years I may have a different view, who knows. I have my reservations, but also my delusions of grandeur...lol. I'm young, what can I say.

[0007]

25. Only as a devout Wildcat fan would I divulge my hard earned

wisdom.

Study hard, long, and make the necessary sacrifices to be the best!

Edited to add; Question your motives at length before taking the big step.

Good Luck!!

[patcox2]

29. Its a very personal thing whether its right for you.

However, it could be interesting in light of your background. Most lawyers wind up in law school with very general backgrounds, political science, english, and a surprising number of people drift into it because they are bright and don't know what else to do (that would be me, but I was not alone).

What do you expect from it? Something like Law and Order? Or lots of boring meetings listening to people whine about their problems followed by lots of boring drafting of horrendously difficult to read documents, and lots of filing and clerical crap.?

[huskerlaw]

31. I second Will Pitt's advice

Particularly the part about choosing a school based on the type of law you want to practice. If you want to specialize in something like election law, you need to search for a school that actually provides classes in that area (not all do). Also, if you're really interested in the political aspect, look at the professors who teach the politics-related courses, such as Constitutional Law. Decide if you want them to agree with you...or if you'd rather hone your arguments by taking a class taught by a fundie. Also, try to find professors who have real life experience. They can be great contacts, and they actually know what they're talking about.

I graduated from law school nearly 3 years ago. I can also attest to the nasty student loans issue. Tuition of $40K for 3 years is excellent, but again don't forget the additional fees, books, and living expenses. Depending on where you live, even with tuition of $40K you're easily looking at a final number closer to $75-100K, particularly if you look at the amount you actually end up paying, rather than the amount of loans you took out.

You also need to decide if you're willing to give up your life for 3 years, because that's essentially what you'll have to do. On orientation day my first year, the law school dean said to us, "For the next 3 years, your homework will never be done. There will always be one more case, one more source, one more chapter to read. Your job is to discover the point at which you've done enough to succeed and also stay sane." She was 100% correct. Law school will take up literally every second of your time, if you let it. It will take up 99% of your time whether you let it or not.

As for using law school as a springboard into politics...that was my original intent as well. It hasn't really worked out that way so far. I took a job that I'm happy with in order to pay the bills (heh, yes, the student loans), and now that I'm getting settled in the job I'm looking to work my way into politics. I guess what I'm saying is that a law degree isn't a golden ticket into politics. Yes, it helps. But it's still who you know.

[WeRQ4U]

33. What kind of law do you practice Husker.

You're not that much older than I am. I'm still working my judicial clerkship until August. Then it's off to the real world for me. lol.

[huskerlaw]

34. Actually, I

decided I liked school so much that I got a Master's Degree after law school. Now I'm a research librarian, soon to be professor, at a major university.

I absolutely love it. Normal hours, more than decent pay...and I get to work with different legal issues every day.

What kind of law do you want to practice?

[WeRQ4U]

36. Not really sure.

I have a certificate of business law from Lewis and Clark Law school, but I've always LIKED tort law. NOw, during my clerkship, I've really started to become partial to criminal law. There is an indigent defense position starting here in a couple months and I've decided to apply for that one. It may be a long shot, but it seems interesting.

[huskerlaw]

38. Awesome

One of my law school classmates is an assistant DA in Oregon. Actually, she went to Lewis & Clark for undergrad. Small world.

Obviously, she's on the other side of the courtroom, but she loves criminal law as well. Another former classmate has been doing some low-level pro bono defense work. Criminal's not really her thing, but she does say that it keeps things interesting. Some of her stories are quite entertaining.

Good luck with the job search!

[WeRQ4U]

39. thanks.

Criminal work will never be boring. Always another nut to deal with.

Good luck to you too...in whatever you do.

[Maine Mary]

40. Your love of justice is my concern for you.

You may find that you must become way more pragmatic to make it. We are probably the best democracy on this planet. But sometimes even here, politics and (for lack of better term) mob rules. If you were to find yourself in in a high profile case, everything you learned in law school might go out the window. Would you know how to fight dirty too?

Please forgive me for such bold questions and ideas. PM me and I can give you my want uncle's address. I promise nothing. But my uncle has been in practice in for apppoximately 20 years. He also served 3 terms as Maine's Attorney General.

[wildhorses]

41. don't

in a word