Elitism: let's discuss.

[RandomKoolzip]

1) Is it elitist to dislike a work of art because I genuinely didn't like it?


2) Or should I just pretend to like something in order to prevent charges of "elitism?"


3) Is "elitism" really that heinous of a charge in the first place?


4) Going back to the first question, let's say I have NO Speilberg or John Hughes or any big budget Hollywood stuff on DVD at my house, but I do have "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Harold and Maude" and lots of Mystey Science Theatre (all of which I rented or taped off of the TV) on VHS. Does it make me an elitist to prefer those to, oh say, "Forrest Gump?" (which I saw and didn't care much for.)


5) Without radical musicians, tempramental artists and "elitist" critics pushing envelopes and demanding more from art than standard industry cliches and shallow fluff, would we not all still be listening to Mitch Miller and watching Doris Day movies?


6) Let's say I make 9.75 an hour (I do.) Let's say I work doing physical labor (I do.) Let's also say that neither of my parents ever made more than 20 grand a year (they didn't). Let's say I'm the product of a trailer park father (I am). Let's say I really dislike big budget Hollywood movies and top 40 radio stuff. (I do.) Let's say I prefer "indie rock" and obscure films (I do.) Does my economic status cancel out any charges of "elitism?" It seems strange to me that I could be branded an "elitist" for having cultural opinions that stereotypically do not flow naturally from my class status. One might then say that those who make MORE money than me or come from more priveliged backgrounds might actually be the REAL "elitists," since they are insisting that I behave like a member of my class and get "into" NASCAR, football, sappy Hollywood tripe, pop-country music, etc. Who is the real elitist in this scenario?


7) Is expressing a negative opinion about a work of art the same thing as hurting a person's feelings?


8) Is taste subjective, or should we all try to "appreciate" (read: reluctantly give insincere props to) art which does not move US, but moves a great deal of other people? Is that not condescension?


9) Who's your favorite Beatle?

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. I say don't worry about it. If people are so vapid that they feel

the need to charge "elitism", then fuck 'em, they ain't worth listening to.

We all like what we like.

Though your point on appreciation is a good one - there are things I don't like, but I appreciate the talent and integrity of the artist/art - Barbara Streisand is one. I can't listen to her for long becuase her style of music makes me want to kill myself, but I can appreciate her art, and her talents.

But there is a lot of art - Kinkade, for instance; or Beyonce or Brittney or Tom Cruise - that isn't worth appreciating, because it IS truly bad.

[realisticphish]

2. my answers

1. no. if it sucks, it sucks
2. only if it's a friend or family member who created it
3. to a point, but it's misused a lot
4. no. MST3K is the shit, and forrest gump bit the big one
5. granted, but john cage is still a con man :D
6. an elitist is only an elitist if they like something ONLY BECAUSE everyone else doesn't like it (or dislikes it because everyone else likes it). Be yourself. NASCAR sucks :D
7. meh, thats really a social issue. I would say it in a way that says "I don't like it, but i think a lot of people would"
8. appreciate? no. I.E., i think country sucks. And I tell people this very often. But I certainly don't think people are stupid for listening to it, or think that it isn't art
9. Ringo Starr

[ForrestGump]

3. OK

1) No

2) No

3) No -- but if it's a product of peer-pressure or pretension it is certainly just grounds for rightful condemnation to the Land of the F***witted.

4) No. And if I didn't think this was a poorly-veiled dig at an imagined slight, I'd wonder what the hell you were asking such a stupid question for.

5) Who knows. Sometimes thngs are driven and sometimes they just happen. Probably not, though.

6) 'No' to the first part, and 'nobody' to the second. For the record, my background is not unlike yours in terms of economics, but I choose not to dwell on or even think of 'class.' Indeed, I truly have no class.

7) No. Unless they're a particularly sensitive artist and you put the hard word to their pride and joy.

8) Yes, taste is subjective. I hope that wasn't a trick question.

9) John-Paul

[RandomKoolzip]

4. "John-Paul," the Gallic Beatle?

Thanks for sparring with me. :thumbsup:

[jane_pippin]

5. Ok, I'll play:

1. No, though some people who like it (whatever "it" is) might say otherwise from time to time.

2. No. You like what you like. Everybody does. I think trying to deride someone for liking something mainstream or for liking something obscure is just a pointless waste of energy.

3. Not really. I think it's more of a defensive response half the time than anything else. Also:



(Sorry if this pisses anybody off, but I've been itching to post this and now's as good a time as any.)


4. Nope. You like what you like.

5. Yep.

6. Oh am I with you there. It's something I've never quite understood. I have a similar background and from what I've read from you, somewhat similar tastes--or at least a similar outlook on what I like/dislike. I just don't get the point of anybody trying to pigeonhole anybody else, then judging them if they don't fit into the hole.

7. No, but it depends how you state your opinion too. I don't see the point in deliberately making fun of a movie/book/band just to get a rise out of someone. But, if you don't like it and say why you don't like it (without name calling, say), then it isn't your problem if the person that does gets offended over such a little thing. I mean, I like Vince Vaughn. Lots of people here hate him. I'm not crying into my beer over it.

8. Yes it is, and it depends. For example, I hate the show Friends. Can't stand it, and will make fun of it. However, if someone I know likes it it isn't my place to make fun of them, nor would I. Most of the people I know can handle it if someone makes fun of something they happen to like. I know I like things that they can't stand. In some cases they know whatever it is crap but they like it anyway for whatever their reasons are. I don't think you have to give insincere or condescending props to anything, but I think there's a difference between recognizing someone's right to be moved by something you can't stand and patronizing the person. I usually just say something like, I understand what you're saying, I can see why you like it but it just isn't my thing. And I mean it too. And if I can't see what they like about it, I ask them to explain why they like it. (Though if it's my best friend who's liking something "lame" she'll get teased mercilessly, but only because we get to do that to each other.)

9. Don't have one. Ok, just not Paul.

[RandomKoolzip]

Good points.

About #8:

What gets to me is the kind of suffocating consensus borne of meager expectations that Americans have as a culture that people can dig someting BLATANTLY lame and uncreative and never ever get called on it. In the case of "Friends," I remember when the show got to be popular, and some of my friends started to watch it and really proselytize about it: "Oh, you HAVE to watch it, it's SO funny!"....I gave it a chance, saw a few episodes, and came back to them with my opinion.

"It's obvious that the network took notice of the popularity of Seinfeld (a genuinely good show), and wanted another one just like it. However, all the characters on Seinfeld are butt-ugly. If they could just remake Seinfeld using young, attractive actors, BINGO! Ratings gold!"

They were sincerely hurt by that, and I could never understand why. Demographics.

The stuff I like is not the kind of stuff most people like, and I'm used to having negative opinions thrown in my direction. The point of being human is to have an opinion. If it''s negative, it's negative. So what? If I play the music I like to most people, I usually get odd looks and requests to turn it off. That's fine.

[jane_pippin]

23. I think that most people want to believe that others are good.

I mean, it wouldn't have made it so big if it wasn't good, right? There must be some redeeming quality to this Friends show beyond the new suits it bought the exec that produced it, right?
That seems to be the logic sometimes. Sometimes it's right. Lots of times it isn't.

I think as far as your friends and Friends goes, people don't want to know that they're being manipulated by marketing even when that's all it is. I don't know if it's quite the same thing, but I've had similar, uh, discussions, about Napoleon Dynamite with my friends. They love that movie, and I could go on for hours about how much I hate it. I thought one of my friends was on the same page as me but *whoops* she was not. (There were some hurt feelings, but it ended up ok after apologizing, more conversation, booze, and jokes about our man George).

The stuff I like isn't what most people like either, so I know what you mean. I don't really get into it here because of it, though it would be nice to be able to once in a while. You're right--if it's a negative opinion it's still valid and that's all there is to it. You just can't waste time worrying about whether or not you might be offending people every second of the day when you're just being yourself. (Not that I think you do). Frankly I'd rather be offended once a day than never be offended at all. At least that way I'd know we aren't all robots.

[RandomKoolzip]

33. Ugh...Napoleon Dynamite.

My favorite T-shirt of the last year was the one that said "Impeach Pedro."

Have you seen American Splendor? One of my favorite movies; there's a scene in there where HArvey Pekar tries to convince a "nerd" friend of his that "Revenge of the Nerds" is just an excuse to sell shit to a previously untapped demographic, not some rallying call or impowerment move towards nerds. (Of course, it falls on deaf ears.)

It's also true that among people, I really DO try to find common ground first, and try not to let cultural taste enter the picture until I get to know the person. 80% of the time, I'm not ranting about this shit, believe it or not. And these days, it's far more important to find common POLITICAL ground that to divide our numbers according to our taste in art; which of course makes this whole thread a waste of time (it probably is; oh well.)

[jane_pippin]

53. Ha! I'm for that shirt.

I love that scene in American Splendor. It's one of my favorite movies too. And, I like that his nerd friend sees it as a battle cry for nerds--I find it endearing.

You know, I don't believe you are ranting at all and I don't think most reasonable people would just up and start ranting for no reason. Of course, there are always exceptions and sometimes we all need to bust out a good rant. This thread doesn't seem like a waste--we've pretty much got common political ground here so why not have an interesting discussion about artsy stuff? I do not understand how any of us would let our tastes in music or books or whatever divide us. That's what seems like a waste of time to me.

I'm in the middle of learning how to sort all of this out, so I like this thread. One of the retail jobs I have now, and most of the jobs I've had in the past, involves books, records, movies--most of the ground covered by all this elitist/mainstream business. I remember at one job being so frustrated at the sheer volume of absolute crap that was purchased. In another, the owner wouldn't allow obvious, blatant crap in his store so that made things interesting too. The job I have now is this weird balance of both mainstream and weird stuff being bought. I'm learning it's harder to peg people than I thought, and I like learning that. It's that, and exchanges like the Pekar/Nerd exchange that are eroding my knee jerk reactions to people. I'm rambling now, but I will say that it is a fun thing to learn, frustrating as it may be sometimes.

[RandomKoolzip]

58. I worked at a record Store in Nashville....

A used record store. This was in 2000; I was supposed to evaluate and buy incoming CDs. The one rule we had when evaluating what to buy was: No Green Day's "Dookie." I asked why and was led to a giant shelf in the backroom where there were at LEAST 50 copies of that CD. So many people bought that thing when it was cool, then decided to sell it shortly afterwards.

The flipside to all this, the thing that infuriated me, was that the clerks at the store (like me) had first pick over anything good that came in. If anyone came to us with a stack of Keiji Haino CDs or a rare Pere Ubu 7" or something, WE would snatch it up so that the customers wouldn't have a shot at it. Which didn't strike me as unfair until years afterward, when I started thinking about the concentric, sometimes contrary-flowing circles around all this "elitism" stuff: the clerks at the record store, making 5.50 an hour, are keeping the "great unwashed" from buying the truly valuable records and hoarding them for themselves, meanwhile, we'd buy just about any piece of crap CD and re-sell it for five bucks more than we bought it for. The contradictions involved were staggering for anyone with class conciousness.

[jane_pippin]

70. That's about when I worked in a used record store.

We had PILES of that stupid Green Day cd too. Selling back your cd's is a concrete example of how liking popular stuff can bite you right in the ass sometimes. But that's just life. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I don't have any problem with snatching up the good stuff, either. Not really. We did it all the time but I think we were doing it because we liked the stuff that came in--not to get it to play keep away or anything. I see your point about keeping it away from people, but if you're only doing it for that reason there's something wrong with you. I see it as a perk of the job--it's not like record store jobs pay a whole hell of a lot. In most jobs the employees have little perks like that. You get to take home food from food service jobs sometimes, a relative works for a brewery and she gets free beer sometimes. My boyfriend is in a band, promotes other shows, dj's--all kinds of stuff. I think I can count on my hand the number of shows I've paid to get into in the past five years. I don't feel bad about it.

The whole thing can be a total mindfuck, but you can't let being aware of it become something that makes you go insane. If record store nerds hadn't picked up those cd's, one of the regular record nerds--I know you know what I mean--would have and squirreled it away instead. Or a local DJ would have. And the thing about all that is, half the time all these people run in the same circles and share it with each other anyway. So I don't know that you really are keeping it away from the great unwashed because for the most part they wouldn't know what the heck they were looking at anyway.

Man, Koolzip, you sure have got me running my mouth off today. Sheesh. Sorry for the eye strain. :D

[Wapsie B]

6. Talk about bastardizing the English language.

Way back when the term elite meant the best of the best in whatever area you were talking about. Now let the Rovian spin machine frame the debate and take ownership of the word and suddenly elite has only a negative meaning. This is just another way for the puppet masters to divide the public. It's a false premise. To the spin meisters an elitist can be anyone with a college education.

[XNASA]

7. Aren't we really talking about Populism/Elitism here?

And the tension that exists between the two?

I say, tear down all the walls and start over.

[asthmaticeog]

8. .

1) No

2) Fuck no.

3) Context is everything.

4) No. If you're a dick about it, it probably makes you a snob, but if you're just diggin' on what you dig, no, no fuckin' way.

5) Yes.

6) No-one's necessarily an elitist in that scenario.

7) Only if that person is a pathetic little cryass.

8) Two schools of thought on this: 1. If something moves a great many people, mabe at least check it out with an open mind. 2. When the masses go bonkers for something, FLEE.

9) Damo Suzuki

Koolzip, read this ==> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385479433/qid=1138642772/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6117565-8560636?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[RandomKoolzip]

10. Book looks like it defends Socio-economic elitism, which I think sucks.

Cultural elitism: now THERE'S something I can get behind, however.

[asthmaticeog]

13. It doesn't.

It defends meritocracy. And really, bro, you really should know that I'd sooner put two dozen paper cuts on my glans and dunk my unit in boiling mercurochrome than recommend a book that defended socio-economic elitism.

[RandomKoolzip]

19. I'd rather slather raw goosemeat all over my shiveled and ineffective

sack o' gonads and dip it daintily into a tank of pirhanas than ever read that book, you toffee-nosed poofter!

Actually, it looks interesting. I think I had it confused with "In Defense of Nepotism," another recent book whose reviewers seemed to hint at a kind of S-E elitism at work. Thanks for the heads up, prole!

[JVS]

9. Let the hoi-polloi have their trash, there are finer things to be enjoyed!

And in the words of Hedonism-bot "I apologize for nothing!"

[Dora]

11. I would answer, but this thread is below me. n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

14. Ouch! Me like.

:thumbsup:

[Crankie Avalon]

12. Well, "It's a Wonderful Life" seems like a pretty shmaltzy...

...crowd-pleasing movie to me, so if you are "elitist" then I guess I might be even more elitist than you? :shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

18. It is, but it's the greatest piece of emotional manipulation I've ever

seen. It's like America's own "Triumph of the Will." I can watch it over and over and not get bored.

[wildhorses]

15. my thoughts at this moment

1) No!

2) Hell!! No!

3) your hiney

4) No! going back to the first answer...

5) I like the alliteration of the MM and DD ya got going

6) define elitist as in reverse snobism or what

7) depends on if you say it to their face and whether or not you have chocolate chip cookies
when you say it

8) part one...taste, it's all in your mouth...same as mine
part two...condescension what happens on your bathroom mirror when you take a shower


9) always thought Ringo was cute

[matcom]

16. i am WAY to good to post in THIS thread

:eyes:

[RandomKoolzip]

27. Snob.

[matcom]

28. that's 'ELITIST SNOB' to YOU fella

[RandomKoolzip]

29. Oh, so the great MATCOM decides to slum it and post

on my lowly proletarian thread! Well, I got news for ya, Mr. Massachussets Liberal: EAT A DICK!

[matcom]

32. you better fucking bow down to me

just for the simple reason that i decided to 'slum' in one of your inane ramblings. you should feel damned privileged! in fact, i want $$ for this. i don't whore for just ANYONE

[RandomKoolzip]

35. That's not what I've heard.

Scuttlebutt around the office suggests that you've been throwing your ass around to all the wolves in cell block F. Money? I'd rather give you syphillis.

[matcom]

37. already have some

one AGAIN, you fail to provide :eyes:

[RandomKoolzip]

38. Uh...chlamydia, then?

Come on, it's tasty. Nummy nummy!

[matcom]

44. ok but...

i'm gonna charge you for the privelage :D

[RandomKoolzip]

46. IT"S A DEAL!

Is your jaw loosened up yet?

[jobycom]

17. It is not elitist to say "I didn't really like that film, because it ____"

It is elitist to say "Speilberg's works are all crap." The first statement is your statement of opinion, the second is an insult to anyone who likes Spielberg (just using that one director because you brought him up--same would be true of any other widely respected director or artist). This doesn't apply to artists who are commonly considered to be bad, like Ed Wood.

Also, if you find yourself going in to any big budget film expecting to hate it and searching for reasons to, then you're probably elitist. A good clue would be if you hate every film that has ever made money, especially films that have strong critical acclaim as well (Titanic, Spielberg films, etc). Either you aren't seeing something that everyone else is, or you are opposed to such films for some other reason.

There is nothing wrong with disliking a popular film. We all have pop films we hate. (For me the two biggies are Ferris Buehler and Lord of the Rings).

Money and background has nothing to do with whether a person is elitist any more than having "many black friends" prevents a white person from being a racist (to quote an old cliche).

Expressing a negative opinion about a work of art, such as "I think this director used too many cliches" is not hurting a person's feelings. Saying "This film is talentless shit and there is not one redeeming quality to it" is a direct and offensive insult to everyone who does like the film. That would insult their taste, intelligence, integrity, and everything else.

Taste is subjective, but skill is not. I don't like Lord of the Rings, for instance, but I would be blind to not see the incredible skill it took to pull off such a project. A person may not like Whitney Houston or Tom Cruise (to mention two critically acclaimed performers commonly trashed around here), but to deny that they have skill at what they do (even if that skill is pleasing audiences and critics more than singing or acting) is ignorance or stubbornness, and as I said before, is an insult to people who do like them. Since most elitists seem intelligence, such a negative opinion seems more like willful dislike than any legitimate dislike.

It is not condescension to try to understand where an artist is coming from and to try to understand his or her art from that perspective. Still doesn't mean you have to like what they do, but immediately disliking a work of art without an attempt to understand why others like it or why the artist made it is either, in stupid people, ignorance, or, in smart people, elitism. Different art has different expectations. You can't compare the music of Lyle Lovette to that of Mozart, they are trying to do different things. Also, just because you understand what an artist is trying to do doesn't mean they do it well, or that you have to like the attempt. I'm just saying it's not condescension to try to understand a work from the perspective of people who do like it. If you don't want to make the effort, then don't condemn them for liking the work (and that includes comments like "This work is talentless crap," because that is an insult to people who think the work has merit).

Just my opinions. Probably wrong, as always. Also, when I say "you" in the above junk, I don't mean you personally, I'm just using a generalized "you." And of course, none of the above is concrete, or we'd all be snobs to some degree. :-)

[RandomKoolzip]

25. Interesting points, but some I disagree with.

I disagree that expressing an over-the-top neagtive opinion about a work of art (or a mainstream director like Speilberg) is an insult to fans of that work. "Disco Sucks" or "Corporate Rock STILL Sucks" or any of the other slogans of that sort are not direct attacks on the audience, but a direct attack on the object. And a person's opinion of a work of art can only affect the fan of the work of art if you place that critic on a pedestal and accept the critc as superior. If you view him/her as an equal, there's no insult when he/she issues a calumny against a certain work of art.

I've had this argument before with my best friend, who insisted that saying "Bon Jovi sucks!" is insulting to anyone who might like Bon Jovi. I disagree, and I maintain that having a colorful, over-the-top opinion, either negative or positive, enhances the worth of the object/artist in question; negative or positive, the fact is that the critic is PAYING ATTENTION to the work/artist, which imbues that work with value. If the artist/work's fans get insulted, then they are taking art far too seriously and need to examine their relationship to the cultural artifacts they hold dear.

Your point about skill is right on the money. I hate a lot of stuff that obviously took lots of craft and patience and talent to put together; if the end result doesn't move me, then it doesn't move me. It doesn't matter WHAT you put in a sausage, you could put the finest, tastiest meats in there, but if in the end the sausage tastes bad, it's a bad sausage.

[jobycom]

56. Heck, I probably disagree with some of it, and I wrote it!

I understand what you're saying, but a fan of someone's work is going to feel insulted by someone who makes a blanket condemnation. There's no way a fan of Bon Jovi can take "Bon Jovi sucks!" as anything but an attack on their tastes. It's not "I think Bon Jovi sucks," or "I don't like Bon Jovi," it's a direct statement that you think Bon Jovi sucks, which to a Bon Jovi fan means that you think their taste sucks. That's an insult, no matter what. They don't have to feel you represent all critics to feel insulted, they know that you personally have insulted them, personally.

And it's an issue of respect. Someone who tells me someone I like sucks doesn't have respect for my taste. If it's a popular artist then the lack of respect is for large segments of the population. That is the definition of elitist--not just disliking an art work, but disrespecting anyone who else who likes it. That's very different from "I don't like that person," or "That music sounds like crap to me," or some such subjective comment. "Bon Jovi sucks!" leaves no room for artistic disagreement.

There are people who can pull of comments like that without being insulting. They make it obvious that they are just hotheads with colorful language, and people laugh at them. Still, you have to know someone to know that about them.

[anarch]

40. Spielberg's works are all crap.

:P

[jobycom]

57. ROFL!

All art is crap. It's all just the ravings of egomaniacs who think they matter.

[JitterbugPerfume]

20. if it is good it is good --if it is bad it is bad

but the difference is in the eye of the beholder

[ismnotwasm]

21. Aww, relax

You like what you like.
I like Slayer, Soulfly, Dope, Billie Holliday, The Ramones, The Dead Kennedys, Alice Cooper, Wiccan new age crap, Cradle of Filth, Bill Withers and the entire Riverdance soundtrack to name a few. I bet many of those names make people cringe. I don't care. (BTW I'm NOT Wiccan) I come to the lounge and lurk for the "elitest" music that sometimes comes up in posts to get ideas for music I might like. And I've gotten some great music experiences out of it. Which makes me a chickenshit wanna be elitist I guess.
Most movies I can live without, just the way I am.
Art is always subjective. I, for instance, found "piss Christ" to be a beautiful work of art.
I lived on the street as a kid, lived on welfare for years and I developed a loathing for the middle class that I had to get over. (It started with Cabbage patch dolls. I couldn't afford one for my daughter, she wanted one, and they isn't a more Hairy Butt Ugly doll ever invented But to own one was quite the thing back then) I still have problems with attitude, and I'm considered middle class now. Shit. Probably why I still say motherfucker.
But to me, heart and soul of art starts on the street, starts with the poor, starts with the youth, starts with the dispossessed, starts with the edgy, the mentally ill, starts with a need to express soul. Sometimes it starts with a scream and sometimes ends up art.

I don't have a favorite Beatle.

[LeftyMom]

22. .

1) No.

2) No.


3) Elitism as opposed to populism? I'd say it's pretty serious, but elitism in the context of good taste really isn't. You like what you like and nobody else is hurt by it.


4) I'm not sure low budget cable shows are elitist. I'd say it means you're smart and have good taste. (But not all Spielberg sutff is bad, Jaws is a very good movie.)


5) In my observation music and movies tend to alternate between envelope-pushing and comfortable conformity. A quick check of one's radio should confirm that we're mired ina conformity phase right now. Musicians are always innovating, but there are times when the ear of the general public isn't listening to the innovations and this is one.


6) I get that elitist accusation simply for having taste, too. Elitism has a class component, so unless you prefer the things you do because you percieve them as being economicly advantageous or the things you dislike as being beneath you, I don't think there's much to it.


7) Not at all, unless you're directing your criticism at the artist directly and focusing on thier flaws rather than those of thier work.


8) Taste is definitely subjective. Juest because I don't like horror movies, rap and the works of Jane Austen doesn't mean that they aren't art.


9) Paul, I guess.

[RandomKoolzip]

30. You don't like Jane Austen, either?

Wow! I thought I was the only one.

Good points.

[Susang]

24. Calling a person "elitist"

Just another way of attacking the person, rather than dealing with the substance of their arguments. It immediately provokes a negative emotional reaction, putting the accused on the defensive and forcing him/her to deal with the accusation of elitism rather than the argument itself.

It's a cowardly tactic and reeks of desperation. Just my humble opinion, of course. ;-)

<Don't have a favorite Beatle, I prefer the Kinks!>

[RandomKoolzip]

26. Again you display for me the reasons why you're one of my favorite DUers.

[Susang]

52. It's because I like the Kinks

Isn't it? :P

[anarch]

31. it strikes me that being "elitist" would mean trying to exclude others

from something. I mean, elitists in the political realm would believe that only people of a certain class, level of education, or what-have-you should be allowed to take part in the governance of our society...and "elitists" when it comes to art, film, music or whatever would necessarily have to think something along the same lines, where the idea would be "My music/art/movies are beyond your ability to comprehend or enjoy."

Appreciation of art is most definitely subjective, although I believe there are objective (or at least societally defined) ways of looking at its quality. I mean, I think we can all agree that Hoobastank sucks, for instance.

I dunno...I think it's mostly just a matter of personal taste.


...

I'd have to go with John.

[sundog]

34. train is a shitty band

[matcom]

36. and the window is now shut

BAM!

:D

[sundog]

39. bitch

O8)

[dolo amber]

41. I like Oasis

And pie.

[RandomKoolzip]

42. At the same time?

Philistine.

[DS1]

43. When I use the word, I'm typically referring to the snoot-ism

you sometimes find amoung the art-crowds. Not every arty person is snooty, but the few that are help define the negative feelings towards them.

Anyone who spends more than 30 seconds ripping apart a popcorn movie because they don't like a director or star is snooty.

That's my statement and I'm standing by it.

[RandomKoolzip]

48. Some people really go overboard on that shit, you're right.

I hate really impenetrable "art-overdose" movies as much as I hate Hollyood ooze. I can't stand Bergman, for instance.

[GirlinContempt]

45. oh ffs

1) Is it elitist to dislike a work of art because I genuinely didn't like it?
No. It isn't.

2) Or should I just pretend to like something in order to prevent charges of "elitism?"
No, that is ridiculous. And if you don't see *any* merit in it, don't say you do to make people 'feel better' about their opinions. If peoples feelings are so fragile that you can't say "I think that album was awful, I can't think of one good thing about it", they need to toughen the fuck up and learn that just because you can HAVE opinions doesn't mean you shouldn't ever be required to THINK about them.

3) Is "elitism" really that heinous of a charge in the first place?
No, no it isn't. In this context, I don't think it is. Sort of reminds me of being accused of being socially elite because I don't invite every freaking person I've ever met or seen to sit with me at shows or come party. I don't like a lot of those people and I'm not going to subject myself to hours of either a)disingenuous tedious bullshit that will leave me nauseous or b)awkward bumblings for conversation culminating in me walking away to go have fun somewhere. If shit like that, or shit like what you're talking about is elitism, I accept the charge with joy.

4) Going back to the first question, let's say I have NO Speilberg or John Hughes or any big budget Hollywood stuff on DVD at my house, but I do have "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Harold and Maude" and lots of Mystey Science Theatre (all of which I rented or taped off of the TV) on VHS. Does it make me an elitist to prefer those to, oh say, "Forrest Gump?" (which I saw and didn't care much for.)
No, it doesn't. It means you have a personal sense of taste, and other people have a personal sense of insecurity and can't deal with life.

5) Without radical musicians, tempramental artists and "elitist" critics pushing envelopes and demanding more from art than standard industry cliches and shallow fluff, would we not all still be listening to Mitch Miller and watching Doris Day movies?
Yes, we probably would.
Thomas A. Edison: "Show me a thoroughly satisfied man and I will show you a failure."
Thomas A. Edison: "Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress."

6) Let's say I make 9.75 an hour (I do.) Let's say I work doing physical labor (I do.) Let's also say that neither of my parents ever made more than 20 grand a year (they didn't). Let's say I'm the product of a trailer park father (I am). Let's say I really dislike big budget Hollywood movies and top 40 radio stuff. (I do.) Let's say I prefer "indie rock" and obscure films (I do.) Does my economic status cancel out any charges of "elitism?" It seems strange to me that I could be branded an "elitist" for having cultural opinions that stereotypically do not flow naturally from my class status. One might then say that those who make MORE money than me or come from more priveliged backgrounds might actually be the REAL "elitists," since they are insisting that I behave like a member of my class and get "into" NASCAR, football, sappy Hollywood tripe, pop-country music, etc. Who is the real elitist in this scenario?
hmmm sounds about right :P

7) Is expressing a negative opinion about a work of art the same thing as hurting a person's feelings?
God god god no. As I said above, just cause you have an opinion doesn't mean you shouldn't have to think about it. If someone is so insecure that their FEELINGS get hurt cause you don't like some movie, they need to grow up. Seriously. My friends call me on shit I like ALL THE TIME, and I have to either present valid things about it for discussion, or accept their opinions without challenge. If I got offended or upset, they'd think I needed to be medicated. Unless you say "You are a fucking idiot for liking X" it's just people with no sense of perspective getting bent outta shape yet again.

8) Is taste subjective, or should we all try to "appreciate" (read: reluctantly give insincere props to) art which does not move US, but moves a great deal of other people? Is that not condescension?
No, we shouldn't. Period. That is bullshit. I mean, acknowledging it as something that moves a lot of people is one thing, but saying things you don't think about it just because other people like it is stupid stupid stupid.

9) Who's your favorite Beatle?
Ringo

[RandomKoolzip]

51. Do you want to move to Chicago?

We have a spare room, you can stay here as long as you'd like. :thumbsup:

[GirlinContempt]

54. Your offer intrigues me

Throw in some free meals and I'll pack a bag :thumbsup:
Know any cute boys I can make cry with my oh so superior collection of albums, movies, and all around taste?

[RandomKoolzip]

59. Yup. I work with some really cute indie rock boys.

All drunken, emotional, slobby wrecks, but they're easy on the eyes. plus, it's CHICAGO! Greatest city in the world and all that stuff.

[GirlinContempt]

61. Yeah, ok, know anyone less easy on the eyes

and easier on the brain? ;)

oooo will you gimmie free food?

[RandomKoolzip]

62. Hey, I'm a cook.

I can always smuggle some duck meat or something out of the fridge.

[GirlinContempt]

63. I prefer the meat of

10 baby lambs marinated in duckling tears.

[RandomKoolzip]

66. Can do!

As a side, may I suggest a single plum floating in a sea of fromaldehyde in an upturned bowler hat?

[GirlinContempt]

67. OOoooOooo

Sounds luscious
*shoving clothes in bag*
What music should I bring?

[RandomKoolzip]

68. Nickelback.

[GirlinContempt]

69. Best of Nickleback?

nicklebacks greatest hits? complete works of nickleback? nickleback redux? Nickleback this is the song that never ends?

I keep them and my oasis/green day collection together at all times.

[RandomKoolzip]

71. Nickelback to the Future?

Baby got Nickelback? Nickelbackdafucup?

[GirlinContempt]

72. Nickleback Burana?

Are We Not Nickleback? Violin concerto in nickleback minor?

[Montauk6]

47. Hmm, let's go down the list.

1) No, absolutely not.

2) Definitely not.

3) I prefer "man of specific tastes" myself. Plus, a lot of times elitism gets marred by an evil strain of conformity (like being cool or hip), where people glom onto something because they feel that that's where the elite meet to greet. As Jake LaMotta said, "It defeats its own poypose."

4) Some would "outsnob" you on the Capra and even H&M (everyone's fave cult black comedy); you'd even get high-hatted because you don't have MST on DVD.

5) You gotta problem with "The Man Who Knew Too Much"??? Actually, I always thought Doris was cool after I heard about that rumor that she had a thang with Sly Stone. And my mommy used to let me stay up late on Monday nights to watch her sitcom. John Dehner as Cy Bennett, now THAT was classic TV!

6) You might get pegged with the "pretentious" tag, but wear it proudly, son! Besides who else but privileged folks could afford GOOD tickets to NASCAR and other sporting events and even some pop/country concerts. You certainly have to have a load of cash to haul the family to see Cats or Lion King.

7) Well, I was in a conversation with some folks about movies one time, and I mentioned how much I liked "Crimes & Misdemeanors," which prompted a young lady who I was kinda attracted to to blurt out, "I can't stand Woody Allen, and I'll never watch any of his movies; he's a child molester." I was more taken aback by the narrowmindedness than my feelings being hurt. But I know it happens. I sometimes seek out negative reviews of movies I like just to see why it's unliked. But that's just me.

8) Taste is very subjective. I think it's fine to appreciate that a lot of people love a certain thing without having to love the thing itself. For example, I know a universe of moviegoers love Citizen Kane and Casablanca but neither one does or did much for me.

9) I'd thought McCartney but lately I've been developing an appreciation for George Harrison.

[leftofthedial]

49. you are not cool enough for me to discuss elitism with

ta ta!

[EstimatedProphet]

50. I would say:

1) Is it elitist to dislike a work of art because I genuinely didn't like it?

Nah.


2) Or should I just pretend to like something in order to prevent charges of "elitism?"

Definately not. Art is about expression of the human condition. Sometimes the human condition is "Fuck off!"


3) Is "elitism" really that heinous of a charge in the first place?

Depends on the context. Republican elitism, which takes the form of keeping everyone down so that they can be indentured servants, is the definition of heinous.


4) Going back to the first question, let's say I have NO Speilberg or John Hughes or any big budget Hollywood stuff on DVD at my house, but I do have "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Harold and Maude" and lots of Mystey Science Theatre (all of which I rented or taped off of the TV) on VHS. Does it make me an elitist to prefer those to, oh say, "Forrest Gump?" (which I saw and didn't care much for.)

Dude, that's my movie collection! Throw in some Tick and Dr. Katz and we could exchenge them!


5) Without radical musicians, tempramental artists and "elitist" critics pushing envelopes and demanding more from art than standard industry cliches and shallow fluff, would we not all still be listening to Mitch Miller and watching Doris Day movies?

I agree. Long live Jerry!


6) Let's say I make 9.75 an hour (I do.) Let's say I work doing physical labor (I do.) Let's also say that neither of my parents ever made more than 20 grand a year (they didn't). Let's say I'm the product of a trailer park father (I am). Let's say I really dislike big budget Hollywood movies and top 40 radio stuff. (I do.) Let's say I prefer "indie rock" and obscure films (I do.) Does my economic status cancel out any charges of "elitism?" It seems strange to me that I could be branded an "elitist" for having cultural opinions that stereotypically do not flow naturally from my class status. One might then say that those who make MORE money than me or come from more priveliged backgrounds might actually be the REAL "elitists," since they are insisting that I behave like a member of my class and get "into" NASCAR, football, sappy Hollywood tripe, pop-country music, etc. Who is the real elitist in this scenario?

Actually, that doesn't cancel out elitism. In actuality, freepers are elitist, because they're proud of their lack of education and intellect, and condemn people that have it. I would agree with you that people who expect you to 'keep your place' are the elitists.

7) Is expressing a negative opinion about a work of art the same thing as hurting a person's feelings?

It shouldn't, especially for an artist. I would think the worst thing an artist could hear is 'I don't care.' At least disliking is active, and is a reaction.


8) Is taste subjective, or should we all try to "appreciate" (read: reluctantly give insincere props to) art which does not move US, but moves a great deal of other people? Is that not condescension?

Appreciation actually should include dislinking something, because it is a reaction.


9) Who's your favorite Beatle?

The Dytiscids:

[Burma Jones]

55. I suppose I'll respond...it is beneath me though ..

1. Of Course Not - De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

2. Nope, fuck 'em if they don't have enough confidence in their own taste

3. Only if you're talking about American Idol, then some folks will attack you.

4. De Gustibus Non Disputandum est

5. Natch

6. And that's why half of MY family dislikes me.....

7. Depends on how objectively you state your opinion

8. One can appreciate the technical merit of art without having an aesthetic response to the subject.

9. John Lennon

[GOPisEvil]

60. Nine answers to your discussion questions

1. No. Like what you like.

2. Don't pretend, that makes you a phony. Phonies suck.

3. I don't think so. There are certains items that I like a lot. I'm an elitist about them. Does one brand of olive oil taste that much better? To some it does, and they're not a bad person for being an elitist, they just have a preference.

4. It only makes you an elitist if you belittle those that like things that you dislike.

5. In short, yes. I can appreciate something that is different more than I can appreciate something that is bland, even if the "different" thing is not something I particularly enjoy.

6. Once again, like what you like. As long as you don't claim your preferences are somehow better than mine, we're all good. You can be an elitist without being an asshole. In fact, you can be an asshole without being an elitist, but that's a separate dicussion.

7. Only if they created the art, but honestly, if an artist can't take criticism, they're not much of an artist. If you like a film, and I don't, we can have an honest disagreement about the film's relative merits. If I think you're a troglodyte for liking the film, I'm an asshole.

8. I think we owe art an honest attempt. I used to really dislike Jackson Pollack's work until I saw one. Then I got it. If I create something, and you give it an honest try and don't like it, I can't ask any more of you.

9. George.

[HEyHEY]

64. I don't discuss such things with those below my social standing

[Left Is Write]

65. I think the term people mean when they throw around "elitist" is "snob."

Whether you yourself are a snob I couldn't say, but I do think people say "elitist" when they mean "snob."

[RandomKoolzip]

73. That sounds about right.

Although I've been called both. "Snob" I'll wear proudly, but "Elitist" connotes material wealth and owning some measure of control over other people's lives, which is NOT me at all.

[GirlinContempt]

74. bump