DU Music Experts...

[Left Is Write]

Please help me define the terms "punk" "new wave" and "post punk" in a way that my teenage daughter can understand.

Thank you. :D

[HEyHEY]

1. "not the kinda crap you friggin kids listen to these days"

That should cover it

[dolo amber]

2. *waits for the 48 paragraph RandomKoolzip reply*

:popcorn:

:D

[GirlinContempt]

5. shove over

:popcorn:

[sundog]

16. i'm waiting too

he must be working on it now

i can't wait

:popcorn:

[Susang]

23. Is there room on that bench for me

I'm eagerly awaiting his treatise as well. ;-)

[GOPisEvil]

26. So is he still writing it or what?

:popcorn:

Why do I get the feeling we're waiting for Godot? :think:

[sundog]

31. yes he is

this is almost as exciting as when i first saw "xanadu" as a child

i got there 30 minutes early & couldn't WAIT for the lights to dim

this is almost as exciting as that

:popcorn:

[dolo amber]

38. I'm sure it's only moments away!

I can feel it!! :bounce:

:popcorn:

[ghostsofgiants]

43. We can only hope!

[dolo amber]

74. ...aaaaaaaany minute now....

[Xipe Totec]

63. Didi, Didn't we do this yesterday?

:evilgrin:

[momophile]

3. can you just play her examples? nt

[Hugin]

4. I'm not sure I've got my time line straight...

Disco --> New Wave Late 1970's (Reaction To Disco) Original Bands/Groups "Blondie", "The Knack".
--> Punk Early 1980's (Reaction to New Wave) Original Bands/Groups "The Clash".

[Squeech]

20. Wrong

Punk authorities (talk about yer oxymorons) speak of the Class of '77, including the Sex Pistols, the Clash, and the Damned from England, and the Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, and Television from the CBGB's scene in New York. That's really where the term and the concept took off. It was in some ways a reaction, but not to New Wave (which didn't even exist yet), but to big arena-rock superstar bands who the punks thought couldn't possibly understand what kids growing up in the hardscrabble '70s were going through. Johnny Rotten used to wear a Pink Floyd tee shirt where he'd scrawled the words "I HATE" above the name of the band.

If forced to give a 25 words or less definition of punk, I'd say that it was an idealization that musical self-expression was everybody's birthright, and it shouldn't be arbitrarily denied on the grounds that the expressor couldn't play his instrument. Most punk bands were aggressive in their sound and/or attitude, but not all; many punks (especially in England) took strong political stands, but certainly not all.

New Wave arose circa 1980, after punk, and was an attempt to harness the energy of punk within more orthodox musical skills, and at the same time give it more of a fashion sense, and arguably mutated into goth (e.g. Siouxie and the Banshees).

You could say the same about post-punk, except I think post-punk was still all about aggression (e.g. Bob Mould and his various bands).

That's my take on it, and I am certain about the timeline, but for the rest, YMMV.

[khashka]

32. Hey Squeech!

We use different words but essentially we say much the same thang. (And use some of the same examples!).

Check out my post below and let me know if you agree.

Nice analysis by the way :)

Khash.

[Squeech]

37. Thank you

Yours is good too-- I think your phrasing of the DIY ethos is more cogent than mine.

The one point where I think I would quibble with you is your description of new wave as stylized. That's true primarily of the New Romantic types, the ones with boatloads of makeup-- and I can't recall any of the names right now, except Ultravox, who I quite liked until Midge Ure took over. But I like Zappa's point too, that New Wave was "punk sterilizing its own safety pin." There were many many bands who tried to be the next Police (or Knack), doing what was essentially normal pop at a faster tempo, and they weren't stylized, they were just boring.

Thinking about it further, I ought to say something intelligent about New Order, who in some ways exemplify New Wave, at least that strand of it that can be conflated with disco. The short version of their story is that their smartest member killed himself (when they were Joy Division), and the rest of them had to figure out how to carry on without him. They were stylized because that was the limit of their musical conception.

Nothing like a good musical discussion thread to lure me out of the woodwork. Thanks all!

[Hugin]

77. What you say is true on the world (primarily European) scene...

However, in the U.S. it went (as usual) in the opposite order.

It's true "Blondie" (Deborah Harry) started off in Europe as
a "punk" singer. But, she wasn't carried in the U.S. until the
music industry had "tamed" her image and started marketing to
that large and growing sector of the American market who were
disgusted with Disco.

It was after this first taste of something different which caused
a surge of interest in this new and different flavor of music.

In fact, it was on the back of one of "Blondie's" albums where
I first read the words "New Wave". (I can scan it in and show
it to you if necessary)

Also, in the late 70's (I bet they could put an exact date on
it) Disco and the Disco culture experienced an Implosion. It
was an amazing transformation. One day it was there and the
next it wasn't. Very few musicians survived the transition.
Strangely enough, Michael Jackson is one who did. If Mtv were
anything other than a Marketing Organ for the record companies
I'd love to see some kind of analysis and retrospective on the
events which led to this. Oh, well... Maybe on The History Channel.

[Ron Green]

6. Hey, I'd like to know what these terms mean, too.

If someone could put it in objective musical terms, instead of saying, "listen to _______, they're punk," or "_________ is alt-rock."

[Left Is Write]

7. Yes. "Objective musical terms" describes what I'm looking for also.

[Hugin]

9. At the time music and television were starting to influence each other...

So, the so-called Image was part of the act.

Before then when musical groups were put on T.V. it was as a "set-piece" show.

[GirlinContempt]

8. I could write it all out, but someone beat me to it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Wave_music

Contains links to punk and post punk, i think the new wave article is pretty much right on

[ghostsofgiants]

11. This paragraph especially sums it up, I think...

Later still, New Wave came to imply a less noisy, poppier sound, and to include acts manufactured by record labels, while the term post-punk was coined to describe the darker, less pop-influenced groups. Although distinct, punk, New Wave, and post-punk all shared common ground: an energetic reaction to the supposedly overproduced, uninspired popular music of the 1970s. Many groups fit easily into two or all three of the categories over their lifespan.

[Left Is Write]

13. Thank you too...

Those overlaps are hard to define/explain.

(This is inspired by an 18-year-old who once rolled her eyes at my use of "preppie" to describe certain 1980s fashions, as apparently the meaning of "preppie" has changed in the last 25 years.)

[ghostsofgiants]

17. No problem.

I'm fairly new to this whole post-punk/new wave business myself (thanks to GirlinContempt, haha) so I know where you're coming from (or where your aughter is coming from, I guess).

[Left Is Write]

12. Thanks...

That's very helpful.

[GirlinContempt]

14. No prob

[XNASA]

10. Punk - Guitars & Drums only......

New Wave - Just add synthesizers

Post Punk - Bands with punk roots who went on to sell bunches of records, like the 'Police'.

[LynneSin]

22. I never really thought of the Police as Punk anything

:shrug:

[bbernardini]

79. Ah, what about Devo?

A lot of their early work could easily be classified as punk, and they had keyboards.

Nobody's going to tell me that "Gut Feeling/Slap Your Mammy" isn't punk. :)

[taterguy]

15. Monologue from Decline of Western Civilization

"I have excellent news for the world. There's no such thing as New Wave. It does not exist. It's a figment of lame kinds of imagination. There was never any such thing as New Wave. It was the polite thing to say when you were trying to explain you were not into the boring old rock 'n roll but you didn't dare to say punk because you were afraid to get kicked out of the party and they wouldn't give you coke any more. There's New Music, there's New Underground Sound, there's Noise, there's Punk, there's Power Pop, there's Ska, there's Rockabilly, but New Wave doesn't mean shit."

Can provide more insight when I'm not distracted by my day job

[tigereye]

55. punk was anything that could be played IMO

the American version didn't really involve mohawks, like the kids today tend to think punk required. That seemed much more a Brit thing at the time, at least where I was. It was pretty much anything goes. And it was very non-commercial (at least in my experience back then) and often quite political and even arty. I think the "labels" really limit the music, actually. I think it was this wonderful amalgam of people who had ideas and just went out there and played; including women, who really were much more unlikely to get up there and go for it prior to the punk "scene." When I think of American punk, I think of the Ramones, the NY Dolls, and Per Ubu.

It was considered very uncool to even think about getting a record deal or what have you (at least among the people I knew), and when you read stuff about the Clash and Pistols in the old days, they really did want to be signed, despite their anarchic and philosophical overlay. Hardcore (which came after punk) was much more formalized, in my view, and more limited in it's repetitiveness, although not necessarily it's content. I tend to think that that is what people now think of as "punk", or the more typical pop-punk bands like Green Day, etc. Just my view. And then there is the Hot Topic thing, my college years bastardized into a store for pre-teens. Weird.

New wave, huh, that argument is beyond me.

Just one old schooler's view. Your mileage may vary. RKZ will lay it out in a much more eloquent and cogent way, I have no doubt. Probably a good listen to Bad Brains would be a great eye opener!

[rbnyc]

18. Check out this site.

http://starling.rinet.ru/music/temp/genres.html

[LynneSin]

19. Here's how I see it

First to define the difference between Punk and New Wave really is looking at the music itself. Punk really broken it down to mere basics with the music that they played - many times using just a few basic chords throughout the entire song. Sometimes the band had musicians that didn't know how to play their instruments (aka Syd Vicious of the Sex Pistols) and singers who could hardly carry a tune. And yet all of this combined create music that was anarchist in nature.

New Wave was the exact opposite of that and although many of the songs had punkish beats to them the music was much more evolved although a bit hedonistic in lyrics and sound. Synthesizers were a big part of the New Wave moment along with big hair, big clothes and lots of makeup. I would probably say New Wave evolved more from Disco than it did from Punk.

Post-Punk really is just any 'Punk' style music released anytime probably after 1990. Most of the music is still based on the repeat of the same few basic chords but probably there is more musical structure to the song then what was found in true punk. Some people also refer to Post-Punk as Pop-Punk with probably one of the best examples would be the early works of Green Day (I would hardly call them anything even close to punk today, not that it's bad or anything)

[ghostsofgiants]

25. "Post-Punk really is just any 'Punk' style music released..."

"...anytime probably after 1990"

Then how come bands like Mission of Burma, The Psychedelic Furs and Public Image Ltd. are all called post-punk, when they operated in the early 80s?

[LynneSin]

29. I thought of them more as New Wave

But that's just me

[jpgray]

39. To say nothing of Wire, who came out with "post-punk" in '78, '79

Some would even say '77.

[ghostsofgiants]

40. I've been meaning to check them out...

Not overly familiar with them.

[jpgray]

41. .....

:o

You need their first three albums, stat. I'm sure GiC can help you out. If not, at least check out some of these songs from somewhere to see if they're your thing--their first album at least has tremendous historical importance and should really be heard as a whole:

"Ex Lion Tamer"
"Mannequin"
"Fragile"
"Options R"
"Mr. Suit"
"Dot Dash"

"Outdoor Miner"

"The 15th"
"Map Reference 41°N 93°W"

[ghostsofgiants]

42. Muchos gracias.

What are the albums called?

[jpgray]

45. Pink Flag, Chairs Missing, and 154

Pink Flag is their first, most "punkish" and based on a lot of critics their best. Chairs Missing is sort of edging away from punk entirely and almost nothing on 154 would be properly described as punk.

[ghostsofgiants]

47. Cool, thank you.

[jpgray]

48. Make sure to post a thread saying how wrong jpgray is if you hate 'em

:D

[ghostsofgiants]

51. Oh, you can count on it, pal.

:P

[GirlinContempt]

30. Er, no.

No no no no.

Early punk bands were just as often complex both musically and lyrically as they were simplistic and driving. Punk is a term that has come to describe bands LIKE the sex pistols, but that isn't punk in and of itself. The Sex Pistols were an aberration within the genre and can't be used as an example. Listen to Gen X, Siouxie, the clash.

New Wave evolved more from punk than anything else. Theres a reason 'punk rock' and 'new wave' used to mean the same thing. They took punk and experimented with it, creating a new genre in the process. Just because some new wave ended up using synthesized sounds and so did disco doesn't mean thats where it came from. Thats about the only thing they have in common, and by that score you could say rap music evolved from the BeeGees.

Post-punk is NOT punk released after 1990. It refers to a period in the 80's (post 70's punk boom) of darker experimental punk, different from new wave in that it was less poppy and ended up using less synthetic sounds. Public Image Ltd. was post punk. Green Day was NOT post punk in any way shape or form. Post punk is a totally separate genre from punk. Post punk and pop punk are NOT the same thing AT ALL. Post punk was an artier, darker, experimental form of music that appealed to a totally different demographic than pop punk. Pistols were pop, Joy Division was post.

[asthmaticeog]

33. You're in need of some correctin', I'm afraid.

Post-punk begins in 1978, with Gang of Four, Public Image Limited, the Pop Group and Wire. And it has NOTHING to do with Pop-punk, which is derived straight from the Buzzcocks, a mid-70s punk band, and the Descendents, an early-80s hXc band.

What you're describing as "New Wave" is in fact "New Romantic."

And listen to Television, the Clash or Nomeansno and tell me that inability to play is essential to punk.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

36. Nomeansno

"Have you heard the news? The dead walk!"

[GirlinContempt]

53. snap

[tigereye]

56. see this is why this argument/discussion/amnalysis is so

so difficult. Television should almost be in it's own category.... Many bands with many different views of music were able to operate under the punk rubric. It had a lot of room. There were a lot of talented 60's/ 70s folk who just got crazy sick of preogressive music and giant production rock.

not disagreeing with you per se, asth, just stirring the pot.

[Beware the Beast Man]

62. What about Tom Verlaine?

I would consider Television to be one of the first crop of punk bands, yet they were all talented musicians.

[GirlinContempt]

72. Yeah, and the other thing

(because this drives me NUTS)
"And yet all of this combined create music that was anarchist in nature."
Music is not anarchistic in nature.
Anarchy:
Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

Guess what CHORDS are. The closest form of music to anarchy is noise, and I still wouldn't call it 'anarchistic' because, well, it has a cohesive principle or purpose, it's just obscure.

I wish people would look words up before using them.

[tigereye]

78. just a thought on anarchy

"Very few people seem to understand anarchism, even though it is a very simple, straightforward idea. It can be
expressed basically as running our own lives instead of being pushed around."

http://anarchy1.tripod.com/elemental.htm

What people tend to think of now as "anarchy" is very different from the original principles. There was a great early anarchy society that published some early treatises here in the US, and one of their points was that anarchy is not chaos, or lack of coherence, or lack of cohesion or lack of principles.

For this reason, a lot of early punk music may fit, since it adheres to the above statement. At least that is how it looked to me and a lot of my highly lefty punk pals at the time. Although a certain amount of the music, while highly political, was also quite chaotic. Many folks taught themselves to play (or not) and bashed away happily regardless of their skill level with various poetic ranters.

Beauty will be convulsive or not at all." ~ André Breton

[SteppingRazor]

21. Narrowly speaking, they can be broken apart chronologically...

Punk occured in the mid to late 1970s and included bands like The Ramones in America and The Sex Pistols, The Clash and The Buzzcocks in England. A lot of people say British and American punk formed separately but simultaneously, but that's bullshit -- although some British punk bands were together before the Ramones toured that country, none of them adopted the punk sound until after that rock-history-changing event. Although British punk arguably became more important than its American counterpart, it was formed because of and informed by its American predecessor.

In the New York City scene where punk got its start and saw its heyday, a lot of bands that weren't necessarily punk were grouped into that category despite the fact that they did not conform with punk in either style (due primarily to use of synthesized sounds, which was anathema to early punk) or message (punk rock's message primarily consisted of alienation and nihilism). Such bands included the Talking Heads, for example. Once critics realized that these bands had little to do with punk, but even less to do with the bloated glam and prog rock that punk had been an answer to, they dubbed these bands "New Wave."

New Wave is a catch-all, much like the 1990s "alternative" or the 2000s more-common use of the term "indie rock" (which has even been used to, bizarrely enough, describe many bands on major labels). Chronologically, New Wave occured between punk (mid to late 1970s) and the hair-band era of the mid to late 1980s.

Taken as a whole, one can almost see a consistent bounce between minimalistic simplicity and bloated, complicated excess: From simple rock and roll to psychedelia to garage rock to glam and prog rock to punk and New Wave to glam and heavy metal to grunge, ad infinitum.

Hope that helps a little.

[jpak]

60. Where do you put Suicide???

Lot's o' synth and electronics in their noise and they were quite punk (and Ramones contemporaries in the mid-70's NY scene)

[SteppingRazor]

80. I'd almost call them proto-industrial or proto-goth...

while a lot of people blame Suicide for all the terrible 1980s synth-pop bands like Erasure, the only real followers of Suicide, in terms of keeping the instrumentation, the dark edge and the confrontational attitude, would be industrial-goth acts like Throbbing Gristle or Revolting Cocks.

So, while certainly associated with the punk scene, I'd say Suicide would be more accurately described as presaging the later arrival of industrial and goth genres, the way the MC5 or the Stooges blazed the trail for punk itself. If that makes any sense.

[Tikki]

24. Old School Hardcore Punk was defined as....

Leaderless, Lordless and Loud. 1975~circa1980 p.s. you may, also, add Fast and Furious in some cases...

New Wave was pop 1977~1987

The Grunge Emo crowd defined themselves as post-punk.


Tikki

[SteppingRazor]

27. Hardcore is an entirely different, and priamrily 1980s, subgenre though...

As some punk music went the way of New Wave, a dedicated following demanded that punk keep to its loud, offensive and generally simplistic roots (meant not in a necessarily bad way, but just in the fact that the songs are very simple, and in the DIY ethic of the bands). As a result, as some punk got prettier and poppier (see: The Clash, The Buzzcocks), other punks began playing faster, louder and even-more-aggro than the original punk music had been (see: Black Flag, The Germs)

[Tikki]

35. Yeah, that's right and I did see and hear...

the Germs, Black Flag, Ramones, Clash, DK's in the 70's....yes, yes and into the 80's... maybe they just they seemed HC to me at the time. heehee

Tikki

[tigereye]

57. it's so funny

because no one at the time played as fast as the Ramones, or so it seemed. It was amazing. And now they seem slow compared to some of the stuff you hear. It's very funny.

I suppose without The Ramones there would be....well, none of it! ;)

[khashka]

28. I'll give it a shot

Punk was a reaction to an artificial society and artificial music. Do you have to know how to sing to sing? Skill to play an instrument? (Not to say many didn't have those talents) It's rebellious. It started in England at a time when the economy was not so great. Kids realized there were no job except menial ones. That what mattered to them had no meaning to the larger culture. So they created their own culture, their own meaning - and that's what the music was. Angry and rebellious. You have no place for me? I'll create my own.

New Wave - in many ways a reaction to punk. Rather than proletarian and raw, it was very stylized. Lots of eletronica. In many ways it was just the bastard child of punk and pop. Sound good (like pop), political and trying to create a different sound (like punk). It died an ugly death

Post punk covers a lot of territory. Many different styles that were influenced by punk - goth, some metal, some garage. They aren't doing punk but the influence is there.

And bands use different styles. For example, early Siouxsie and the Banshees is punk, later goth (Siouxsie invented it ), later pop.

You can't always make easy distinctions. Artists use what works to express what the want to express.

Just expose your daughter to the music - she'll get it :)



Khash.

[Bridget Burke]

34. The Ramones & NY Dolls were "punk" before the Brits.

But Punk's antecedents include Velvet Underground. In fact, you could go farther back....

The phrase "punk rock" (from "punk", meaning worthless or disrespectful, often applied to a street hustler or a young person with a negative attitude cowards authority; also meaning a beginner or novice <1>) was originally applied to the untutored guitar-and-vocals-based rock and roll of United States bands of the mid-1960s such as The Standells, The Sonics, and The Seeds, bands that now are more often categorized as "garage rock".

The term was coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of ? and the Mysterians in the May 1971 issue of Creem magazine ¹, and it was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album Nuggets, critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive practitioners of 1960s psychedelia. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with avant-garde poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first album, Horses, released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-1970s punk rockers, so this suggests one path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock

But that gets pretty confusing. I agree that she needs to hear the music rather than worry about categories. (Unless she's doing this for a history class!)

Time to crank up the old turntable. Romeo Void? Nick Lowe? The Pretenders? Blondie?

[khashka]

44. It is very difficult to define

For example (one of yours) - early Blondie was punk, then New Wave, then pop. And yet is still immediately recognizable as Blondie.


You can make an historical argument, of course. Did punk start in New York or London?The only way is to listen to the music. Different threads weave together - when does it become something new? I truly can't answer that. (I have an X album that is both at the same time country and punk - which is it?)

The categories are in the end imeaningless. Does this music inspire you? Inform you? Disturb you? Or do you just enjoy it? You have to listen.


I couldn't consider Velvet Underground as punk - but nothing comes out of nothing. Niko did inspire. That delivery of lyrics probably set a million ideas in a million heads - where they could take what they had been given and what they could do with it.

Hell, even Johnny Rotten called Kate Bush "a fucking genius" - even though her music is so very differen from his.

Forget categories - LISTEN.

Khash.

[no name no slogan]

50. Rotten was influenced by Beefheart and Can

While Jones and Cook were fans of the Small Faces and 60s mod.

The Stooges (possibly the first American "Punk" band) were influenced by the Stones, 50s Rock and Roll, and even Jazz.

IMHO Punk is not so much a genre as it is an attitude or a way of doing things. For example, Wesley Willis was a stone-cold Punk, while Green Day are not.

:hide:

[Bridget Burke]

54. Yes, listening is #1...

Paradise Island (sometimes just "The Island") was Houston's longest-lasting punk/new wave/whatever club. I was usually at the bar with the other Old Hippie Farts, rather than dancing with the kids. (Better than sitting at home playing old LP's. Not that I stopped liking what I'd liked earlier--just trying to expand my horizons.)

But I saw some fine shows. The Cramps--The Mydolls (local girl group) opened for them. Snakefinger--pal of the Residents--was a favorite. And how do the Blasters fit in?

One of the last shows at Liberty Hall--a fine rock club of a slightly earlier era--featured the New York Dolls. Most of us went WTF? But--who did the Dolls represent? Their outfits were more Glam than Punk.

Discussing categories is best done in a room with a good sound system, CD's & a ton of old LP's. Plus enough beer, etc., to help in the exchange of ideas.

[billyskank]

46. I think punk has something to do with gobbing on your audience

:shrug:

:hi:

[jpgray]

49. That makes GG Allin the most definitive punk musician ever.

[ghostsofgiants]

52. Finally, I get to bust out some NN2S...

[tigereye]

58. well, Primate

I did get to see Patti Smith spit on the floor at her shows after waiting for years to see her. That's how I knew it was punk! ;)

[Left Is Write]

59. I thought it was punk because...

she didn't shave her armpits or wear a bra.

:crazy:

[ghostsofgiants]

67. Wouldn't that make her a filthy hippie?

[ghostsofgiants]

65. OMG PUNX!

:P

[Eric J in MN]

61. New Wave= any new band from 1979-1983 (nt)

nt

[no name no slogan]

66. Devo was New Wave

and they started in the early 70s. Same with Pere Ubu. :shrug:

[GirlinContempt]

68. Funny joke

[RetroLounge]

64. Gilda Radner was punk.

or was that Patty Smith?

RL

[Left Is Write]

69. Candy Slice...

[RetroLounge]

70. That was a GREAT skit!

I'm glad someone remembered it besides me!

:hi:

RL

[tuvor]

71. They're all just marketing terms, just like "rock 'n' roll".

There is no "defining" them, as far as I'm concerned.

Fuck pigeonholes.

[GirlinContempt]

73. Human beings categorize things

it's human nature

[HuskerDU]

75. Punk- Young folks in the 70's got sick to death of 'Rock Stars'

and their overhyped, underdelivered music. Rock operas were in vogue at the time, and rock stars were seen as lear-jet arrogant aholes, completely detatched from reality. So some bands decided to play fast, catchy RnR, bringing RnR back to its 50's and 60's roots. Basically, lets make RnR fun- forget all of this serious, pretentious blather. For me, it all started with the New York Dolls (very much influenced by the 'Nuggets' album of 60's garage rock mentioned previously upthread)

The Dolls (circa 73-75) didn't play textbook punk rock, but did provide a blueprint of generally up-tempo, back to basics RnR. In the very same scene (NYC) a short time later (74-75), Richard Hell was cultivating the soon to be punk image with his safety pins and ripped clothes. The punk rock sound came into shape in the form of bands like Ramones and Dead Boys. Loud, fast, simple, fun and furious. Other bands mentioned above were also on the punk scene, but their music never fit the punk rock stereotype.

I agree with the previous poster who said that Wesley Willis is punk and Green Day is not, however, that is only in reference to attitude and not sound. Green Day sounds like the Ramones 20-30 years later and I would call their music pop-punk. But, then the Ramones had a pop-punk sound too. (though their status as punk is unquestioned, the RnR High School Movie be damned!)

Punk rock music morphed into 'Hardcore' in the early 80's. True punk fans grew disillusioned with the supposed selling out of their initial heros and vowed to stay true to what they thought was the punk ethos. Thus they thought of themselves as 'hardcore' and not sell-outs. Hardcore also increased punk rock's tempo which was hard to imagine at the time.

So I suppose that 'new wave' was sort of the opposite of hardcore. For me, new wave had complex sounds and used a lot of keyboards and synthesizers, whereas punk/hardcore always stuck to guitar-drums-bass formula. (except for LA's Screamers circa '77- but they were and anomolly cuz they def had the punk rock sound despite having no guitars)

Post-punk refers to music played by hardcore bands, once they steered their sound away from the simple punk rock/hardcore sound. SST bands such as Meat Puppets, Minutemen, and Husker Du define this category for me. All 3 of these bands started around 1980 as hardcore punk outfits in both 'tude and sound. Just a couple of years later all 3 had branched far out from their original sound. To me, post-punk does not have a codefied sound in the way that new wave and punk do.

So again: Punk= Basic RnR played at very fast tempo with heavy doses of sneer and 'tude. (use the Ramones as basic template) New Wave= Keyboards, synths, and usually a heavy dose of mope. (New Order) Hardcore= Punk on steroids. (Minor Threat) Post-punk= Hardcore/punk bands whose sound developed beyond those restrictions. (Husker Du- That's me!)

Could be wrong about the post-punk, but that is what I have always considered it to be. Where things get really hairy is deciding what is punk based on things other than the music. That is this whole Green Day plays punk rock but are not punk issue. Basically, punks don't fly learjets.

[ghostsofgiants]

76. Haha, about Green Day...

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/green%20day%20fail%20to%20impress%20punk%20icon

[ET Awful]

81. So, using your criteria, the ultimate post punk would be

Bob Mould post Husker-Du :P

:bounce: