Anybody here ever read Ayn Rand books?

[rockymountaindem]

I've heard how awful they are, but I was wondering if it's anything I should spend time reading just to laugh. Are they so bad I won't even be able to mock them? Should I read them to know what the other side is thinking? What's your advice?

[jpgray]

1. Anthem is at least tolerably short and is an okayish dystopian tale

But the philosophy is all fucked up. Expect such from an immigrant against immigration and an adulteress against infidelity who believes individualism is everybody choosing to behave exactly as she thinks they should.

[democracyindanger]

2. They're all like two feet thick.

That'd be a whole lotta work for a few laughs...

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. I've read 'em all

Quite liberating for a parochial schooled female ... but ultimately, internally inconsistent - there was no objectivist justification for raising kids, but she tried.

She appeals to the talented, the brightest among us - and demonstrates contempt for the average person or worse yet, those who don't meet society's standards.

But there's something to be said for the recognition of the individual's capability to effect change - what her fiction couldn't accept were the limitations.

[swag]

4. Read "Two Girls Fat and Thin" by Mary Gaitskill,

a brilliant American novel from the 80s that featured as a subtheme a savage parody of Rand, her books, her cult of idiots.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684843129/sr=8-1/qid=1139896202/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7658194-2287930?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Highly recommended.

[Binka]

11. Great Book And Bad Behavior Is A Must Read!

I'm reading Saturday by McEwan...conflicted about the story...have you read it? I'd appreciate any comments as you have exemplary literary taste!

[swag]

22. Yes, enjoyed "Bad Behavior" also,

and her latest novel Veronica is quite good.

Haven't read Saturday but will look into it. Best to you.

[bridgit]

5. some of the fanciest drivel i ever seen in print, i think she thought...

she was being paid by the inch :shrug:

[EstimatedProphet]

6. I've read some of her philosophy, and critiques of her philosophy

Her philosophy is crap. Period. Much of it is based on simply misunderstanding concepts.

Here's a whole bunch of critical links.

[rockymountaindem]

7. Your link took me to Microsoft.com, twice

Never seen that before.

[EstimatedProphet]

8. I typed it wrong, sorry. Try it again.

[NMMNG]

9. I've read her fiction

Anthem is a quick read which is so-so. Avoid The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged because they are both long-winded advertisements for her cult-like "philosophy" of Objectivism.

We The Living is your best bet. It's not too long, and it actually is a fairly decent story, mainly because it was written before Rand's descent into the nonsense of Objectivism.

[applegrove]

10. I tried to read the Fountainhead. Like a bodice ripper for neocons.

Really - all about following ones testosterone. As opposed to ones humanity. You just let yourself be led by that part of you and it all works out ducky in the end. No growth in your hero - just more and more power. The end. :boring:

Actually - I never finished it.

[Kid OfThe Black Hole]

16. If there's no "growth in your hero"

are you sure it all works out ducky in the end?

;)

[tjdee]

21. I am, god that book sucked.

They're so right, there was absolutely zero growth in the character. It was like "he's so great and no one realizes how great he is." And the book ends.

As I've said many times here, when I was done reading that book I threw it across the room.

[Kid OfThe Black Hole]

33. sorry, I was just making a lame joke lol

I agree with you pretty much all of Rands books are unreadable lol

[applegrove]

37. Like I said - the more and more powerful hero - didn't stop to learn

a thing - except how to take more. Of course if there is no growth in our hero - it is a tragedy. A Walking one. The definition of tragedy is no growth in a character - at least for the people around the "hero". Especially if the hero were to find himself in control of the federal reserve or the WH, or some such thing. The number of people affected by the narcissism is huge.

Like I said - I could not finish.

I like to think he ended up in a used car lot as a salesman.

[Taxloss]

12. I read "Atlas Shrugged". The horror, the horror.

It makes "Mein Kampf" look as fast-paced and tautly written as a Michael Crichton thriller.

It's just turgid rubbish, it took two bloody weeks to get through, and I can tell you that two weeks inside Rand's perverted little antisocial Electra-complex fantasy world is too much to bear. The situation is ludicrous to the point of absurdity, the dialogue is so workmanlike it would flunk a Turing test and the characterisation is dim to say the least. There's a plot, of sorts, but it's far more entertaining to gnaw of the boneheaded internal political inconsistencies. So ... the elite demonstrate the justice of Rand's philosophy of individualism in a ... collective manner? Sort of like going on strike? Did they arrange this at the Amalgamated Union of Plutocrats, Moguls and Robber-Barons? Go straight to the back of the philosophy class, Rand, D minus.

I strongly suspect that Freeper types who claim to be Rand fans have simply heard that she is the antithesis to socialism and haven't actually bothered to read or try to understand any of her books.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

18. lol, you know, she was originally going to call it 'The Strike' but her

Husband supposedly came up with Atlas Shrugged, which, in my oopinion, is a FAR better title, lol.

[Taxloss]

19. It IS a better title.

I reckon there is a fun little book to be written about how people came upon the titles of things. Like that wonderful story about Thackeray suddenly hitting on the name "Vanity Fair" for his book and being so overjoyed he leapt out of bed and ran around the room shouting and cheering.

Or the story that Barbara Castle was going to call her seminal report something like "Towards Reform of British Industrial Relations", when her husband suggested that "In Place of Strife" was snappier.

[Lefergus70]

13. Fountainhead made my blood boil.

I read Fountainhead years ago and was very much put off by the author's extreme-rightwing values. I recall that the main character was a sullen young architect who at the end burns down a social-housing project that he had designed, apparently to purge his guilt feelings for having "sold out" to leftwing ideas. Rand's characters are rather chilling: ambitious, unsentimental and cold as ice. When the young architect gets horny he rapes a female acquaintance, and, under the author's direction, she actually loves it.

[applegrove]

46. Thanks for telling me the end. I never made it that far.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

49. no offense

but did you actually read the book? He dynamites the housing project because his only demand was that the project be built exactly as he designed. He wanted no money or fame for, merely the simple satisfaction of watching yet another one of his obivously perfectly engineered structures being constructed and brought into reality. It was the ONLY demand he made for his work, he let Keatings take all the credit because the credit was meaningless to him.

The way Roark had designed the housing project for the poor the structures would be accomadating, yet humble, and easily maintained. The building Roark designed was built for the task of housing the poor to the extent to require the lowest possible fincancial sacrafice to the taxpayer. Roark got pissed because the modifications made to his structure would have increased the cost living unit dramatically raising the construction and upkeep price of the building requiring more tax dollars from the more able. Because the single demand that Roark made wasn't met he blew the damn thing up. His work wasn't a gift, he wasn't giving his design to the poor, he believed there need for housing didn't entitle them to any of his time or mental capacity. You don't even need to look too deep, he addresses that and more in his testimony in his second trial.

Secondly, the relationship between Roark and Dominque is a lot more complicated that you give credit for. I personally found Rand's views on rational and objective loving relationships to be really fucked up to say the least. Even in Atlas Shrugged which was extremely redundant when it came to Dagny's relationships between Francisco, Reardan, and Galt still were really messed up.

[Rhiannon12866]

14. I read them all when I was in high school.

I read The Fountainhead more than once, but could never get through Atlas Shrugged, since the last third of it, and it's a mother of a book, is just diatribe. I remember that my uncle approved of my reading her books, but was quite upset when I read Walden II, which I had to read for school. You've got to really be motivated to read either of these books, or any of the essays, since the novels are interminable and you obviously wouldn't enjoy the essays. Maybe I should take a second look at them, since all I can remember are vague recollections of the characters...:shrug:

[LostinVA]

15. Under duress in college

Read People magazine instead. Seriously.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

17. Iread Atlas Shrugged, and I really LIKED it

Even if you don't agree with the elitest concepts it throws forth (which I admit, I agreed with several), It still has a pretty good plot in my opinion. I've also heard about how horrible they were, but my advice is read them, and decide for yourself, because, as great a place this is, there ARE biases. So, there's my opinion. Just pick a copy up at Half Price books or something and get it for 4 dollars and see what you think.

EDIT* O, and feel free to flame away. I got in a 200+ post flame thread (although, most of those were litterally "troll somewhere else you fuckin freeper!") arguing about capitalism and Ayn Rand, so very little can phase me now.

[JCMach1]

20. I did, until I found out the people

who read them

[JitterbugPerfume]

23. I read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged years ago

and they are complete crap, a waste of time

[6000eliot]

24. Warmed over Neitzsche

And not very good, at that.

[GirlinContempt]

25. I won't tell you not to read them,

though she makes me scream. Give it a shot. I doubt it'll damage you, you might take something from it, and if you get in a ways and decide it's useless you can always stop reading it.

I do, however, hate her stuff, and am so glad it rarely sells at the bookstore. :P

[swag]

28. It's hilariously juvenile sophistry couched in bodice-ripping plots.

I bet the best day in Nathaniel Branden's life was when he grew the balls to tell that hideous monster he wasn't going to fuck her any more.

[GirlinContempt]

30. Absolutely agree

Didn't she fire her publisher or something because his wife was a Christian?
Loooooooney.

Have you read any of her (apparently) non-fiction?

[swag]

31. It's unbearable.

Pseudo-philosophy.

Garbage.

[Montauk6]

26. "Mozart Was A Red" is a hilarious spoof of the Randroids

It was a one-act sendup by libertarian icon and former Rand hanger-on Murray Rothbard. Here's a taste:

CARSON (turning to KEITH): Keith, would you like a cigarette? Here, this is a particularly rational brand.

KEITH (a bit bemused): "Rational...?" (A slight pause) Oh, I'm sorry, thank you. I don't smoke.

(Exclamations of disapproval from JONATHAN and GRETA.)

GRETA (lashing out): You don't smoke! Why not?

KEITH (taken back): Well, uh... because I don't like to.

CARSON (in scarcely-controlled fury): You don't like to! You permit your mere subjective whims, your feelings (this word said with utmost contempt) to stand in the way of reason and reality?

KEITH (sweating again): But surely, Miss Sand, what other possible grounds can you have for smoking than simply liking it?

(Expressions of fury, dismay from GRETA, JONATHAN, and CARSON, "Oh!", "Ah!", etc.)

The spoof in its entirety can be found here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/mozart.html

[DBoon]

39. I like the "floating head of Ayn Rand"

http://www.saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com/ayn_rand/

[genie_weenie]

27. She confuses me (minor AS spoiler)

First, I hate the whole Randian Cult that defends her philosophy as though it is the revealed word. And the rejoinder that if you don't agree with her philosophy you don't understand it. Pure Bullshit. But, her own personal bullshit was unbelievable, like cheating on her husband for years with this guy 20 years younger than her and when he ended the affair, she destroys and excommunicates him.

**Atlas Shrugged Spoiler**
She of course justified her licentious behavior in Atlas Shrugged when Dagny dumps Hank Readon (who has been searching for her for months after Dagny's plane had crashed) for John Galt, because Dagny and Galt are the greatest people to ever live and therefore are destined to come together... You might as well say if a man or woman meets another they are more attracted to dump the old mate and fornicate to your heart's desire with the new one, until a better model comes along. (Hey didn't Brad Pitt just do this? Maybe there's something to this as long as it's restricted for men only...)

But, I thought her philosophy was supposed to be Individual good, government bad. Allow the individual to flower. However, she it also *seems* to excuse the behavior of the Elite and allow them to abuse the humans that are beneath them due to the Elite's status as semi-deities.

I don't know, but I don't think you'll be able to read them too laugh, they are just to long and arrogant for a light read.

[ComerPerro]

29. Its very instructive. It will teach you exactly where conservatives

and libertarians get their self-satisfied, arrogant outlook, as well as give you insight as to where their fucked up ideas (most of which are rooted in lies and bullshit) come from.

[hunter]

32. Ughhhh. Very toxic.

Ayn Rand is a burned black heart on ice.

I find the strong undercurrents of self-loathing flowing throughout Ayn Rand's works to be very distressing. She's what you'd get if some Nazi chemist put a broken Russian Romanticist and a pile of coal in a pressure cooker and rendered it down to a bitter tar. Mix that with gravel and you can pave over paradise and put up a parking lot.

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan attended Rand's funeral which I find highly distressing.

I'd much rather hang out with Auntie Mame, who always said, "Live, live, live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!"

[Deja Q]

34. I know people who think they're what the bible OUGHT to be...

:scared:

Yes. Try to figure out their point of view.

And then figure out the lunatics who believe it blindly.

And remember to treat them the way they treat you, because while they spout off how much better their narrow-minded vision is, in the real world they'll expect more of a free ride than anyone else because they think they are better.

[hunter]

43. Ayn Rand vs. HypnoToad. Hypnotoad wins!

"... in the real world they'll expect more of a free ride than anyone else because they think they are better.

That's exactly it.

You want to see a real world Ayn Rand Hero? Look at George W. Bush.

A real world Ayn Rand hero is an asshole, even more so than the asshole heros of her books.

[Ron Green]

35. Once you turn 21, you're too old

for Ayn Rand's intoxicating brand of horseshit.

[mitchum]

42. Absolutely! I NEVER mock a teenager for reading her work...

but after that, I am MERCILESS

[Ron Green]

45. I would expect any thoughtful young person to go through a phase

of being enamored with the purity of these libertarian ideas. It's part of defining oneself, I think, to think that one can stand alone and strong in the market place. But as the reality of life teaches the deeper truths of interdependency, Rand's stuff has to be supplanted by better ideas.

[NashVegas]

36. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged - And I Enjoyed Them

for the most part.

And before anyone rips me, I enjoy Lord of the Rings, too, and have no desire to live in Bag End or Rivendell.

You should read them to get an idea of how much of Rand's "philosophy" is really just wishful thinking, to get an idea of to what extent her followers at the Rand Institute and elsewhere are mistaking Rand's fantasy world for reality, and to see some of the very good points she does make about societal attitudes and how, sometimes, very wrong-headed said attitudes are.

[tigereye]

38. yes, several of them

it's kind of a phase people go through. :)

Read them, think about them, and eventually, as the world comes more into focus, you can see them for what they are. There was one short novel that actually was rather throught provoking, I can't remember the title.

[hopein08]

40. I read "We The Living" and really liked it...a lot! And then...

I came here and started to worry about myself...I hadn't known how much she was held up by the other side! But I don't think there's anything wrong with me...

Anyway, I'm sticking to my story. "We The Living" is a very, very good story...I could not put it down. But it may be harder for you since you know that she is held up by the other side.

I tried "Atlas Shrugged" and it was awful. I think I read 200 pages and quit.

[distantearlywarning]

44. We the Living is her best book

In my opinion. It was written back in the days when what she thought about made sense and before she went completely off the deep end. Plus, it's an eye-opener about what it was actually like to live in Communist Russia.

[NYdemocrat089]

47. I just finished "We the Living" for English and I liked it.

I read "Anthem" too.

[LanternWaste]

41. here's my opinion

I read "Atlas Shrugged" about seven or eight years ago and here's my opinion--

As a philosophy, she may or may have a point. I've heard arguments both pro and con regarding her positions, some good and others bad. Bottom line with this aspects though is I disagree with libertarianism, what it derived from and it's current crop of trendy progenies.

As literature-- it's simply not good. She's pendantic, overlong apologetics for her major characters and her abnormal sentence structure makes Joseph Conrad read like a Dr. Suess book. She appears to have a severe problem knowing when exposition is a good thing and when it is not.

Bottom lime- reading it for it's own sake is a waste of time if you dig good literature. If you're reading it for the philosophy behind it, it may answer your questions, but it'll also asnwer questions that are irrelevant and just damned superfluous.

And a word of advice-- if you want a peek into the mind of the "Others", I'd suggest William F. Buckley-- I disagree with the guy more often than not, but I believe he truly is a wordsmith and a good author (possibly out of date for the Neocons though, as he doesn't call anyone names...)

[mitchum]

48. I agree with you about the literary qualities of both Rand and Buckley...

Rand has a tin ear, while Buckley has graceful eloquence (and wit)

[cemaphonic]

50. Read [i]Sewer, Gas and Electric[/i] by Matt Ruff instead

Among other things, it gives a concise summary of Atlas Shrugged, debates the pros, cons, inconsistencies, and hypocrisy of Rand's philosophy. Even better, Rand herself appears in the book as a holographic simulacrum that is forced to endure being lectured by, and being totally dependent on a bunch of liberals.

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

51. a somewhat interesting read.

If you read ANY book read it with an open mind. If you open a book, any book with any preconceived notions of any book being a bible replacement or mindless stupidity you will get nothing from it. You will only find what you are looking for, nothing else. If you read any of her works looking for the easily mockable absurdities you will find them, but you will miss the important tidbits of wisdom and vice versa. Be warned, there is a 50% chance you will be an asshole for at least 2 weeks after completing either novel.

Personally once I recovered from my few weeks of assholeishness I quickly began discarding a lot of her principles upon the realization that I had merely accepted her ideas without truly assesing them for myself. The ones I have kept though have been priceless to me and have led to some major successes in my life.

and remeber, If you read them and begin to find entire chapters to be redundant, it's because they are...