School Pig Castration Sparks Protests

[proud2BlibKansan]

School Pig Castration Sparks Protests

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

ROSAMOND, Calif. - A teacher who castrated a live pig in front of her high school class is the target of protests by animal rights activists throughout the country.

The protests began after People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals posted information about the incident at Rosamond High School on its Web site last month. The posting does not say when the castration occurred.

"We're concerned not only because animals suffer during these routine castrations but also because of the message it sends to students who are still forming opinions about treatment of animals in our society," said Stephanie Bell, a PETA cruelty case worker.

Rod Van Norman, superintendent of the Southern Kern Unified School District school in the Mojave Desert about 70 miles north of Los Angeles, said animal castrations often occur in agriculture classes and are an important skill for students to learn.

"I don't know why they're picking on a little school district," he said.

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=news&referrer=welcome&id=20060222/43fbefd0_3421_1334520060222716604587

[JohnLocke]

1. It was under anesthesia, right? (nt)

[Catch22Dem]

2. Certainly not in my experience, but I've never worked with pigs

only cattle.

[benburch]

3. Of course not.

Livestock are never given anesthesia for this procedure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Read the article

"Charles Parker, assistant state Future Farmers of America adviser at the California Department of Education, said anesthesia is not normally used during pig castrations, which are done to calm male animals, prevent them from breeding and improve meat quality."

[LeftyMom]

6. "improve meat quality"

I am once again soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo very glad to be vegan.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Makes you wonder just how BAD the meat is

if the animal is NOT castrated. :puke:

[LeftyMom]

8. Castration causes them to gain weight faster

In cows it's also done to change the way fat is distributed and encourage marbling in the muscle tissues.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

9. oh yea. perfectly exceptable when your doing it so they get fatter

just fucking fine. :grr::nuke:

[LeftyMom]

13. Well that's what happens when living beings become commodities

If they go about the business of turning corn into meat a bit faster if you cut thier nuts off, well then you cut thier nuts off. If there's no economic reason to do it with pain control, then you do it without pain control. They're not living, feeling animals who'd prefer to keep thier balls and not die, they're just meat machines.

:argh:

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

22. mmm sweet sweet capitalism

:evilfrown:


Commodify this bitches!

[entanglement]

52. ...

O8) :loveya:

/fellow vegetarian

[LeftyMom]

53. Well then

get the to the veg group! :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=231

[Kali]

81. Actually its mostly done for behavioral reasons

any improvement in weight is more a side effect of them not spending so much energy acting like, well, bulls. There are some flavor differences and fat distribution changes as well, but primarily it is behavior related)

Cows (heifers) are rarely spayed, but again it would be more to avoid reproductive behavior.

The easiest way to increase weight gain is with low level antibiotics and hormone implants. A PRACTICE THAT IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, UNWANTED BY THE MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS AND SHOULD NOT BE DONE, IMO. (although I believe the science behind it is sound and that it isn't particularly "unsafe" - just more profits to the big pharm cos.)

[ThomCat]

60. I agree

I can't imagine the callousness it takes to do this without even minimal regard for how the animal feels.

I am so glad I am a Vegan, and I can't believe more people don't see the wisdom of at least being Vegetarians.

[Mnemosyne]

44. And cutting their nuts off without anesthesia calms them how? Owww!! n/t

[TroubleMan]

5. And this little piggy went "Wee, wee, wee!!!" all the way home.

OUCH!!!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. I grew up on a farm. This is a life skills class for farm kids

Try sticking your arm up a cow to rope the front hoofs of a calf who's having trouble.

:P

[Maddy McCall]

12. Gotta do whatcha gotta do.

People who have never lived on farms just can't understand...

How about sticking your arm up to the elbow into a cow's vagina so that you can artificially inseminate her. :D

[Briarius]

33. People who have never lived on farms just can't understand...

I agree 100%

[Viva_La_Revolution]

40. to birth a cow your arm goes up to the shoulder...

at least it does when you're 12 years old. I got picked for being the smallest. :)

[sasquatch]

14. The last black eye I ever got was from trying to castrate a bull calf

When I was 13 years old, we used those rubberband things after that.

[UCLA02]

91. Yeah, whatever happened to the rubber band thing?

nt.

[cynatnite]

41. My Dad told me when he was a kid...

he and his brothers would do that. Sometimes they'd swing the calves from a two by four in the barn if it wasn't breathing.

[havocmom]

71. Yep, it's that time again

must be why it's snowing.

[Maddy McCall]

11. As brutal as it sounds, it has forever been a part of animal husbandry...

and it SHOULD be taught in agriculture-centered classes.

This is ridiculous that PETA has nothing better to do than this.

[LeftyMom]

15. They work on a lot of different issues

I can't see why animal cruelty in schools isn't something they would act on. It's right up thier alley, really. :)

[Maddy McCall]

18. I agree that it's up their alley.

But I stand with the ag teacher...It has to be taught to kids who will work in the husbandry area of agriculture. Not just with pigs, but with goats, sheep, cattle, and horses.

[LeftyMom]

20. Why should that be taught in high scools?

I don't really see why my tax dollars going to teach high school kids how to cut the nuts off of pigs.

[Maddy McCall]

24. So that public school students can have ham sandwiches for lunch.

:shrug:

Because uncastrated ham taste terrible.

There are probably a lot of things being taught in public schools with which you don't agree, but these teachers have the right to teach it, because it is more than likely a vocation that many kids in that area will go into, and they have just as much right to learn how to de-nut animals as future engineers have to learn physics.

[LeftyMom]

26. Unsurprisingly,

you lost me at ham sandwiches.

There is no inherent human right to abuse and exploit animals. Let's prepare them for jobs that don't cost sentient animals thier lives and ruin human health for miles around (as pig farming does.)

[Maddy McCall]

29. You see it from a vegan's viewpoint, I see it from an omnivore's.

If you live near that ag school, complain to your congressfolk that your money is paying for the denutting of animals.

[havocmom]

72. Those who live near an ag school would probably prefer animals

who have been cut. The uncut ones tend to jump fences and get surly

Hope you took vitamins Maddy, gonna be a tough haul trying to 'splain the facts of animal husbandry life to the slickers ;)

[Castilleja]

55. It is taught in schools because of the FFA program

that is available in many schools. Kids raise one or more animals as a project for scholarship money (hopefully), and castration is part of it when dealing with large male livestock. My daughter saw this being done at school this year, and got queasy seeing it, which is natural when you hear her describe what they did. I would rather they do it in a quicker and more painless way than what she describes. But it is a necessary part of the animal husbandry program.

[Mnemosyne]

45. I grew up between two farms Maddy and have to agree, but

damn. I worked on both. Some things just seemed so heartless and cold to me. Maybe I was too sensitive or too young. :shrug:

I was much better helping with the haying and the milking, etc.

[Dave Reynolds]

19. One person's animal cruelty

is another person's agricultural method.

I somehow doubt either side will budge in viewpoint, as we are all rather stubborn mammals.

[LeftyMom]

23. If I did that to a dog, I'd go to jail

Pigs are smarter animals than dogs. I fail to see how cutting the nuts off of an animal without even rudimentary pain control isn't animal cruelty.

[Maddy McCall]

25. Last I heard, we don't celebrate holidays with a big fat Shepherd...

as the table centerpiece.

I dock my pups' tails and remove their dew claws. No one's come to arrest me yet.

[LeftyMom]

30. Some countries do.

Needless to say, the cruelty involved is horrific.

In some countries you could be arrested for tail docking, ear croppping and other cosmetic modificatiosn to dogs. I hope our cruelty laws catch up some day, because it's a cruel and un-needed practice.

[Maddy McCall]

32. Duh. But I'm not in some countries.

I'm in the US, where tail docking, ear cropping, and dew claw removal are still perfectly legal.

It will never be illegal here. Thank goodness.

Ever seen an adult dog rip his dew claw off while jumping through a fence? It's really gruesome.

[LeftyMom]

37. We've got a long way to go in animal cruelty laws

but I believe we'll get there eventually.

[Dave Reynolds]

27. I don't know if there are laws pertaining to neutering dogs or not.

The major difference to me is that a dog is a companion animal, and the farm animal is a commodity or investment. We value animals in different ways. I live on a dairy farm, and while the farmer depends on making money from his livestock, the vet is there at least once a week to take care of any ailing animal. When the heifers give birth, the males are castrated and kept until they can be auctioned off.

And yes, I can see where you may have problems with that. I, however, am not as good a person and therefore make a distinction between pets and livestock.

[Maddy McCall]

31. I didn't know that you are a dairy farmer!

I swear, one day I'm going to write a book on sale-barn culture. It's unlike any other place on earth.

:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

35. I'm not, I rent the old farmhouse.

But living there, I see how the operation works. Hell, I drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of meat, so I can never fault the source for how things work. And, any time someone buys Edy's ice cream, they support my landlord.

I spend some time in the milking parlor on the weekend helping out. And for a former city boy, it is indeed a little bit of culture shock.

[Maddy McCall]

36. Have you ever gone to an auction?

If you haven't, YOU HAVE TO GO. But be forewarned--buy you some overalls and a straw hat and some workboots before you go. Older-generation cattlemen frown on city-folk and wimmen entering their one last refuge. :D

:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

38. I have not,

but my wife grew up on a dairy operation. There is an auction barn about 4 miles from the house, someday we need to tag along with the farmer when he goes.

I can blend pretty good now, but the crap on my pants is usually from the horses. :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

39. Yes, you have to tag along.

I am teaching on Tuesdays now, and that's sale day, so I'm missing my visits to the sale barn. I might feign an illness soon so that I can take a day off and go--I'm having withdrawals! :D I can't even begin to describe it to you...

I was treated with great suspicion when I first visited, but now I'm just one of the regulars, and everyone is very welcoming to me.

You have to go. You won't regret it.

:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

16. Well, it gets their name out there,

so it's all good for them. Arouse the base and all that, get the donations rolling in.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. uh, no

how about letting kids learn this on a farm somewhere, not in school.

I'm sorry, but if my kid came home from school and told me that his teacher had castrated an animal in front of him I'd want to march out to the school and castrate the teacher and the principal who allowed it.

Castrating a live animal in school is pretty sick. I don't care if it was an agriculture class.

[Maddy McCall]

34. If you allowed your child to sign up for an animal husbandry class...

you would have to expect that stuff like this will be taught.

[fknobbit]

46. Yup

It ain't creationism you learn a lot about strengthening the herd and survival of the fittest. Nutting is a small but necessary part of animal husbandry/ Ag.

[Common Sense Party]

48. Are they gonna bitch about me fixing my cat, next? n/t

[LeftyMom]

50. Do you plan on doing it without pain meds in front of school kids?

:wtf:

[Common Sense Party]

51. No, it was done long ago. I just think there are better things for

them to complain about.

[LeftyMom]

54. PETA is a pretty big organization

and there are plenty of other AR groups out there working on other priorities, too. As a result they can and do take on a lot of different issues, particularly with the emailed action alerts (I think that's how this case was dealt with.)

[Kali]

64. No they are going to try to make you not own your cat

ownership of animals is the same as human slavery. The agenda is not good husbandry or humane treatment, the goal is equal legal rights for non-human animals.

[LeftyMom]

69. That's simply not the case

Many of us don't like the idea of "ownership" and prefer to think of the human-animal relationship as more symbiotic than subsurvient, but most of the AR types I know have companion animals.

[Lorien]

78. Yep. I'm an "AR type" and I have three of them.

All fixed, and spaying and neutering your pets is something peta and I agree on. We also agree that doing so without anesthesia is BARBARIC.

[fknobbit]

17. My God how times have changed

When I went to a rural Texas school boys curriculum included ag and shop. We went on field trips and nutted multifarious fellow creatures by the hundreds. Girls, on the other hand, Took Home economics and learned about Texas Community property laws, a different kind of neutering entirely, but thats another story.:hide:

[Maddy McCall]

21. Woman here.

When I was a kid, I helped my dad castrate hogs. I wasn't traumatized by it. The ham, on the other hand, was delicious.

[fknobbit]

42. Did you cure it yourself

Home smokehouse was always so much better. I guess it's a lost art now.

[Maddy McCall]

43. Yes, my dad did.

You just can't buy ham like home-raised ham.

There are still several smokehouses around here...use the old method and charge people to cure their meet for them.

[datsafact]

61. I agree.....

:thumbsup:

[Kali]

47. 2 quick points

First most animals aren't as sensitive in the genitals as humans, I mean just watch a bull run through brush! - and when done when young, by skilled handlers, quickly there is much less trauma than there would be using anesthetics. I do 80 or so calves yearly. Baby calves are more traumatized by the momentary restraint than the swift cut.


Second it is done for behavioral reasons - SAME as pets - if you have a bunch of intact males around they will be constantly fighting - damaging themselves and everything around them.


As for teaching this (to AG STUDENTS, no less) - there's a lot of PETA's agenda in the school I sure wouldn't mind being removed.

[LeftyMom]

49. PETA's agenda in schools?

Please tell me where that's an issue. If there's a school someplace where no dissections go on, children are taught to care for animals without exploiting them and all the cafeteria food's vegan, I sure haven't heard about it. Well, other than the homeschool here are Casa de Lefty, but our enrollment is pretty small. ;)

[pokerfan]

56. I agree with Kali

I grew up on a farm and was a member of FFA. It didn't take though and I went on to engineering school.

I assume that most everyone has read the story about the gentleman who lost a testicle while masturbating against a belt drive in a machine shop, If not, it's here:
http://www.snopes.com/risque/penile/scrotum.htm

Quoting the doctor who treated the man:
Every man who questions me imagines the initial pain to have been intense, but should realize that once the testis had been ripped out (gasp!) there was not the continuing discomfort one would experience from a first-class kick in the nuts!

Someone mentioned pigs being smarter than dogs. I raised swine for show and I will agree that they are pretty damned smart, easily the smartest animal we eat in this culture. But I don't know about them being smarter than dogs. It's difficult to compare intelligence across species. Cats are easily the equal of dogs, but dogs are much more social (pack hunters as opposed to solitary hunters).

Anyway, if you do eat meat, swine raised to show weight (220 pounds) simply must be experienced at least once in your life. Going beyond show weight just adds fat. I have never seen such lean cuts of pork such as we got from my show animals.

Which is probably why I seldom buy bacon anymore. It's just digusting.

[flvegan]

58. I remember when Bubba the Love Sponge did this LIVE on the radio

as a stunt here in Tampa. Took a feral pig and castrated him (via a "hunter that knew what he was doing") live on the radio before killing him. That pig screamed and screamed and screamed. Therefore, bollocks on your first statement about feeling pain. If you think I'm full of it, head to Google and have at it.

Secondly, I don't believe this pig was a pet, nor was it the standard dog/cat neuter, seeing as how they don't simply have a vet come out and whack the testes off. If they did, they'd not be practicing long.

AG students or shock jocks, it's no different. It's cruelty, and defending it is bullshit.

[Kali]

59. on the radio?

so you could tell exactly what and when the squealing was all about?
feral (wild) animal - not used to handling - an animal that I believe vocalizes quite a bit anyway (although I confess I am not that familiar with them, my experience is pretty much limited to range cattle)

hmmm :eyes:

While that stunt is utterly tasteless in my opinion it probably did more good for animal rights than harm - I can just imagine the sort of attention it would generate. (I hadn't heard of it, but then I don't listen to crap radio)

Pain will always be in the mind of the beholder, and subject to varying circumstances - that is, threshholds change as well. What "hurts" one person may not faze the next person. What hurts in one situation may not even be noticed in another.

Projecting what you IMAGINE the procedure would feel like to YOU, is just not what the reality of my pretty damn vast experience, at least with calves, shows me.


OH! On your advice I googled, and this interesting bit was in the article published by the Saint Petersburg Times:

"While the hog was killed, Clem played recorded pig-squeals that some outraged listeners initially believed came from the tortured pig itself."

http://www.sptimes.net/2002/02/23/TampaBay/Trial_pits_cruelty_vs.shtml



Guess I was right - hard to tell WHAT is going on when you are listening over the radio.

[flvegan]

65. It would be hard to tell

if one hadn't already perused the court file. I read witness testimony. Did you? Didn't think so.

The animal suffered, but...who cares, right?

[Kali]

67. I care about accuracy and the truth, do you?

You claimed to hear the animal scream and scream and scream. It was a recording.

You claim it suffered, the court didn't seem to agree. Do I care if it did suffer? Perhaps. As I said the whole incident was tasteless and unpalatable to me. However, cruelty hasn't been proven, so my caring about suffering is irrelevant at this point.

I spent way too much time perusing this case, but if you have a link to the actual cort file, I would read it.

[flvegan]

68. Get thine

ass to the courthouse. Not everything is of public record. I did.

Sorry that cruelty has to be "proven" to exist. Lots of "cruelty" that I guess doesn't exist these days because a judge hasn't deemed it so.

I heard the incident on the radio. I heard the actual recording later.

You have no idea. Deal with it. BTW, the Court disagreed because this type of thing happens quite a bit. Sort of a cruelty status quo. If I expected more, most animal industry would be bankrupt.

But hey, "perhaps" you care if an animal suffered.

Perhaps.

See ya.

[Kali]

73. a bit difficult to get to Florida for me

so if you can't back up your claim, I guess we just have to go by the reported results.

Does a judge have to rule to prove cruelty exists to me? Not always, but in this case, that YOU brought up and that YOU made claims for and that YOU suggested I google, and that YOU now can't provide the next stage of evidence that YOU claim proves YOUR contention...well, YEAH I guess.

So far you picked an extreme example of supposed cruelty (and pretty much irrelevant to the topic of castration of domestic animal in general), made a "witness" claim that would appear to be debunked, then you made another claim of proof that you can't provide, meanwhile I have castrated hundreds of calves in my life and have a bit of an idea about how cruel or not it is, I read all I could find in a couple of hours (!!!) on the incident YOU chose to illustrate cruelty including what I assume is a mainstream newspaper report that said 1)not a judge, but a JURY acquitted, and 2) that your "ear" witnessing was wrong. Gotta stay with my original opinion. Tastless, probably stressful but not particularly cruel to the pig. (for listeners - another matter)

I have no idea? I have an idea. When you chose to cite something as proof of your point of view, make sure it actually backs your point of view. (along with the usual need to be factual, fairly unbiased, preferably scientific etc etc)

ta!

[Maddy McCall]

62. We have feral pigs all over the place here.

A doctor here traps them and nuts them. He fattens them and then slaughters them. I've had a ham from his pigs. You can't imagine how delicious it was--unless your a vegan.

I've SEEN nutting done with feral pigs. The squealing you heard is from the hog being restrained. The young hog is lifted by its rear legs by one man (very strong man, usually :) ) while another man takes the snippers and makes quick work of the testicles...it's all over in about 30 seconds, if that long, and the snippers are made to cauterize the vessels when the nuts are cut, so that there is minimal, if any, bleeding.

I think the way you characterized FFA kids is unfair. I know LOTS of adults who as kids participated in 4H and FFA, and none have used their knowledge for averse reasons, such as setting up a nutting booth in front of WalMart to shock the kiddies. Many have gone on to be successful dairy farmers (one woman I know runs a dairy by herself with a few hired hands) and cattle farmers (again, a woman I know handles her whole operation with one hired hand) and even emergency workers (many former FFA members from my high-school are now firefighters, police, deputies, EMTs).

By the way, by definition, a FERAL pig cannot be a pet--almost without exception, they are wild as hell and will even kill dogs or other domestic animals they encounter. FERAL pigs are hunted and trapped here to control the population, because they tear up root crops and will destroy a young forest in no time. Hit google yourself--and, as for that radio show, I think that this old adage applies: trust half of what you see and none of what you hear.

[flvegan]

66. First of all

check the screen name, k?

I didn't say anything about FFA, did I? Don't project.

I don't define an animal's value by if he or she can be a pet. I define suffering the same across the spectrum. As I stated to another poster, I read the court file. You should do the same in this case BEFORE posting that something different was heard.

[Maddy McCall]

70. And you should not use anecdotes to prove your point.

[JVS]

57. Castrating animal for education: good, for pep-rally: bad.

That's my stance and I'm sticking to it

[HEyHEY]

63. No doubt eh? This is just like that whole Great Horned Owl thing

I don't care what Peta says, I stand by my actions.

[NMMNG]

74. "I don't know why they're picking on a little school district,"

Maybe because that school district is cutting off animals' body parts without anesthesia for no good reason?

Maybe Mr. Van Norman would like to undergo his next surgical procedure without anesthesia just to see what it feels like.

[LeftyMom]

75. .

:yourock:

[CottonBear]

76. All male meat and dairy livestock are routinely and quickly castrated.

I asisted a vet with two colt castrations. Sedation and tranquelization as well as a giant syringe of lidocaine (injected into the scrotum) was used for the colts. We also twitched the colts with a walnut handle twitch just in case. These were very large (750 pound) highly bred (expensive, warmblood) future show horses. You don't need very many stallions. Stallions can be very dangerous. Not all are but any of them can be at any time. I know of a woman who had her arm bitten off by an angry Thoroughbred stallion. I am very careful around the 2 stallions at the farm where I keep my filly.

That said, pig, goat, sheep and cattle castration is quick and the special tool snips and cauterizes. The rubber band method is also used.
It is a fact of livestock ranching.

[AlienGirl]

77. Sedation and Lidocaine are not used for meat animals

They would be too expensive and time-consuming.

Tucker

[CottonBear]

79. I realize that. I was just comparing horses to other livestock.

Horses are much, much bigger and stronger and way more dangerous at both ends (hooves and teeth). The vet that I assisted once had a knee dislocated while gelding a horse. (The horse kicked him but he still had to finisht he surgery with his kneecap totally diclocated. Ouch!)

Actaully, lidocaine would be quick to use but might too expensive for large numbers of livestock.

[Kali]

80. and you are talking about the extra time and stress of having to do

extra procedures on animals that aren't accustomed to restraint - as most horses are, as most pets are

That extra time translates to all sorts of extra physiological responses that are ultimatley harder on the little guys than a quick snip, and back up to momma and the rest of the herd.

[CottonBear]

82. True! Good points! BTW, gelding a horse is gnarley dude!

No way I could I be a large animal vet! I am doing better with the blood and guts part of dealing with large equines who can fall ill, hurt themsleves (frequently) or require humane euthanasia.

[Kali]

83. And have you noticed with animals that there is some kind of inverse

relationship betweeen the price you pay for one and the odds of them needing vet care!

[CottonBear]

86. Yes I have!

Whoever coined the phrase "healthy as a horse" never owned one. ;)

I'm lucky that the husband of the couple from whom I bought my Cotton filly (and who own the farm where she lives with 20 other horses) is a retired Veterinary Professor! He has a DVM as well as a masters and a PhD in Vet Med. I'm learning a lot about what can go wrong with a horse! Luckily (knock on wood), my filly has been unusually hale and hearty and healthy! I hope she stays that way. Just in case, I have an insurance policy for her that covers both major medical and mortality.

[hedgehog]

84. I suspect in this case the anethesia was tro distract the animals

for the protection of the vets more than anything else. Is it routine to use anethesia for younger and smaller colts?

[CottonBear]

88. Sedation & tranquilizing are not the same as anesthesia.

However, sedation and tranquilizing are two different things! (Confused yet?) The vet used a special cocktail of both types of drugs which he injected into the colts. Then he injected the lidocaine. The colt is leaned up against a wall. The helper holds the twitch (a special kind of clamp on the colt's nose which causes endorphins to be released due to the pressure) and the halter and also helps to steady the colt.

There is less swelling when the gelding is done with the colt standing rather than lying down. The gelding can be done with the colt lying down.

In answer to your question, horses are routinely sedated and tranquilized when procedures such as minor surgeries, dental work and gelding are undertaken. Full anesthesia takes place in a LArge Animal Vet Hospital or Clinic where a special tilting table is used to support the "sleeping" horse.

[hedgehog]

85. Consider the source of the story

I think it entirely proper for someone in an agriculture class to be teaching proper technique for animal castration. If you don't think this is a common practice, just walk through your local ag store. Personally, I'd have more questions about branding than I would about castration. Please note, I said questions, not judgments. I've never been around branded cattle. It looks nasty on TV, but what do I know?

[CottonBear]

90. Many show horses, especially Arabs, Warmblood breeds and

Quarter Horses are branded. Many brands cause the hair to grow back in a different pattern so that the area has fur but the brand is still visible.

[Kali]

95. My take on brands.

(Disclaimer: I have been know to say I would rather have a brand than a tatoo - they look cooler)

For range animals it is the only permanent legal way to identify them. At least in Arizona it is required by law. They are outdoor animals with pretty tough hides - watch what they do to each other "playing" or vying for social position, observe when they go through brush etc etc. A good hot brand applied well makes a mark a few inches in diameter and probably causes a bit of discomfort. Not anything like burning the tip of your finger on a hot surface, because there aren't anywhere near the numbers of nerve-endings. (Your back wouldn't hurt as bad as your finger either)

When we do our calves we brand, vaccinate, castrate, and tag their ears (exactly like a bigger ear-piearcing device that stores use - inserts the tag as it punches the ear) With a skilled crew this can be done in less than 30 to 45 seconds.

When the babies trot back to their mommas the thing that seems to bother them the most is that tag hanging from thier ear - they shake their heads a couple of times while Momma sniffs them over, maybe giving a lick or two to the burned hair of the brand - then they start sucking and everything is kosher again.



Can't believe nobody has brought up the subject of calf fries in this thread!

[CottonBear]

100. Calf fries. I don't want to discuss those. :( n/t

[AlienGirl]

102. So do you believe there is ANYTHING that is physically painful to animals?

Is there anything that you would consider too painful to do? Or do you believe that the difference between animal cognitive abilities and human abilities is so great that animals don't suffer no matter what is done to them?

Tucker

[Kali]

103. Pretending that you really do want to know,

hell yes, I think they can suffer, god I have seen some horrible things, have had to put animals down, that is why I know that the things I talked about upthread aren't cruel. I have seen animals with broken legs that have been hit by trains or cars, I have seen poisoned animals - I have seen animals NOT handled well that hurt themselves and that suffer horrible injuries and pain.

I have seen snake bites, calves with their asses chewed off by sick coyotes or dogs running wild, I have seen cattle that have injured each other with their horns, in car wrecks, hurt on fences and wire. I have watched cows wither away while I tried to cure them or at least learn what was wrong, only to find 30 grocery bags tangled up inside. I have seen first calf heifers struggle to birth a calf that was too big, .... life is messy - it includes a lot of suffering and death. When I say a quick castration by someone who knows what they are doing, without drugs is not cruel, I say it with some experience. I am not a bullshitter. I will always admit if I don't know something - look upthread - I have never been around pigs, I admitted that - I put my opinion out there based on experience and real knowlegde.

[arwalden]

87. Couldn't Be Any Worse Than...

... DOG BREEDING! :rofl:

[Blue-Jay]

97. How DARE you breed dogs!

You probably ate the flesh of your own dead great grand aunt!

BARBARIAN!!!

[UCLA02]

89. I drive thru Rosamond 2-3 times/wk

It's pretty backwards and out in the middle of fucking nowhere.

Judging from those I see at the gas station or Taco Bell when I am running on fumes and have no other choice but to stop, lest I run out of gas in the desert and get sodomized by the locals, they should be castrating the people there, not the pigs. Eastern and southern Kern County is the desert's version of Deliverance, complete with banjos and cousin-fuckers.

I'm with the DA's office in one of the rural courts in Eastern Kern County and not many defendants that come thru our court have a full set of teeth.

Also, if you remember about a year and a half ago about the 20 or so dogs (pit bulls, I think) that were abandoned fenced in at a trailer home and began to eat eachother (and got PETA all up in arms) was in the town of Mojave, about 10 miles north of Rosamond. The region is truly a petrie dish to examine multi-generational inbreeding, no offense to our inbred Freeper bretheren who might be lurking, of course...

[Kali]

92. I wouldn't want to disparage any inbred multi-generational

freepers either, but watch the missing teeth remarks - with the state of the health care system and the numbers of rising poverty its likely there will be a hell of lot more folks living with those less expensive "extractions".

Dental work gets put in the "elective" catagory pretty fast when you are poor.

[UCLA02]

94. The ones I see are rotted out from meth use.

Quite avoidable, methinks, "elective" category notwithstanding.

My comment was directed at the tweekers, not at the poor. Not to get in a drug-abuse-is-an-illness debate, but becoming the former is, in the end, an avoidable choice in the first place, while the latter, more often than not, is quite involuntary.

[Kali]

96. I'll agree with you on that one.

I've done my share of chemical recreating, but meth :scared:

[KFC]

93. I think getting your balls cut off might be painful

No matter how "quick" it is. Getting shot is pretty quick, and I am really sure that hurts.

[Kali]

98. Have you ever been shot?

I have read several accounts of people been shot by guns (or notoriously, by nail guns!) and not realizing it! (being a bit of a smart ass here, but still....)

[UCLA02]

99. Yeah, and the Xray pics are fun, too!!

...ESPECIALLY when they don't realize it. ;-)



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/17/national/17nail.html?ex=1140930000&en=ba2b6fda9160290d&ei=5070
(NYT archives require free membership and login)

[KamaAina]

101. I assume the pig was among those protesting

:spank:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. Yeah, a high-pitched voice is a boon in such events.

:spank: :spank: :spank: