I turn to you for advice re: personal liberties

[JackintheGreen]

I am working on my PhD at a mid-Atlantic private university. A library policy has begun to trouble me, and I am seeking the opinions of those I respect. As has become standard, visitors to the library must present ID to enter; for students and faculty it just means swiping it through a barcode reader. This has become standard pretty much everywhere around here, so I'm OK with it, though it dawned on me today that the only other campus buildings with such a requirement are the dorms (now THAT'S understandable). But this is an issue for another day.

What's bothering me is this: On exiting the library we must walk through a magnetic detector and SHOW THE CONTENTS OF OUR BAGS. I did this without thinking for 3 semester - just open your bag without stopping and walk on by. But then it dawned on, sudden like, that this is a huge invasion of privacy. If the sensor beeps when I walk through, sure, that gives them cause to look in your bag. But if the sensor does not beep, what right do they have to search my personal belongings? Because that's what it amounts to.

So I started walking through without opening my bag. Sometimes nobody says anything, but increasingly they request I show them my bag. I refuse, saying it violates my privacy. "Sorry sir, it's policy. Take it up with my boss." I usually take my books and walk out anyway. Today it almost got tense.

Now, thus far I have not had a chance to talk to the library about this policy, but there is nothing on the library website to this effect. My wife, no slouching automaton she, thinks I'm crazy and should just drop it. So I'm turning to you before I make a huge fuss with the administration. Should I just suck it up and show the damn bag, or is this a real civil liberties/privacy issue that slowly acclimatizes us to an environment of check points and paper?

Should I fight this?

Majority wins, folks. I'll do what my fellow DUers think is just.

[LostinVA]

1. I can answer that for you from personal experience

It's a safety issue. Library stacks are, unfortunately, rife with crime -- rapes, assaults, etc. It is not a personal liberty thing, but a safety issue. WE caught people bringing in crime tools -- tools, masks, etc. (there was a bathroom in the library whose lock could be jammed with a screwdriver and women had been raped in there), guns (we had a mean who used to beat his wife up in the library because she wasn't home making dinner -- he had a gun on him one time), razor blades (for cutting apart books for theft), etc. This wasn't in inner-city Baltimore, either.

They can legally do this, especially if you are in NC or VA. Seriously, it's not a Freeper thing. Librarians are the most liberal people in the world, and are standing up for YOUR personal liberties every day of the week.

It's for your safety. That's it.

[fleabert]

2. except the OP stated the bag is only checked upon exiting...

I lean towards agreeing with them. without cause, no reason to do a physical inspection.

[LostinVA]

4. Oh, I didn't read that right -- it's for theft

There's a way to disable the book from beeping... it's easy to do if you know how. Your hair would stand on end if you knew how many millions of dollars in collections are stolen from libraries every year. Some of it is literally irreplaceable. And, all libraries are having budgets slashed -- even highly rated academic libraries. If you replace stolen stuff, you can't buy new stuff. Some of it even shows up on ebay and in private auctions.

So, there is cause.

And no, I won't tell how to disable the beepy thing.

[fleabert]

5. I can see that, but...we clearly need a better security system than a

peek into a persons bag without just cause. But that costs money, and lord knows the public libraries aren't getting any extra. But college and university libraries should- tuition is as high as ever.

I worked at Barnes & Noble for a bit, same system for theft?

[LostinVA]

8. Trust me, public academic don't have any extra money

We don't even have a security guard. The money goes somewhere else -- I guess athletics.

Similar system for theft (I've worked book retail before)... but a bit more... invasive.

[fleabert]

10. I guess it depends on the school.

I know UT spends a buttload of money on its libraries, their rare book collection and preservation program are amazing. Seems like schools would put a focus on their books, since, um...people are there to learn and stuff. sad.

[LostinVA]

14. Yeah, but come on! Football and stuff is more important

What are you? A COMMIE???

[JackintheGreen]

6. I already know how...

I've worked in libraries, and I understand that theft is an issue, and I know exactly how to do it should I ever want to. But the simple fact is that it is NO deterent. I also ride a motorcycle and wear a very bulky jacket with many large pockets. They do not ask to search those. Even if I set of the sensor, I could hide a book in the lining of my coat (where the kevlar armor goes) and nobody would ever figure it out. If the alarm beeps and there's nothing in my bag, where do they search next? And where does it stop? "Excuse me, sir? There is a possibilty that you may have concealed a book underneath you trousers after disabling the magnetic device. Would you mind?" Furthermore, the majority of guards do no more than give a cursory look. They do not hande the bag, they do not search pockets other than the one presented (and I have a backpack with three BIG pockets...I only need open one). If they must search, and I am not convinced that they must, then they should SEARCH, dammit!

By contrast, my public library has the same sensors but do not require a bag search. Would you feel comfortable opening your bag to a public librarian, or when exiting a department store? It amount to the same thing, in my view. We do live in a civilized nation - to be sure, one full of scummy people - so there should be a certain level of trust. If the beeping thing goes off, search me. I'm fine with that. I forget what I'm carrying all the time. Otherwise, I should be trusted not to be a thief unless evidence can be presented to the contrary.

BTW, I completely understand the entrance/ID protocols. I don't object to those for the reasons you cite, especialy in dorms. But why only the library? Why not the academic/classroom or administrative buildings? Just a tangential thought.

[LostinVA]

9. I have no idea about the ID thing

I've never seen that done before.

But, the reason they don't search your person or bag is because they aren't allowed to. In NC, if we knew they had a book inside their coat, the guard would call campus police.

It does help. We recovered hundreds of books, journals, book pages, etc. this way. And, the robber was disciplined by the University if a student, and arrested if a non-student. An Associate Professor was actually fired for having priceless maps in his bag.

[Benfea]

12. I figured there had to be a good explanation for it.

I mean, librarians as a group are not just liberal, but highly libertarian (and no, I don't mean that in the modern "I can't admit I'm a conservative wacko" sense). They alone stood up to the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act at a time when just about everyone else was afraid of standing up to the Bushistas for fear of appearing "disloyal."

I can't possibly see this as a regular privacy issue.

[LostinVA]

16. Let me tell you how strict they are about privacy issues

Many libraries want to redesign their online catalogs to make them better for web-savvy patrons... but, to set up a catalog that looks like, say Amazon, or Wal-Mart's book section (which studies show patrons want), a little bit of privacy must go away. ie... librarians don't like cookies being set, search habits being saved, etc. So, that's why very few libraries have done this. However, NC State has a GREAT new OPAC, and that'll be the wave of the future,m I suspect.

In most states, it's a FELONY to tell another patron who has a certain book checked out. Librarians lobbied for that law. Unless you go to Bob JOnes or something, I promise you that your library staff will be your communities most stalwart defenders of your privacy rights. It's in our ethics statement, also.

[Benfea]

18. Cool beans

:thumbsup:

[huskerlaw]

3. That's really weird

I work at a private university library. We have the following:
1) a magnetic detector (more than one, actually...one by the front door, one by the reserve collection)
2) security guards (one or two on duty at all times, at a desk right next to the front door)

We randomly check IDs of people entering the library on normal days. We always check them during exam periods. And of course we check them if the person wants to check any books out.

As for opening the bags...ONLY if the sensor goes off. We NEVER search bags randomly, and certainly not everyone by policy.

There may be a decent reason for it, though I'm not thinking of any at the moment. I would kindly email the director of the library and ask to schedule an appointment. Discuss the policy with him/her. It would be beneficial to speak to some other library patrons to see if anyone else feels the same way. Approach it as a curiosity/concern rather than running in screaming privacy violation. Find out what their reasoning is. Then decide if that reason is good enough or if you think you need to pursue the matter further.

If you do need to pursue further, contact your student government rep.

Good luck!

[JackintheGreen]

7. This is a good point

> Approach it as a curiosity/concern rather than running in screaming privacy violation.

I'm mad as hell right now, but cooler heads shall always prevail.

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

11. I've got two things to say:

"Presumptive guilt"

"Probable Cause"

Interpret these anyway you like... :dilemma:

I won't say what you should do -- I don't have your life, or your obligations... but I would not comply. :mad: :nuke:

[Benfea]

13. *points up* I say open your bag. -NT

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. You'd be amazed how much stuff is stolen from libraries

Especially from the rare book sections - people go in with razor blades and take out old maps or plates; or just steal old books outright.

Sounds ridiculous, since you'd think that scholars who would be interested in rare and medievel books would be the type smart enough not to steal shit, but that's totally false - theft abounds at a ridiculous and stupid rate.

[LostinVA]

17. Thanks, Rabrrrrr

It's a horrible problem, especially in academic libraries.