So tell me about "Starship Troopers" the book

[LynneSin]

I was watching the movie this weekend because let's face it - it's so campy you just have to watch it. I know this movie was based on a book that came out in the 40s and in the movie the characters had uniforms that were eerily like those worn during Germany WW2

Who wrote this book? Was he trying to do something that was almost pro-hitler with it with the bugs being the "Jews" (they talked alot about "exterminating the bugs")

Who has read the book and knows about this?

[ZombieNixon]

1. Robert Heinlein

Actually, I've never read the book as I'm not a big Heinlein fan, but he has wild swings from fascit militarism to...well, libertarian militarism. I've always heard this was one of the more fascist ones. :shrug:

[meegbear]

2. You mean it's not based on the Yes song?

Who knew? :shrug:

[TheBaldyMan]

3. Heinlein was an extreme libertarian, or as we call them in Europe

fascist. The film flips Heinlien's politics on their head, so the entire film is a thinly disguised dig at extreme right-wing politics.

Unfortunately, as with all of Heinlein's fiction, it is steeped in reactionary and fascist views. I read most of his stuff when I was a teenage boy but grew out of it a couple of years after puberty.

If you must read his stuff be prepared to be exposed to a diatribe of sexism and neo-fascist drivel.

[Orrex]

6. Nice!

Too often I hear Heinlein being praised as a visionary, one of the few sf writers who "get" it. It's refreshing to hear a harsh criticism of him from someone other than myself!

:applause:

[mr blur]

16. Not quite sure about Fascist

but extreme right-wing reactionary garbage just about sums it up.

I always found Stranger In A Strange Land rather unpleasant too, but it's 30 years since I read these books.

[anarch]

29. Well at least it's "Compassionate Fascism"

A strange book...it's been a long time since I read it, but I recall being somewhat bemused by its politics. I couldn't tell how much was satire and how much was some kind of bizarre psychological commentary. The idea of Moral and Political Philosophy as an exact science was food for thought, anyway...that and the whole corporal punishment thing.

[Ravenseye]

40. He wasn't fascist

Come on. Libertarian maybe, but not fascist.

"I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!" Heinlein, Guest of Honor speech at the XIXth World Science Fiction Convention, 1961

Does that sound fascist?

[TheBaldyMan]

57. In the novel and the film the 'volunteer army' that he portrays is a

gateway to citizenship, you can't vote if you haven't been in the military, you can't get a decent job if you don't haven't been in the military (unless you are well connected).

That passage you quoted might not sound fascist but the extreme right wing views expressed many times over by himself and in his books do sound fascist, it may be more politically correct to call Heinlein's views: extreme right-wing libertarianism but I call it fascism. Small government, small business and social Darwinism.

The reason I enjoyed the film was because it did rip into his views and satirised them, Heinlein must have been spinning in his grave.

[Orsino]

4. Robert A. Heinlein wrote the book.

This page has a good examination.

It's a marvelous book, though written in the late fifties with some of the sexism we would expect from that era. Though Heinlein didn't put any women in ground combat, he did have women starship pilots.

The political theory is pretty simple: citizenship is not prized without sacrifice, and the only sacrifice that counted on his future Earth was government service (the armed forces were only one way, though perhaps the most common, toward the franchise). While such a scheme has a lot to recommend it, I favor universal suffrage for adults. I wouldn't call the book "fascist" (the most popular dismissal) so much as it is reverent of the honor inherent in selfless service. There are moments of real beauty in the description of military training, and it was a secret inspiration for my own enlistment.

If you're as antiwar as I am, though, you'll want to read the antidote, Joe Haldeman's The Forever War, also on most short lists of greatest-ever science fiction. Haldeman, himself a Vietnam vet, takes Heinlein's powered armor and bug-eyed aliens into a dystopian and truly fascist future. The parallels to Southeast Asia are striking, and relativistic time-dilation makes this war drag on for thousands of years.

I won't recommend one book wihout the other, these days.

[Ravenseye]

38. read Starship Troopers then read The Forever War

It's the perfect counterpoint you're absolutely right.

[Bassic]

5. I love the way that movie was made.

Just like a very effective propaganda campaing. Makes you cheer for the aggressors all along.

[baldguy]

15. Obersturmführer Doogie Howser

The parallels of the news broadcasts in the movie (from 1997) & Fox after 9/11 are striking.

[LostinVA]

27. Oh, definitely right out of Leni's book of Nazi filmmaker tricks

My hair stood on end when I saw it in a theater, because almost everyone was rooting for the WRONG side....

[Bassic]

30. See the sad thing is that most people didn't even realize it

Not many people to whom I have talked about the movie were even close to getting the point.

[LostinVA]

31. I think it was definitely meant to be like that

[Bassic]

37. Yes it was, but I would have thought that more people would have gotten

the point after they watched it. I was disapointed. Of course, I'm just takling about the people I've met who have seen it. I am in no position to make a general assumption about it.

[Bridget Burke]

7. Robert Heinlein' s politics are hard to pin down.

He flirted with socialism early on but became more conservative. Perhaps "Libertarian" is the best word, but he was pretty contrary. Heinlein was NOT pro-Hitler. Some of his works show oppressive governments--Communist, Fascist or Faith-Based--he didn't like them. He made some pretty good guess on future science & social matters.

Starship Troopers (the book) could be more satire than "how things ought to be." The "bugs" are insectoid aliens. That is, they look like bugs! Perhaps you ought to actually read the book. Heinlein was, after all, pretty damn readable.

Many of us prefer his short fiction, earlier novels & juvenile fiction to his later works--"Stranger In A Strange Land" etc. Often his political ideas do not get in the way of fine stories & interesting characters. In some ways, his place is similar to Rudyard Kipling's. I'm not the first to make this observation.

[LynneSin]

8. Just because the bugs were actual 'bugs'

doesn't mean there could have been a connection betweenHeilein story and Hitler (and other dictators) view towards extremist measure to deal with those races considered "undesirable". Perhaps by making them bugs instead of human beings, it would be easier for the readers to agree with the humans and their reasoning for the war against the bugs.

[Bridget Burke]

9. So READ THE BOOK!

I've never seen the movie, so I can't discuss the movie with you.

After you've read the book, let's talk.

[LynneSin]

10. Look, I wasn't trying to start a book discussion here

Just asking for those who read the book if they have gotten a sense of 'Pro-Hitler/Facism' in the reading of the book. So why, for some bizarre reason you need to be rude and yell at me is sorta uncalled for. I probably won't read the book. First, I'm not a science fiction fan and second I have about 10 other books on my list of what I do want to read. Your comment was that in the book they were bugs, which was what was done in the movie. I simply was asking about the allegory I felt that the movie geared towards these regimes and if in the book the bugs had some sort of meaning on who they were.

Sorry to inconvinence you about all of this. The book has no appeal to me; whereas the campy nature of the movie makes for interesting entertainment when one is stuck at home and sick on a Saturday night and needs some brain candy.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Sorry the capital letters were so offensive.

But you were making assumptions about a book you haven't read. Perhaps you shouldn't ask questions about a book if you don't want a book discussion.

For the final time: Robert Heinlein had many quirks--some of them political. But I've gotten no sense of "Pro Hiter/Fascism" from any of his works. However, I've read most of them--so perhaps I'm not qualified.

And I haven't seen that movie.

[LynneSin]

36. Actually I wasn't making assumptions

I was presenting a sense that the movie was depicting (yes a bad, campy movie) and was curious if that was how the book was styled.

[Rabrrrrrr]

26. Well, you were trying to force a point on a book you haven't read

I never, ever thought while reading the book that the bugs were Jews, or that Heinlein was pro-Hitler. In fact, I never thought of world war II at all.

[LynneSin]

34. I wasn't forcing a point, just asking a question

I just felt that the movie eerilier seemed a little too germany/hitler era-like and wanted to know if that was the feeling of the book. I realize that movies tend to be totally chopped up from what the book was about so I just wanted to ask the question if that was the same feeling one would get if they read the book. It was a simple enough question :D

And no, probably still won't read the book. I read all the time and have a ton on my list already

[LostinVA]

28. Lynne -- yes, you get that in the book, but it's magnified in the movie

The film was very controversial because of this.

We actually read the book as part of a WWII class in college. That, Mein Kampf, and a few other things.

[ksilvas]

11. I read it, it was more political than sci-fi

To me the book describes a world were humanity becomes
a militarized society similar to Greek Sparta. Life is
defined by military service, gender divisions based on military ability, and of course class.
The bugs are almost incidental in the book, they simply represent a universal threat to
justify the authoritarian society. Sound familiar.
The technology described in the book is way more interesting
than the dumb ass movie.
I read it before the movie which made the movie
"mind numbingly boring".
It's a short and interesting read.

[Giant Robot]

12. I agree

It, to me, was more of a political treatise than scifi story. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a fund read, and do re-read it on occasion, but think more of it in that light.

I think the bugs were just some sort of convenient plot device so that he could show military life in this will to power kind of world. Other people can take them for what they will, and I cannot speak for that. But for me, reading the story, the bugs were kind of, well, like you said, incidental. That reminds of my time in college, during some lit class, where one of the guys in my class was talking about the trees of this one story being phallic symbols, and other stuff of that nature. As Freudian as I like to get, that seemed like nonsense. Sometimes I think we get to far into trying to understand someone else's secret meaning, and we miss what is in front of us.

Heinlein, as far as I have read, moved along a political continuum, probably like most of us do throughout our lives. I daresay he went through a pretty fascist, reactionary kind of stage, and Starship Troopers was probably a byproduct of that. But probably reading his later works, it looks like that had calmed some, and would be categorized more conservative or libertarian than anything.

It still is a fun read.

[Squeech]

13. No, I think this is how it works

Heinlein is a reactionary, yes, but he has never been a fascist and, outside the specific context of military discipline, is no fan of authoritarianism.

That said, as stated above, the political system postulated in Starship Troopers privileges veterans. Asked why, one character says that it's justified because it works pragmatically-- he says (I paraphrase because I don't remember exactly) "We singled out the aggressive sheep and made them the sheepdogs." Anyone with the chutzpah to challenge the system is granted citizenship and thereby the responsibility to maintain the system.

In the book, the bugs being bugs implies that they have no independent judgment, they're just robots under the command of the brain caste. The military implication of this is that their strategies are incomprehensible to our streategists. They're perfectly cool with expending millions of worker bees to achieve an objective, something that a human general would risk court martial for.

The movie is a burlesque-- as you said, campy. I thought it sucked, and not just because it smeared a book I like-- I thought the CGI bugs were better actors than the humans. (And what's with all those lily-whites that were supposed to be Latinos?)

For a Heinlein novel that's unambiguously libertarian, and kinda fun, try The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. For one that I take (perhaps wrongly) as his real philosophy, try Citizen of the Galaxy.

[Orsino]

17. Not just military veterans, though.

Anyone who has already demonstrated willingness to sacrifice or face death to support the system gets the responsibility of voting, which is held in similar esteem. It's not just aggression being selected for, then--it's anyone who cares enough to do far more than wave a flag.

It's a nice message for today's yellow-ribbon "patriots," whether or not Heinlein was seriously proposing it as a system of government.

[sarge43]

41. It wasn't just military service ...

In the book, Heinlein made it very clear service did not have to be military.

The premise was in order to have the responsibility and privilege of franchise and the right to hold public office, a person had to show a willingness to do some sort of service to the society in return. So, anyone who wanted their franchise could volunteer for two years of what amounted to community service. If a ninety-three year old blind, deaf paraplegic decided she wanted to vote, she signed up, did her two and was then was franchised. During her two, some sort of meaningful work was found for her to do. As one character said, (paraphrasing) 'If all they can do is count the hairs on caterpillars, we'll find a lab that's studying caterpillars and they'll work there.' Only two restrictions -- the person had to be 18 and s/he had to put in the full two to get the vote. No bailing and hiding out in Alabama.

Military service was much more restricted. Obviously, the ninety-three year old wouldn't be accepted because (1) "Everybody jumps." and (2) if the person went the military route, s/he had to put in 20 years before they could vote.

Don't be put off by the science fiction label, just because the setting is in space, that doesn't make a story scifi per se. It is superficially Boy's Life juvie fiction, but some interesting ideas embedded under the mayhem.

[Bridget Burke]

19. I loved Citizen of the Galaxy.

It was the first Heinlein I ever read.

The portrayal of a World (or Universe) in a book does not necessarily mean that it is the author's ideal.

[billyskank]

14. I read it, and I didn't think it was fascist

:hi:

[Laelth]

20. Yuck.

You're not entitled to vote unless you join the military.

Excuse me while I ... :puke:

Don't get me wrong. Service to country is good, but there are plenty of non-military ways to serve, and service ought not be required to vote.

-Laelth

[HawkerHurricane]

32. If you read the book, you would know...

that the right to vote was given for 'service'... "Often dangerous, always unpleasent"... to the government. This included the military, yes... but also raw scientific research, exploration work, and at times 'make work': you could not be excluded from serving except for psychological reasons (Unable to understand the oath). And, at any time during your service except actual combat, you could quit. If you quit, you were discharged with 'service incomplete' and not given the right to vote, and NO other penalty.
There was no draft, you could not be forced to serve...
The movie's directer wanted to do a anti-fascism screed, and someone told him Heinlien's book was fascistic... so he did it without reading the book.
The screenwriters wanted to rip off Heinlien without paying for the rights of the name, so they wrote a 'giant insect vs. marine' story, but couldn't sell it. So, they paid Heinlien's wife, slapped the original title on the rip off, and let the directer make it worse.

[sarge43]

45. Exactly

I forgot about the psychological restriction. The other thing was those people who did not do service weren't second class citizens. They had full protection of the law; they just did not officially participate in the society's political life. The book Starship Troopers is not a fascist screed.

[Bridget Burke]

47. We must not suggest that those with questions actually read the book.

They will get insulted.

[HawkerHurricane]

53. I will do worse than that...

Anyone in Southern California who is interested, I will LOAN you my copy... and then never ask for it back... if you promise to read it.

[realisticphish]

21. I LOVE the book

Some of the politics lean a little libertarian for me, but it's a fantastic read nonetheless.

Not to mention that what the soldiers wore in the book was absolutely NOTHING like the movie. In the book, they wore robotic suits that let them jump hundreds of feet, and have tremendous strength; they also used flame throwers, not projectile weapons, and also had "baby nukes" that they could fire like a stinger from the back of the suit. WAAAAAAY cooler, IMHO :D

[hedgehog]

22. As I recall, the bugs were sort of non-entities other than as enemies

I do recall the depiction of civilians as sheep that were kind of pitied by members of the armed forces. Was that the book where the high school teacher subtly encourages the kids to enlist by suggesting that they don't have it in them? I think he may have been an amputee? The main character's mother is adamantly against his enlistment and is killed later on when his home town is bombed. His father enlists and there is a father -son reunion where the old man finally has come to understand the values and responsibilities of citizenship that his son learned about.

[HawkerHurricane]

33. Such a mangling...

the movie did.

The main character in the book, Juan (Johnny) Rico is a Philipino from Manila. His mother does die in Buenos Aires, but she's not from there. The High School teacher was a vet, and Juan's father does imply that the teacher was 'recruiting'.

The bugs were portrayed as kill everything in thier path genocidal (with shades of Chinese Communism implied), but the bugs did have 'allies' that were subverted (the 'Skinnies').

There's a lot to the novel, the movie doesn't do it justice.

[LynneSin]

35. Don't most mass-murdering dictators see their victims the same way

From everything I"ve seen & read about Hitler's Germany and the holocaust, none of them really thought of the Jewish population as human

[Bridget Burke]

39. Yes, but most of us think that "message" is not in the book.

Is this book discussion limited only to those who have not read it? Or whose opinions match yours?

Really--it's not a hard book. Not too many long words. And Heinlein could write well--despite his personal quirks.

[LynneSin]

44. That's just fricking insultive

I would have respected your message that this was not was found in the book.

I happen to enjoy books with big words and could be a difficult read. Hell I read Moby Dick, Ivanhoe and Ulysses when I was only 11 years old. Trust me, being an asshole about that last comment isn't going to endear me to read the book.

As I've mentioned before, I'm not a fan of Science Fiction writing but simply curious if a movie, a poorly made but campy movie, was overdoing it on the facism or if that was the intent of the book.

I don't mean to be rude but since you insist on being rude sometimes that's the only way to get the message back. I had posted a simple question - why must you be rude?

[Bridget Burke]

46. Alas, you have hurt my delicate feelings.

Boo hoo.

[tigereye]

56. I think all she was saying is

that it would benefit you to read the book and answer your own question. I loved Heinlein when I was a teenager, but I was more interested in his books' salacious qualities at the time than their political ones. It sounds like many of his books would be worth a re-read ( or a first read!) to get a different perspective.

At the time I did not see his books as having any allegorical tendencies directly related to WWII, but many SF writers at that time (and writers, philosophers, artists, psychologist ( everyone!) of that period in general) were influenced by the war and the moral questions it raised. I never felt that he was a fascist.

Happy Reading!

[sarge43]

50. The 'enemy' is always dehumanized

The political system has little to do with it.

Check out some Life magazines after Dec 41. The drawings of Japanese are hair raising; they're portrayed as monsters. I remember one article, "How to tell a Chinese from a Jap". Then, if you can find any of their pictures, the Japanese portrayal of Americans is equally ugly. For something a bit more classy, there's Goya's Execution and the Odessa Steps scene in Battleship Potemkin. In both, the 'enemy' is a faceless automaton; only the outline is human.

[hedgehog]

23. What I loved most about the movie - warning - spoiler

Not one but two (count them TWO) sneak attacks by the bugs.

No one could figure out that bullets did nothing and that you needed grenades.

[achtung_circus]

24. Many of the posters have it wrong.

Citizenship, the ability to vote, was not a result of military service, it was not some Spartan warrior society.

Citizenship came as a result of Federal service, and there was a wide list of things to choose from. If you had the ability and the credentials you could do anything.

Our hero Johnnie, a privileged kid from an affluent society had nothing but attitude. He ended up at the bottom rung, in the Mobile Infantry.

Much of the book is the story of how Johnnie grew up. It was in the military, where he got some discipline and some self-respect.

The war with the bugs was started by the bugs. They were a society built on castes, very much like ants.

With the war came a huge expansion in the military and the war continued. Our Johnnie went to officer school and grew up some more.

The movie sucked.

It avoided any thought process at all, it was mere shoot-em-up.

The idea of taking personal responsibility for the society in which you live is not new, it's not Fascist, at most it might be libertarian. This is not Heinlein's most libertarian book, that would probably be Farnham's Freehold.

I concur with the suggestion above about The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, it's a good read, as are most of Heinlein's books.

Personally I think he went a little overboard on Lazarus Long, but that's me.

[AllegroRondo]

43. The movie also missed an important point

While it does get to the basic idea that only Citizens, those who have served society, have the right to vote. But it left out a key conversation from the book - WHY only citizens have this right.

The movie sticks with Johnnie's answer "citizens have put their lives on the line for the good of society"

But the teacher's answer from the book is "Because it works. You may not understand it or like it, but it works just as well or better than any of the many other forms of government mankind has come up with, so we keep it."

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. The book is actually quite serious and wonderful

While the movie is a hell of a lot of fun, it is so dramatically different than the book it's laughable, and really quite sad.

[Mutley]

42. Great book.

Robert Heinlein, as many have already told you. The society they live in is indeed a fascist one, likely modeled after Nazi Germany. All of Heinlein's books I've read have been excellent.

[BigMcLargehuge]

49. absolutely not!

read his essay "Who are the Sons of Patrick Henry" to see where his idea for the society in Starship Troopers came from. It all stemmed from his thoughts on franchise and had nothing, zilch, zip, nada, zero to do with Nazi Germany, or any other "fascist" state. No leader, president, congress, etc, is EVER mentioned in the book. The politics begin and end with voting.

[hedgehog]

48. I will say this about the book

I read it in the spring of 1968, and I still recall many of the details. That should tell you something. It's a fast read and very thought provoking although I don't agree with Heinlein.

[BigMcLargehuge]

51. the bugs are a metaphor for communism

the powered armor is a metaphor for nuclear weapons.

Heinlein was of the belief that we should develop as many nuclear weapons as possible to thwart a possible land invasion of Russian and Chinese communists that far, far, outnumbered us. The nuclear weapons were the technological advantage that nullified their manpower advantage. The bugs are meant to literally represent a society in which soldiers are born ready to fight, and can be produced in vast, almost unlimited numbers whereas the humans have to train. When bug dies, another bug can be born to fill its spot immediately. When a human dies, a new human must be trained to fill its place. The powered armor allows the humans to kill a vast number of bugs per-human akin to the way nuclear weapons can kill vast numbers of people and have the same military effect as sending battalions of people into battle.

If you want parallels, look at the tactical situation in Vietnam. It's very similar.

[sakabatou]

52. I liked the book

The movie was just well... a very weird take on the book. When I saw it, I said many times, "That's not in the book!"

[khashka]

54. It was Bob Heinlein

His politics were weird....socialist, fascist, libertarian... you never knew.

Starship Troopers is very fascist.... but in WW2 Bob was in the military. Navy. He wanted to fight against Hitler but was given a deskjob. He never really got over that.

He has said "conscription" is just another word for slavery. In the book everyone is conscripted.... but not just into the military. As social workers, therapists etc.

But you are wrong about the Jews. Bob hated anti-Semiticism. Feircely. In the thirties when it wasn't cool.. And it disgusted him the way blacks were treated.



The thing about Bob.... he liked to play with ideas. And he has often been misunderstood.



Khash.

Proudly one of Bob's children.

[Arkham House]

55. Excellent Post

heinlein was a great writer, and a lively one...look at the debate this thread has spawned, nearly 50 yerars after the novel came out...what other books that old still have any life in them? And his politics were, as you said, all over the map...rather like Al Capp, he was relatively "liberal" in his younger days, then "conservative" as he got older...but I like to think if he was around today, he'd be ferociously against our American Taliban...which of course he predicted, in "Revolt in 2100"...

[khashka]

58. Absolutely!

He did predict it in that story.
I love Bob with a vengeance. And yes I've called him homophobic and many women think he was anti-woman. But he evolved, he changed. He quit being anti-gay back in the 60's. Look at "I Will Fear No Evil" or what Jake says about Zeb. And Bob was never anti-woman. His female characters are smarter and more competent than the men.

BTW have you read John Varley's Steel Beach? It's a brilliant rip-off of Heinlein. In the last third of the novel he admits what he's doing. The Heinleiners are either a religious movement, a political movement, a forbidden scientific movement, or just crazies.



Given your screen name, I assume you are a fan of Lovecraft, too? I used to have a Tshirt that said "Miskatonic University Alumni". But I had to throw it away because of the bloodstains.....


Khash.

[Arkham House]

60. Never read "Steel Beach"...

...but I will now...I wish someone, maybe Spider Robinson, would write a couple of books in the Heinlein Multiverse...think there's still plenty of stories there that need telling...
Hmmm...a "Miskatonic" shirt with blood on it, huh? Mine has no blood...but it is, of course, covered with ichor...

[underpants]

59. It is a "Sci-Fi classic"

which basically means it is wanker trash.