My girlfriend just lost her job, and we wrote the best fuck-you letter...

[WilliamPitt]

...in history. Names have been deleted and changed to protect the (ahem) innocent. Bluntly, she got bounced because her manager is a psycho hose-beast. The following was sent to all the main bosses of her organization, as well as to the managers involved. Feast:

===

I have just returned from a meeting with ******** store managers Ms. A and Ms. B, in which I was informed that my services with the company are no longer required. Absolutely no explanation for this decision was given, despite my repeated attempts to extract one.

I have been a faithful employee of this company for more than three years, serving as assistant manager of the ********* location for the last year. From the beginning, I have always done everything that has been asked of me without complaint. The manner in which this termination was undertaken today, given my years of service to this company, strikes me as among the most appalling, inappropriate, wretched examples of unprofessional trade practice that I have ever been unfortunate enough to witness or endure.

So that you fully understand the breadth and depth of my outrage regarding this matter, an explanation of recent events is in order. The departure of our former manager, Ms. C, marked the conclusion of a troubling time at the store. Ms. C proved to have been a poor choice for the position. After she left, I essentially managed the store single-handedly for several months, with occasional assistance from Ms. X whenever she was available, until Ms. B was brought in from the ******* store to serve as the new manager.

This, for me, was an excellent moment. Ms. B and I had a great relationship, and the troubles seemed to be behind us. In late fall of 2005, however, matters took a turn for the worse with the hiring of Ms. A. Ms. A, while holding proper qualifications to run a software company, was in no way suited for the requirements of customer service, employee relations or retail management.

The entire staff came to realize, all too soon, that Ms. A was easily frustrated by the need to learn new skills. Often, she would remove herself entirely from the sales floor, rather than be burdened with explanations from her underlings. She became abusive towards her employees, myself included, in a serial fashion.

Before much time passed, the entire staff found itself walking on eggshells, confronted by an unreasonable and abusive manager with no understanding of the work they, or she, were required to perform. Even simple tasks like counting out registers at the close of business proved too much for her; on an almost daily basis, we discovered that registers counted out by Ms. A were short of money, which caused a ripple-effect of trouble for employees opening the store the next morning. Despite repeated attempts at instruction, Ms. A proved too obstinate to learn the proper process in this simple yet crucial task. This became an allegory for the larger issues at hand.

Sadly, Ms. B became something of a non-entity as this unfortunate process unfolded. It became clear that the errors in judgment that led to the hiring of Ms. C had been repeated in the hiring of Ms. A; they shared almost exactly the same set of personal and professional deficiencies which rendered them both ineffective and unfortunate managers. Yet it became clear that no one was going to be willing to admit a second error in judgment in the hiring of Ms. A, and so the manifest problems surrounding Ms. A went unaddressed. Ms. B was powerless to change anything, and fell silent as matters in the store became worse for all.

Several weeks ago, I suffered an absolutely unmerited personal attack from Ms. A, which was witnessed by several other employees. A situation arose on the store floor that, once again, exposed Ms. A’s inability to handle basic customer relations issues. After I stepped in to make sure the customer was taken care of, and after doing so during my lunch break, I was pulled aside by Ms. A and verbally attacked. Rather than engage in an unconstructive argument, I absorbed the attack and decided to address the issue at a more appropriate time.

I spoke at length with Ms. B about what happened, and she agreed that an apology was in order. Subsequently, Ms. B spoke with Ms. A, and in that meeting Ms. A admitted that she had been out of line, and would afford me the deserved apology. I attempted, over the next several days, to arrange a conversation between myself and Ms. A so we could clear the air. Ms. A, despite having admitted her error to Ms. B, refused to speak to me about the matter. No apology was afforded, and no explanation was given.

This is why I am no longer employed with ************. I was not terminated because of incompetence, or because of any failing normally meriting dismissal. I was terminated because Ms. A does not appear to be able to tolerate my presence. I was a reminder, for some reason that beggars understanding, of her behavior on that day several weeks ago. Rather than address what, in the main, was a relatively small personnel problem, she chose instead to shove her own mistake out the door without any kind of explanation. I was instructed specifically by Ms. A that if I wanted an explanation, I would be required to get one from you.

Every employee at ********** in **********, from the managers all the way down to the sales associates, is aware of this situation. There were, as stated, several witnesses to the initial incident between myself and Ms. A. The fact that days passed without any attempt to smooth the situation over, despite my repeated attempts to do so, caused significant disorder and distress within the staff. I can only assume that, now that I have been fired for attempting to rectify a situation caused by Ms. A, this disorder and distress have been increased by orders of magnitude.

I do not write this with any expectation of being brought back in as an employee of ***********. To be quite frank, I would not return even if I were invited. The situation in that store is calamitous. After the treatment I absorbed from Ms. A, the silence with which my attempts at rectification were greeted, and the brutal and utterly inappropriate treatment which I was afforded today, I am gratefully washing my hands of your organization after more than three years of devoted and dedicated service.

I expect and demand, however, the following measures to be taken immediately:

1. I require an explanation in writing for my termination.

2. I require a check for the 7.5 days of vacation time I have earned and am owed. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, in the case of EDS Corp. v. Attorney General, recently affirmed the assessment of civil penalties against an employer which had failed to pay unused vacation time to a terminated employee. Massachusetts Payment of Wages Statute, M.G.L. c.149, §148, requires prompt payment of wages to employees. This statute includes in the definition of wages, "any holiday or vacation payments due an employee under an oral or written agreement". Failing to pay an employee for accrued, unused vacation time could result in an assessment of civil damages, or even criminal penalties.

3. I require a severance package commensurate with my years of service, one that will help me avoid complete personal and financial calamity while I find a new job. Given the abrupt nature of this termination, that no warning was offered beforehand, that no explanation was provided before I was ordered off the premises, and that I have personal knowledge of former employees who were fired for stealing money but were given generous severance packages, I consider this requirement to be non-negotiable.

Failure on your behalf to do so will result in an official complaint, which I will file with the Attorney General’s Department of Fair Labor and Business Practices. Further civil or criminal complaints, should you fail to comply with my requirements, will be filed by my attorney in due course.

What happened to me today was inappropriate, unfair and manifestly unjust. There is, bluntly, a roomful of witnesses who can and will attest to my version of these events. Once upon a time, *********** was an excellent and enjoyable place to work. Those days, clearly, are long since departed. Meet my demands in a timely fashion, and I will happily move on with my life and pursuits. Failure to do so, however, will result in significant legal difficulties for this organization in general, and the ************** store specifically.

cc: Important Boss P
Important Boss Q
Area Manager Z
Ms. A
Ms. B

[madinmaryland]

1. Is your g/f an attorney?

Dayum. That's one hell of a letter!!!

:thumbsup:

[WilliamPitt]

3. No

But her boyfriend is the son, grandson, nephew and ex-fiancee of lawyers. He's also a former litigation paralegal. ;)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. Awesome. And who is THAT person?

:silly:

[Left Is Write]

17. Does he know about you?

;)

[miss_american_pie]

2. Retail work is all the same, isn't it?

Kick-ass letter :thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

4. Great letter. Shitty situation for her. Hope she finds something

better soon.

[pitohui]

22. sounds like she just made herself unemployable

regardless of the right or wrong of the case, what other employer in her industry is going to hire a troublemaker? once she mailed the letter, it became the property of the various bosses and managers -- and it's going to get around and bite her in the rear because it just sounds so extreme

that was really, really, really not a good thing to do

if she was a victim of injustice, she should have seen an attorney

if she was just angry and venting, then she screwed up bigtime by actually sending the letter around to multiple persons

it is sad how self destructive anger can be

[Pale Blue Dot]

38. As an employer, I have to say that your post is patently ridiculous

Do you think that employers have a database of "problem" customers? Or that they willingly share information between rivals, particularly in the huge retail industry? It's obvious you have no idea how this really works.

Will's gf will have to trouble finding another job. ESPECIALLY in retail.

[JuniperLea]

72. I don't think that's the point

I worked in HR for a major financial corporation for eight years... you need a good reference to get a good job. The competition is fierce out there.

No, there is no database. That is a ridiculous assumption and accusation. You will, however, need a good word from a former employer. When an HR person speaks with another HR person trying to get a reference, and HR person number one will only give dates worked and salary, HR person number two will no doubt have serious reservations about hiring this person. I've hired hundreds of people and have gone through thousands of resumes. I don't waste my time on someone who cannot get a decent reference from an employer or a direct supervisor.

I don't mean to piss in Will's wheaties. I'm not a "yes" gal... nor do I kiss someone's ass just because I happen to like their work. I'm a HUGE Will Pitt fan... but my bets would go toward his being off base on this one.

The proof is in the pudding and I only hope to God I'm wrong on all counts. My experience tells me no, but my heart is ever-hopeful.

[GirlinContempt]

59. That wasn't self destructive

Self destructive anger would be, say, smashing up the store after being fired, ensuring you get no severance pay, and inviting a lawsuit.

I don't know about the labour laws where Will lives, but where I live, employers aren't allowed to trash you to potential employers. The labour board will shut that down so fast their head would spin. Also, here, firing someone without notice, and without written warnings, can get you a nice little board case.

It isn't self destructive to stand up for your rights as a worker. And it isn't self destructive to try and save yourself the time and money by giving the company in question a chance to fulfill your demands before taking legal action.

[JuniperLea]

77. You don't have to bad mouth an employee to give a bad reference

All you have to do is give the bare minimum information that the law allows.

[riderinthestorm]

78. Yup, It's code for "bad hire".

If a firm just provides dates of employment and won't commit to any further commentary, I'll walk away from the candidate.

[JuniperLea]

79. Me too

There are tons of candidates out there. No need to waste your time on someone with whom you are the slightest bit suspicious. If you are like me, when you need to hire someone, you need them yesterday. You don't have time to give the benefit of a doubt and dig deeper. As someone who hires personnel, you are judged by the people you hire. You must pay close attention to the HR "codes".

[Xithras]

80. I'm a business owner, and that is 100% TRUE.

If I have to fire a bad employee and someone later calls me for a reference, I'll do nothing more than confirm their employment dates. Any questions about their work habits won't receive an answer.

Contrary to common belief, it isn't actually illegal for former employers to badmouth you to potential new employers. The reason employers don't to it is out of a fear of CIVIL litigation. If I badmouth an ex-employee, he can potentially sue me for libel. Even if I can prove the truth of what I said, there is still a financial and time loss associated with the lawsuit, and it's not worth the effort.

But the lack of a reference is code among employers. If I'm verifying employment for a potential hire (small company, we don't have an HR department) and their former employer or supervisor will only provide employment dates, that person isn't going to get hired. Managers never hesitate to rain praise on good employees, and I commonly hear managers complain that potential employee X was a great asset that they hated to lose. Those are the employees I want. When they get hesitant and refuse to talk, it's pretty much code for "bad employee". Those are the employees I don't want.

Is it fair? No, but my accountant did the math once and showed me that bad employees (those that lasted less than 120 days with the company) cost my company about $40,000 each for wages, benefits, training costs, replacement costs, and lost productivity. Even the slightest hint of problems in their work history will rule out employment here.

[JuniperLea]

83. That's my experience as well

How do you feel about peer references? How much weight do you give them?

[Xithras]

84. Almost none.

Unless the peer reference happens to have a pre-existing relationship with my company or the industry, they're almost useless. Anyone can find a handful of friends to say good things about them.

Peer references from former co-workers can be useful, as long as they're provided by the former employer and not by the applicant.

It really comes down to the fact that MANY people lie through their teeth to get jobs. HR people and business owners are really forced to look at ALL information on a resume as suspect until it's verified. If a source can't be verified to be neutral, they can't verify a fact neutrally either.

[GirlinContempt]

88. Here, it is against the law

And here, lots of places tell you when they hire you that they do not give references for that reason (among others).

[reformed_military]

71. FinnFan hit the nail on the head

Companies have learned their lessons when it comes to libel and slander. The most you will get when checking references is an answer to, "Is he/she eligible for re-hire?"

Unless she was fired for cause (which WP's gf wasn't) the answer has to be "yes".

And any employer that would listen to someone that may have an axe to grind during a hiring decision is not someone you want to work for anywho.

Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

[JuniperLea]

76. Nope, they don't have to say she is eligible for rehire

That is discretionary in at-will employment. All they have to say is the dates of employment and salary. Eligible for re-hire only means "would you hire her again". You can lawfully say no. In my state anyway.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Too many cuss words.

If they keep reading things like:

"I been a faithful ****** assistant to the ****** manager at the ******* location and I have been ******** in the ******* of the ******* while ******* up the ********* of your ********* mom."

...then they're not going to take the letter seriously.

[WilliamPitt]

6. *************

:P

[rppper]

50. those were not curse words.....

they were names and store locations that were edited out....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

67. Thank you Captain Obvious.

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. While Will Pitt might not appreciate this....

since it violates anonymity, it turns out his girlfriend used to work in Cocktwister Warehouse under the management of Shitty McTits. Over in Buttfuck, Connecticut.

[Occulus]

62. .

:rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. Good luck

I can imagine the rolling of a few pairs of eyes as they read the unexpurgated version of this. Corporations hold the cards in such cases, and they know it. They have teams of attorneys and most laws on their side.

I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago as part of a group of editorial staff who were fired for trumped-up reasons but in reality because we were over 40 and thus too expensive. My severance consisted of only that they were legally bound to give me: compensation for the vacation time I'd accrued. The company also fixed it so I couldn't receive unemployment benefits.

The suits dragged out our age-discrimination suit and depositioned us into a near-coma before timing it so we'd get a judge who was not on the side of labor, and indeed by his own admission knew little about labor law. That made the risk of going to court so great that we ended up settling for peanuts — about a third of a year's salary.

I wish better for your girlfriend.

[NewJeffCT]

9. You never know

I've had good luck contacting my State Dept of Consumer Protection on other issues (not related to employment)... and, another time, a business basically capitulated when my wife threatened to contact the BBB. The company may not want the publicity.

[sendero]

36. Were you..

.. in Massachusetts? Because a lot depends on what state you are in I believe. A lot of employment law is Federal, but the states have plenty of laws also.

[Pale Blue Dot]

40. That's definitely true.

I've worked in both PA and CT, and the labor laws are completely different in each state. In PA, laws favor the employer completely, and an employee can basically be fired at any time, for any reason. It's just the opposite in CT, where worker's rights are protected much more.

Without knowing, I would suspect that Mass. law is similar to CT.

[Maat]

8. Great letter.

I wonder if you shouldn't send a copy to each board member of the corporation (the Board of Directors). They get things done.

[Debi]

10. Great letter...one question

Was she and at will employee? If so she's not entitled to any sort of severance package beyond filing for unemployment benefits which the company can fight against if they feel she was fired for insubordination or any sort of wanton willful neglect of the duties she was hired to perform (and theft, but I'm assuming that THAT wasn't the case). :shrug:

Why not just file for unemployment and move on?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. My dear Will.....

GREAT letter! You're kicking some very serious ass here.....

Your girlfriend is most fortunate to have you on her side......

If you will, please let us know what happens down the road......

I'm sure it will make for most interesting reading! And hopefully, gratifying reading too!

[GardeningGal]

13. Great letter

She also might want to check to see if you have a complaint process in the Massachusett's Civil Rights division. In our state, you can download forms and document the situation and send them for review.

In the meantime, I hope she's able to find something new that she enjoys.

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. Take that Job and Shove It!

Well that foreman, hes a regular dog
The line boss, hes a fool
Got a brand new flat-top haircut
Lord, he thinks hes cool
One of these days, Im gonna blow my top
And that sucker, hes gonna pay
Lord I cant wait to see their faces
When I get up the nerve to say

Take this job and shove it
I ain't working here no more
My woman done left and took all the reasons
I was working for
You better not try to stand in my way
As im a walking out the door.
Take this job and shove it
I ain't working here no more

...

Take this job and shove it

[philosophie_en_rose]

15. .

:shrug:

[Metta]

16. I'm kvelling over that letter.

Well done! I shall ask the universe to intercede in her behalf. :thumbsup: :donut:

[fishnfla]

18. Will, I thought you knew how to play poker

Dont let anyone see your cards until the game has been called: Take the last 2 names off the receipient list

Let their bosses play the hand

[Puglover]

19. Great letter...

but too long, too wordy. Upper management are an arrogant lot. It won't be taken seriously. At the risk of (it's none of your fuckin business Pug) I think she should go in personally once she has cooled off and try to speak with someone who can do something. I work for a large company and believe me face to face meetings are taken more seriously.

[bridgit]

20. how much of it do you think they actually read...

[pitohui]

21. nothing good can come of this

you g/f should have consulted w. an attorney, not written this letter

if she decides to litigate now, her attorney is going to tell her to imagine the impact of being asked by the plaintiff's attorney to have to read that letter in front of a jury

she will look like a ranting shew

when you have been a victim of injustice, for the love of god, don't start putting all kinds of wild crap in writing, see an attorney, you just made any potential attorney's job that much harder if not impossible

and there's no way now that she'll get a reference from this job, she may be blackballed from her industry

letters once mailed belong to the receiver and the bosses, managers, etc. can pass it around freely

would you hire someone who wrote a letter like that? honestly?

[ohiosmith]

28. Excellent points.

[JuniperLea]

23. As much as I love, love, love that letter...

She may have just shot herself in the foot. I worked for "King HR" at a major financial institution for nearly eight years (over 2k employees in our location alone) and I know without asking that had he ever received such a letter, the only thing that person would get in way of a reference is yes she worked here and she made $X... and that's it, the bare legal minimum.

Sometimes an axe without explanation is better than getting one, and what may have been a good reference is now trashed. The fire-ee in an unexplained firing can generally write their own exit "excuse" and that will go far in getting another job. I'm pretty sure she will get name, rank and serial number from this employer. Regardless of the legitimacy of her complaints, this is going to sound like sour grapes to anyone that matters.

I have no doubt her complaints are valid, don't misunderstand, please! And I'm sure she feels much better for the rant. But I seriously doubt it will help her at all... and it is more likely than not to do harm. I wish it weren't true! I am such a huge fan of yours, Will, that I hate to say anything at all... but given my experience, my POV can easily be adjusted to HR mode. And the hackles of my HR neck stood up when I read this. If the people she mentions are half as inept and shallow as she shows here... ouch!

I really hate to say anything, but I'm compelled by some lingering HR DNA I suppose. Please don't shoot the messenger!

[WilliamPitt]

42. She's covered six ways from Sunday on references

There are a dozen current and former employees of this company who would walk through fire for her. She will get a long list of excellent references. There are many ways around HR fuckasses.

Page two unfolds tomorrow, when the attorney contacts them.

[JuniperLea]

54. HR fuckasses

Wow man. Thanks... Just trying to help.

[WilliamPitt]

63. Nothing personal

But I have had my own dealings with HR people. All too often, I have found them to be utterly cold-blodded. There have been exceptions, but those have been few and far between.

[JuniperLea]

68. Well, I have a reputation

As being fair, honest and extremely diplomatic in HR concerns and MY experience is that there are assholes at every level and in every group of people no matter where you want to draw social lines. I have not found an exorbitantly large amount of assholes in the HR field within the companies for whom I've worked. And I'm talking HUGE corporations here... AIG... SunAmerica... etc. That, and a glowing reference from someone who reported directly to me is what landed me my great new gig with a major PR firm.

You can't burn your bridges in corporate America and expect anyone to hire you.

This isn't US government politics where people have the right to question their leaders. Most corporations are operating under "at will" employment conditions and can fire you for no reason at all; employment is at the discretion of the employer, period. Unless you are an executive with a massive contract and a "golden umbrella" release clause, you can't expect much.

What your past employers say about you can make or break your career... for life.

Employment laws, for the most part, are governed by the state. Had it been me, I would have done a hell of a lot of research before I reacted with a scathing fuck-you letter. Some states will turn that around so it bites you in the ass... she could be sued for that letter. I hope that's not the case in the state where that company does business but it is certainly true in Los Angeles.

All that being said, I'll be interested to hear what the lawyer has to say. One way or another, I expect it will influence the thoughts I tend to file under "letters I've written, never meaning to send".

[ohiosmith]

24. It is, unfortunately, a "fuck-you" letter. Too bad. With more thought

and less anger she may have gotten what she wants.

[WindRavenX]

25. how is this a "fuck-you" letter??

There's no ad hominem attacks, no desire for revenge, no childish whining-- all she has made are fair demands.

[JuniperLea]

26. Erm... Because Will Pitt ( the OP) said it was?

I don't know... just asking:)

[WindRavenX]

30. but it's not really

It's written very deliberately and in control-- this letter in no way fits as a "fuck you" letter.

[ohiosmith]

31. Take it up with the OP. I agree with him.

[JuniperLea]

33. Oh, it is very much a fuck-you letter, imho

I've read many having worked for the head of HR in a major corporation for many years. Yep. Fuck you alright. Controlled and well written, yes indeed. Loved it. I doubt it will get the desired result though. Fuck you letters rarely do.

[ohiosmith]

27. Will's own words. Who are we to question his description?

My girlfriend just lost her job, and we wrote the best fuck-you letter...

[JuniperLea]

29. I agree

Oh, I've written my share of fuck-you letters! But I've never mailed any in the original draft;)

It's like counting to ten when you want to say something very nasty to someone.

[graywarrior]

32. Sounds like a better version of my resignation letter from

Goodwill and sounds like the same thing that happened to me and is now happening to a friend of mine (who's husband is a lawyer).

That is a great letter. Wish I had had you to write mine.

[Robb]

34. Will, I made a few edits:

I have just returned from a meeting with ******** store managers Ms. A and Ms. B, in which I was informed that my services with the company are no longer required. Absolutely no explanation for this decision was given, despite my repeated attempts to extract one.

I have been a faithful employee of this company for more than three years, serving as assistant manager of the ********* location for the last year. Since I know where you all live, I intend to set your vehicles alight, shave your cats, and every month for the next sixteen years send a post-corn-chowder poop certified delivery to your parents.

cc: Important Boss P
Important Boss Q
Area Manager Z
Ms. A
Ms. B

[Blue_Tires]

35. ttt n/t

[sendero]

37. I think..

... the letter is professional and clear. I hope your friend gets what she asked for, which IMHO is modest.

Please keep us informed of developments, these stories are so damn juicy :)

[Telly Savalas]

39. ******* is spelled with an "e"

[area51]

41. g/f

I'm sorry this happened to your g/f. Unfortunately it seems like way too much of management tends to get filled w/psychos. It's scary. I hope that your g/f will get a decent severance package. I wish you & her all the best.

[question everything]

43. If you, or your gf, think that any manager will take the time to read

this long letter I have a bridge to sell you.

Rest assure that the manages above are aware of the personalities and of the conflicts of the people involved and chose not to take action of any kind.

And managers today are too busy to read long letters of any kind.

As for her demand: if her state is "at will" one, she has no leg to stand demanding an explanation for her termination (been there, more than once)

If the employee handbook does not detail severance package, then none will be offered.

The only thing she is entitled is pay for her accumulated vacation days, but she'd better check with the employment agency of her state.

Don't count on the AG to get involved. Again, if her state is of employment "at will" and if she was not part of a union bargaining she cannot demand anything. Too many people get fired every day for no reason.

It is too bad that so many people here cheer this letter. They know nothing about the business world as neither do you nor your gf. If you've encouraged her you have done her a disservice. She will have hard time finding a similar job. Plus, as a general rule, one does not burn bridges no matter what. Unless one chooses to stop working for someone else.

If not too late, you'd better retract this letter quickly.

[wildhorses]

44. I agree with you, q e

also gf should go to the unemployment office and sign up against said company. If judgement is found in her favor she can sign up against this company and draw a check while looking for another job.

[question everything]

46. Yes, of course

If the company challenges the request for unemployment benefits it will have to state so.. at least this way gf will find out why. And she can have the office of the unemployment insurance fights her battle - with more experience and with a better knowledge of the law and in general providing a buffer.

[JuniperLea]

57. And as for the references

Unless they are supervisors or managers, they won't count for much. Peer references are cool, but competition is fierce out there and you really need supervisor references... or references from people who reported directly to you... that was the clincher in my landing my current gig.

And if you go into interviews dissing your last employer, kiss the interview goodbye.

But what do I know? I'm just an HR fuckass.


:shrug:

[question everything]

100. The first time we lost our jobs, the company paid for

some of those consulting jobbies to help us write a resume and how to go about looking for another job (this was one of those RIF, so there were no hurt feelings, at least not from the employer).

And one thing that the trainer said was: HR may not be able to help you, but it can hurt you. Thus, like million employees across the country we do not have high opinion of HR people, but we've always treated them with respect :evilgrin:

I think that you gave an excellent response above and I really think that neither Will nor his g/f have been around in the business world, in the employer-employee situation.

Some years later again I was laid off when business took a nose dive. But I was polite to everyone and a year later there was an opening of a more interesting position and they called me back.

[Karenca]

65. You've said exactly what I meant to say in my too-short post below

That letter is placing alot of "self-importance" on an assistant manager job in retail sales.
She should have just asked for her vacation pay and applied for unemployment benefits, instead of writing a threatening letter. The attorney general is not going to get involved (does she realize how many people lose their job every day?), and she's probably ruined her chance of getting a recommendation from the company.

Losing a job sucks, but writing such an emotional letter like that makes her sound like she is either very young or hysterical.

[question everything]

101. As others say: write the letter but don't send it ;-)

[Digit]

45. Can you threaten in a letter w/o possible consequences?

I thought you had to really walk on eggshells in that area, but then again, I don't know diddley about the law.

BTW, sorry this happened to her...it stinks to be fired for no reason.

[mconvente]

47. Is it even a reall letter?

I see a "cc" in the "who you're sending it to". That's an email, which will be disregarded even quicker than a handwritten or typed letter...

[Old and In the Way]

48. Ah, maybe I'm showing my age here, but in the "old days" before

e-mail, that's exactly how cc's were handled in business correspondence. The term "cc" means carbon copy. Before copiers (yep, I remember those days, too), we used carbon sheets between copies when letters were output on devices called typewriters. The "cc" list was located at the bottom of the letter.

And it is particularly effective when the whole chain of players are copied. Ms. A is really going to have a bad day when she reads this missive. :-)

I do think you are correct with your observation that business e-mails, don't carry the same attention letters do. Probably because of the shear volume of them today. When I started in business, 80% of the time was verbal communication and 20% written. Today, I think it's trending the other way.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. You are not showing your age...or we both are. I think of cc in terms of a

written letter, not an email. Wow...that's kind of like my daughter's friend not knowing who John Wayne is. :)

[mconvente]

97. haha at least i know that!

Ok, just clarifying things. I always use something good ole' fashioned "cc"s cant do - a "bcc" - ah, i love them in emails!

[WilliamPitt]

64. Um...

The cc: thing has been around in legal letters for decades. Before I ever heard of emails, when I was a paralegal working in litigation firms, I was cc:ing everyone. All it means is you make an extra copy of the letter and mail it to other people.

[benny05]

49. It's Good to Get It Off the Chest

But your GF may find it tougher to find another position of managerial or higher status. Companies talk to one another. I wrote such letters, but kept them to myself--so it was more like a diary.

[calico1]

74. I agree.

I have written some nasty letters. Felt good. But they never got mailed. You are correct. You never know who knows who. Its a small world and burning your bridges is not usually a good choice. Never that I have personally known of. I hope this does not affect her future job prospects.

[benny05]

81. Are those your kitties?

In your avatar?

The orange and white one looks a lot like my Benson. My other cat wears a tuxedo.

[calico1]

82. Those are two of my six kitties.

Tabitha is the gray one, Quincy is the orange one. :hi:

[benny05]

86. Love it! Do you have other pics of Kitties for the DU Lounge?

We love the kitties there!

[calico1]

87. I will post a kitty thread soon.

I have 6 of them plus a Rottie gal.:)

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. Will, to combat the naysayers: My father did the exact same thing when he

was let go from Stroh Brewing Co. (along with half of America) back in '89. He wrote the letter, they capitulated with a handsome severance package and paid vacation days...And, more importantly, he now works for a major 1st Tier Supplier to the automotive industry. No foot shooting, just accountability demanded and received. There are always going to be naysayers. Good for your girlfriend. I am sure she has a future in management in front of her. The letter was well worded and thought out, and she backed herself up.

[bridgit]

53. i've read this letter a couple times now and my take on it remains...

the same, it is not so paralegal; as it is a cobbled broach trending toward the pseudo-legal the gist of which may-could have been conveyed with mo-better concision may-haps with somewhere less than half the words i.e.

"Meet my demands in a timely fashion, and I will happily move on with my life and pursuits. Failure to do so, however, will result in significant legal difficulties for this organization in general, and the ************** store specifically."

where...

'Stand! Deliver, or Die! Tyrant!'

will suffice even a writer's folly...methinks :-)

[Karenca]

55. Why didn't she just ask for her vacation pay

when she wa fired?
She could have asked for severance pay then too, but in retail sales you are not going to get a huge package.

[AussieDave]

56. Interesting !! Well worth a shot, but whether she gets anywhere

is another matter - I sure hope she does.

Please keep us informed of the next exciting episodes - I wanna see how this turns out !!!

[novalib]

58. Some Advice

First, my sympathy to your girlfriend in losing her job.

And, a "good on you" for beiong a supportive boyfriend.

One piece of advice that I hope you and your girlfriend will find useful:

Put this episode in the past as soon as you can.

Don't let your girlfriend's termination "rule" you or her.

It happened. Spend your energy on time focusing on the future and on good things -- NOT on the terrible store and the people who mistreated her.

Put the past in the past, and move on.

Easy for me to say. But hard, I know, to do.

[Sammy Pepys]

60. It's a great read, and I love it....

...but I sure hope it doesn't affect her chances of landing another job. In my experience, if a "Fuck You" letter tends to be particularly irksome or over the top a former employer won't hesitate to share it with others. I've seen former managers of mine take sheer joy in providing letters (and one case, an admittedly clever homemade comic strip) like this to folks thinking of hiring people they fired at one point when they're contacted from the prospective employer about that person.

On the other hand, I've seen "Fuck You" letters simply thrown in the trash and ignored.

[raccoon]

61. There are a lot of psycho, abusive, bullying managers out there.

Any of you out there, if you have to work for other people, I suggest you do an Internet search on "workplace bullying" and read up on it, if you haven't already.

Tim Fields, a Brit who's done a lot to bring workplace bullying to the public's awareness, said that the main function of HR was to keep the employer out of court.

[skygazer]

66. Well, in my opinion it's way too long

With too much redundant detail. Which makes it sound more like a "she said this and then I said that" kind of letter than a business letter. I would have kept it short and concise myself.

At any rate, bummer that it happened. Good luck.

[Joe Chi Minh]

69. Like most if not all the nay-saying posters here, I am not legally

trained. However, Finnfan's post #38 strikes me as authoritative, unlike those who claim she shot herself in the foot.

The fact is that, however prolix the letter, it enunciated a great deal of subtantive information, both in terms of what had occurred, and in terms of the legal consequences for the company if it failed to meet certain legal requisites, which it had previously neglected. So, assuming that the latter are indeed applicable in this case, if the CEO and other directors and/or managers throw the letter away without further ado, it will be their loss and the company's.

From work I used to do as a translator, I am aware that, for the most part, the law, like engineering, tends to be quite mechanistic, with hooks on which the mechanics of the law relies for its operation as a machine on cogs. The jargon, of course, is important, but the literary style is a total irrelevance. Indeed, when dealing with patents, for example, a paragraph covering more than a full page is not uncommon, since the substantive meanings expressed are paramount, and considerations of literary style could well be detrimental to that clarity.

All of Mr Fitzgerald's work with the grand juries and the Neocon rogues and vagabonds ensued from just such a simple set of "cogs" - precisely in the way in which a DU poster had predicted. I think it might have been H2O Man.

Whoever it was, said that in order to get a legal grip of Bushco, precisely some kind of nitty-gritty legal "hook" as the outing of Mrs Valerie Plame was necessary. Even juggernauts such as the Watergate scandal have to begin with just such a "hook".

[JuniperLea]

75. Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is based on eight years of HR experience hiring and firing and accepting the resignations of hundreds of people, from hiring of high level executives to receptionists, and dealing with hundreds of employee relations issues in several nationwide and worldwide corporations. If that didn't come through in my post, my bad.

You can't burn your bridges in corporate America without seriously impacting your career. Period.

[Joe Chi Minh]

89. Well, the question of whose is the greater authority in this matter

may be a conundrum for me, but there is obviously no doubt that I am at a significant remove from possessing any authority on the matter. I can only hope that your opinion fails to take account of particular factors involved in this case, that the other poster factored in.

[JuniperLea]

92. I hope I'm completely wrong...

I don't think so. But there is always hope. :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. My father was and remains unscathed for standing up for his rights.

Your eight years of experience do not dictate what the rest of corporate America does...or does not do. As my previous post stated, he fought for his severance and vacation in this exact manner, won and went on to an even more prestigious job.

[JuniperLea]

91. In 1989, right?

I'm not "dictating" to anyone. I'm just saying what I know to be true from experience in working in HR nationwide since 1996. A lot has changed since 1989 and the main thing is this is probably an "at will" employment. Most retail is these days unless you are in a union. It doesn't sound as if this person is in a union.

I'm all for a person standing up for their rights... but they need to be sure what those rights are before they make a move. Maybe your dad knew his rights, I don't know; you didn't elaborate.

In 1979 an employer fired me for being pregnant. That can't happen now. I filed a complaint and was part of the focus group that got the labor laws changed. Had they just fired me without saying it was because I was pregnant, I wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing because my employment was "at will".

I didn't get severance either. But I'm happy how the whole deal turned out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

93. Does that really matter? I find it funny you say that when corporate

conditions are an almost exact mirror of conditions then. :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

94. I edited my post... and no, they are not the same.

Much of what I did all those years was to update our law books. On a monthly basis there were anywhere between 10 and 100 changes. No, the laws are no where near what they were in 1989.

[ScreamingMeemie]

95. You updated law books for all 50 states? That must have kept you

pretty busy. I'm sorry if I sound snide, but many advisors (I know this from working in Human Resources for a major bank in 1990-95) suggest employees do exactly what Will and his girlfriend did. You cannot possibly tell what the outcome of this will be. Neither can I...but I'd be willing to place a bet in Vegas she gets what she is looking for. :)

[JuniperLea]

96. Yes.... and some for England and Japan as well

Electronically, that is. It's not like I had to sit and remove/replace pages like in the old days!

And yes, you came across snide as fucking hell, btw.

I have never, ever heard an HR executive suggest such a thing... not even an HR Generalist! That is absolutely absurd.

The proof is in the pudding.

[ScreamingMeemie]

98. I did not say an "HR" Executive... Many times, when let go, people

hire consultants to help them through the process of receiving benefits. As an HR assistant (ah, lowly me) I dealt with many job loss consultants in processing these requests. It's really not uncommon. For you to think this is some crazy action is what is absurd...if you are in Human Resources.

I think I come across as just snider, personally. We get what we give. As for "fucking hell"...I wouldn't know, I've never been there personally. I'll let you know when I get there.

[bridgit]

102. it seems as though it might, without casting aspersion onto your father...

for his ability to 'stand up for his rights', there is, as a mere for instance, a far higher likelihood that matters so far afield as your medical records, and whether you had a timely, full panel drug test after dropping a palette of product off the forks of a forklift in this advanced computer business environ of 2006.

"almost exact mirror of conditions", maybe only if you consider the occasional fun-house mirror as well :shrug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

105. I'm going to go with his view. He has been employable for 45 years

and experienced both time frames. Conditions here mirror exactly conditions then. :shrug:

[bridgit]

109. it can be often difficult to admit that things have by & large changed...

for a vast majority of the work force in america 2006; hubby's dad has worked for the same construction company for well over 55yrs contiguously as, primarily, a diesel mechanic, they have purchased on his behalf a little 10 acre parcel on the inheritor of the family company's land, with a structure he is able to remodel & upgrade to his specs, carry his medical & vision, all while providing a pension plus expense' for his pursuits in retirement...but that simply does not happen to everyone these days

"exactly" as it pertains to your father may well be the case, but as a practical matter 'exactly' is simply not sustainable vis-a-vis the post which was the genus here imo; though i do appreciate your view on the matter

[Common Sense Party]

110. WAY too long, too verbose, too Roget's thesaurus.

Say what you gotta say, get in, get out. Nobody likes padded prose.

[riderinthestorm]

70. Great letter but as an "important boss" (and the owner), I'd laugh.

Sorry Will but this kind of letter gets filed in the round file.

The best that might come of it would be if one of the important bosses calls the store and gets on Ms. A's ass about being an ass. But beyond that, not much will happen. Especially if you live in an "at will" state.

You and your gf are extremely resourceful however, and I am guessing you are righteously outraged - perhaps you can force some action. I would love a follow-up on what goes down.

Good luck (and I don't mean that snarkily).

[grace0418]

73. I wrote and sent a letter like that once.

The circumstances were a little different. I had been hired to work for a company, given an approximate starting date (so I quit my other job), then completely blown off for weeks. I went into a panic because I was not at a point in my life where I had any kind of financial cushion. I had interviewed with and been hired by the vice president and department manager of the company, but when I called (repeatedly) to speak with them they blew me off. When I finally got through to one of them they stammered something about how the president of the company wasn't sure he wanted to hire me.

This completely floored me because I had been offered a job. Not a second interview, not a "we'll call you, but things look really good". A JOB. At this point I decided that not only was the job lost but I no longer wanted to work for this company. So I sat down to write a long letter. I told them that were dishonest and had a severe lack of professional ethics, not to mention common decency. And that I may have been merely a candidate for an entry level position but that I knew better than to ever treat anyone like that. I went on for quite awhile, but won't bore you with all the details.

I sent the letter and went back to my job search, which took on a new desperation. Two days later, I received a phone call from the president of the company I had just written. He and I spoke for over an hour. I have no idea what came over me because normally I have a hard time with one on one confrontation, especially when I'm defending myself (as opposed to standing up for someone else). But I was able to stand my ground with him and tell him the complete truth. I had no fear. He repeatedly and humbly apologized. He then begged me to come work for him (he liked my "pluck") and from that point on I was his star.

I should say that my initial instinct ("this is a horrible place to work") was absolutely correct. The president was suffering from Parkinsons, schizophrenia, and OCD and it showed. He was a mess, and the rest of his staff focused almost exclusively on trying to guess what he was going to do next. Luckily for him, he was considered a "creative genius" so his business made millions. I however, wouldn't put up with his crap and he really appreciated me for it. That didn't stop him from firing me three years later for no apparent reason, but that was 2.5 years longer than anyone else had lasted in that position. In the end, that job got me into a field I enjoy, so I have no regrets.

[Joe Chi Minh]

106. Great story, and fascinating in its outlandishness.

He must have meant well, when he was on an even keel.

[SiobhanClancy]

85. I got fired in Massachusetts..

I was an assistant manager at a retail store owned by a subsidiary of Boston University. I had worked there nearly three years,and two weeks before had recieved my annual evaluation with a $3000 raise. There was an accident in the store due to construction work being done by an outside contractor,and since the manager had called in sick that day,I got to be the scapegoat. I had a number of people who spoke for me,including the Assistant Dean of students and a couple of professors, all to no avail. I recieved my last check including vacation pay,which I believe is the legal requirement. As an "at will" employee with no contract I had little legal recourse. The director of operations even tried to prevent me from getting unemployment,but in that matter I was the winner.
I really hope this situation has a better ending than mine.

[intrepid_wanderer]

99. in a word...

ugh.

[Robbie Michaels]

103. That Was A Great Letter

Will, was your girlfriend an "at-will" employee? I'm curious because here in California, companies are really big on "at-will" employment agreements and they can be used to get rid of you for any reason and without warning.

I lost my job last October and my politics may have played a role; I was the only person in the office that wasn't a Republican and I made a few shit lists for my views on the Bush administration's handling of the Hurricane Katrina situation and other issues last summer. I was one of their top performers, I slipped up one month and they canned me. :tinfoilhat:

Unemployment is a bitch, not to mention a blow to your ego if you've never been fired before. However, it's not the end of the world. Despite the stigma of working for three companies within thirteen months, I had no problem finding another job. With my background and accomplishments, I had my choice between four job offers within a week. If your girlfriend is marketable, she'll probably have the same luck I did.

My story has a happy ending. I work for a well-known company that treats me with respect and I'm already establishing myself as one of their best employees. My new job also came with an unexpected perk: the friendship of several progressive coworkers. :woohoo: :grouphug:

I hope your girlfriend's situation has a happy ending like mine. Keep us posted.

[Joe Chi Minh]

107. We in the UK and US should be like the French: "at-will" rioters!

They don't stand for that kind of wage-slavery, do they! Casual workers. I don't know about now, but casual workers had to be paid more, because of the uncertainty of their employment.

[JuniperLea]

104. Any word back from the lawyer?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Laurab]

111. I wrote one years ago - 1996 I think

cc'd a bunch of really important people. It WILL be read, because everyone will want to know what the other people are reading. Mine didn't affect my ability to be employed at all - I had lots of references from the place, and what happened to me was extremely unfair. I never had a problem getting another job - although I doubt that particular place would invite me back.

However, it DID result in the big boss retiring far earlier than he had planned, and the other person, who I refer to as the "devil", who caused me to lose my job well, she has no control over anyone anymore, and there are a whole bunch of grateful people in the place I used to work.

The funniest thing was they thought I had someone helping me. Someone important. It was just lil ol pissed off me. I've never regretted writing it, in fact, I'm quite proud.

Good luck!

[Seabiscuit]

112. Will's girlfriend needs to talk to a seasoned labor law attorney.

While the claim for vacation time pay is clearly meritorious, the demand for a written explanation and the demand for a severance package are not. She should not be encouraged to find some hack who will file a frivolous lawsuit on her behalf with respect to the latter claims. She'd be wasting her time and money and she'd lose.

It appears very clear that there was an oral "at-will" employment agreement, rather than a written "for cause" employment agreement. In "at-will" employment, either party may terminate the employment at any time for any reason, including a bad reason, or no reason at all and without any notice at all. An employer firing an employee in an "at-will" relationship owes no explanation for the firing, certainly not one in writing. And such an employee is not entitled to any benefits at all, certainly not a severance package.

This is not to imply that she should not feel outraged or express her outrage as she has in the letter. It's a good thing she's notified higher management of the problems she encountered at her store.