Language separates humans from the animals? You may have to think again.

[Mutley]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.quark27apr27,0,7108036.story

Birds shown to follow grammar
By Ronald Kotulak
Originally published April 27, 2006

CHICAGO // Scientists are running out of things they think truly separate humans from other animals. For a long time the reigning difference was thought to be tool-making, but then they discovered that chimpanzees and gorillas use tools.

One of the last bastions of human uniqueness, they surely thought, is language. Although animals can communicate, it was thought to be in only a fixed way - using sequences of sounds with specific meanings that never vary.

Humans supposedly were different because they can follow rules of grammar. For example, people can interrupt a sequence of sounds to add new ones, altering the meaning and allowing an infinite variety of expression. The sentence "my dog has fleas" can change to "my dog, who answers to the name of Murray and has a black, shiny coat, has fleas."

Well, guess what. European starlings can do that, too, according to a report in yesterday's issue of the journal Nature by researchers from the University of Chicago and the University of California, San Diego.

(more at link)

[_testify_]

1. We must declare war on European starlings.

They are obviously up to no good.

[Mutley]

2. You're right.

They'll just challenge everything we believe about everything. That can't be good. :D

[_testify_]

3. I'll get to work on the protest signs.

[Mutley]

4. Be sure to compare starlings to everything evil in the world.

[BikeWriter]

6. Why do starlings hate America?

:shrug:

[Mutley]

7. Because of our freedoms, silly.

!

[BikeWriter]

19. Oh, of course, you're right.

:blush:

[Mutley]

20. I'll just chalk that one up to a brainfart and move along.

:P

[BikeWriter]

34. That's very kind of you.

:pals:

[Mutley]

35. I do try my best.

[BikeWriter]

36. You do it so well. :-)

[Mutley]

37. Flattery will get you

everywhere. :7

[BikeWriter]

38. Speaking of which, have you noticed your post count?

[Mutley]

39. Uh oh.

How should I commemorate this occasion?

[BikeWriter]

40. Start a new thread!

:party:

[Mutley]

41. Brilliant!

I just need to make one more post so my new thread will be an even 10,000.

[BikeWriter]

42. K, you're about to become a real DU veteran! :-)

[Mutley]

43. Woohoo!!!!

:applause:

[pitohui]

88. a starling inspired mozart

our world will be less when they are gone, and they are already disappearing from europe

[realisticphish]

68. I don't know

which is worse... African or European?

I don't know that :shrug:
:D

[billyskank]

5. No, free market economics is what separates us from that animals

Some people call it the law of the jungle, but I'm telling ya, the jungle didn't invent that shit! ;)


:hi: mutley!!

[Mutley]

8. You're right, billy.

You should write a paper on the subject. You could be the envy of all those scientists who've been dying to separate us all this time.

:D

:hi: Good to see you today.

[billyskank]

9. Oh, that and animals don't get paid for putting on a suit and talking shit

on the telly and never getting called on it when everything they say turns out to be wrong. Animals wouldn't stand for that shit. Ergo, we are the most dumb.

:dunce:

Good to see you too, mutley! :hug:

[Mutley]

10. See, you're just full of brilliant ideas.

:P

:hug:

[billyskank]

11. I'm on a roll today

:7



:loveya:

[Mutley]

12. You'll have to teach me how to do that one of these days.

:loveya: too!

[billyskank]

13. LOL

Okay :hug:



If I can remember how

[Mutley]

15. What were we talking about?

:P

[billyskank]

16. I have no idea

:rofl:

[Mutley]

18. Me either.

Who are you again?




Alright, forgive me... I've been reading "Waiting for Godot". x(

[leftofthedial]

14. the only thing that separates humans from animals

is our own arrogance

[Mutley]

17. That sounds like a good one.

Are there any other species of animals capable of arrogance the way humans are? Something to ponder.

[Beware the Beast Man]

21. Starfish are right bastards.

:)

[Mutley]

22. Are they, now?

Well then, I'll just get testify to add them to the protest signs. :D

[Tyrone Slothrop]

23. I dunno

I used to have a cat who was pretty damn smug.

[Mutley]

33. I've known several very smug cats.

But is that arrogance?

[EstimatedProphet]

45. Trout can be elitist

[Mutley]

46. Can you prove that claim, Mister?

:D

[EstimatedProphet]

48. Yeah, they never call me anymore

[Mutley]

50. Maybe you were mean to them.

[EstimatedProphet]

52. I FED THEM!

All day long I fed them, and cleaned up after them-and this is how they repay me!

[Mutley]

55. Well, you have to let the kids go out on their own eventually.

:D

[pitohui]

89. cats EOM

,

[YankeyMCC]

24. Sounds like a new species to add to the next

"Threat Down" ;)

We can't risk them organizing the bears.

[Mutley]

25. Someone write to Steve Colbert!!

:7

[Ravenseye]

26. Um...We ARE animals.

What's with all this trying to separate us from the animals. Guess what folks? We're animals. There is no hardline separation. We eat sleep shit live fuck and die like all the rest. We just do it in nicer houses.

[Mutley]

27. I know this, however

humans have been trying to separate us for who knows how long now.

[Ravenseye]

30. Yeah but my point is that it's meaningless

To draw a distinction would imply we aren't animals.

What makes me not an animal? Well, nothing. I AM an animal. What makes me different from animals? Well, nothing, as I AM an animal. What makes me different from all other animals? Maybe that we feel a need to make the distinction?

[Mutley]

31. I personally don't feel the need to make the distinction

but perhaps as far as humans as a whole it has something to do with religion. Or the arrogance spoken of upthread.

[billyskank]

32. Social climbers

;)

[EstimatedProphet]

28. Birds also have regional dialects

Bird calls vary slightly depending on the sub-population.

[Mutley]

29. That I didn't know.

Interesting. Does it really vary by region as human language does? Or is there some other factor?

[EstimatedProphet]

44. Well, animal populations break down into sub-populations by region

pretty much because they are limited in range for breeding-so the sub-populations form naturally. Because the birds (in this example) interact within their subpopulation extensively, they begin to diverge slightly from the population as a whole, so that you end up with a population of birds that can be recognized as the same species, but with subgroups that are still distinct from the general population. Bird call dailect is one of those ways. It varies by region, because the sub-populations begin to become distinct by region.

[Mutley]

47. That makes a lot of sense but it's not something I would have thought

on my own. My linguist professor would love talking about that.

[EstimatedProphet]

49. It's an interesting idea, isn't it?

It implies that human dialects and accents may also be a biological trend, not just sociological.

[Mutley]

51. Well, we just started doing transitional grammar

where they talk about the human capacity for language being innate instead of learned. Perhaps dialect is the same.

[KamaAina]

53. Huh? Koko the gorilla knows at least 1,000 words of American Sign Language

the country's third or fourth most widely used language, depending on the source.

By contrast, KamaAina the high, mighty human knows perhaps a couple of hundred signs, and is said to be one of the better (hearing) signers here at an office which serves people with disabilities, including deafness. "Congratulations, KamaAina, that puts you at the top of the Delta pledge class!"

[anarch]

54. "Scientists have discovered that even monkeys

can memorize 10 numbers! Are you stupider than a monkey?"



"Ehhh...How big of a monkey?"

[Mutley]

62. Well, we discussed Koko while discussing the article...

and many people in the class who believe animals are a lower lifeform said Koko is doing nothing more than imitating the humans. :eyes: I think I know three signs.

[KamaAina]

75. "Fine animal gorilla"

I read that a journalist wondered the same thing, and asked Koko, "Are you a human or an animal?" Koko signed, "Fine animal gorilla". Stick a fork in that imitating-the-humans theory; it's done.

[Mutley]

76. I'll have to mention that to said skeptics.

[femmedem]

77. My parents' African Grey parrot, Bongo, usually calls my Mom by her

name, Peggy. But when she feeds him something unusually tasty, he calls her Peggybird. She considers it a promotion.

[Neoma]

56. Awesome.

Dr. Doolittle kinda thing ain't it?

[Mutley]

57. Well... a professor of mine did tell a story about a friend of his

who claims he can understand what the birds are saying. That's either a Dr. Doolittle kinda thing, or a straitjacket kinda thing. :D

[Neoma]

59. All of the above.

Ha!

[Mutley]

61. ...

:rofl:

[Neoma]

65. Psst.

My welcome back thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5086792

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. OK so if they have language that really does put the notion to rest

that they know not just to shit on a car, but to shit on the freshly WASHED car.

Interesting article and it really demonstrates some of the arrogance of science past. I remember a few years back when science finally admitted that animals have complex emotions. All along assertions were made out of whole cloth rather than scientific scrutiny.

[Mutley]

60. Well, they shit on our cars, freshly washed or otherwise, because they

like to mess with us. Bastards! :D

I'd just like to know when science will stop trying to separate us from the animals and realize we are animals. Perhaps more intelligent in our own way, more clever with tools and the like, certainly much more destructive, but animals nonetheless.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Kurt Vonnegut already figured it out. Read Galapagos :)

but, really, I think birds give each other extra points for finding the freshly washed cars :D

[Mutley]

69. I wonder who is winning.

:o

[El Fuego]

63. There is an article about parrots in this month's Scientic American Mind

There are laboratory parrots who truly communicate using language. Researchers have found they have real cognitive understanding of the words they use. It is a truly fascinating article.

In one instance, a grey parrot who knew the words for various colors saw himself in the mirror for the first time.

He asked his trainer "What color?" She was shocked and when she composed herself she replied "Grey. You are a grey parrot." And from then on he understood what grey was.

[femmedem]

66. My parents have an Africa Grey parrot who knows what he's saying.

If you ask him what he wants for breakfast he'll tell you, "peanuts... crackers...grapes..."

He says some very abstract things, too. Once he fell in the pool. As he was splashing around, he said, "What's this?"

When my dad went away on business, the bird walked all around the house for days, asking, "Where's Mel?"

[El Fuego]

67. Wow. It really makes you think about

the way human society treats the animals who share the planet with us.

[laheina]

79. Very true!

But animal lovers have known that for a long time. :hi:

[Mutley]

74. I saw a documentary on an African Grey who actually knew language

instead of just imitating it. They'd ask him to pick up a ball or a rope, etc, and he'd get the right one every time.

[femmedem]

78. You're talking about Alex! Alex understands the concept of zero.

Also, people have been teaching Alex to read. Right now, they're working on the sounds of the alphabet.

"What is this sound?" the researcher will ask, showing Alex the letter "S." "Sssss" says Alex. When Alex gives the correct answer, the researcher gives him a nut. But one time, while working on letter sounds, the researcher was in a hurry and didn't bother. "Want a nut," Alex reminded him. But the researcher asked him another question instead. Alex answered, then said, "Want a nut." But the researcher asked yet another question. Alex answered, then said, "Want a nut. Nnnn....uhhh....t"

[laheina]

80. Wow! I'm learning some good stuff today.

And most of it would have been disagreeable to the prof from whom I took Philosophy of Language. :crazy:

I'll have to remember about Alex. :hi:

[AlienGirl]

83. There's Alex, and then there's N'kisi, who's just plain spooky

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3430481.stm

[femmedem]

85. Thanks! I hadn't heard of N'kisi.

I'll send the link to my folks.

Regarding N'kisi's sense of humour: Bongo, my folks' bird, might not be humorous, but he can be sneaky. If he really, really doesn't like you, he'll say, "Give me a kiss...give me a kiss..." until you do. Then he'll bite you on the lip. (Or so they heard from the veterinarian's assistant.)

I read in a NYTimes magazine article a long time ago about a primate--can't remember what kind--that would go to a window, communicate that something exciting was going on outside, the researcher would get up out of the comfy chair to look, and the primate would steal his seat. Then the primate would laugh and laugh.

[jukes]

70. the ONLY thing

that seperates humans<animals is they don't kill us for fun.

[Mutley]

71. Except housecats.

:evilgrin:

[jukes]

72. got me there, damnit!

but we'll assume they are incapable of knowing it's wrong, ok?

[Mutley]

73. Alright, that works for me.

:D

[ghostsofgiants]

81. No, the ability to weasel out of situations is what separates us...

From animals....except the weasel.

[Guy Fawkes]

82. We're plenty different from other animals...

we have have and intolerance based on race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, belief, and every thing in-between.

[Kat45]

84. Alex, the African Grey parrot, shows the he understands language

Dr. Irene Pepperburg has been working with him for years. He can recognize colors, shapes, some numbers.

More info about Alex here:

http://www.alexfoundation.org/index2.htm

[u4ic]

86. Palm Cockatoos use tools, as well

Aren't they magnificent?

[pitohui]

87. sadly they are now an endangered species

before you crack up laughing, it's true, the european starling is red-listed in britain and you are hard-pressed to find them any longer

this gifted but soft-spoken mimic is left in the shade in the united states, where it is introduced species, because mockingbirds are both good mimics and LOUD when they pick up a phrase but they are wonderful little birds