Am I the only one that doesn't want to see Barry Bonds break Ruth's record

[sasquatch]

I sure as hell hope not considering what we know now.

[DS1]

1. I love how ONE DUDE is singled out

:eyes:

[sasquatch]

2. Well he's the only one going for the record though

If there was someone else I'd say the same about them too.

[DS1]

4. I think there should be a recall of McGuire's record

even if it has been beaten already. And he should have to give up that car he won, too.

[progmom]

5. thank you

:applause:

[sasquatch]

7. I agree

If he did it, punish him by taking away the records he broke.

[Dinger]

20. Yes, I Agree

McGuire's record means nothing.

[tigereye]

3. I just think Bond's comments about Ruth were kinda rude

but Bonds isn't nearly as classy as Mays and Aaron.

[JohnKleeb]

Bonds, classy same sentence

:rofl:
What did he say about Ruth? Everyone has this perception that all Ruth did was hit homeruns. He hit for average well too. I really hope he doesn't break the record however I agree with what DS1 is saying that he's not hte only one who is suspect. Oh yeah and Ruth's record? Aaron broke htat 32 years ago.

[maveric]

26. Ruth was a lifetime .342 hitter.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ruthba01.shtml
And only 127 hits away from 3000.

[JohnKleeb]

28. Yep

number ten on the all time list and for you saberwhatevahs number uno on OPS. Surprised to see that he has 100+ three baggers.

[tigereye]

68. I'll see if I can find it

something to the effect that once Bonds passed Ruth's record " no one will think about him (Ruth) no more."


at least Ruth had some PR skills and was a populist to boot. Barry can't make that claim.

[warrens]

6. Who cares. It will get an asterisk anyway

The world is yawning.

[sasquatch]

10. An asterick isn't enough though

I say they do scrub the record books if he cheated.

[k_jerome]

8. which record of ruths do you speak?nt

[sasquatch]

11. Career Homerun record

[k_jerome]

he does not hold that record.

[sasquatch]

13. Post #12

[RedSpartan]

9. It's not Ruth's record. It's Hank Aaron's record.

Maybe you could say it's a record for left-handed hitters, but the way I see it, call me when he hits 756. He won't. The best way to honor this jerk is to ignore him.

[sasquatch]

12. Ok then: pass Ruth on the homerun list then.

[RedSpartan]

14. Well, I certainly don't want him to pass Ruth

although it is pretty much ineveitable at this point. Still, I take comfort in the fact that his legacy as a cheating jackass is secure, and his career since 1998 is completely tainted. He may pass him, but he isn't, never was, and never will be Babe Ruth. If anything, his cheating to pass him (as with McGwire/Sosa doing so to pass Maris) only brings into focus the greatness of Ruth, and increases appreciation for him. After all, Ruth hit 714 (and a .342 career average) on a steady diet of hot dogs, beer, and hookers. He'd have easily hit 1,000 if he used the "arthritic balm" and "flaxseed oil" that so helped Bonds.

[yorgatron]

15. Ruth should get an asterix too.

* known to have used beer and cigars and overeating.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Yeah but that's not an enhancer

if anything it should have limited him. I believe Ruth had the tools to make it as a hall of fame pitcher too.

[argyl]

58. His ERA in 1916 was 1.75, best in the league. Pitched five full seasons

and his won/lost record was 94/46. Career ERA of 2.28.

As a left handed pitcher he was in Walter Johnson's class.If he'd remained a pitcher he'd probably have won 400 games.If he'd been an outfielder his whole career he'd have hit over 800 HRs easy.

[sasquatch]

19. What Kleeb said

[RedSpartan]

22. Indeed.

He was 94-46 with a career 2.28 ERA. An amazing athlete.

[JohnKleeb]

23. He was not as slow as people think either

I am not saying he was Rickey Henderson on the basepaths but 123 career steals isn't bad for a guy who was built like he was.

[RedSpartan]

25. True.

I liken him to Charles Barkley -- a guy who looked overweight, but was actually "built" and was ridicuously athletic.

[JohnKleeb]

27. I thought Sir Charles got bigger only after he retired

Either way people who don't get baseball see Ruth only as the one dimsenonal power hitter but it's just untrue. He was amazing.

[RedSpartan]

30. Yeah, Barkley got a little bigger after he retired

but he was always "thick" looking. Remember, one of his nicknames was The Round Mount of Rebound.

And I remember seeing a clip on ESPN one time of some great hitters (I know Tony Gwynn was one) breaking down film of Ruth's swing and commenting on it. Gwynn, I remember, was just in awe, which is certainly saying something. I always throw the .342 career average back at people who assume Ruth was just a power hitter.

[JohnKleeb]

31. Gwynn I know started out smaller but got big

Stupid 94 strike he nearly got 400. Ruth I think more than any player was probably hte most influnetiual.

[RedSpartan]

33. Absolutely the most influential. No doubt.

[maveric]

55. The SD media and fans would bash him for being overweight.

Stating that if he was slimmer he's be better. Lifetime .338 BA, 3141 hits, EIGHT batting titles... How much "better" can you get?
Tony did well for his physical stature I beleive!

[RedSpartan]

57. The guy hit .372 at age 37!

Regardless of how he looked, he was still a great athlete. Played point guard in college, I believe, and was very good.

[maveric]

60. Tony was drafted by the then "San Diego Clippers", but opted for baseball.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gwynnto01.shtml
I beleive that he made the right career choice.

[RedSpartan]

61. That's an excellent website.

I'm a bit of a stat freak, an go there often. Nice!

[maveric]

64. So am I. Every stat for every player to ever play in the Majors.

And then some.
"T" Gwynn never hit less than 9th for the NL batting race in his 20 year career.
He and his wife have raised and given away millions for the underpriviliged kids of San Diego. Most of it done anonymously.
Years ago he went out and bought hundreds of computers on his own buck, and donated them to charitable organizations.

Something else about Tony Gwynn. In spite of his stellar career, he was NEVER the highest paid player on the San Diego Padres. NEVER! He could gone the free-agent way and got more $$$ in other cities but opted to stay and play his entire career as a San Diego Padre.
He played on some pretty BAD teams during his tenure.

[RedSpartan]

65. He always struck me as a class act.

I'm a Yankee fan, and while I certainly didn't want the Padres to win in 98, it was kind of nice to see Gwynn hit .500 in the series.

[JohnKleeb]

71. I have to say even though I love Cal Ripken Jr

as he was my idol growing up of next year's possible duo of hall of famers, Gwynn was the better hitter. They're both class acts who unfortunely only played in a combined three world series but you gotta like team loyality.

[maveric]

72. It was criminal seeing shitheads like Jack Clark and Jim Lerytz ...

getting paid MORE than T.Gwynn and then slamming him in the press as being a "selfish" player, only padding his own numbers. What bullshit!
In those days Tony was a #1 and #2 hitter in the lineup. His job was to get on base. I think that he did his job there.

[Spirochete]

51. Doesn't he still hold the record

for stealing home plate? I remember reading it somewhere.

[RedSpartan]

54. According to the Baseball Almanac

Looks like Ty Cobb holds the record with 54.

Ruth did it 10 times.

[Oeditpus Rex]

56. Pete Reiser did it eight times in one season

Think it was '47, but I'd have to look it up.

He claimed nine, though. Said once he stole and George Magerkurth called him out, then mumbled, "Shit, I missed it."

:rofl:

[RedSpartan]

59. BA says it was 7 in 1946.

And that Cobb did it 8 times in 1912.

[Dinger]

17. I'm A Brewer Fan, & Sure Hope It Doesn't Happen With Milwaukee In The Next

2 games. It'd be another stain on our stadium, just like that fucked up all-star game:-(

[reyd reid reed]

18. Bonds won't break The record...

The records belongs to Aaron. And there's no way in hell Bonds will get there...they'd have to wheel him around the bases.

For what it's worth though, I wish he would just discreetly fade way -- if he was smart, that's what he'd do and maybe retain at least a shred of what's left of his dignity.

He won't. He won't go for Aaron because even he has to know that he can't, but he wants to pass Ruth. Not out of respect for anything but him and his ego; then he's gonna pick up his marbles -- and what's left of his knees -- and retire. And probably grumble and whine about how he's being disrespected and vilified.

The league has already said that they aren't planning any ceremonies or official recognition of the 'milestone' since it's not the record.

I wish Bonds would just...finally....show a little bit of taste, discretion and respect and retire.

Now.

[maveric]

32. He might playing in the NL West.

The Giants play the Padres often and Bonds has hit more HRs against the San Diego Padres than any other team.
He hit #712 yesterday against My Pads!

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. Doesn't matter

It won't be legitimate.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

24. No, count me in.

As well I think McGwire's record for single season home runs should be taken out of the "record" books.

[k_jerome]

29. do you think it was an advantage for ruth...

not to have to face minority players at all?

what is your opinion of rampant amphetamine use by mlb players in the modern era?

every era has its demons. this boils down to dislike of one player for whatever reason.

[maveric]

34. If Black ballplayer were allowed to play during the 1st half of 20th...

century, the record books would look much different than they do right now.

[JohnKleeb]

35. Josh Gibson

:wow:

[maveric]

37. Satchell Paige, Cool Papa Bell...

And if Jackie Robinson was in the majors early on... He was a 28 year old rookie in 1947.
They were excluded for racist reasons as well a fear. White owners knew that African American players were better.

[Oeditpus Rex]

36. Oh, jeebus

I'm getting tired of this argument.

"Minority" players — Name a "minority" pitcher Bonds had a hard time with and I'll name a "white" pitcher of Ruth's era just as good or better. This argument grasps at straws.

Amphetamines — Prove that using them helped any ballplayer. The statistics don't support it. And I'd tend to agree with Jim Bouton, who wrote in "Ball Four" that his own, limited use of them only made him feel like he was playing better.

I won't deny there's a "dislike factor," but it's one Bonds himself has fostered by being an asshole.

The bottom line is, people expect athletes to play on the level, and he hasn't.

[k_jerome]

38. first, an aaron quote on roids:

"A guy can take steroids, drugs, whatever. He still has to be able to hit that Roger Clemens 96-mile-an-hour fastball. Steroids don't help you hit that fastball." -- Hank Aaron to the Los Angeles Times.

ruth established records against players who were not the best. that is a fact.

my proof for amphetamines enhancing performance is the same as yours for steroids - rampant use for decades. they were not taken for the hell of it.

people expect the players they dislike to play on the level. thus the uproar over bonds.

[RedSpartan]

40. I disagree.

Steroids don't help hand-eye coordination, but they do help you hit a baseball. How? Because they increase muscle mass and strength, most specifically in terms of swinging a bat, the fast-twitch muscle fibers. This strength enables a hitter to hold back for an extra fraction of a second before starting his swing. It helps him to better recognize the pitch and to get good wood on it. Tenths or hundredths of a second matter in baseball (and other sports, think the 100m dash), so this little bit makes a big difference.

[maveric]

46. It would increase "bat speed".

Allowing for more power when you make contact. Slower bat sppeds would result in routine fly balls.

[RedSpartan]

48. Yes, that's an offshoot of it as well.

The increased bat speed is what let's you hold back, and it also send the ball a greater distance. You're right on.

[k_jerome]

49. i disagree with aaron as well. nt.

[Oeditpus Rex]

41. '(T)hat is a fact'

Then show me the evidence. And while you're at it, show me the evidence that players of Bonds' era are the best. Again, the statistics don't support it.

I've been saying what Aaron told the Times all along — steroids don't help the eyes or the timing, which are what separate good hitters from the rest. But they do help a baseball go farther once it's hit. And the steroid argument is based in the jump in home runs, not in batting averages.

Your "proof" about amphetamines is anecdotal at best. There is no evidence to support it. There is evidence — a great deal of it — to support steroid use enhancing performances.

And people expect all athletes to play on the level.

[k_jerome]

43. the proof is there were white players only.

is it your assertion that they were the best, and the minorities were not playing based on merit or lack thereof?

and the number of homeruns being hit now? what is the basis for that? which study do you refer to on steroids affect on hitting in baseball. i would be interested to read it.

if people expected all atheletes to play on the level, steroids and other performance enhancing drugs would have been outlawed long ago. if people expected a level playing field, there would be more attention called to the lack of just such a level field when ruth was putting up his numbers against less than the best available.

what percentage of the players suspended under the new policy have been pitchers?

"Amphetamines have far less impact on performance on the field, but they are way, way more dangerous," said Dr. Charles Yesalis, a professor of health and human development at Penn State University who is writing a book on stimulants. "They can stone-cold kill you on the spot."

i guess my question is - what level of performance impact is acceptable to those that wish to crucify bonds?

[RedSpartan]

44. From tom Verducci of Sports Illustrated...

• The quote: "A guy can take steroids, drugs, whatever. He still has to be able to hit that Roger Clemens 96-mile-an-hour fastball. Steroids don't help you hit that fastball." -- Hank Aaron to the Los Angeles Times.

What you should know: OK, I don't expect Aaron to be an expert on steroids. There is no evidence of steroid use when he played. So let me help him out a little here -- and everybody else who throws out this lame argument that steroids don't help you hit a baseball, because if they did, the big leagues would be stocked with muscleheads from your local gym.

See, we're starting with a subset of athletes who already have world-class hand-eye coordination. We're not turning Joe Dumbbell into an MVP. Steroids enhance the gifts these players already have. How? They make players stronger than they naturally would be, providing increased hand and bat speed through the hitting zone. The faster your hands and bat, the longer you can wait on pitches. The longer you can wait on pitches, the more you can decode their trajectory and spin. And as Caminiti explained, increased strength can add distance to balls put into play.

Moreover, steroids and human growth hormone allow a body to recover faster and better and to train harder than otherwise would be possible legally and naturally.

Need further explanation? The SI report included the story of a minor league center fielder who was 5-foot-11 and 190 pounds. His game was about contact and speed -- and he was a steroid user. Why? They helped him hit that fastball. Let him explain: "I'm not looking for size. I do it for my fast-twitch muscles. If I don't feel good that week or if my hands don't feel good, if they're a little slow, I'll take a shot or get on a cycle. It helps immediately. I notice the difference. My hands are quicker so my bat is quicker."

[k_jerome]

47. that is where i got the quote to begin with...

i am glad you read it. did you read the section on amphetamines? their acceptance by players, management and fans? interesting.

[RedSpartan]

50. Yeah, maybe it's because they're so ingrained in the sport.

I, for one, am not a fan who accepts it, and agree they should be banned as well. Simply, if it's illegal to John Q. Public, it should be banned in baseball as well. You need a "boost" after a long night of partying? Here's a suggestion: don't go out partying. If you need a boost, get a cup of strong coffee like the rest of us before we go to work.

[Oeditpus Rex]

52. You're making it a black-white issue

I'm not. I'm rating the players strictly on their merit. Your insistence that the field wasn't level in Ruth's era smacks of Dan Le Batard. (Are you him?) It's pure speculation to postulate that the game would've been different had "minorities" been allowed to play alongside "whites," since we don't know the general quality of the "minority" players then. And to quantifiably state that they were better than "whites" is presumptive.

You ask for a "study." Peruse the home-run statistics from the "steroid years." Do you wish to dismiss the jump in homers to coincidence?

And this...

if people expected all atheletes to play on the level, steroids and other performance enhancing drugs would have been outlawed long ago. if people expected a level playing field, there would be more attention called to the lack of just such a level field when ruth was putting up his numbers against less than the best available.

...is just silly. It presumes that the Powers That Be foresaw steroid abuse in baseball and banned them with prior restraint.

As for "level of performance impact," athletes should be allowed to use their natural talents — no more, no less. That's what's acceptable. I'll no more defend users of "greenies" than I will steroid users, but I'll continue to say that comparing their relative effects is akin to shooting ducks with a rake.

[k_jerome]

62. i would expect you to disagree with points...

that would undermine your singleminded dislike of bonds. if you were consistent in your denouncement of performance enhancing substances, it would require you to focus the same attention on mays, rose, aaron, ripken and countless others. now you will argue degree of enhancement to keep the two seperate.

we know the quality of minority players from that time frame. they were put in their own separate league. and outshone their mlb counterparts none the less. the current dominace of black and hispanic players is the legacy of these great players that never received the "level playing field" that seems to concern you so much.

then again, it is much easier to say that ruth exceled against the best competition, players of the modern era received no performance enhancement through the use of illegal amphetamines (which were curiously outlawed recently along with steroids), and barry bonds is killing the integrity of baseball through his jerkiness and big arms.

[Oeditpus Rex]

66. And it seems just as easy for you

to fail to show proof or evidence other than what you believe to support your points, to presume to know what I think and to put words into my mouth.

You defend Bonds based on things that happened 20 to 80 years ago and for which you have no supporting evidence, and you want to make incongruent comparisons. You ask for consistency, yet your arguments are quantitatively inconsistent.

But we've been down this road before, haven't we? And your posts on it were deleted.

[k_jerome]

69. evidence of what?

your hatred for bonds?

the double standard you apply to bonds as opposed to your heroes that either did nothing to enhance their performances on the field or did not do it to the DEGREE of bonds. it is your opinion that amphetamines are good performance enhancers and steroids are bad. what evidence can i show to refute it?

your assertion that ruth played against the best players of his day is an opinion i guess. what evidence can i show to refute it?

[Oeditpus Rex]

73. You don't get it, do you?

Again, you put words into my mouth. Show me where I said amphetamines were "good." Show me where I said Ruth played against the "best." Show me where I expressed "hatred" for Bonds.

Your entire argument is that Bonds' numbers are legitimate because other players took another type of drug and Babe Ruth didn't face any black or Hispanic pitchers. Do you not see the logical error in this? Not only are you "supporting" Bonds by dragging down others — not unlike Freepers "defending" Bush by screaming "Clinton got a blow job!" — but your arguments can be neither qualified nor quantified.

If you wish to be taken seriously, please get a more solid argument. And a shift key.

[k_jerome]

75. my argument is that those that constantly harp...

on bonds as you do. all the time. are hypocritical. when i offer instances of numerous other baseball heroes engaging in the use of performance enhancing drugs, you have no problem with them or their behavior. when i point out the fact that your boy ruth played against mediocre talent in general, you claim he did not. i believe you miss the point. every era has its questionable behavior and controversy. singling out bonds and claiming he should have his stats expunged or annotated is hypocritical. i do not know what the roots of this hypocrisy are, although i can make guesses. baseball has never been, nor will it ever be a game of integrity. the outrage you show over bonds is suspiciously overblown to me. the fact that you discount the drug use of a large percentage of major leaguers including willie mays and pete rose and do not call for them to be blacklisted strikes me as single minded hatred of a man and not his behavior as you claim.

my support of bonds extends to the fact that he did not break the rules of baseball in his alleged use of steroids. neither did mcgwire or sosa or giambi, etc. the substances were banned and testing implemented, and bonds has passed his tests. therefore, he broke no rules. so if it is freeper like to not join you in your hatred for a man that seems to have been singled out by the media and many "fans" as the problem with baseball today, so be it.

[k_jerome]

45. David Wells on greenies (speed):

"Those little buggers will open your eyes, sharpen your focus and get your blood moving on demand over and over again. I won't ever object to a sleepy-eyed infielder beaning up to help me win."

[northzax]

74. the point is that the talent pool was smaller

Bonds is facing players drawn from a dozen countries on three continents. Even adjusting for the smaller size of the league while Ruth played, the players are, at every position, better.

Babe Ruth was an outsized talent, no question. But would he have success today? only if he changed his work habits and lifestyle. Ruth reminds me of Shaq from 5 years ago, he didn't need to work harder, because he was physically so much more suited for what he did than anyone else in the game. But the game changes, players change, and bare naked talent isn't enough to dominate any more.

[reyd reid reed]

39. But the biggest reason of all

Is that Bonds has no respect for anything or anyone other than Bonds. He's one massive ego. A lot of people DON'T like him, but he brought it on himself by being an ass. Minority players (or lack thereof), amphetemines, this era, that era...take away all of that stuff and there are still countless fans who wouldn't want to see Bonds pass Ruth because of his attitude and his ego and his lack of respect.

Not to mention his lack of integrity. He cheated. Or at least he's given the overwhelming impression he has. I'm not saying he's the only one who's done it or who's suspect, but the difference is, he's unrepentant. That's the final straw.

[rockymountaindem]

42. No, you're not.

Willie Mays and Hammerin' Hank are class acts and were during their baseball careers. The Babe, for all his personal indiscretions, was at least a professional on the field and in the clubhouse.

Bonds is a steroid-addled jerk who thinks he *is* the *whole* team. I wouldn't want to share the locker room with him. Did you ever see how he has his own private corner in there with a leather recliner and a big TV just for him? That's just bad team dynamics. I don't care for Bonds very much.

[madinmaryland]

53. GO BARRY!! On to 756!!!!!

:hide:

[SaveElmer]

63. I don't consider that he has...

Or will...any record he set starting in the 1998 season is bogus as far as I am concerned...

[bigwillq]

67. I HATE Bonds!

:mad:

I don't want him to do it but we all know he probably will.

[k_jerome]

70. at least you can admit the reason. nt.