Parents who buy their kids crap like I-pods, razor phones, expensive

[Thtwudbeme]

laptops....and then bitch about how expensive it is to raise kids:

Wake the fuck up.

I am not that damned old (42) and if I wanted a walkman (and I had the original) or a new stereo...I WORKED. I babysat, I did yard work for the neighbors, or my grandparents.

WTF is going on with parents these days? Is it just easier to buy the kids something to shut them up like I give my dog a chew toy to play with?

My God--we are getting worse and worse in this country. It's ridiculous.

When I was a young teen--about 12 or 13---my best friends Dad was an executive with Exxon. I remember her parents discussing the price of braces with my parents; the conversation revolved around being able to make payments and how much it was going to cost in the long run. This girl came from a wealthier family, but the kids grew up normal, and like us, did odd jobs to pay for their NON-ESSENTIAL crap.

BTW--a Razor phone and Ipods are NON-ESSENTIALS.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. I knew someone like that.

He came from a wealthy family and received a brand-new Lexus SUV when he was a freshman in college -- at least $35,000.

I later saw him with a different car -- turns out he "didn't like" the first expensive car his parents bought him. :eyes:

[seaglass]

2. I don't understand your thinking - kids should only have the

essentials in life? What do they get on their birthdays vegetables and clothes?

Do you get upset when people complain about how high their r.e. taxes are or their mortgage payment? After all, a house is not an essential - people can rent or live in a trailer.

We all have choices to make about how we use money to enjoy our lives. There's no need to be judgmental about the choices other people make.

Both of my kids have iPods. My daughter bought her own and my son got his as a birthday gift. They sure get a lot of use. I don't feel bad about them having iPods at all.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. All three of mine have iPods. Even the 9 yo.

And, FWIW, I think it is expensive to raise kids even without all the gadgets. My food bill alone would shock some folks.

It's my money and if I want to spend it on my children, that is my right.

[Misunderestimator]

5. 1970 = stereo @ $200 - $300... 2006 = iPod @ $200 - $300

And RAZRs are free with a contract and special promotions (I just got a free one myself). :shrug:

Sounds to me more like technology changes and necessities do too. Our kid is going to get a cell phone someday simply because it makes sense to give him one, not because we want to spoil him.

[seaglass]

9. And from my understanding laptops are required for college,

when I went you didn't even need a typewriter.

[JohnKleeb]

12. They're not required at mine however

they are useful in so many ways. I have probably the worst handwriting ever and I have to say if I didn't have my laptop I wouldn't have done as well as I did. I don't like people whining but cell phones aren't utterly useless and in fact I'd argue the total opposite. Kids like to go out with their friends and if they have a phone it will be much more easier for their parents to contact their kids than it would be if they didn't. I know my late teen years got much easier once I had a phone.

[seaglass]

29. I'm surprised at that. My kids teachers have not accepted

handwritten work since they were in elementary school. I was shocked that teachers just assumed all kids had computers at home. One of my kids teachers this year assumed everyone had one of those USB drives (?) so the kids could copy their work from school to work on at home. My son was insistent that we needed one of these and I all I could think was what the hell is wrong with copying to disk?

My daughter has a cell phone and it has been more of a benefit I think for me than her, I can't help it I've always been the worrying type.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Yeah teachers do make the mistake of assuming everyone has technology

I was still allowed to turn in handwritten work in high school and middle school however I would have to retype it a lot. Perhaps some of these kids with really expensive laptops are being spoiled rotten by their parents but there could be a shade of gray to it. I get annoyed at having to use technology often and my dad who doesn't get the use of technology in this day and age often doesn't like it but you have to adjust to the times whether you like it or not.

[RedCappedBandit]

64. Their justification

is that everyone has access to a computer, at school or at home. They aren't assuming that all kids have computers at home.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Most new computers

don't have disk drives. Kids are going to have to have a flash drive in order to take stuff home. Or email it to themselves.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

95. Yeah.

I know since 6th grade, it seems like everything needed to be typed when handed in. We used to have a really slow computer & sometimes it would quit when Word opened, so I handwrote some things... however, my teachers usually wouldn't accept them and sometimes they made me stay in the library afterschool to type stuff! So I think computers are pretty essential to education these days...

[JohnKleeb]

116. Certainly has felt that way

How you doing btw? Yeah I remember handwriting a lot of stuff then my teachers would be like I can't read this so I would have to retype it. Yeah I think computers are VERY essential to education, it's part of adjusting to what we got I guess. In fact one of the courses I took this spring was a "hybrid" class which means we needed computer access for it, blackboard and all that stuff.

[rockymountaindem]

82. I don't know how I'd get through school without a laptop.

I need to be online all the time to get additional material my profs post on their websites, doing research in electronic databases (if you ever need articles, go to www.jstor.com if your school has a subscription) etc. Not to mention the actual writing of the papers. All of this would be a lot harder, more time consuming and definately less convienent if I had to do it all at the library.

[Thtwudbeme]

21. They are not required at the school I am attending

Some do; some don't.

[seaglass]

32. That's good to know. n/t

[ghostsofgiants]

68. Not at my school.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

94. Yeah

I can't imagine not owning a laptop at a gigantic school like NYU. If I didn't have one there would be no way for me to get everything accomplished, because I have teachers who post assignments online, sometimes after NYU-owned computer labs are closed for the evening or when I'm back upstate without access to a computer. I used my graduation money to pay my mother back for the laptop, so I guess TECHNICALLY I didn't earn it - but whatever. It's necessary. I do a lot of things for my parents, and we have a great relationship. I would not call myself spoiled whatsoever. As it is, I'm the one who has to pay off a six figure loan for 4 years of college.

[Nikia]

97. Not really

I graduated 6 years ago. Who knows things might have changed, but I doubt it?
There were public computer labs in all of the dorms and academic buildings. The academic buildings were locked at 10 pm but if you were already in, you were in, and several students had keys (given to them by profs for projects and things). The library had computers of course and closed at midnight. The dorm labs were open 24 hours. Of course, there were internet connections in all the rooms for those who had computers. At certain times, you had to scope out a computer because the labs were busy with people writing papers and such, but you could usually find one. You were allowed to ask people to finish up what they were doing and let you write your paper if they were doing non academic stuff like playing computer games.
As for tests, those were to be handwritten, unless you had permission for a good reason. Writing in blue books is a tradition at my alma mater.

[Thtwudbeme]

19. Yes, and I know that you are from a fairly wealthy family compared to mine

and that your Dad might have bought you a stereo--- but a 200 dollar one? In what year?

Did you do any work for it, or was it handed to you?

[Misunderestimator]

28. Really? Wealthy? Not at all.

My parents bought me nothing. I purchased the stereo myself and I bought it for $200 in 1976 from Radio Shack. I worked since I was 12 and haven't stopped since.

That said, I don't think my parents were right in never giving me anything. I think they could easily have afforded to buy me a stereo, and I could have saved that $200 to pay for the expenses of college that I also had to pay for myself years later.

I'm curious why you think I come from a wealthy family. My father was a doctor, but he had huge expenses caring for my mother and he had horrible financial problems with his practice. We didn't see much money when I was a kid.

[Thtwudbeme]

35. I responded to you below:

our "post timing" sucks.

:)

[Left Is Write]

83. Sounds about right.

My parents gave me a stereo set for Christmas one year when I was a teenager (turntable, FM radio, cassete player, speakers), and I don't see that as any different than giving my daughter an iPod.

She also has a cell phone and has since she was 15, though I didn't have anything to do with it (her father initiated the contract and pays all of her bills - frankly, because she's an adult now, I think it's time she paid her own cell phone bills, but it's really none of my business).

[hfojvt]

88. that is silly

even in the short run, renting costs more than owning, and I do get upset if people complain about the taxes on their $250,000 houses. When I know they could have gotten a decent one for about half of that.

[seaglass]

92. So you like to judge how others spend their money, I don't.

I'm not going to debate rents being higher than mortgages because I'm a homeowner now and not up to date with the rental market. All I know was when we bought this house our apartment was $800/month, much lower than the mortgage.

[driver8]

108. I dream of finding a decent house for $250,000. In Los Angeles,

250,000 will get you a refrigerator box.

I am not rich, by any means, but some of us have to spend more on housing to have a decent place to live.

I choose to live here and I'm not complaining, but less expensive housing would be nice.

By the way, I don't give a flying f*ck how people spend their money. (Unless they owe me money!). Some people feel that buying expensive things makes them superior to others...some don't.

I forgot what my main point was going to be so I'm going to stop now.

[Redstone]

4. Our 9-year-old is whining about that stuff.

He's not getting it, though.

Redstone

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. Well said!!

If parents buy those as gifts for birthday or Christmas/Hannukah/whatever, that's one thing. But to buy them willy nilly cuz the kids are whining about - or because the kids' friends have them - or because they don't want their neighbors to think they're "poor" - that's bullshit.

But hell, my parents expected me to work for everything "non-essential", and if I wanted an expensive gift for birthday or Christmas, they'd give me SOME money, and expect me to pay for the rest of it.

It was a good way to grow up - I didn't get crap handed to me left and right.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. Badly said. My daughter has those things, albeit not as expensive.

Her MP3 player is an I-River...but the bus ride to school is an hour long. She's a great kid and sometimes she DOES get things just because she's a great kid. She buys the expensive clothes etc that she wants herself...but I don't mind rewarding her for good behaviour. It's positive feedback. Poor children can be spoiled ass brats and rich children can be well behaved. It's not about the "stuff". :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

14. You are exactly right, Mrs. G.

'Stuff' doesn't make or break. We buy our kids things because we want to, and they aren't spoiled any more than I was when I got my first walkman in the 70's.

[Misunderestimator]

13. I never got anything handed to me either.

I worked from the age of 12 and bought every non-essential thing I ever got. Never even got Christmas presents from my parents (more than $10, or later $20, cash to spend on whatever I wanted... *woohoo*) except for ONE year when my father bought me a used spinet piano for $200. My parents paid for the essentials and were adamant about us not having what all the other kids had.

That sucked though. I think there can be a balance. And these days, a computer is a necessity, and in many ways and certain circumstances, a cell phone is as well. An iPod... yeah... that should be a gift (or the kid should work and pay for it him/herself), just as a stereo (or a piano) would have been a gift 30 years ago.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. I guess you could say we "handed" my daughter her MP3 player.

She has made great strides in helping around the house. It wasn't a gift, and she didn't pay for it, but she earned it. :shrug:

[Midlodemocrat]

17. My kids got theirs for Christmas.

The older two got theirs from Santa, the little one paid for hers with a gift card from my brother.

[Misunderestimator]

18. That doesn't sound like handing it to her.

Sounds like she earned it and it makes a lot of sense to give her one. I intend to "hand" a phone to our boy when he's old enough.

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. Our daughter having a phone has been a lifeline...I can't tell you how

many times I sat around waiting for the bus to show up on days it was running late when I didn't have to. Now she calls, I wait for my husband to come home for our son and then take off to get her. Life is a lot easier with a teenager when you have a connection.

[Thtwudbeme]

26. So, you are pretty much agreeing with everything I wrote...

Your daughter earned her stuff, or paid for it by doing chores, working, etc--

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. But how do we know that isn't what other parents are doing as well?

I know there are crap parents out there. There are crap parents here in my middle class neighborhood...down the street in Grosse Pointe and in the trailer park I started out in. I don't see those things as detrimental. I see parents as detrimental, whether they buy stuff for their children or not.

[Thtwudbeme]

39. I am assuming that the 18 year old that lives in the condo that her

Dad bought for her to attend the private college across the street didn't earn that money babysitting.

I have to assume that the kid that was in my Buddhist class probably didn't make enough weeding a garden part time to buy a 2005 Lexus SUV--much less an Ipod, or a camera that looks to have cost at least 400 bucks.

Just a hunch.

;)

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. But, I also know the girl who's mom is paying for her college and

her apartment rent because, after her father died, she came home everyday after school to watch and care for her sister so her mother could continue to support them. But, many people wouldn't know that and say she is spoiled. I guess what bristles is that not every parent is like that. I don't know many who just pay for things without some sort of reason.

[progmom]

45. ok, so you have me nodding my head here

Here in Ann Arbor, many of the out of state students at the University of Michigan (out of state tuition is obscenely expensive) are driving BMWs, Mercedes and Lexuses. And from my years in record retail, I can tell you that many of them have an incredibly disgusting sense of entitlement. If that's what you're talking about, I'm with you 100%. But your initial post struck me as being more about your interpretation of buying gifts for children as spoiling them, and that sentiment isn't one I necessarily agree with.

(ok - that was a convoluted sentence but I have to get back to work so I am going to let that stand)

[Dangerously Amused]

56. Buying a condo for a kid who attends college is not necessarily

...something done to spoil the kid as much as it is good financial strategy for the parents. At the end of college the parents sell the condo and recoup a lot if not all of the money they spent on it. It makes a lot more sense than spending the money on apartment rent and never seeing a dime of it again.

[BigMcLargehuge]

57. or spending the cost of a condo

so the kid can share a room in a dorm

[Oeditpus Rex]

71. Good point

My nephew transferred to a different college last year, as he wants to be an X-ray technician and the college near his home offers no classes for that. Rather than paying rent on an apartment, my sister and BIL bought a mobile home near his new campus, and they're upgrading it a bit so when he graduates they can get more for it than they paid. (OTOH, he's/they're still out the space rent.)

BTW — he also has a job.

[politicat]

89. Uh...

Unless they're in a high demand area, trailers never appreciate. They have to be on a foundation and attached to land to appreciate.

The exceptions to that rule are places with high demand, like Malibu, Key West, Silicon Valley, etc. And even then, it's risky.

I feel bad for them if they're expecting to even break even. But it does make more sense than paying dorm fees... sometimes. (Depends in large part on food and utilities in the area.)

[Oeditpus Rex]

98. Where in my post are 'trailers' mentioned?

As a mobile home dweller, I'm fucking sick of this shit.

[politicat]

102. They are the same thing and I say that from long experience in them.

Sorry you don't like it, but they don't appreciate, they have wheels and axles, VIN numbers and their financing is in the same class as auto financing. They're vehicles by definition of the law and that's not likely to change as long as their quality is so piss poor and they continue to be sold and managed so unscrupulously. They take advantage of the poor and working poor by giving them a semblance of adequacy while in reality giving only the most basic of roofs that won't last through the end of the mortgage! (Members of my immediate family own four - a 1975 modular that's falling apart in Indiana, a 1990 park doublewide in Florida that survived Charley by the grace of two well placed trees, a 1984 single in a 50+ park that my mother is trying to keep together with gum and shoestrings, and a 2001 model in Georgia that's been refloored twice and has had the roof replaced once.) And I spent more time living in one as a child and teen -- they're common base housing for low and mid level officers, and rental parks spring up around military bases like mushrooms after rain. And the lot rent is ALWAYS 95% of BAQ for an E-5 + 3 dependents or an O-2 + 2 dependents. I'll take my decrepit 1920s miner's house, thanks.

But my husband and I had one. My husband and his ex wife bought it out of ignorance and desperation 10 years ago, and when she left him, she left him with the little place. And it was the biggest money pit on the planet next to the War in Iraq. The only reason we don't have it today, paying a second mortgage and that waste of lot rent is thanks to a fire that totaled the place; a fire that, had it been in a house with a foundation, would have been only a tenth as devastating. I lived in that house for a couple of years. I have zero respect for whatever you want to call them - trailers, manufactured housing, mobile homes, whatever.

It's a waste for the owner, who ends up losing more money than s/he would paying rent (because lot rents + the mortgage end up being more expensive than the same square footage of rental), it has all of the pain of being in an apartment (CC&Rs, leases, sub-let and lawn restrictions) and all the pain of being a homeowner (have to fix shit) with none of the benefits of either. Hell, the mortgage interest isn't even enough to compensate for the fact that they're money and fire and wind traps. And per square foot, the insurance on them is significantly higher. All around, they can be economically devastating for anyone who buys one thinking they'll be able to flip it in a few years. (I'm seriously considering getting a doctorate in economics, and the economics of housing for the working poor is something in which I have a visceral and personal interest. Being so utterly overeducated that I'm barely employable... might as well make it worse...)

So anyway, the one that was gutted didn't have a squared angle or a plumbed vertical in the place. The wiring was crap; every time the printer came on, the whole place's lights dimmed. A person couldn't use a space heater, a desk lamp and a 350 watt desktop computer on the same circuit; it would blow the breaker every time. The pipes froze and there was no duct work at all - everything was direct forced air, meaning that the two ends of the 16 x 80 were freezing, while the middle was a bloody oven. No heat if the power was out, either, even though it was a gas furnace. The door frames were awful; I could kick the exterior doors in, and I'm little. And it was only ten years old. It's rare that anyone can say that a disaster was a blessing, but that fire was a blessing in disguise. Similar trailers sit on the market for three or four years in this area, or get repo'ed or sold for property taxes. There's one on the other side of the main road from me that's been up for sale since I bought my house in 2000. And it has its own land, and is only 7 years old. There are repos about 6 blocks away that haven't sold in two years and I live in an area where they are the last "affordable" housing (though after lot rent increases, they're only affordable for the most imaginative). A local one, bought at the same time as I bought mine, owned by a friend and on a park lot, runs her more (with lot rent) than my mortgage for a slightly bigger house on a lot where I can have a garden, a clothesline and a shed. Neither of us have garages, and she has off street parking, which I don't have. (But offstreet parking is probably not worth the $200K she'll pay over what I pay over the 30 years of my mortgage.)

I will agree that they tend to be more efficient than an older house if it hasn't been properly insulated, and they do have better windows now (My friend has great windows.). But having had to walk my sister through some pretty sad repairs needed on a 5 year old double (things like replacing bathtubs and sinks because they cracked), and having seen my mother and grandmother struggle to keep theirs livable, I don't see that the improvements in quality have been any more than cosmetic. They're still glued together out of MDF and paperboard, they still blow off their piers if the winds get too strong; and they still have axles and hitches and wretched financing.

We now know how to build far better housing by prebuilding room modules that can be placed on foundations than we can slapping shit together in a factory and hauling it to a leased site. (There's a huge exhibit on this at the Field Museum in Chicago, so I assume the data is available online somewhere.) And we know that putting a bunch of them together in a park is a recipe for social, criminal and community problems because it is de facto, if not de jure, economic segregation as a way of keeping us po' whites and browns in our places. (Note: I'm a precinct captain for the local Dems. My precinct includes 4 parks as well as a lot of very old housing. I know the racial and economic demographics of my neighborhood quite intimately.)

Parks don't build viable communities among residents INTENTIONALLY because that would lead to residents protesting en masse to lot rent increases and degradation of services. Park management tries to divide residents by pitting some against others, encouraging those with newer places to consider other tenants as liabilities and the enemy and to complain about those with older places in all sorts of ways. (The local parks encourage tenants to report rules violations against each other by financially rewarding them, and by violating several Constitutional rights by evicting anyone who is arrested (not convicted) on drug charges, child abuse charges, or domestic violence charges. The regs are currently being challenged in court, but we could not get a judge to agree to an injunction against eviction.) In my not so humble opinion, parks are so predatory they're as criminal as check cashing and payday loan services and need to be regulated into cooperative communities for the benefit of the whole community. And because the communities are not cohesive and there's little neighborhood communication, it makes them a perfect target for drug manufacturing (they're cheap and detached), prostitution (they're cheap and no one notices extra vehicles in a park), human trafficking (same as prostitution) and other crimes. Oh, and children who go to schools that serve parks and live in parks - even if they live in newer properties with well educated and progressive parents - tend to have a higher rate of learning disability and mental health referrals by teachers and admin than do children from equivalent socio-economic backgrounds who live in equivalent fixed structure housing. (Journal of Socioeconomics, 4th Q 2003; Study out of University of Northern Colorado.) Discrimination? Absolutely. And I do blame the teachers and admin for behaving badly. But knowing that and given the option between a fixed structure rental and a park model, I'd take the rental.

City ordinances almost everywhere do not allow them to be placed on properties not zoned for them, so land/home combinations have to be out on county land; that means that every place I've ever lived, county land is outside the range of public transit, walking distance to groceries and shops, and usually outside of water districts. (You really don't want to know what Arizona well "water" will do to a water heater. The fact that it doesn't solidify in the pipe on the way up is amazing.) So if they're inside city limits, they're 95% of the time in parks, which are predatory unless you can buy into the diminishing number of co-op parks, and if they're outside city limits, it's rare that the residents have any access to real public transit, public services or much of anything useful. So they encourage oil consumption by requiring cars and that offsets completely their energy efficiency.

Yeah, I have real experience and am highly disturbed by the way residents tend to be manipulated by unscrupulous sales and management people. But whatever you call them, they still are disposable housing that sells more than what they can deliver. Be tired of it. But don't blame me for the state of the industry and the continuing perception that they're trailers.

(And I'm just as bad on subdivision fixed housing. Those have a lot of the same problems - Covenants rather than management - and are just as environmentally destructive and discourage community spirit just as badly. The only advantage they have is that there is no money wasted on park rent (instead it's interest.).)

[Oeditpus Rex]

104. I've had zero of the experiences of which you speak

Except for the semi-rural location, which I prefer.

You've obviously been through a lot of shit with mobile homes. I haven't.

[politicat]

110. Lucky you.

It's not something I would wish on anyone.

[shrike]

115. Uh, how about the guy who bought a house so his kid would have

a place to park? I kid you not. he bought a house a few doors down from the (high) school so his kid could park in the driveway. Limited amount of spaces in the school parking lot and kid just could not "get himself up early enough" so that he could get there in time. So Dad bought him his own little house, with his own little driveway. Got in trouble with the city, though, because kid's friends all decided to park there too, leaving a mess of cars all over the place for hours at a time. Can't say I blame them, though, the friends.

[Dangerously Amused]

119. Yeah, and I'm thinking

...there is just NO WAY that Dad stashed all his porn there and then blamed his kid's friends. Or met up with his mistress in that house at any time. :eyes:

[shrike]

122. Nobody got busted for porn

They got busted for parking. Guess they were cramming as many cars as possible in the driveway or leaving them at the curb and it got the neighbors' panties in a bunch.

[driver8]

109. I'm sure you are right...but WTF?

Don't you think that if the situations were reversed that you would be driving around in a Lexus and living in a condo that Daddy bought for you?

Live your own life, do what you think is right and don't worry about some rich kids who got a break because daddy has money.

[progmom]

22. and we reward progspawn similarly

he gets "good boy" treats - a book, a playmobil figure or a doll (he loves dolls...) - regularly.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. My saying is,"I giveth...and I can taketh away..."

and I do, when she steps out. Currently the phone is up in the cupboard when she is home, because she tried to text on it...to the tune of an extra $50 on our bill. We turned that option off, but she still loses it when she gets home..for a while.

[progmom]

41. ooooh - sounds like what i did to my dad when we first got AOL

...and they didn't have the unlimited plans yet. i ran up a HUGE bill the first month we had it (I went to college in town and lived at home). and yeah - i had to pay for that.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Ha! That one cost her 10 hours of babysitting.

:)

[mduffy31]

96. There is nothing wrong with that

...my parents used to do the same thing. If I wanted something that was a little costly I had to do things for it. One summer I can't remember what it was but I ended up painting the house for it, so there is nothing wrong with that.


On edit: I remember what it was now, I wanted some new skis. The ones that I had were just fine, but they weren't "cool," so I worked for a new pair.

[Thtwudbeme]

24. I JUST read this post----

you answered my question from above.

You didn't strike me as the type that was handed stuff.

[Misunderestimator]

37. That's a relief.

I would hate to give that impression. :D :hi:

[seaglass]

I admit that my kids' first beanie babies were a bribe and were

purchased for no other reason than that they were home with the chicken pox, I had a conference call with the COO and I wanted to make sure they didn't fight with each other while I was on the call.:-)

I VERY rarely purchase any "toys" for my kids for no reason, I just can't afford to and they are aware of that.

[progmom]

46. and you shouldn't feel guilty about that

in fact, because you don't buy them everything they want, the times you do indulge them probably mean more. :shrug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. My daughter has an I-River (cheaper than an I-pod) and a cell phone

because her school is approximately an hour drive away from me, and I want her to be able to contact me at all times. She is a good kid and deserves the things we buy her. AND we also had her in braces, and we're not a "wealthier" family, we did it for her health. I had non essential things growing up, and so will my children. They are well behaved, decent PEOPLE. Key word here is PEOPLE. If it's good enough for you to goof off on a computer, it is good enough for my child. It's not the "stuff" that matters. It's the upbringing. I know children with nothing who are brats...and those with everything who are caring, kind human beings.

***Newsflash---computers for recreation are NON-ESSENTIALS.


That said: Hey there! How have you been? :hug:

[Thtwudbeme]

16. The computer I goof off on was paid for by me;

I seriously doubt your kids are spoiled---actually...you made my point for me when you mentioned that your daughter pays for her expensive clothing with her own money.

I am talking about kids that are growing up with no idea of how money works, how much things cost, etc.

I am sure that an hour bus ride is a pain for your child---but, remember...kids made that ride for decades--with NO music. Sometimes it is just "stuff." Having an ipod or an i-river is a luxury item.

That said! I am fine...I need to be packing, and taking the doggie to Dog Jail. We are heading up to the mountains!

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. We're going to disagree. I never made an hour bus ride in my life.

I walked, with my walkman cassette player that I still have. ;) I don't understand the point. All of the things you mentioned we have bought for our daughter, and some not as gifts. It is expensive to raise kids, but not because of that. It costs heavily in feeding, emotions, doctors bills and the like. :) Oh man...I wish I was heading up to the mountains. I need a vacation. I take it doggie does not like being cooped up away from you. :( I would dog sit if you were closer. If you're ever in MI on vacation, drop him with us. :bounce:

[Thtwudbeme]

31. Actually, you disagreed with my post, but then backed up every word I said

;)

Many kids rode the bus an hour when I was growing up. I had a 7 minute walk to school--I was lucky.

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. I haven't backed up anything. I don't see how we can assume those

parents aren't doing exactly what I do. Which is give my child things. Maybe they are buying their child things for good behaviour and the like. :shrug: Not a kid rode an hour when I was growing up. Not one. My mother lived on a farm and her ride was a half hour. The point was, I had a walkman to get me through the walk. I don't see anything wrong with children having the same luxuries that adults have.

[gollygee]

8. I don't see a problem with kids getting nice gifts

although I do see your point about the parents getting them expensive things and then complaining about how much it costs to raise them.

[DS1]

11. Yes, but babysitters need Masters Degrees, lawnmowers

can expose precious young skin to dangerous levels of sun and allergens !

[LaurenG]

30. lol

yep, but in the "olden" days before sunscreen and allergy meds we did it anyway. So far, I'm still in good health. :rofl:

We can always count on you to put things in perspective huh.

[gollygee]

36. Yes and my dad has skin cancer

not everyone survived those "good old days" so well.

[LaurenG]

42. I'm sorry to hear that about your dad

It's true we don't all survive the dangers as well.:hug:

[gollygee]

49. Thanks

I'm a bit sensitive about the "we didn't need sunblock when we were kids" thing. Thanks for understanding.

[MiniMandaRuth]

25. A gri from my school (Just one, mind you)

Razor phone, iPod, designer iPod case, designer jeans...

Greatest moment was, was in science and she spilled iodine all over her brand new "100$" jeans.

[LaraMN]

33. I always find it a bit odd when teenagers own nicer vehicles than I do!

I'm pretty careful about spoiling my own kids- I saw the results of that in my husband's sister. Not good. Yeah- I'm more concerned with the costs of braces than whether my kid has his own car or non-essential "toys," when he's 16. If he wants that kind of stuff, he WILL be funding it himself. I never had my own car, and was expected to chip in on the additional insurance costs of my driving.

[Left Is Write]

85. At least two of my daughter's friends drive very nice, newer cars.

However, both girls work and pay their own car payments.

[xmas74]

47. I could see myself buying my daughter an Ipod in a few

years. We hike and camp often and take long driving trips. An Ipod, as a birthday or Christmas present, would be a nice way to keep her entertained when she gets a bit older and doesn't want to hear Mom sing along w/ the radio.

I could also see her having a cell in a few years, when she doesn't want me to stay at every single practice. I'd prefer one of the kid models-they allow room for only four telephone numbers to be programmed in. That way, if practice got out early she could call me (or one of my friends, her aunt and uncle or my parents) and let us know that she is done for the night. That probably wouldn't be as a present but a cell that allows more options would be (and it would be prepaid, to keep down time). Any other kind of cell would not be allowed until her teen years and any charges over the basic minutes would have to be paid by her.

As to laptops-some schools are assuming that students have computers at home. And some schools allow the rental of a laptop for the student, a semester at a time. We have a PC but I can see that the direction we are going in she will probably need a laptop before high school. I'd pay for that out of pocket as a school expense instead of a present but since it will be a school expense it will be for school use only, w/ any extra "fun" time monitored closely.

Truthfully, I get more irritated w/ the Playstations and the XBox's than the others listed above. I see no redeeming value in the gaming units, even if they are fun. And the newer models cost more than an inexpensive Ipod.

[GirlinContempt]

52. This kid that I nanny for

He's autistic. Pretty severely autistic. He didn't start talking until he was about, 5? 6? He's 7 now and still has trouble with it. His mother is pretty poor, but, she bought a PS and a PS2 when it came out for the two of them. I did sort of think "Huh?" at first, but then, his handwriting started improving. And he started trying harder to talk. He got so good at the spiderman games it improved his coordination in other things (it's the only thing that changed, so I'm pretty sure thats what it was), and he really wanted to talk to people about this and show it to them, and he started trying to converse and connect with people more.

[xmas74]

58. I have heard of a therapeutic value w/ some

games in ref to hand-eye. That I can totally support. The main problem is the average Joe and Jane giving the kids games to "shut them up" instead of having to interact w/ them.

Games, in small quantities, can be fine. They can encourage hand-eye coordination and, in the case of the autistic child you mentioned, give him something to want to communicate an interest. I just have a problem w/ families that substitute games for family interaction, reading, playing and various other activities.

[GirlinContempt]

61. Well, to use a less extreme example

I remember my first Nintendo. My parents bought it for us just because. They still interacted with me, they didn't control how much I played it, but it was never an issue because of how they raised me.

I don't think it's fair to assume parents reasoning for supplying their kids with video games, or any other form of entertainment.

[xmas74]

63. My daughter owns a Playstation,

as does my brother's stepchildren. I have no problems w/ them on a small level but I do know of a number of girls in my daughter's troop who own them in place of family interaction. The mothers actually have bragged about putting them in front of the XBox to "shut them up".

Gaming time is fine if it is in addition to other activities. You've always sounded like a well-read woman. Usually an appreciation of reading, music, art, nature, etc is developed in the home. (But not always). Your parents allowed the unlimited time gaming because they knew that you would go back to other interests and it shows in your posts. You learned how to self-moderate w/ other interests. Many kids do not learn moderation and show no other interests other than in video games. Some of the children's parents use it nowadays as a way to not have to interact as much w/ their children. (Not every parent but a number that I've listened to have stated that exact sentiment.)

I take back the statement of there being no redeeming value in gaming systems. There can be some: hand-eye coordination, creativity and imagination building and with some games they can be educational. But, as with everything else in life, moderation is the key. Unfortunately, I'm noticing less moderation when it comes to games and television than there used to be. I'm not asking for a ban or anything drastic-I'm just asking that parents encourage a wide range of activities. (As to my Girl Scouts-I'm happy to have them there but I've noticed that the same parents that brag about "dumping" their kid in front of the tv or gaming system are the same parents who drop their daughters off before there is a leader even at the church and are the same ones that we have to call to pick their daughters up).

Sorry about the ramblings. I worked all night and cannot sleep a wink today. I didn't sleep much yesterday either so I'm incoherent, to say the least.

[tigereye]

48. please don't assume that all parents spoil their kids -

Caring for kids is expensive.

Many of us ask our kids to contribute to paying for what they want or ask them to use birthday money

Most of us set strong limits for our kids and teach them not to have a sense of entitlement

As for phones, it's a great way to stay in touch and know where the kids are. A lot of parents don't necessarily buy the most expensive ones. As far as the Ipod, no not essential, but most kids want music. That's nothing new.

Yes, there are parents who spoil their kids. Yes, most of us had to work for and pay for every thing we had as kids - college etc. But there isn't anything wrong with parents helping out. I think that every generation thinks that they had it harder as kids, but most people want their children's lives to be better and easier than theirs.

:)

[arwalden]

51. ~

:thumbsup:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

76. Here's to you, my friend!

Well said! :toast:

[asthmaticeog]

50. If the only presents you buy your kids are non-essentials,

you're a dullard and a prig as a parent. How much did *you* like getting socks for Christmas? The Channukkah when I got a stereo console still remains one of my fondest memories, since it sounded a million times better than my dad's old record player, and I could easily make mix tapes to swap with my friends with the thing. If I was 12 today, I'd want an iPod or a CD burner for my birthday. Same shit, new tech. And we weren't rich - dad saved up to buy me something nice, just as I'm not rich today, but I save up for nice gifts for my friends and girlfriend. Christ, it's not the unraveling of society if a kid has something cool.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. I don't think Thtwudbeme is talking about essentials vs. non-essentials

but about showering children with so many material things that they get a sense of entitlement or use their material possessions as a status thing for putting down other kids, or giving them material things instead of attention, the "I'm busy, Kid. Here's an HD TV for your room" type of approach, or cases in which the kids have more Stuff than they know what to do with.

I graduated from high school in 1968, and at that time, a basic stereo (turntable, speakers, and amp/tuner) cost $200, or more like $1000 in today's money. It was the standard high school graduation present.

Electronics have come down in price tremendously, so that an iPod costs the equivalent of $40 in 1968 money. Cell phones are ridiculously cheap, as are DVD players.

It's a different world, but the very cheapness of all these electronic goodies makes it imperative for parents to look at their motivations for buying them. Are they special presents? Rewards? Or just a matter of giving in to whining or peer pressure or wanting to maintain status?

[Midlodemocrat]

55. And each child determines what they consider 'essential'.

I have a friend whose husband retired at 40. They aren't rich. Far from it. They make their kids pay for EVERYTHING. Down here in the Old Dominion, it is very common to live in a subdivision with a pool, like we do. Our pool also has a snack bar, and frankly, the food is pretty good.

My kids eat there all summer long. The summer my dad was dying it totally saved my bacon because I knew that they were at the pool and that there were adults and lifeguards around so things couldn't get out of hand. I sent my kids there and told them to eat, have fun, etc.,

My friend doesn't allow her children to eat at the snack bar. She doesn't allow them to have cable tv, XBox or anything like that. When her daughter went to homecoming, she made her buy the dress. She was 14.

Those kids are going to murder them in their sleep. The only thing that they have learned from these 'lessons' is that their parents are beyond cheap and they resent it. You can't join a pool in a nice community and not allow your kids to experience even a snow cone once in a while. They resent it. Especially when money isn't the issue. Dad just needs to go back to work.

[Fenris]

62. Retired at 40?!?!

That's absurd. Unless you've made beacoup bucks by then and are set for the rest of your life or have some degenerative illness that prevents you from working, you shouldn't be retired at 40. Especially if you have kids.

[Midlodemocrat]

67. No kidding. This guy is the epitome of lazy.

[Oeditpus Rex]

72. You beat me to it

With so many both-parents-working families, and in many cases both parents working long hours, I think there's a tendency for said parents to replace "quality time" with shiny things.

My son turned 10 just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad. Come on, let's play.
Can you teach me to throw?" I said, "Not today
I got a lot to do." He said, "That's okay."
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah.
You know I'm gonna be like him."

[LeftyMom]

54. The problem isn't getting kids those things, the problem is kids who think

that thier parents owe them such things.

[Left Is Write]

86. That's a great way to put it.

My oldest has a sense of entitlement about some things - the iPod not being one of them, as that was a surprise gift and not something she even asked for - and I explain in no uncertain terms just what exactly we do and do not owe her.


Edited to add: I didn't raise her to have a sense of entitlement, and it's certainly not the way I was raised. However, her father is a bit of the "Disneyland Dad" type, and he often undermined my efforts to teach her the value of a dollar (he probably wasn't doing that on purpose, but the result was the same).

[SparklyJr]

59. I'm only 18, and I know it's getting worse among even younger kids:

I work at a fairly nice shopping mall, and everyday I see 12 year olds (or even younger!) wearing designer clothes with designer handbags and matching everything and a nicer cell phone than most adults splurge on... I used to work at a shoe store, and parents would come in every single day to drop $80 on "Heeleys" (the shoes with the wheels on the heels) for their young kids.

When I was their age, I don't remember any of my friends having all this (maybe it has something to do with the recent increase in high-end brand names being popularized and marketed towards young people, via Paris Hilton and names like "Coach," "Juicy Couture" and "Dolce & Gabbana"?). The hardest part to understand is.. these kids are still growing and growing fast! I mean, they're going to grow out of their top-notch fashions in a few months to a year! Either that, or the fads will change and they'll want something new; whichever comes first.

Mom, Dad, I hope I wasn't like this when I was younger. I still remember how I *dreamed* for weeks about that one pair of Limited Too "wide-leg jeans," and I still remember how much they meant to me, and I still appreciate that my parents bought me some sort of those jeans, even if they weren't the exact ones, I remember having a similar pair. Sometimes I still feel like I'm getting too much from my Mom, because she still pays my cell phone bill among other expenses, but I pray that I will never take it for granted and I will somehow pay her pack when I'm older. These kids have no idea how good they have it, but how bad it will be for them in the long run - not only will they be used to having such expensive things (and therefore have to have the lifestyle and job to support it), but they will be used to having these expensive things given to them on a platter.

EDIT: I'm not talking about kids who are given these things for good behavior as positive incentives, or kids who get gifts for Christmas or birthdays (heck, I got an Ipod for Christmas) I'm refering more to those who's lifestyles include extravagant trips to the mall every weekend on Mom and Dad's bill.

[shrike]

117. Why should kids be "rewarded" for good behavior?

Isn't good behavior a given? Aren't courtesy and good manners building blocks for a civil society? Apparently not any more. Apparently they're a way to get treats.

Maybe that was the problem with the young college graduates I once had to supervise. About six of them, I remember: they needed constant reinforcement, constant. They almost seemed outraged when I didn't tell them they did a good job EVERY time. I was a very overworked manager at the time and had enough trouble fending off my superiors. Although they were basically nice kids -- but VERY young emotionally, I might add -- but they were also very high maintenance and exhausting. I was relieved when I didn't have to deal with them anymore.

[leftofthedial]

60. I tried giving my kids a chew toy, but it didn't shut them up

:shrug:

If they want anything beyond water and gruel, the ankle-biting little bastards should have to make Nikes in a sweatshop for it. That will give them a true appreciation of capitalism. Who do the little shitstains think they are anyway?

Besides, it will mean just that much more for me to spend on better booze.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

77. ...

:spray:

More spankings. That's what they need! :eyes:

[leftofthedial]

91. Yeah!

with the yardstick.

[realisticphish]

65. Why, back in the GOOD old days...

but, seriously, none of my friends had anything just handed to them. I worked, I bought my own cell phone (and I pay the monthly bills), my own Ipod, my own computer, and my own tv. My parents help me out with rent, food, etc when I need it, but they don't buy me a whole bunch of shit.


The key, I think, is context. Back in the late 80's, early 90's, say, cell phones were a luxury. Now, they're the norm, pretty much. Ditto with computers. Every generation is going to have different norms for what you "need." I'm sure at one time people were thought extravagant for having TWO pairs of pants

[Heidi]

66. Well, I'm 43, and I understand that how other folks spend their money

is none of my dang business.

[dolo amber]

74. ...

:toast:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

79. Have you ever considered

running for office?

[jpgray]

69. Yes, anything outside one's own experience as a kid is wrong and scary

Because obviously if it didn't contribute to one's own glorious upbringing (which of course led to a perfect specimen of humanity), it can't be any good. It's an ingrained reaction in everyone, but it's a stupid reaction, in my point of view. I played outside every damn day until dark as a kid, but I'm not gonna say that all kids who don't are worthless lazy obese fuckers.

[Nicole]

70. I bought my daughter all those things

and more. I didn't do it to shut her up. I did it because she was a great kid. When she was acting like a bad kid, some of those things were taken away. She learned early on that good behavior had positive results, bad behavior had negative ones. She did work a part time job while in high school & college to buy things I wouldn't buy for her.


I'm also that parent you later posted about buying her a condo to live in while attending college, except I bought a house instead of a condo. I did that because it was a sound investment. She graduated & moved on several years ago. I still rent that house out. I learned that rental property in a college town was & is a good investment. In fact I have bought another house there since then.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

73. When I was a youngster

we listened to crystal radio sets and talked into cans strung together. AND WE LIKED IT! WE LIKED IT!

[Goblinmonger]

80. You had crystal meth sets

when you were a kid?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

99. LOL

Um. No. Well. Maybe. The house down the street blew right off its foundations one night. They SAID it was a gas leak. But in NJ, you never know.

[Dr Fate]

75. I had 45 records, comic books & star-wars figures.

My folks bought the toys for me on birthdays, christmas or when I made good grades.

The comics & records I usually bought with lawn mowing money, etc.

[northzax]

81. and I had everything I ever wanted

I got my first computer in 1983 (age 9) I had a cell phone in my car in 1991 (of course, the car was a ten year old Volvo). I wasn't particularly interested in fancy clothes, but I had them (and I had the best skis, climbing gear, sports gear and everything else I was interested in, including cameras) no, I never had a job in high school. I did have a job in college, but that was for extra beer money. My parents plunked down $15 grand a year for high school and $40k/ year for college. (I'm paying for grad school myself). And I will do the same, if I can, for my children, when I have them, or my sister's children, if I don't have any (and she does, of course) why? because what's the point of being able to do things, if you don't use them to make your child's life easier? What I needed, I got. if you can afford better things, why make your child have second-rate things? it doesn't make sense. Why teach them that stuff is what's important? it's just stuff. Why make a kid work over the summer, when he can spend the summer in Paris? or as a raft guide? or camping? I had a good friend who spent the summer working at the drug store. I spent mine studying foreign languages in France, Italy and Japan. While he stocked shelves and ran the register, I canoed to Hudson's Bay. While he was mopping a floor, I was leading raft trips down the Colorado and bungee jumping in New Zealand. why would you force someone to do the former, when you can provide them with the latter? simply to prove a point?

I knew, and still know, that my parents' love for me was not tied to stuff, it's just stuff. I knew they worked hard (and were lucky) to be able to provide me with the things they felt I needed; we were lucky not to worry about money, or anything like that, so why suffer, if you don't need to? And yes, I knew there were limits, while my best friend drove a brand new Audi, I had my beat up hand me down Volvo. And I knew that if I failed to take care of something, I wasn't getting another one. Of course, if you can't afford it, then that's a good lesson as well.

I still wear the mountain jacket my parents bought me, I still use the skis. it's been 15 years. How many people still wear the coat they wore almost every day a decade and a half ago? I still have shoes they bought me then. Sure, I can afford to replace them, but because I learned to take care of quality equipment, I don't need to.

If you need something, buy the best you can afford, it's a good way to get through life.

[Midlodemocrat]

84. Damn. That is one fine post.

:thumbsup: :applause:

I completely agree.

[hfojvt]

87. I had to get a job when I was about 12

to buy something as educational as my own telescope.

I am 44. Is there a cut-off between us and these young parents?

But I consider i-pods to be quasi essential. Life sucks without them. At least work does. I'm not sure how one would fit for school. I would have, however, loved to have one for the walk to and from school (did I mention it was uphill both ways with snowdrifts ten feet high and the constant threat of sabre-tooth tiger attacks?) or for the paper-route.

My siblings' kids tend to get their own computers when their parents upgrade and still have a working computer just like I have two sitting on the desk in front of me (my 3rd, my old 486 has crashed with some hard drive error and is asking for a system disk.)

[politicat]

90. There's a huge difference between braces and an iPod.

One is medically necessary (since overbites, underbites and crooked teeth lend to TMJ, and if a mouth is too small for teeth, there's a good chance of an infection or abscess, which is directly related to heart problems) and the other can be a toy or a useful study aid, depending on the kid.

For people like me - I get carsick if I try to read on a bus - the iPod (or CD player or MP3 player or walkman) lets me get to books I would otherwise have to miss, and to audit classes there's no way I could ever take. (I'm auditing a Physics course from Berkeley right now.)

As far as phones... not having a child, I can't say whether most kid phones are necessary or if they're just the reaction of over-anxious parents to media driven hype. I'm sure there are people for whom phones are necessary, some of them children. But since I don't even think that MY cellphone is necessary (just convenient) I'm a bad judge.

And I'm sure that part of the story is that yes, it's easier to give a kid what the kid wants than to listen to whining or grumbling. And when a person is already in debt up to their nostrils, what's another $300? It doesn't raise the CC bill by much, and it keeps the peace. Parents who feel guilty about having to work 60 hour weeks to pay for the kid anyway can buy off their consciences with a present here and a present there, telling themselves that they're doing the right thing and giving their child the very best life possible. (Of course, the fact that this tends to lead to a sense of self-importance, self-involvement and entitlement gets lost.)

(Not saying this is RIGHT, mind you, but that's the rationale.)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

93. I'm 19 & have an iPod, a laptop, a cell phone, a dvd player, and a stereo.

My parents paid for all of the above.

For presents at Christmas/birthdays in the past 5 years or so.

I must be a spoiled bitch! And obviously I live in a huuuuuge mansion because my parents make millions of dollars teaching at a highschool. omgzzz.

[Ava]

101. LOL!

:rofl:

[Placebo]

107. Me too!

Shocking. :o

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

124. you must be an ungrateful snob, then...

:D

[elehhhhna]

114. well said, LPFF!

[Ava]

100. my mom got me an iriver

but it was for christmas :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

118. You're still a brat

;)
I used to have an iPod that I won at my graduation party but than it broke, bah I am the most unluckiest person since anyone.

[Ava]

120. you're so mean!

i'm not a brat! :P

i do admit to being spoiled though ;)

[Blue_Tires]

103. well said

i agree, and i'm 29

[LSdemocrat]

105. It's easy to guilt trip parents when they work ungodly hours

I hope the day comes when needlessly working insane hours is seen as unabashed greed and not something virtuous. To be clear, I'm not talking about people who work multiple jobs to put food on the table, but people who work for status items like the big McMansion, the fancy title, and other crap that people waste their money on.

[Placebo]

106. You sound like my dad!

AHH!!!

[Blue_Tires]

111. USA Today story

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/basics/2006-05-14-couples-teens-usat_x.htm

[njdemocrat106]

112. I'm no fan of these hip, trendy gadgets

I'm in my mid-twenties, and I feel no desire to have all these flashy gadgets. I still much prefer buying CDs, and even then I never wanted for a Walkman, let alone for an Ipod. I have a cell phone, but it's more out of necessity than for want (I'm not that much of phone guy). I probably have the least flashiest phone around. No camera, no downloadable MP3 ringtones or streamable videos, no Web access, no high-tech video games, just basically a phone. If kids want to work and save money for this stuff, that's their business, but for me, I save money just in case something unexpected happens (Cars love to break down, and I also just came back from a hard drive crash. Not a pleasant experience).

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

113. You sound exactly like me

I'm in my mid-twenties as well, I'm currently enrolled in college and the majority of the "Kids" are younger than me. I'm probably the only one without a video or camera phone. I don't know what's big deal about myspace or faceoff (Whatever it's call). I see a whole lot of kids on campus with IPods, along with when walking from the parking seeing nothing but newer cars (2000 and up). I feel a real generation gap even though I'm only 5-7 years older than most of them. The thing about saving money for unexpected things happening is so true. I save what money I can because I've always had to be self reliant. I didn't have the folks buying these expensive gadgets; heck I didn't even have the folks paying for basic necessities through out my childhood. When your paying for your own healthcare needs at an early age out of pocket you don't have the luxury of buying extra stuff, you save for a rainy day. Heck I drive a 16 year old car and I just feel if some of these kids where put in similar situation as I've lived, they wouldn't be as materialistic and reliant on their parents.

[skygazer]

121. Ah, this reminds me of the old days

When I was first divorced, my kids were small and I had to go on welfare for a while until I found work.

If you want to guarantee that the rest of the world will take an interest in your groceries, go to the store and buy a cartload of stuff. Include a bag of potato chips, a quart of ice cream and a Hershey bar. Then pay with food stamps. I guarantee every person in the line will be staring at you. Some may even say something.

I have three kids. They're good kids. When I went through those hard times, they went without a lot. Every now and then, I'd buy them a treat and the looks I got - ooh, if looks could kill! But you know what?

It's nobody's business what I buy. And it's none of my business what anyone else buys. And this sanctimonious judging of people, about whom you know nothing except that they've bought their kid something, is mean spirited and miserable. How do you know what their motivations are? How do you know the kid hasn't worked for what he/she's gotten? How do you know it wasn't a birthday gift?

Why in the world would anyone worry about what other people buy for their kids? :banghead:

[miss_american_pie]

123. Oh yes, the candy bar and soda on food stamps debates

Great way to raise one's blood pressure.

[Zomby Woof]

125. I must be a geezer

What the fuck is a "razor phone"?