Barry Bonds hits #714!

[Drum]

Just now, 2nd inning of a game against Oakland:
Barry Bonds---Mister Asterisk---has just tied Babe Ruth's record for homeruns
(but this does not mean he is one away from setting a new record.)

no link, just passing on the news

[cyberpj]

1. self deleted.

in an attempt to curtail my reactionary excesses.

[Drum]

3. noted. nt

[madrchsod]

2. who the fuck cares

he`s a disgrace to baseball...

[adarling]

exactly

they should suspend him or make the record null and void. He didn't do it without steroids or whatever else he pumped into his body.

[lebkuchen]

9. Has that been proven?

That Bonds uses steroids?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594

Even if the substances Bonds took were steroids, Rains said they were not banned by baseball at the time and the slugger believed they were natural. Bonds also maintains the substances did nothing to aid his rise as one of the game's greatest home run hitters, Rains said.

"Barry was tested several times this year and the results of those tests were negative," said Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris.

"He put together statistically one of the most remarkable seasons ever," Borris said in an interview. "There are people in this world whose sole purpose is to try and figure out ways on how to undermine the accomplishments of others."

[Rufus T. Firefly]

72. Well...

Let's see...he suddenly gets HUGELY bulked up late in his career, then when steroid testing starts, he takes a year off, then comes back MUCH smaller.

Nothing suspicious there.

To be fair though, if they were allowed under the rules, then what's the problem? Blame the MLB for allowing it. Mark McGwire did the same thing - small guy, suddenly got huge...only he retired before it came back on him. "Creatine" my ass.

Again, to be fair, they call steroids "performance enhancing." I guess so, but only if you already have the skills to hit a ball flying at 90 mph.

That brings something to mind - the Olympics drug testing the snowboarders and banning them for marijuana. THAT sure as hell isn't "performance enhancing." If they can do that stuff while they're high, they deserve extra points. Reminds me of the old SNL bit on Weekend Update "The All-Drug Olympics" where the Olympics rings were replaced by pills and Phil Hartman played a Russian weightlifter who rips his own arms off trying to pick up a ton or something like that. :-)

[JackDragna]

130. Read "Game of Shadows."

The book pretty well proves Bonds used steroids. Even if current tests are negative now, that only means they miss the more modern steroids, in addition to synthetics like HGH.

[MADem]

4. Mister ASTERISK!

Well, he shoulda done it with hotdogs and beer, like the Babe did...!

:rofl:

[lebkuchen]

16. According to this article, he's in much better shape than the Babe

Guess you don't have to be a raging alcoholic to hit a lot of homeruns~!

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2004/12/espncom_-_mlb_-_report_bonds_unknowingly_used_steroids/

Bonds said that, to his knowledge, Anderson had only given him legal drugs to treat his arthritis and fatigue, which were especially bad when the Giants would play a day game after a night game. He said the trainer brought the substances to the Giants’ clubhouse, where Bonds would use them. “It was in the ballpark … in front of everybody,” Bonds testified. “I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn’t hide it.” However, Bonds testified that the products didn’t help ease his suffering, and eventually he stopped using them. “And I was like, to me, it didn’t even work,” he said. “You know me, I’m 39 years old. I’m dealing with pain. All I want is pain relief, you know? And you know, to recover, you know, night games to day games. That’s it. And I didn’t think the stuff worked. I was like, ‘Dude, whatever,’ but he was my friend. “… If it’s a steroid, it’s not working,” he told the grand jury.

[JVS]

19. Roids are better than booze, but kill the spirit of the game

[lebkuchen]

26. Spirits kill the spirit?

Seems like a lot of folks feel dispirited about a drunken white guy's record about to be broken. Do they interpret this historical record-breaking as a put-down to all drunken white guys across America?

[JVS]

30. Alcohol isn't a performance enhancing drug, that's the difference

The mention of booze and food are just playful jabs at Ruth's weakneses for those things. The record was broken long ago by Hank Aaron and I don't see any complaints about that. It's just a Bonds thing, people love to hate him. As a native of Pittsburgh, I can testify to that. We loved him when he was on the Pirates, but he's been despised since he left.

[lebkuchen]

35. Hank Aaron needed a bodyguard before and after

breaking Babe's record.

[JVS]

39. I was talking about within this thread

[BooScout]

40. Maybe.........

But he still broke that record without the use of steroids.

I fail to see what the subject of racism in baseball 35 years ago has to do with steroid use by players of any color now.

[JVS]

42. Obviously people who dislike Bonds are terrible racists

:eyes:

[BooScout]

47. LOL............what about those that LOVE Aaron & hate Bonds?

What does that make us? Confused????:crazy:

[JVS]

49. Closeted racists

[lebkuchen]

84. No need to be closeted. There is plenty of that right out in the open.

[JVS]

92. Yeah, it extends to politics too. I can't believe that Alan Keyes isn't..

president. It obviously has nothing to do with his whacked out politics or personal behavior. It's because he's black.

[MADem]

118. Well, to take the flip side of your argument

We KNOW why most black folks don't support Dumbya...it's not because of his discriminatory policies that brutally affect people of color, deny them opportunity, and encourage hatred...it's just because he's a whitey! No other reason!!!

Do I need to use one of these things?? :sarcasm:

[lebkuchen]

83. They didn't all used to love him. Many still hate him

for breaking the Babe's record.

Did you ever watch Ken Burns' Baseball? Enlightening stuff.

What's sad is that there were a lot of Josh Gibson's and Satchel Paige's. We just didn't get to meet them. My mom got Paige's autograph once. Wish I knew where it was.

[MrPrax]

108. That WAS very good, Ken Burn's

Baseball.
I watched the whole thing and seemed to enjoy it much more than his 'Civil War' series...def better than New York or Jazz.

'Baseball' does a very good and noble job of highlighting the Negro Leagues and some of the massive talent that must have been more true than baseball legend. But we will never know.

To call Bonds--Mr. Asterisk?

I think that is fair IF those that got their records during the segregation of baseball ALSO have an asterisk against their names, so that the TRUE records of a UNIFIED baseball league are not tainted.

To be really mean and play the race card, one could think out loud--maybe a drunken fat middle aged man like Babe Ruth got his records coz he only played white talent...?

Nawh...I wouldn't stoop to that level... :evilgrin:

[misanthrope]

128. "New York" was done by Ken Burns' brother.**nm

*

[MrPrax]

145. Thx...

Well that explains why the tone is the same, but the quality and thoroughness was sure lacking...

Me Bad, but thank you for the correction...not really something I would go and check, but I do like to be accurate most of the time.

[misanthrope]

146. I agree...

...I turned it on one night while flipping channels and found the tone and aesthetic to be quite Ken Burns-ian. As I watched it, I grew puzzled since I hadn't heard of him tackling that subject. I looked it up online--they have a fairly interesting site--and found out the reason for the Burns-ian reminiscence.

[lebkuchen]

59. If Bonds says he didn't know the substance was steroids, and if

the substance was legal to use at the time anyway, what difference does it make?

There were still Negro Leagues five years before I was born. Those leagues were created to keep white players out.

Racism is still alive in the US, and baseball and its records have had a tendency to manifest that.

[JVS]

66. What difference does it make if he claims he knew or not?

If he took roids, he did something that greatly diminishes his accomplishment because of the performance enhancing nature of steroids. And that's just the way things look when we give him the benefit of the doubt on the matter.

[lebkuchen]

69. Claiming "BONDS USED STEROIDS" when to his knowledge he wasn't

using steroids, not to mention, the substance was legal to use at the time, does not make Bonds a liar in my book. I can't speak for his egotism, but I don't know what difference THAT makes.

[lastliberalintexas]

80. And Pete Rose denies ever betting on baseball

:shrug:

[lebkuchen]

85. Deconstruct each case based on what we know.

I'm not suggesting we lump them all together, as you are.

[MADem]

93. Yep....and that got him into the Hall of Fame.......

...if he buys a ticket to get in like every other visitor!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

[MADem]

120. Ahhhh, but HOTDOGS....those mighty hotdogs!!!

Eat a Fenway Frank, hit one outta the PAAAAAHK!!!

[MADem]

41. Hank Aaron did it...with class!

The record has already BEEN broken. It's just that this is the first time anyone's done it with juice....

[lebkuchen]

61. There wasn't much class shown Aaron in return

He was called a "dirty nigger," among many other epithets, and his life was continually threatened.

It's too bad Bonds hasn't just kept his mouth shut, as Robinson and Aaron were constantly told to do. Maybe he'd be forgiven by baseball fans for his use of a legal substance (at the time he used it) as long as he's not seen as an "uppity nigger."

[MADem]

74. Well, almost 98 percent of the sportswriters seemed to like him

...well enough to put him in the Hall of Fame.

Hank Aaron
Henry Louis Aaron
Hammerin Hank, The Hammer

Induction Information
Elected to Hall of Fame by Baseball Writers in 1982, Player
406 votes on 415 ballots 97.83%

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/aaron_hank.htm

The assholes will always be with us. And just because they shout the loudest, or say the cruelest things, doesn't make them right, strong, or the majority.

Edit/must proofread

[lebkuchen]

81. The assholes were the majority when Aaron couldn't travel with the team

Willie Mays, likewise, had many threats against him. I'm sure famous black people today are constantly bombarded with threats; they just choose not to acknowledge those threats publicly.

In general, I don't think race can be dismissed as a factor in terms of what drives people's hatred of Barry Bonds.

[MADem]

91. But you are assuming that everyone with a problem with him is a racist

Or at least, that is how you are coming across.

As I have said elsewhere, anyone with his "issues"--a shitty attitude, yelling at reporters, and his latest, the refusal to sign the baseball for the Marine, who was a FAN...I mean, come on, he's an ASSHOLE. He'd be an UNKNOWN asshole if this juicing + homer business didn't ice his cake.

Anyone behaving like he has wouldn't be getting much favorable press, if they were pink, blue or green. Suggesting that he's suffering from racial hatred instead of overblown hubris, and trying to put him in the same category as heroes like Robinson, Mays, et. al, is close to criminal.

He's a JERK, they weren't. That's my take on it, anyway.

[lebkuchen]

103. I'm saying that race can't be dismissed as a factor in people hating him

for breaking a HR record, especially when looking at the evidence. That Bonds is "egotistical" seems to be the biggest "white" mark against him.

Race was why Clinton was run out of office--for being "the first black president." The US has a history based on racism, and so does baseball.

[MADem]

109. No, he isn't EGOTISTICAL, he's an ASSHOLE

He's not a 'cocky kinda guy,' he's a JERK. He's rude and, unlike the players who know how the system works, refuses to market himself. There's a subtle difference.

Baseball is a fan-based endeavor. If you want to be a shithead, you have to ALWAYS be at the top of your game, EVERY game, or the fans will turn on you. If you do the public relations spiel, you can afford to have an off-week or two, and you will be forgiven, and even be the object of empathy and sympathy. It's a personal thing for the people who fill the seats, and he doesn't deliver. He gives them NO REASON to root FOR him.

And unless you can see through your monitor, I'd caution you about guessing what color folks are from their typing...you can't assume, you just might be mistaken.

If it really makes you feel better to think that this issue is about race, well, have at it. But it's not the case. Barry Bonds is a major league jerk, and that is why he gets no sympathy.

[BooScout]

82. Bullshit........

Yes there were racists threatening Aaron....but you also conveniently seem to forget that a lot of other people stood up for him at the time including the widow of Babe Ruth. That still has nothing to do with steroid use.

Your continuing to try and inject racism into the steroid controversy goes nowehere and has no merit what so ever.

[lebkuchen]

86. I didn't say that everyone on the planet hated Aaron

That you could dig up one person who stood up for him, the white wife of one of baseball's greats, shows that Aaron needed plenty of support. You've proven my point.

[BooScout]

95. What is your point?

Besides the fact that you think Bonds hung the moon and most of the rest of the baseball fan world thinks he sucks?

Your injecting racism into the argument shows how desparate your are to win the debate. When in doubt villify the opposition regardless of whether the argument has merit.

Psssssst... you loose........people hate Barry because he's an asshole and a cheater. It's as simple as that.

[JVS]

102. The point is because Aaron was hated for being black, Bonds' fans...

get to pretend that he is a victim of the same racism. Despite the fact that there are a host of beloved black athletes who are respected and don't get the (obviously racially motivated :eyes: ) accusations of steroid abuse, such as Michael Jordan, Jerome Bettis, Walter Peyton, and many others.

[MADem]

104. And mostly because he is an asshole, I think!

If he were the type to sell himself, to buy blocks of tickets for homeless kids, to do the charity work, to smile and joke when interviewed, to charm, to be a team player, to sign a damn baseball for a little kid or an Iraq war vet every once in a while without demanding cash first, there would be so many more people rallying to his side, and pulling the "Maybe he really didn't KNOW" excuse out of their butts. He's adversarial, and doesn't understand, or doesn't care about, public perception.

But like I said, perfect storm. He'd be an unknown asshole if not for the confluence of events.

He didn't hang the moon, he hung himself, with his attitude!

[lebkuchen]

105. That the Black Leagues were not welcomed in the white leagues

uniformly, with the exception of a handful of businessmen who realized they could make money off it--point #1.

Point #2--You don't have enough evidence to condemn Bonds. Egotism is a matter of opinion, and the courts have not convicted Bonds of illegal drug use.

A case could be built, however, for not wearing knickers, since the Babe had to.

[oldtime dfl_er]

43. Well, it's good for the t-shirt biz...

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/1425893

[Mz Pip]

5. Can't stand the guy

He's rude and he used drugs to beef himself up. Then he lied about it. I am so not impressed with him.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[lebkuchen]

11. So, he hasn't admitted using drugs.

Then how do you know he does?

[blue sky at night]

23. just curious.........

wondering if he was white, then it would be alright.

[BooScout]

36. Don't inject race into it.

McQuire is a cheater too.

I care about Aaron's record falling to guys like Bonds. Bond cheated to get as far as he has. Race has nothing to do with it.

Me being from Atlanta originally may have a bit to do with me caring about the fact that Aaron is the Home Run King though.

[MADem]

46. I looked askance at McGwire, frankly

He looked like the Michelin man...down to his color.

[Mz Pip]

88. Nope

When I found out McGwire used drugs I lost all respect for him, too. Not everything is about race. :eyes:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[lebkuchen]

106. It wouldn't be about race w/McGwire. He's white.

[BooScout]

110. So by your reasoning......

....it's ok that we dislike McGuire because of steroids but not Bonds.

Your reasoning is just a tad off tonight.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

138. He's rude?

I'd recommend that you research Cal Ripken Kirby Puckett, Steve Carlton, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Juan Marichal.

Respect the way he dominates the game like nobody you have ever seen.

[Scurrilous]

6. Barry Bonds...

...the Asterisk of Swat.

[mac56]

7. I predict that he will now hit 715

and then retire.

[Divine Discontent]

12. dream on....

he's so damn egotistical, that his mind is conditioned to think he can go on forever, until late in this year when he's hitting .240 with 22 HR's and 71 RBI in mid September and the repetitive questioning of "will you be retiring when the Giants play their last game this season?", gets to him, and he realizes he'd have to humiliate himself again next year and bat around .200 and hopefully get the rest of the 20+ HR he needs to pass Aaron, and accepts he's just "second best", which will make him start bitching that he was walked so much that it clearly is obvious that he was the most feared player bar none...

believe me, he'll start being reallllly bitchy when the end is in his field of vision....



www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <---- Check it out! anti-bush & pro-dem 06 & 08 stickers!

[lebkuchen]

13. You don't like him because he's egotistical?

Why not simply be happy for him for tying a record no matter what his personality?

[BooScout]

22. I don 't like him because he's a lying cheat.

Steroids are cheating and he uses them. He deserves to be thrown out of baseball.

[lebkuchen]

27. Please provide evidence since a poster above says Bonds hasn't admitted it

[BooScout]

33. Here ya go....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594

"Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season."

----------------

Read the whole article. He says he didn't know what he was taking and trusted his trainer. I say Bullshit.

[lebkuchen]

38. Thanks.

He wasn't found to be lying under oath. He said he didn't know they were steroids and that he was open about their use, and that what he was taking was allowed at the time.

Is baseball so hallowed that Bonds is still considered to have tarnished the sport under these circumstances?

[BooScout]

44. Yup......

And btw, not too many people beleive that shit about 'he didn't know' either. He may have skirted by with the 'I'm a innocent victim' scenario, but most people don't buy it.

Put it this way.........if you were Henry Aaron, would you think it fair that your record fell to some guy using performance enhancing drugs? I doubt it.

[lebkuchen]

67. Aaron didn't have a personal trainer or work out as does Bonds.

Nor did he have the high-tech equipment/dietary regime that players use today.

Is that fair?

Eventually, Aaron's record will be broken again and again, as will Bonds'. Aaron left a stronger legacy than his record, for which he'll always be remembered. I'm not worried about him.

[Divine Discontent]

37. sorry, but you're not getting me to agree with you, here's why

I wouldn't be happy for a man that ties a record when he used steroids to do so. Claiming benign ignorance that your trainer says, you rub this on you and it'll help, and you don't ask what's in it??? BULL - SHIT lebkuchen... you can be happy for him all you want, I'm not. if you like him, congrats, you're one of the few. and no, I'm not happy for anyone who breaks anything when they are an ego-maniac that is despised by anyone who gets away from playing ball with him, and tells about how much of a jerk he is to be around, and he's not even the speck of the dust at home under real heroes like Cal Ripken's or Eric Davis' fingernails! I've watched him from when he was a young man in 1986, and he's never been a nice person but he's gotten worse over the past 10 years, he's self-centered, egotistical, and rude, but the steroids have that kind of effect on one's mind...


Bonds hit about 450 HR's in his first 14 Seasons in the Majors


Bonds hit about 250 HR's in the 5 years that followed!

again, bull shit! because that 250 figure would've been significantly higher, still, if he hadn't been walked over 150 times a year, because of the prolific pace he was bashing home runs out of the park at 35-40 years of age! And he looked like someone had plugged his mouth up to an air pump and filled with 50 pounds of air (false muscles due to "the cream and the clear" he was rubbing all over himself giggling about the TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR HE WAS SIGNED FOR AFTER THE HOMERS STARTING COMING QUICKLY, and supposedly not knowing what he was putting on himself, again, bull shit!)

you admire him all you want...

I only admire and feel good for people that don't cheat and players who are nice regardless of not having eye popping HOF numbers, like - Craig Biggio, David & Buddy Bell, Carlton Fisk, Dwight Evans, Barry Larkin, Tim Salmon, and not complete muscle heads that use questionable substances, so that when they sneeze, they don't throw out their back and have to "retire", like Slammin' Sammy, and "if I don't retire my legs are gonna fall off" Mark McGwire!

Bonds is right up there with Rafael "I hit 40 hr's a year after hitting 10-20 for years!" Palmeiro.

They tarnish the game, and you're blinded by MASSIVE HOME RUNS and the love the long ball not to ignore their big ass stats as nothing more than the equivelent of a 14 year old playing baseball against 10 year olds, the 14 yr old is going to excel due to muscle composition... I roll my eyes at lovers of Bonds... what a shame!

That was carthatic, thanks for making me state how much I despise his cheating! I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at him, I just wish you'd not support a cheater, and that's what he is.

[lebkuchen]

45. If the "cream" incident hadn't happened,

would you then dismiss his HRs because of your hatred of his arrogance?

As I said, I follow the World Cup (good luck to the US winning, and maybe introducing Bush to the game!), and you obviously know baseball. I appreciate reading your insight into the issue.

Thanks for taking the time to explain why people are emotional about Barry Bonds.

[Divine Discontent]

52. I'd say it's comparing apples to oranges

because you're asking a what if...


simply, if Bonds wasn't a cheater and made his name a household name in 2002, he would have worked his way to to 600 HR's and retired as a surly hard to get to know slugger that was a great 5 tool player,

instead, he told other ballplayers (I saw a story on espn) that he was ticked at the attention that McGwire and Sosa got in 98, and what do ya know, a grown man doesn't ask what was in the cream and the "clear" he was rubbing all over himself.

the beauty of sport, is to become the most natural, swift, and strong athlete you can be, without resorting to a chemical enhancement.

He's liked by 5% of baseball, imo, from talking to people who love baseball like me.

And I just love your men kissing each other in World Football, so sexy! lol...

peace

[jaysunb]

76. A couple questions for you...

since you seem to have invested quite a bit of time developing your hatred and rage.
1) what about the homers and MVP awards prior to " your " accusation that he somehow wanted to be like Sammy and Mark.

2) do you have any opinions about Tommy John and his " bionic " enhancements ?

[Divine Discontent]

107. hatred & rage? no, I save that for the bush administration, junior.

you get no detailed response for saying what you did, I save real responses for the big kids.

[jaysunb]

117. At 63 years young

I consider your "Jr." swipe a compliment.

Why won't you address the questions I put to you ???? The insults are ok if you stick to the subject.

[mac56]

68. What, is he your uncle or something?

:eyes:

You're straining to defend the indefensible.

[lastliberalintexas]

87. Without the drugs people would probably feel differently

By all accounts, Ty Cobb was the louisest SOB to ever play baseball- rude, arrogant and racist, even for the times in which he played. Yet most people can separate the man from the player, and admit that he was also one of the best all around baseball players of all time.

Without the drugs, Bonds would probably be in the same boat. Not beloved by any means, but a grudging respect for his talent. But with the drugs, one doesn't really know how much "talent" there was to respect.

[MADem]

121. "Manny being Manny"

Manny can be a total asswipe, but he gets away with most of it because he brings home the bacon. Let him have an off season though, and continue to be a jerk, well, he'd probably have some trouble....

[jschurchin]

8. Congratulations to the Steroid King!!

Perhaps if he didn't cheat, people would give a flying fuck!!!

[lebkuchen]

10. Please provide info that he cheats

I follow the World Cup, not baseball. But I'd like to read up on Bonds' cheating, as you put it.

Thanks.

[jaysunb]

18. They can't answer your question...

they can't even tell you about the 7 MVP's or the 500 homers he hit before the steroid accusations.

Nothing but a hate fest that exemplifies the group think of many Americans, and sadly, that includes a number of folks who visit this site. :evilfrown:

[lebkuchen]

21. Maybe they're busy e-mailing their "congratulations"

the kind of "kudos" Jackie Robinson and Hank Aaron received so many of.

[BooScout]

24. He's now admitted to steroid use.....

But says he didn't knwo they were steroids and the trainer lied to him........Yea right. He's a lying cheat. He deserves no accolades.

[lebkuchen]

29. He says he didn't know they were steroids, and

whatever he was taking, in front of everybody in the locker room, was admissable at the time. Doesn't sound like anything that will keep him out of the Hall of Fame.

What's the big deal?

[BooScout]

34. The big deal....

Is that Aaron and Ruth managed to achieve their records without performance enhancers. They can put Bonds into the Hall of Fame a thousand times over, it means nothing to many. Cheating to win pretty much just sucks on principal alone.

[lebkuchen]

75. Shouldn't today's players use the same equipment as The Greats?

Eat the same diet, not train, not work out, and so forth, just to make it even?

[Zynx]

77. Sports are a display of natural athleticism and training.

They are not a display of what monsters science can devise.

[JVS]

78. Except for Weightlifting and Warsaw Pact Swimming

Those are about the monsters

[lebkuchen]

96. Not during Aaron's time.

He didn't work out or train. He didn't have a personal trainer.

That players today do, in addition to better equipment, creates an uneven playing field "off the bat." How would you like to have your 1920s HR record beaten by some (egotistical) player because he wasn't wearing Keds and corduroy knickers?

Is that fair?

[Zynx]

99. I believe I had a comment about natural athleticism.

Besides, selective players throughout time have practiced more than others in their own time periods. The differences are minimal compared the these enhancement substances. Bonds' slugging percentage increased from around 600 to over 800 in his later years suddenly and without reason. http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

His steroid use can be proven very easily and it had a meaningful impact on his record. That is very different than the marginal improvements that one gets by lifting a few more weights.

[BooScout]

100. Well for someone who didn't train.......

ate the wrong foods and was out of shape..........Aaron's record has stood for a good long while now.......so he must have done something right......that even players with all the modern world have to offer can't even come close to him without resporting to drugs.

[Divine Discontent]

112. screw your "hate fest" comments.

what a weak attack AND on top of that to imply that we're all the "bad guys" on DU, unlike everyone else... um, you're the one throwing out those insults, not me.



I love these bonds fans coming on trying to maintain their fascination over someone that destroyed anything he'd previously done, by being a lousy CHEAT.

bonds is not a god, anyone defending him now is only in love with his big bat, as I said earlier



who gives a crap if you treated your newspaper boy with respect for over 5 years and made him & his family think of you as the greatest guy on the block for giving him $100 christmas bonuses, then all of sudden you start yelling at him very peculiarly, for riding through your grass until one day you shoot him for it. is the guy supposed to be respected for the loving gifts he gave him, and the shooting is ignored. I could make a hundred non-sport and sport anologies out of what Bonds has done. The point is, when you try and play DUMB (like Rummy and Condi do constantly) about the facts, and say you didn't know the "cream" and the "clear" were steroids, but you chose not to ask, cause the adult told me they were good for me and my multi-million dollar career, and my possible HOF placement, then frankly, you become a NATIONAL JOKE, and an annoying piece of crap that doesn't deserve to be loved for his previous glories... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[k_jerome]

126. hate much? nt.

[bluestateguy]

14. Should I have chicken parmesan for dinner tonight?

What movie should I rent?

Oh, that reminds me, I need to wash my floor.

[lebkuchen]

17. Sounds like you'll be eating white meat, exclusively.

[sakabatou]

15. 42 more to go

[goclark]

20. Barry Bonds has won many a game to the cheers of many fans

Now, because he has an ego, he is to be dismissed.

Now, because he supposedly took steroids, he is to be dismissed.

Now because he is close to breaking the Babe's record, he is to be put down and dismissed.


Let's dismiss Lance Armstrong!

Oh, I forgot, he said he didn't take steroids and he is a "nice guy." that LOVES George Bush.

[BooScout]

25. He didn't just 'supposedly' take them he took them....

He has admitted that much in a court of law. Says he was fooled by a trainer. Bullshit.

[goclark]

113. He would not be the first or the last who took steroids from trainers

They have been doing this for years!

[lebkuchen]

139. As have cyclists.

Depends on one's definition of the drug, I guess. Considering how much pro athletes are paid (Bond's gets $14 mil, I think), I can see where it would be tempting to an athlete to boost one's agility, strength, and endurance. Banana shakes and protein powder can do just so much in a tight competitive field where the rewards for being on top are great.

I lost interest in spectator sports because of the huge sums paid to players and the overemphasis on the "superstar" status of athletes' careers at the expense of other topics more important, like Bush's world takeover.

Turn on American Forces Radio almost anytime of day, and you'll hear sports DJ's arguing with callers about this player or that team--pablum for the military masses so they don't start wondering why we really invaded Iraq. It's nice to have a pastime, but when it ends up being a lot of time spent on things that don't really matter, especially in a military venue where other subjects, like politics, do matter, there needs to be a balance, IMO.

[Exultant Democracy]

55. I wonder what yuppies would wear on their wrists

if Lance Armstrong had been born black? Even money that he would have gone down in the history books as another Milton Campbell (or not in the history books would be more appropriate.) Either that or he would have been torn apart with his name and achievements tarnished based on accusations of steroid use.

[Jim Sagle]

28. _

:boring:

[DS1]

31. Fine. Put him in the hall of fame

even if it's only piss off the indignant baseball fans who actually believe he's the only one using the juice

[MADem]

53. I think a LOT of them were, of all shades and accents, like the UN

Funny how so many of them have "slimmed down" this year.

If you really want to get to the heart of the matter, you can put plenty of blame on the baseball commish, and his crew. They knew what was going on, and looked the other way, because they thought that home runs were the thing that put fans in the seats, and the way to get them was to have big hitters, even if they got big by ingesting performance enhancing substances.

But it still ain't a good thing, for the sport, and for the kids who watch it, and think it's OK to take an easy way out...so what if you end up with heart problems when you're 45! Hell, that's OOOOOOLD, they think...until they hit 45, and realize it's YOUNG!!!!

Strength is helpful, but there's nothing like a good, controlled swing and natural, reliable hand-eye coordination. Ted Williams never looked like an overbloated behemoth, and who knows what he might have accomplished had he not taken time off to go to war.

[goclark]

149. I agree,It is a horrible thing to take steroids

in order to improve your abilities.

They are dangerous.

I recall dating a major league football player in the 70's.
He said that whenever they had a football injury on the field they would shoot them up with all kinds of drugs!

He was not talking about SOME of the players, he was talking about ALL of the players.

It was a shame then and it is still a shame.

I would bet money that Barry Bonds may be the poster guy for steroids but there are a whole lot of them that didn't make the Steroid Cut for what ever reason.

So, Bonds won't get the glory for breaking Babe Ruth's record.
That should make a lot of people very happy.
It will prove that Barry Bonds was not much of a player anyway. :sarcasm:

Poor Barry, no bucks and no glory!

[Zynx]

73. That's like saying, "Well, other Congressmen break the law so let's

give the Republicans a pass.". I'm sorry. Bullshit.

[JVS]

79. Baseball should have started a thorough purge several years ago

[Zynx]

89. So now because it didn't Barry Bonds is allowed to shit all over the sport

???

[JVS]

90. hell no.

Starting a thorough purge now is what should be done

[DS1]

94. Yeah, but this is sports, thus it's all bullshit

irrelevant bullshit, when you truly look at the big picture

[DisgustedTX]

32. RACISM! RACISM! Baloney

As a pearly white poopdog of limited mental capacity, I will also not recognize the totals of Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, or MARK McGUIRE for the same reason.

I despise Alex Rodriguez, but he & Pujols have the best non-juiced opportunities to create a TRUE challenge to Mays, Ruth, & Aaron.

[xmas74]

65. Second for Pujols.

He deserves more attention than Bonds. I've been following him since high school. A great player and a wonderful person.

[columbusdem]

48. Whoop-dee-friggin-do

The records of Bonds, Canseco, Sosa and McGwire, and anybody else who used steroids or corked bats, if it can be proven, should be expunged from the record books.

[BlueManDude]

50. How many dingers did BB hit off of pitchers who were on 'roids?

Plenty I bet. Sorry to shatter the delusions many fans have that there were 5 guys on 'roids who wrecked the game for everyone else.

Much of the venon thrown at Bonds does have a racial component to it whether people want to admit it or not.

[flvegan]

51. Close to 714, most likely.

People that think the vast majority of pro athletes aren't on something that would be considered "cheating" are fooling themselves.

[Divine Discontent]

56. oh PUH LEASE!

even self admitted former user in the 90's, Canseco, said it's not all the professional athletes, as you guys are saying... you'd have quite a few non-users in your faces for even insinuating they did such stupid things.

players that just retired several years ago, Cal Ripken, Eric Davis, Wade Boggs, w/o doubt in my belief of baseball, never took any steroids, and 2 of them are HOF, and the other would have been if not for being so damn skinny and breaking himself for 30 games every year.

You insult the majority of players who haven't touched the shit.

I can't even begin of thinking of scrappers like Craig Biggio, Greg Maddux, Jeter and Albert Pujols ever doing steroids.

[flvegan]

57. You don't know much about performance enhancement, do you?

[Divine Discontent]

98. not a lot

I do know there are huge plastic bottles with muscle growth supplements that are not "steroids" that get shot in your ass. I comprehend there are pills or powders you mix from GNC or order out of the muscle mags that claim no creatine or steroid components. please enlighten me of what you know in a paragraph or two. thanks.

[flvegan]

116. To suggest that "cheating" is limited to

"steroids" is like saying that getting high is limited to pot.

I'm not suggesting that Barry didn't use steriods, which is, to me, cheating. However, to dump on him, like he's the only one, is just dumb.

Baseball is a demanding game with a demanding schedule. It's safe to assume that many players, especially pitchers, are likely abusing painkillers and anti-inflammatories. Ephedra is a banned (illegal) substance above 10 mg. Check the lockers for some of that. What of the players that took andro/norandro (both dione and diol), made famous by McGwire? Not even illegal, and certainly not banned by MLB (which didn't ban steroids until what, 2002?).

Creatine is a performance enhancer. L-Glutamine could be called one. If a player has nitric oxide supplements, is he cheating? AKG? All legal, all legit, and all worthy of consideration. Bonds just entered his 40's, I believe. What if he was on DHEA, or Tribulus to raise his natural testosterone? All legal. Cheating?

I think what many fail to see here, and trust me, I'm very much on your side (my childhood hero was Yaz, btw), is that there's a lot of cheating, in most sports, by definition. Bonds did a whole HELLUVA lot more than this "cream" and "clear" shit (which, to be honest, was quite ingenius...the "clear" was used to offset the higher level of testosterone from the "cream" simply to fool drug tests). Does he deserve the asterisk? Sure, but then, so do a great many of our modern day sports cowboys (and sadly, cowgirls).

[Divine Discontent]

122. if what you say is true, and I agree most players use

mixes for strength and a small share use non banned substances, than nothing in the past 10 years is worthy of note sports-wise...

I respect the oldies, mostly people that started pre 80's, and only a few after then...

I will lose interest in sport if people like Bonds aren't punished in the record books, and even more so, banned for lying about knowing it wasn't drugs... what a louse.

[k_jerome]

135. yeah, ripken was more than likely on speed. nt.

[BooScout]

54. Bullshit

YOU inject racism in it to further your argument that Bonds is wonderful.

I could give a shit what color Bonds is. I do care about Henry Aaron's records due to the fact that I come from Atlanta originally and don't think it's fair to use performance enhancers to win in ANY sport.

Frankly Baseball has done a piss poor job of dealing with steroid use by it's players because they knew damn well that more hits and runs sold more tickets and made advertising revenues skyrocket.

[BlueManDude]

114. You think all these white guys in the stands

and on talk radio making jackasses of themselves and working themselves into a frothy anger like Binds is worse than Osama or something and has ruined their precious idealism would be acting the same way if McGwire were still playing? Spare me.

Race is a factor here.

[Divine Discontent]

60. racism is alive and well

but not from me


my favorite player of all time is five-tool superstar Eric 'the red' Davis, who's penchant for leaping over walls to steal homers (2 in 2 games from the Cards slugger Jack Clark) and slamming into wrigley's bricks to catch possible doubles, only to hurt himself, made him a HERO in my heart, despite all the criticism he endured for being a woosie for not playing after getting injured.

Davis was referred to as a "million dollar nigger" along with Dave Parker by, then owner, Marge Schott, and the right-winged city of Cincinnati certainly insinuated that a black man was making $3 million and being lazy, however, I accounted them to jealous fools lashing out at a difference they could latch onto.

I think Bonds is just a fricking JERK and he used steroids for YEARS. To me, he's either a complete IDIOT, and complete idiots are rare (how one ascended into the white house is amazing), or a complete LIAR who cheated knowingly to get the attention he felt he deserved as a great player.

[MADem]

64. I really don't think so

If it were Mark McGwire in the same spot, he'd take the heat just as much. It has to do with the scandal breaking, and the record drawing near, AND attitude. Perfect storm.

People are pissed off at fake shit, and when you buy a ticket that costs a fortune to sit in a ballpark and watch a game, you want, for your money and in consideration of the salaries these guys make, the REAL thing, not shortcuts.

That said, the problem WAS everywhere. Not just with this guy--he's simply the symbol, because he was close to the record, said to be juiced, AND, on top of everything else, he was an asshole to the press, in interviews, and on camera. He just didn't generate much sympathy for himself.

Baseball is a business. The guys who play it for a living are businessmen. He doesn't have much business sense, in that he didn't market his 'product' like Sammy Sosa, Johnny Damon, David Ortiz, or some of the other "beloved" players, who give props to fans, smile, do the photo op, give the pleasant interview, sign the ball for the little kid, and so on. A sunny disposition and a bit of humility, even if it is calculated, can go a long way with fans. He just couldn't be bothered, and that hurt him.

The icing on the cake came recently, when the Marine, just back from Iraq, and a FAN, caught one of his homers, and he REFUSED to sign it, but then made the kid sign a release for his new reality show, for having his picture taken with him.

The ESPN show "Bonds on Bonds" is supposed to give viewers life of Bonds. But reality is better when there is no script.

Bonds provides plenty of entertainment even when he's not hitting home runs. The kid who catches the home-run ball asks Bonds to sign it and he refuses, but then agrees to pose for a picture with him. There's a catch, though: The kid has to sign — in this case a release to be on "Bonds on Bonds." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002996883_bonds16.html

No class. None at all.

[Zynx]

71. If it were racial, why am I defending Hank Aaron's record from Bond's

long standing attempt to break it. Thank God he won't because Hank Aaron was a great ball player and Bonds is a shmuck.

[BlueManDude]

115. I didn't call YOU a racist

IMO there is a racial component to the over the top reaction that Bonds is getting in the media nad at the ballparks.

I'm tellin' ya, if McGwire were still playing and chasing records no way he'd be getting the shit Bonds is getting.

[kstewart33]

58. Thanks for the news, but it doesn't mean anything.

He's not in the same league as Ruth.

[BrotherBuzz]

63. The pitcher was

:rofl:

[Squatch]

62. JUICED

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[Zynx]

70. The man's entire record should be eliminated.

In addition to the testimonial evidence, there is statistical and physical evidence of his doping. Statistical is that starting in about 1999 his slugging percentage increased by nearly 33% from the low 600s to the 800 range on average for the next four seasons. http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

Second is the physical evidence in which he went from being a lanky, athletic build to being a monstrous thing that resembles a body builder instead of a ball player.

[MADem]

97. Ya can't unring the bell. But he surely merits that asterisk! n/t

[Zynx]

101. We can make him a nonperson in the record books.

[MADem]

111. I honestly do not think that is necessary

I think the "twinkle, twinkle, little star" next to his name is sufficient. He'll be the Home Run King of the steroid era, which will matter less than records past or future.

He DID follow Hank Aaron, he just took a serious shortcut to travel the same road, and the asterisk will make that clear.

[Blue_Tires]

119. about as legit as the '00 and '04 elections

every true fan of the game i know (including myself) have completely denounced this as a fraud

[Skittles]

123. f*** that streroided piece of shit

he is a disgrace

[faithnotgreed]

124. did anyone hear joe buck and tim mccarvers very overt non-response

they were broadcasting the mets/yankees game when the news came in
and they very much let their feelings be known by hardly saying a word

they barely responded a couple times when the station broke in with the news and they made sure to report on the ny fans reaction when the information was posted on the scoreboard (bronx cheers)

i think joe buck eventually said he saw it as just another home run
and tim said he agreed

it was funny because these are 2 guys who go off on tangents in the middle of any game but during this one they obviously stayed on calling the game at hand

i dont like that bonds broke willie mays record and now onto ruths but if he surpasses aaron i dont know what the baseball world will do
no doubt that would be an awful state of baseball affairs if he did

selig is a gem of a commissioner (ugh) .... though clearly its more complicated than that

[k_jerome]

127. funny the general difference between the minority...

player and broadcaster reaction to bonds and the non-minority.

[faithnotgreed]

129. do you feel this was a race-driven response from them

or are you referring to others?

i dont know those 2 especially well and hadnt heard anyone elses response
if you would care to elaborate i would appreciate it

[k_jerome]

131. i was referring to the general coverage i have seen...

i have seen numerous instances of white broadcasters attempt to get negative remarks from former minority players, such as willie mays and others, to no avail. joe morgan, a very well respected broadcaster and hall of fame player, will not disparage bonds, although he does not condone the use of performance enhancers. sports roundtables invariably become split along racial lines in discussions of bonds.

[faithnotgreed]

132. ok. i hadnt seen any other coverage

LOVE joe morgan and am sorry this issue has become racial. i personally dont think of it in racial terms at all but like anything else im sure many others do no matter the topic
its truly unfortunate that its a part of the discussion (i mean im truly sorry that that is where anyone is coming from when discussing it)

i cant imagine what that must feel like to the true gentlemen of the game like joe morgan

so you feel/sense that what youve heard is race related or did it sound legitimate
again i hadnt heard the other responses

[k_jerome]

133. most of what i have seen is hatred or dislike of bonds...

under cover of caring about the integrity of baseball. just read some of the posts in this thread. anyone who follows baseball knows that this crap has been around in one form or another for decades. it is just an excuse to post hateful comments about one guy.

[Blue_Tires]

125. not to mention that

bonds has the most counterfeit, melodramatic, 'the whole world is against me' persecution complex that i have EVER seen...even from a child it would be disgusting; but from a centi-millionaire pro sports star, it defies logic

[BooScout]

134. Aaron on Bonds.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/us_sport/4074333.stm

Aaron slams Bonds over steroids

Bonds has passed over 700 career home runs
Hank Aaron, Major League Baseball's greatest home run hitter, has hit out at San Francisco Giants Barry Bonds.
Bonds' lawyer admitted the 40-year-old may have unwittingly used creams and oils which contained steroids.

Aaron claimed that single-season home run record holder Bonds' chase of his 755 homers mark would be tainted.

He said: "Any way you look at it, it's wrong. Drugs won't help you hit the ball, but they can make you recuperate consistently enough."

(more)


For what it's worth.....Aaron doesn't think Bonds should have a * by his name in the record books.....but Aaron always has been a class act........unlike Bonds and his fans who spew the most amazing caca trying to defend the indefensable.

[lebkuchen]

136. If you're going to crucify Bonds, let it be for evidence provided

not personality -- though I guess persona goes with the "Majors" territory. I've just seen too many jerks in the stands who have nothing to brag about.

I'm glad Oakland gave Bonds a standing-O.

Thanks for your info, Booscout. You know more about the subject than I do. I just wanted to provide an outsider's view based on a fresh read of the situation. (I don't think you're a racist--not that you'd be concerned one way or the other.)

[BooScout]

140. The evidence provided is that he has used steroids....

The evidence provided is that he denies he knew what he was taking. Common sense tells most of us that perhaps he is stretching the truth when he pleads ignorance of what he was taking as his defense. The old adage....."ignorance is no defense" comes to mind.

I don't think you have a fresh read of the situation. I think you howled racism all night long at people who simply don't like Bonds because of his drug use and his attitude. Not everything is racist and frankly to play the race card in this incidence does nothing but belittle the real issue....steroid use in sports.

It boils down to what we believe. I believe that Bond's use of steroids to enhance his game is wrong and does a disservice to all who played & continue to play the game with what nature gave them.

[lebkuchen]

141. Race in sports is a bigger issue than steroids will ever be

That you don't recognize it tells me you don't know much about the history of racism in America, and how it has manifested itself through baseball over the decades. That doesn't make you a racist, just ignorant.

Everyone thinks they have common sense, but when one looks at the US today, it's clear that not everyone has common sense. That is why I prefer to look at the evidence rather than slam someone because I feel, in my gut, that common sense is on my side.

You don't like Bonds' personality. Others do. That's a matter of opinion.

Until he's kicked out of baseball based on the evidence, you're forced to grind your teeth when those in the stands give him an ovation.

Sorry about that. Maybe get yourself a mouthguard to protect your enamel?

I'll make a sticker for you, and we'll call this discussion a draw.

[BooScout]

142. Sweetheart you don't know jack caca about me....(or anone else here)

I grew up in Atlanta during the 60s, have personally met Coretta Scott King. Have sat at the same table as Andrew Young, have shaken his hand, have also had the privledge of meeting Mr Aaron and even have his autograph because I'm such a fan..... I lived thru integration in the schools in the South. I can assure you I am far from ignorant regarding racism. The fact that you are willing to bandy labels around without the slightest idea of what you are talking about shows YOUR ignorance.

Your continued attempts to defend Bonds behavior by using the racism defense shows indeed your willingness to resort to anything, no matter how low to prove your point.

The discussion is no draw. Bond loses, baseball loses and the fans lose. You lose because you stooped to using an argument that you couldn't possibly win.

BTW, you do know a grand jury is investigating Bonds for perjury don't you? Thought you would just like to know your hero still hasn't heard the end of his 'testimony' regarding his steroid use.

And if you are really interested in racism recently in the press....have a look at how they crucified Cynthia McKinney recently....all because she is a black woman who knows how to stand up to bullies and it pisses the establishment off.

And now this discussion really is over. You continue believing the worst in everyone. I hope such bitterness brings you some kind of satisfaction.... Baiting people by labeling them with offensive stereotypes in order to foment an argument is a cheap debating technique btw.

[lebkuchen]

144. I don't believe in heroes

and "sweetheart" is a sexist pejorative, not that you would know that--goes with the territory, no doubt.

I rest my case.

Now go to bed, before you hurt yourself.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

137. I honor myself

by thinking I can hold an intelligent conversation about baseball with literally anyone in the world. I have studied the game for the entirety of my life.

Barry Bonds is EASILY the greatest player I have ever seen. I am not a Giants fan and I honor his achievements.

[Orsino]

143. * got the most votes, too.

Cheating is cheating.

[Rabrrrrrr]

148. I'm with the "Fuck Bonds" crowd - cheating, egotistical piece of shit.

He should get his separate category for "Most home runs while hepped up".

Who fucking cares? if I did 'roids and other enhancements, I bet I could make a record in something.

Hopefully, I would have the decency and the shame to never ask for credit or applause for it, though.

Fuck Bonds - I hope the only way he gets into the hall of fame is as "Most disgraceful asshole".