Does Barry Bonds deserve his records?

[BikeWriter]

Inquiring minds want to know! :shrug:

[wildhorses]

1. all's fair in love and war...

:shrug:

[BikeWriter]

2. Yes'm, but this is baseball we're talking about.

:-)

[wildhorses]

4. yeah, I know but, aren't all games just a euphemism of war

everything else equipment wise has changed except for the bat
:shrug:
I am not advocating the use of steroids
but what is done, is done

[Oeditpus Rex]

16. In a more literal sense

baseball and its relatives (cricket, rounders) are apart from most other sports as euphemisms for war. Given that a primary goal of war is to capture territory, football is the standard in the euphemism because of the field of play; teams literally invade their opponents' territory and try to capture their "headquarters," i.e. the end zone. But in baseball, opposing teams share the field; it has no "territory."

I know this helps this thread not one little bit, but... :shrug:

[wildhorses]

17. you have a point

no wonder it is my favorite sport

[Magrittes Pipe]

31. Even the bats have changed.

Major leaguers are now using maple bats, rather than ash (Bonds was one of the first to do this). The maple is lighter, and swings faster. More bat speed = more home runs. Maple breaks more easily, but hey -- it's not like ballplayers and teams are hurting for the money to buy more bats.

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. It isn't just bat speed

It's mass and velocity vs. mass and velocity, or something like that.

Think of how fast they could swing a balsa bat — but the ball wouldn't go far. (The bat wouldn't last long, either.)

Does maple have the density of ash?

[Magrittes Pipe]

67. True dat...

Part of what makes the maple bats so powerful is the fact that that they can lathe 'em with a thinner handle. The weight is all at the end. Leverage and shit.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. Ahhhhh

Good to know. :thumbsup:

[wildhorses]

42. the only thing permanent is change

:shrug:

[JVS]

80. Yeah but to be fair, future generations can use the bats without illness.

The fucked up thing about stuff like roids is that if allowed to be used consistently, ballplayers will have bad hearts by 45 as a matter of course, kind of how anorexia has been widespread among horse jockeys.

[NoSheep]

84. i always wondered why we didn't just play chess with Vietnam. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

3. ...

:popcorn:

[wildhorses]

5. surely you have an opinion

:popcorn:

[Oeditpus Rex]

6. Yup

And I've learned not to air it at DU.

:popcorn:

[wildhorses]

8. ahhhhh yes

you have told me this before
why?
afraid they will come get you thru you pooter?
:hi::hug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

9. I just refuse to get involved in a flame war

with people who insist I "hate" Bonds because I'm racist.

:eyes:

[wildhorses]

10. ohhh good grief

:eyes:

[BikeWriter]

12. GMTA!

:)

[BikeWriter]

11. Good grief! Surely we're not that PC. You can dislike him...

without being a racist.

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. Not according to two DUers

who jump on these threads like a fundie on "Will & Grace."

[BikeWriter]

15. That's almost as wrong as racism, IMO.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. What about Lance Armstrong?

We have yet to see an actual positive test on Barry Bonds. We have on Lance Armstrong.

[k_jerome]

18. sshhhh. popular white guy. nt.

[wildhorses]

21. ?

Bwahahahahha
I like you. You're funny
belated welcome to DU
:hi:




edited cos I can't type and eat at the same time

[SaveElmer]

29. The Lance Armstrong tests are bogus...

Conducted 7 years later, not utilizing any accepted testing protocol, no representative from Armstrong involved. And conducted by a tabloid paper that has been criticizing Armstrong for years...

[Ravenseye]

30. Wrong

The tabloid didn't do the test, they just claimed they had a secret information source that said the anonymously numbered test was Armstrong's.

Oh also the test was only on the B sample, not an A and B sample. And it was a new test that was uncalibrated.

For something that occurs naturally when you train at high altitudes like Lance Armstrong.

Published by a tabloid that practically had a monthly column 'things we don't like about Lance Armstrong'

;)

[SaveElmer]

33. Thanks! Even more bogus than I made it sound...nt

[XNASA]

14. Yes, except for the batting records that came when he was DH'ing.

I hate the DH more than I hate steroids.

[Bill McBlueState]

20. this is a good point

Stupid DH.

[FredScuttle]

108. Uh, small point here

but he's played his entire career in the National League, which doesn't have the designated hitter rule. Apart from, say a few dozen interleague games where he got to DH in AL parks, he's played a position for 20 years

[leftofthedial]

19. he has given sufficent cause to warrant an investigation of steroid use

(and other supplements)

If a fair, thorough investigation reveals he did not use inappropriate substances to enhance his performance, then his records should stand and he deserves all attendant accolades.

If the investigation reveals that he did use innapropriate substances, he should receive a Pete Rose-style banishment and his records should forever be tainted.

[k_jerome]

22. so if he is shown to use drugs that were not illegal when used...

he should be banished? i don't understand.

[leftofthedial]

23. I don't think you read my post

:shrug:

[k_jerome]

25. perhaps i misunderstand...

are you referring to bonds and his past or the present?

[leftofthedial]

26. there should be an investigation by the commissioner

if the investigation shows he broke rules, his records should not count. if the investigation clears him, his records count.

[k_jerome]

39. what rules are you referring to?...

i am still not following.

[leftofthedial]

44. laws

or rules and guidelines set out by major league baseball . . .

[k_jerome]

47. steroids were banned recently. do you mean before they were...

banned? if so, how do you banish someone that did not break the rules before they were the rules?

[leftofthedial]

51. many jurisdictions also ahd laws against them

[k_jerome]

57. do you support this ban on all users of substances in baseball...

that were unlawfully used?

[leftofthedial]

64. I support the Commissioner's responsibility

to act in the best interests of the game

speculating about what he may or may not have done is pointless

And I stand by what I said. If he broke the rules, the records don't stand.

[k_jerome]

65. i think i understand.

if he broke rules before they were rules, his records should not stand. and this only applies to him.

[leftofthedial]

66. that is NOT what I said

[k_jerome]

75. you are proposing that he be investigated for what happened...

before a ban was in place. he is currently tested under that ban as are all mlb players. the reason for singling him out to answer for rules he could not have broken because they did not exist escape me. perhaps you could explain a little more clearly.

[leftofthedial]

86. I never said anything about singling him out

I'd also investigate McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa and any others about whom credible charges of substance abuse have been made.

There also have been allegations that Bonds and Palmeiro used banned substances since bans were in place.

It is the Commissioner's job both to conduct an investigation and to rule on whatever the results might be.

on edit: IMHO if an investigation reveals "legal" steroid or other performance enhancement substances were used, players should get some sort of AMris-style asterisk in the record book.

[k_jerome]

89. please point me to the allegations SINCE the steroid ban...

i believe that palmeiro failed a test after the ban was put into place and he payed the price. bonds takes the same tests as numerous other players that have failed and been suspended and he has passed every one. what more do you think he should be subjected to? do you feel that use of banned substances before they were banned should result in punishment?

do you apply the same standard to players using amphetamine to boost performance? it was banned at the same time as steroids. players such as willie mays are known to have used. do you feel this type of retroactive investigation should be conducted and these players stats asterisked?

[FredScuttle]

110. Thank you

such common sense is lost among this thirst to burn Bonds at the stake.

[sasquatch]

24. If I owned a team I would order all my pitchers to intentionally walk him

If anybody pitches to him I'll suspend him indefinetly.

[FredScuttle]

109. I'd love to play your team

when we get runners in scoring position and Barry comes up.

Go ahead and walk him....your integrity will be intact while we walk to a 3-0 lead.

[genie_weenie]

113. I'd have my pitchers hit him on the Giant Elbow Guard.

Every time. It's against the rules to go up to the plate fully armoured.

[bleedingheart]

27. I like what Lewis Black said about the Bonds vs the Ruth's of the world

something like...."Ruth had to overcome his addictions to become the great ball player he was"....whereas men like Bonds juice themselves to even beat the records of men like Ruth....

[jpgray]

28. Yeah--I hear he has the butcher cover Yesterday and Today

[SaveElmer]

32. Barry Bonds cheated...non-blood steroid tests are next to worthless...

By any reasonable definition of proof short of a criminal one, Bonds cheated. The evidence is overwhelming. Baseball only conducts urine tests for steroids which is ridiculuosly easy to mask against.

Simply look at a picture of Bonds before the 1997 season and after. It is physically impossible for a person to build that much muscle that short of a time...especially when you pass the age of 40.

Bonds Before



Bonds After

[Bill McBlueState]

59. but he's in a Pirates uniform there

Any Pirates fan knows that putting on a Pirates uniform immediately results in a loss of muscle mass, reduced depth perception, and all-around sucking at baseball.

[JVS]

69. When he was playing for the pirates, they actually were good

Then he and a few other good players left and they entered a true dark age. This is why the city of Pittsburgh hates his guts.

[Rabrrrrrr]

35. No.

Unless he can show that he hasn't hepped himself up.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

36. Guys in Ruth's day used tricked-up equipment, guys today use

tricked-up bodies. What's the difference?

[SaveElmer]

37. No suggestion Ruth cheated...

Unless you include the ingestion of beer and hot dogs as cheating...

[Gidney N Cloyd]

38. Ruth's said to have used laminated bats up to and beyond the time

they were banned from the game.

[SaveElmer]

40. Said by whom..?

If this is true, it is not a prominent part of baseball history. And if he used laminated bats when they were legal, then there is no cheating involved. Spit balls used to be legal as well. The debate is not whether one had advantages the other did not possess, of course they did. They question is did one go outside those paramters to gain a significant advantage. Bond's cheated!

[regnaD kciN]

41. You can't "cheat" if it's not forbidden...

...and, until a couple of years ago, steroid use wasn't banned in baseball.

If it can be shown that Bonds used steroids after they were outlawed, then toss his records. If not, they're as validly earned as anyone else's. (And how do we know Hank Aaron wasn't wired on "uppers" -- commonplace in baseball in the '60s -- during at least part of the time he challenged Ruth's HR record?)

[k_jerome]

43. it is documented that...

mays, rose, schmidt and many others used amphetamines. they were only recently outlawed along with steroids as performance enhancers. this is conveniently overlooked by the bonds haters.

[SaveElmer]

54. Again...it is illegal!!

Murder is not banned in baseball either...somehow I think they might frown on it.

[k_jerome]

56. do you support all users of illegal substances in baseball...

be banned or have asterisks? or only bonds?

[SaveElmer]

102. If the kind of evidence in the Bonds case...

Were to be gathered against other players...yes I would

Bonds is not being singled out because he is Bonds, he is being singled out because he is about to break the most important record in baseball...and the fact is, beginning in 1998 he has cheated to get there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. There's nothing in the rule book that says an elephant can't pitch

So even though steroids weren't outlawed, they don't belong in baseball anymore than elephants belong on the mound. Outside of Bugs Bunny cartoons, of course.

[SaveElmer]

53. Neither was murder...

I think it is generally agreed that something that is considered a felony would be, by definition, banned from baseball.

Steroid use is and was illegal. It hardly needed to be added to the baseball rulebook as well!

[k_jerome]

58. amphetamines were unlawfully used in baseball for decades.

do you support the same punishment for the users of speed as enhancing substances, or only barry bonds usage of such drugs? note that the amphetamines were outlawed at the same time as steroids.

[SaveElmer]

100. If you can produce...

The kind of overwhelming evidence that others used performance enhancing drugs that exists with Barry Bonds, then yes I would be in favor of punishing anyone caught using such drugs.

Bonds is not being singled out because he is Bonds, he is being singled out because he is about to break the most important record in baseball...it would be nice if he did it within the rules.

[k_jerome]

62. generally agreed by who?...

speed has been a staple of baseball for decades and was only recently outlawed. many baseball greats are known to have used it to help their performance. never mentioned by bonds haters, and i wonder why.

[Robbie Michaels]

45. This is what Barry deserves

*

[hatredisnotavalue]

46. As a married white 47 yo female with two teeanagers

I still think the whole thing was racist. Barry Bonds deserves the record.

[flvegan]

48. Yes. "Cheating" is part of the game. Even Ruth

tried injecting testosterone. It just made him sick, so he couldn't run with it.

Who cares? If sports fans want bigger, faster, stronger then they'd better get used to players enhancing their performance chemically.

Oh, and for the record, using that "cream"/"clear" stack, Bonds would have passed a steroid test, anyway. Testing is a point best not made.

[Ekirh]

49. Have to cop out and say unsure

I know I DON'T LIKE Bonds but I don't want to bass my opinion on like or dislike. I have to say unsure. I mean he was a heck of a player in his earlier days . . . but of course the argument can be made his later days was enhanced by steroids. Although he's admitted to "accidentaly" taking them he's never failed a test etc. etc.

Note: At this point I went on a long winding rant . . but I realized I made no sense so I just deleted it and decided not to try again. Let it be known I'm on the fence and am unsure. Maybe down the line I can give a better answer that makes sense.

[Dukkha]

50. give him his records!

he needs something to listen to

[Taverner]

55. Whether he took roids or not is irrelevant

All MLB players did, so they had, in effect, a level playing field.

[k_jerome]

60. i don't know if i would say all took roids...

but i would say that the vast majority took some form of performance enhancing substance over the past 5 or so decades.

[Burma Jones]

61. I haven't cared about Baseball for a good ten years

I used to go to 10 or 15 Orioles Games and as many Frederick Keys (Carolina League) games every year, but I just got disinterested....

[Sanity Claws]

63. Records? I'll bet he has CDs and has given away all his

old records. He probabaly doesn't even have a vinyl record player anymore.

[pitohui]

70. absolutely

1) he has not been proven guilty of anything

2) his body, his choice, and i have to say the athlete willing to take his body to the limit is more deserving of the glory than the athlete who is not, so i am not sure why those who do use steroids are to be condemned, we have the technology, we can rebuild him faster stronger etc.

we've discussed elsewhere, prob. in GD, that in "brain" sports like chess and poker tournaments, no one is tested for use of adderral etc. altho it's known that use of these performance-enhancing drugs is widespread -- why the double standard w. the "physical" sports? -- it isn't like fucking up on a recreational drug, assuming bonds did take steroids (and i am of the camp that accepts that humans today out-perform humans of the past because of these drugs and we all know it) then so what?

cheating his audiences by screwing up on alcohol or another drug that harms performance would be a different matter but that's not what has the sports world in such an uproar, is it?

i could take steroids for a million years and he would still out-perform me, it isn't like the drug does it all for you, it only helps the already great athlete get a little more edge

what's next? condemn all "sports drinks" except water? they promise to do the same thing, except the steroids actually do something

is it more "honest" to imbibe a substance like gatorade or propel that doesn't actually work?

or is it just stupid?

[RedG1]

71. if they *asterisk Bonds in the record books...

they should *asterisk the Babe records also...Ruth set records before baseball was integrated in 1947

[k_jerome]

76. shhh. popular white guy. bonds is unpopular black dude. nt.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

72. Can you let McGwire's record stand but not Bonds? The shadow of

suspicion is on him too.

[JVS]

73. Does he have any record?

Is there anything where he's the number one guy anymore?

I think a good reason to be less concerned with McGwire is that he doesn't hold the number one spot in anything (Bonds broke his season HR record, so if one goes after Bonds one must go after McGwire too, in order not to replace one notorious cheat with another). Another factor is that since he retired when the crackdown came, there is no risk of him breaking any big records, so it's a matter of less urgency. Bonds is threatening Hank Aaron's record, which makes things more urgent. Also his taking a year off and coming back much smaller in the wake of anti-steroid enforcement raises suspicion.

That having been said, McGwire's career probably should be junked along with Bonds'.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

74. Right, but unless you have objective criteria to use, you must keep

all their records, or trash all. You can't pick and choose based on perceived importance and whatnot.

[JVS]

78. If someone who got sent to the minors and disappeared used steroids...

it is not as big a deal as if someone who is among the best uses steroids. The idea that a rule shouldn't be enforced unless it can be enforced perfectly is ridiculous. Just because not all murders are solved does not mean that we shouldn't try murder cases where we have a good idea who the culprit is. Similarly, we don't do recounts in elections to make sure that every vote for a 4th place candidate is accounted for perfectly.

Ball-players who are at the top of the sport should be scrutinized because if they achieved record-setting performance by using artificial means, it ruins it for future generations of athletes who will have to compete against artificially high numbers. If you don't stop the use of steroids, particularly at the top, then future players will use them because they "need them to be competitive".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

81. The point with respect to McGwire is this: If all the modern home run

kings (Bonds/McGwire/Sosa) were juicing, then shouldn't all forfeit their records and Roger Maris still be the HR king (single season)?

If they were juicing, but juicing was legal, then the records stay.

If they were juicing, but juicing was illegal, but it couldn't be proved, just suspected, the records must stay.

If they were juicing, but juicing was illegal, and COULD be unequivocally proven, the records should be expunged. My view.

[JVS]

83. Yes, to the first comment, Sosa also has the corked bat incident...

working against him, and that "I had corked bats for batting practice" story never sat well with me. If all the "HR kings" were juicing, you have to chuck them all.

"If they were juicing, but juicing was legal, then the records stay.

If they were juicing, but juicing was illegal, but it couldn't be proved, just suspected, the records must stay.

If they were juicing, but juicing was illegal, and COULD be unequivocally proven, the records should be expunged. My view."

Juicing was still illegal by US law IIRC, although not expressly prohibited by the rules of MLB baseball. I consider it within MLB's rights to punish steroid use even if it wasn't expressly forbidden.

Similarly, the fact that McGwire was unwilling to testify that he had not used steroids is adequate ground to dismiss his record AFAIK. While some would complain that this is ignoring "innocent until proven guilty", I would point out that MLB is not the US court system, and that it can run by its own rules. In fact, I think a great policy would be to have any entry into the HoF put through a process whereby they have to prove that they have done things legitimately.

[k_jerome]

77. out of curiousity what do you think should happen to those...

that used amphetamines over the past 40 years to enhance their performance?

[JVS]

79. Do two wrongs make a right?

[k_jerome]

82. you stated that bonds and mgwires careers should be junked...

do you apply that same standard to amphetamine users such as willie mays?

[JVS]

85. I'm not answering your question because I have not been presented...

with enough information on the effects of amphetimine use on the game. It is clearly an area that should be further investigated, but I am unable at this time to declare whether the consequences of amphetimine use are equivalent to those of steroid use. This is an issue for another discussion.

[k_jerome]

87. ahh, i see.

a substance long outlawed by the IOC and the other major sports as a performance enhancer needs more study. a drug that allows players to play the grinding schedule of major league baseball every day and compile inflated statistics does not count. all other sports are picking on speed and baseball just jumped on the band wagon, banning them at the exact same time as steroids. it is all just a coincidence and requires more decades of analysis. barry bonds and others have clearly used a different class of performance enhancer, and their careers should be junked or trashed.

[JVS]

88. You're being intentionally obtuse

I don't know about the effects, so I can't make a call. I'm sure that someone at MLB can make a call about it. If you care to direct me to some information, I'll consider it at my leisure. I'm now done talking with you, as I find your conversation and tone tiresome.

[k_jerome]

90. obtuse? what exactly are the enhancing effects of steroids on ....

stats? of course you do not consider amphetamines, banned in multiple sports as a performance enhancer, as such. it would not allow the argument of trashing bonds and mcgwires careers without making that same argument for trashing the careers of many HOF players. it would be nice to see those that express such intense dislike of bonds acknowledge that baseball has had these types of problems for decades instead of such intense scrutiny on one man and the desire to see his career and legacy trashed. the type of scrutiny that is severely questioned by many minority broadcasters and players as racially biased.

tiresome is the posting of those that know little of sports and what goes on with only the desire to see one mans life trashed.

[JVS]

91. Steroids and amphtimines are 2 different substances. Bye.

:hi:

[k_jerome]

94. i know. one allows you to focus your hatred on bonds...

the other is also a performance enhancer. good night.

[pitohui]

98. well just take some amphetamines and prove it to yourself

they are problematic in some ways but i guarantee that amphetamines are performance-enhancing

not perfectly

perhaps not to the level of 2006 technology but they can without a doubt enhance your performance because they keep you from becoming fatiqued as quickly as the other guy

[k_jerome]

105. steroids are definitely have a greater effect...

but you have to work to see the results. speed gives immediate results and has impacted the game for decades. these substances were outlawed at the same time as steroids, yet this will be overlooked by those that look for an excuse to trash bonds.

[Starlight]

92. People are naive if they think drug use is unusual in professional sports.

It's ridiculous to focus on this one man when it's been widespread for many years.

[Oeditpus Rex]

93. So whom would you suggest

the focus be on? Wally Moon?

[Starlight]

95. How about the owners & coaches?

[k_jerome]

96. sshhh. bunch of rich white guys. nt.

[Oeditpus Rex]

97. I doubt it'd be the owners

Most of those asshats see their ball clubs as nothing more than an investment or another shiny thing. They aren't involved in the field operations.

Managers and coaches would know, but they couldn't be legitimately charged with much beyond abetting. There's no law against not stopping someone from taking steroids.

[Starlight]

107. You don't think owners pressure players/coaches to win no matter what/how?

[BikeWriter]

99. This poll looks to be almost evenly split.

[genie_weenie]

101. Ignore Bonds Steroid use and FOCUS on

the FACT that the message this sends to Minor leaguers, college players and high school kids is you need to take steroids to win and make it in the bigs. It is as simple as that, people.

A singles hitter in the minors is not going to get much more than a look in the Big show today. And why not enough power to satisfy the owners, fans, agents, the game. And High school KIDS are going to start shooting this shit up in order to realize their dream of playing for the Yankees (Or whomever).

And I'm sick of this bullshit response, "No one said anything when (Sosa, McGwire, Brady Anderson, Luis Gonzalez) was hitting all those homers!"

The people who say those things are either outright liars or ignorant fools. They was a huge uproar over no-names, never-weres and has-beens breaking power records held by baseball immortals. Don't think for a second people in Chicago weren't bitching about a a kid who was 160lbs when he debuted with the Rangers, having 3 60 homer seasons (By logic, Sosa must be the best homer hitter of all time since no one else has more than 1 60 homer season.)

I have been complaining since 1996 and Brady Anderson.

So, please can we have enough of the bloody shirt waving and denunciations of the horrors poor old Barry Bonds has been subjected to? This is bigger than him (but not by much) and bigger than the game.

[BikeWriter]

104. Sad, but true. Thousands of teens are influenced by this!

[genie_weenie]

106. And no one Cares about the Children!

It's being framed as the next Rosa Parks Struggle, when in truth it is a great ballplayer (who has never been taken into the hearts of the fans ala McGwire and Sosa) lashing out.

And the young boys who start pumping this shit (because they are not going to be able to afford the designer stuff Barry got) into their veins are going to start suffering from some bad health side-effects.

And how the hell can anyone feel bad for someone making millions a year. It's not like he's some 25K a year Dockworker...

[BikeWriter]

111. It's a damned bad situation, yes.

[jukes]

103. 45s, 78s or 33s?

if he can afford to collect vintage vinyl, i say it's fine!

[maxsolomon]

112. other

i don't care.

the game is debased & pointless.