Meat is:

[leftofthedial]

(beef, pork, lamb and other red meats)

[BikeWriter]

1. Best when raw.

[leftofthedial]

5. ahh. meat tartare

:patriot:

[BikeWriter]

8. Oh, yes. Why cook all the nutrients out?

[leftofthedial]

10. plus the flavor and texture are better when it's raw

and the juices that run down your chin are more . . . elemental

[BikeWriter]

12. Sounds good to me. :-)

[flvegan]

2. Oh, this should be good

:popcorn:

[LeftyMom]

3. Feel like sharing that?

:popcorn:

[flvegan]

4. Absolutely.

Nice thing is, the "butter" is completely devoid of critter, and the corn is non-GMO and organic.

I'm sure it's the nit-picker in me.

[LeftyMom]

That sounds good.

I have plenty of popcorn (and of course it's organic and non-GMO, I'm smart damn it!) but I'm all out of Earth Balance. :( Maybe I'll make some with olive oil and nutritional yeast instead later.

[flvegan]

15. I've wanted to try

popping some in grapeseed oil. It has a very high heat tolerance, and doesn't add a ton of flavor. AND I have an unopened bottle of it. Vegit might be good. Little Vegit, little nutritional yeast...mmmm.

[LeftyMom]

18. I usually air pop it in the microwave so I can control the oil better.

But when I make kettle corn that has to be over the stove. :9

[flvegan]

21. Air pop? Do tell...

Don't make me wait for the White Trash Vegan thead for this...

[LeftyMom]

26. Well, I have a pyrex bowl with a plastic vented lid

like the large one here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00081560K/ref=nosim/102-9334895-4427311?n=284507

I almost cover the bottom of the bowl with kernels, put the lid on, open the vent and put it in the microwave. Usually it takes the popcorn setting plus one additional minute. Then I just pop the lid off carefully (it's a nasty steam burn waiting to happen to do it incautiously) and add some melted earth balance or a squirt of olive oil from my mister and chili powder, or whatever.

[flvegan]

43. Ah, so the key is the bowl

considering how hot it must get.

[LeftyMom]

45. Yeah, don't use tupperware

The kernels get hot enough to melt into the plastic.

[flvegan]

46. I still have my

Visons glass cookware. Bet it works just fine.

Must...try...soon.

[LeftyMom]

48. I'd think the only issue would be

Whether the lid let enough steam out.

[flvegan]

50. So I'd really have to try it to know for sure.

I love popcorn, and it's always "in season" if you will.

Heh, I made a funny.

[LeftyMom]

54. Kinda like humans.

:D

[flvegan]

67. In season, or "need to try"

Soylent Green, though beginning with "soy" isn't vegan. And it's icky.

[LeftyMom]

71. Humans are always in season

It's one of the adaptations that made for a sucessful creature. Perhaps that means when we're gone, bunnies will take over the earth. :shrug:

[flvegan]

97. They can be in season, they just can't be

called "carni's"...just so you know.

[LeftyMom]

100. I'll keep that in mind dear.

:)

[u4ic]

101. That's what I use

in fact, it's the only oil I use for sauteeing (and in this case, popping). Some brands have a bit more taste than others; I used an Italian label once, which imparted more flavour (and not an altogether pleasant one, either). The one I prefer is "Borges". No taste whatsoever.

I put Real Salt and kelp flakes on mine. The kelp is very tasty on popcorn. :9

[smtpgirl]

107. I didn't eat meat for 2 years

I went back to eating meat because I was so tired.

Try not to eat alot of meat, just making my diet a healthy mix

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

83. Can I squeeze in on the couch? I brought my own popcorn & beer.

:popcorn: :toast:

[LeftyMom]

88. Hey, it's his couch. But what the hell, if you can dislodge a dog and make

room, go for it. :toast:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. Well, the dog can stay if it wants too. I'm fine with the floor.

[BikeWriter]

6. Better have LOTS of popcorn!

[flvegan]

11. Why? A small amount should be enough

considering that nobody's much buying into this.

I'd call this a "controlled burn"

[BikeWriter]

16. LOL! Do you think we should have a countdown?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BikeWriter]

22. It may last for a while, if no one gets too extreme...

I'll check in later.

[flvegan]

49. I've kept my "is dog red meat, too?" in check thus far.

Don't want to be too extreme. I'm sure it's delicious, even raw. What would that be called?

[leftofthedial]

68. dog

the other white meat

this is not a flamebait thread. I'm just interested in the rough proportions of omnivores versus herbivores in the Lounge.

[flvegan]

84. Of course.

It's proven upon its face, and that response.

[leftofthedial]

90. oooooh

you're the one who brought up dog.

I do not know anyone who eats dog, so why would it be in the poll description? Also, why would you bring it up, if not for "humorous" purpose?

As I thought it might, this wholly unscientific poll shows that about 80% of DUers eat meat and about 20% do not.

In my group of family and friends, I'd guess it's about 80-20 on red meat too. Do you know of any good national statistics on vegetarianism?

[flvegan]

96. And 34% have some issue with it.

Nice ratio to me.

[leftofthedial]

92. the "carni's"?

I'm an "omni." I'd bet 100% of the others here are omnivores as well.

[flvegan]

98. Since the ugly head of bias as arrived, I'll bid you

a good day.

[leftofthedial]

103. great, you insinuate that meat eaters might as well eat dogs

then you call meat eaters an inaccurate name that is apparently intended to be a perjorative,

and now you run away?

sheesh.

[flvegan]

105. Nice try.

Some folks that eat meat DO eat dogs.

I insinuated nothing, but I sure got a draw on the strawman.

[leftofthedial]

109. some people who eat meat do eat dogs

and some people who don't eat meat are child molesters

so fucking what?

speaking of strawmen

[Placebo]

7. The most delicious food ever.

But it really isn't all that good for you.

[TheMightyFavog]

9. Mmmmm... Sausage....

mmmmmm... Get 'em on the grill, side of mustard and sauerkraut...

Nothing beats it!

[leftofthedial]

13. dogs, brats . . . on the grill

mmm.

[jpgray]

14. Delicious! But not too good for you

[China_cat]

17. Other

Food.

[Radical Activist]

20. I'm much healthier when I cut meat out of my diet.

I don't always keep it up so well, but the difference is noticeable.

[leftofthedial]

72. healthier how?

and what kind of meat do you eat when you "lapse"?

Do you seek out organic and free-range meats, or just grab a container of red stuff at the grocery store? I'm not dissing. I'm curious.

I think commercial meat is disgusting and not healthy. But there are markets that sell excellent meat.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. Nutritions and tasty...

but best in moderation, especially fattier cuts of meat which tend to be higher in cholesterol...personally, I almost never eat pork (I make an occasional exception for bacon and prosciutto, but that's about it) and only eat red meat about once a week.


And on a side note (because I can't resist a digression) the two people who voted for 'murder' are either joking, or (if they aren't joking) idiots.

Many animals are either carnivorous or omnivorous by nature; among the latter are humans and several other primate species including orangutans, baboons and chimpanzees. Humans wouldn't have evolved these oversized brains we're either blessed or cursed with had our ancestors NOT hunted and eaten meat, either; many tens and hundreds of millenia of evolutionary adaptation to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and increased brain size thanks to elevated protein intake from eating meat combined to eventually create what we call 'human intelligence'.

If you don't want to eat meat, that's all well and good. It's a personal choice that I can respect. Trying to claim moral superiority because of it, though, is completely absurd and totally unjustifiable.

[jpgray]

24. The flipside of that is our empathic responses are also natural

Whether their having a marked impact on diet will always remain true for only a minority or not--who knows? But our needs change--an empathic spider would have a tough time of things, but it's easier to be an empathic, agriculturally-inclined omnivore.

[flvegan]

25. I love the first sentence of your sig line.

It's very true.

But then, I'm an idiot (or so I'm told...by you).

[LeftyMom]

27. Outdated argument

The current thinking is that one of the main causes of the evolution of the human brain was the need for greater intelligence to facilitate community organization not for hunting but to prevent predation.

But what do I know, I'm an idiot. :eyes:

[jpgray]

28. Hunting and gathering--they're cops

There's no debate, from what I've read, that many primates need meat/animal fare for nutrition--our ancestors were likely no different. You take out the hunting part you'd have to do a lot of gathering.

[LeftyMom]

30. Many omniverous species are primarily veg but oportunistic scavengers

Even hippos will eat carrion. So if you scrape up a road kill I promise not to fault you for it. Deal?

[jpgray]

31. But we're talking primates--specifically heavy, bipedal primates

Og didn't get ripped enough to bag the best houris in the tribe by looking for scraps, you know?

[LeftyMom]

33. *snort*

Yeah, nobody gets big on the veg. :rofl:

No really, I've never seen a serious scientific argument suggesting that humans or thier immediate ancestors turned to predation to increase thier chances at mating. Do you have a reference for that?

[jpgray]

39. Yeah--all the cliched "mammoth hunt" caveman culture we learned as kids

One can get big on the veg... now. But gathering all that shit in pre-agricultural times would be next to impossible--far easier to just kill one of those mammoths and eat until full for a week.

edit: Or check Spider Jerusalem's reply. :D I figured knowing I'm right was enough, but he went and proved it!

[LeftyMom]

42. And what would the advantage be?

Wouldn't a creature whose most remarkable evolutionary trait is the ability to move at speed on two legs maintain a lean body for greatest locomotion and eat the diet that best facilitates stamina?

[jpgray]

57. More problem-solving, teamwork effort to take down a mammoth

Gathering something off a bush is a little less brain-intensive.

[LeftyMom]

65. Yeah, but teamwork likely evolved in response to predation, as I already

discussed. The idea that early humans were taking down mamoths right and left has more to do with the works of Jean Auel than with the actual evidence of how early humans lived.

[jpgray]

70. I don't buy it

Historically speaking, large brains are more common among predators than among prey. There are anecdotal counterexamples to this, but in the main it's true (unless my anthro prof was a lying scumbag). Social behavior also improves brain size--combining the two factors, this is why wolves have more developed brains than say, deer or antelope.

[LeftyMom]

78. There are enough exceptions either direction that it's a rather useless

rule for predicting anything, especially since intelligence doesn't correlate well to brain size. Species evolve larger brains because they need to, whether they're highly intelligent herbivores, like elephants, or predators with little recognizable intelligence, like sharks. Plenty of other factors like biological niche, interaction with other species and the nature of the animals' habitat also come into play.

[jpgray]

81. Useless is a little much

But yeah, it's impossible to prove anything because we don't really know how dolphins/elephants/humans developed huge brains, other than knowing there was a positive feedback loop for growing brainpower, and that social behavior was a factor. Maybe a biologist can come in here and rule definitively.

[leftofthedial]

93. why would a non-hunter need speed?

Roots and berries don't move too fast.

[LeftyMom]

95. Several reasons:

1. Large animals with big teeth have been known to gnaw on humies. Moving quickly minimizes this, as does defensive group behavior, use of cover, etc.

2. Humans evolved to move bipedally both quickly and efficiently (there is much less wasted motion in human bipedal locomotion than in that of chimps.) This created a huge advantage in allowing humans to range over a wide area to get the food and water that they needed, vital in the rather sparse conditions of African grasslands, but also usefull in other climes.

[leftofthedial]

106. defensive group behavior helps

I don't think we evolved "speed" so that we could outrun predators though. Running away is a terrible strategy when confronted by a large predator and is completely stupid if confronted by a large pack of smaller predators.

I'll somewhat buy your point on the wider range, but all evidence is that humans migrated to find new feeding grounds. Running and endurance are far more advantageous to a hunter than to the prey. Hiding, or standing and fighting, or, as you point out, cooperating with a group, is the way to defend oneself.

I believe it's pretty clear that improved locomotion, along with other factors, worked to *widen* our dietary options, not to make us somehow better at the old ones. That is, we probably became more and more omnivorous as we became able to move farther faster.

I fully respect a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle choice. Two of the five people closest to me in the world are vegetarians. I just figure we have to kill something to eat, no matter what we eat. It's a central paradox of life.

[flvegan]

34. "Ripped" is...?

[flvegan]

29. Idiots read Sussman, I guess.

[Spider Jerusalem]

51. Feeling neglected?

I was in the middle of composing a reply to another post; no need to reply to one of mine TWICE. (Patience is a virtue, and all of that, you know.)

Insecure, too, I see (reference to Sussman being completely gratuitous, and however good your grasp of computer science or classical mechanics may be, you're evidently a little weak in the departments of evolutionary biology and comparative ethics).

[LeftyMom]

53. That was a reply to post #27, made by me

:shrug:

[flvegan]

55. Hey, Chuck...grip it when you get it.

This response wasn't to YOU.

Feeling neglected? Or, maybe you've changed your name here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. My mistake.

What I get for rnot looking at 'My Posts' and instead reading down the thread without my eyeglasses. My apologies.

[flvegan]

61. It's cool.

Heated discussion...sh*t happens, right? None standing among us hasn't done this before.

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. Hardly 'outdated'.

Précis of a monograph from the Quarterly Review of Biology, 2004:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?id=doi:10.1086/381662&erFrom=-8216505554449757897Guest


Another, form the American Society of Nutritional Sciences: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/133/11/3886S

Another, which posits that high-protein diet formed an essential part of the process of human evolution: http://www.north.londonmet.ac.uk/ibchn/publication/cbp03_cunnane.pdf

Another, from Scientific American, 2002: http://sd1.med.uchile.cl/evolucion/2002sciamdieta.pdf

I can go on with this, but I think you get the general idea.

[LeftyMom]

40. Yep, and most of the stuff relating the role of predation to human

development dates to '05. The role of differing factors is of course always debatable, but the current data shows that early humans were not the prolific hunters they were previously assumed to be and that they were very much a prey species for far longer than was previously assumed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

76. And what I see in the literature...

at least, from a quick scan of abstracts available through resources like Google Scholar & etc...is that this is not a theory that's REPLACED the idea that increased protein intake played a vital role in human evolution, but rather an adjunct to it (so it would seem that the earlier theory is not so 'outdated' as you claim, nor has it been superseded).

[LeftyMom]

80. Certainly it takes protein to build and fuel a large brain

but there's no reason to believe that it need be animal protein, nor that it had to come from active predation rather than scavenging. I'm just saying that the idea of early humans as prolific and active hunters is not consistent with the current understanding of the fossil record.

[Spider Jerusalem]

91. Actually...

given the locale in which most early human evolution took place, there's ample reason to believe that it couldn't have been anything OTHER than animal protein, for many reasons. There aren't many high-protein plants in Africa; most of the higher-quality sources of plant protein are either of Asian or New World origins, and prior to the development of agriculture, those there were weren't available in the quantity necessary to sustain the protein requirements of a human population; and the observed behaviour of other primates in the wild tends to confirm ths hypothesis on the assumed basis of similar behavioural characteristics in similar species living in a similar environment (chimpanzees hunt for meat, for instance).

Although I will agree that it's likely that our australopithecene ancestors scavenged or ate insects instead of hunting (but the fossil record also suggests that the early members of genus Homo WERE hunters).

[leftofthedial]

77. humans are clearly adapted to be omnivorous

AND we evolved from herbivores

so arguing that evolution somehow means we shouldn't eat meat is a little odd.

but you are right in that we can't claim that we evolved intelligence in order to hunt meat. Our evolution was (is) a complex tapestry of diet, sex, anatomy, tool use, environment, social organization . . . all happening all the time.

[LeftyMom]

87. Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting we didn't evolve from omnivores

or that the human body can't process flesh (it doesn't do it terribly well, but it does do it.)

Honestly I see the whole evolutionary argument as tangential. No matter what our ancestors ate, there's more than ample evidence that modern humans are healthier on a plant-based diet and that that diet is also one of the best tools we have for reducing our ecological impact.

[leftofthedial]

94. I'm not sure the evidence is unequivocal that only a vegetarian diet

is sustainable.

[LeftyMom]

99. I don't know if it's unequivocal, but it's certainly compelling.

Here's a pretty basic article talking about the reduced ecological impact of a vegan diet, but it mostly talks about fuel issues. http://society.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5366035-105909,00.html

In terms of efficient land use, preservation of fresh water, prevention of waterborne infection, polluted runoff and resultant dead zones and fish kills, plant-based diets still come out ahead.

[leftofthedial]

108. compared to corporate, factory meat, yeah

but the cause of that problem is capitalism, not meat eating.

Thanks for the info though. I'll do more reading about it.

[yewberry]

32. Your side note: maybe they're big Smiths fans!

Also, if you do want to eat meat, that's all well and good. It's a personal choice that I can respect. Trying to claim moral superiority because of it, though, is completely absurd and totally unjustifiable.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Are you high, or something?

Point out where I made any claim of moral superiority on the basis of my dietary habits. Oh. That's right. I didn't. (On the other hand, the statement 'meat is murder' makes that claim explicitly.)

[yewberry]

47. All I did was c&p your post

and take out the negative.

Are you suggesting that Smiths fans feel that they are morally superior to non-Smiths fans, Mr. Serious-pants?

Jeez, settle down.

[Radical Activist]

35. Even if your evolutionary ideas are true

that's a weak argument. Mankind has been at war for thousands of years. Does that make it justifiable and desirable to continue war simply because it is a tradition of mankind? Not hardly. There are some thing we must outgrow as a species.

[jpgray]

37. Who's to say human behavior is determined by what's justifiable?

How does one justify wasting time arguing trivialities on an internet message board, for example? :D

[flvegan]

52. Guess the whole "big evolved brain" theory

goes right out the ole window, then. I mean, you'd think that human behavior would be determined by what's right and what's best for us. At least, you'd think so by now. What with our big, evolved, thinking human brain (which we got by...oh, nevermind).

[jpgray]

56. No--part of the human experience is reasoning out the best action

And then doing the exact opposite, knowing it all the while.

[flvegan]

58. How...evolved.

I get it now. Thanks.

[jpgray]

60. Like the most rational thing for you to do is not take this too seriously

But obviously you have decided to do the opposite. My theory has empirical backup! :D

[flvegan]

62. I haven't.

Opinions vary. I'm staying very light-hearted about this. I find it funny, actually...hence the joking/sarcasm.

[jpgray]

63. I never see you two having much fun in these threads

It's hard to feel offended and have fun at the same time, isn't it? Maybe I should go see the latest "edgy" comic to remind myself.

[flvegan]

66. I don't feel offended, though.

Honestly. I am having fun. This is discussion. This is debate. Folks think differently than I do on some topics. So long as nobody gets personal or accusatory, it can stay that way. Usually, that's when I (or "we" but I'm not speaking for anyone) feel like, well "okay, the fun is over"

[jpgray]

73. I'm probably getting the wrong impression then

[LeftyMom]

69. If I were offended, I wouldn't be posting

I'd be busy calling him up to talk shit about the people who piss me off. :D

[leftofthedial]

79. no! that's part of the republican voter experience.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Why are we exempting poultry?

Has Tyson been lobbying you? :scared:

BTW....not this shit again!

Meat is what some people eat and what some people don't.

[leftofthedial]

85. I'm a corporate tool

and a shit-spewing moran

[Deja Q]

44. You forgot one little option:

"I can't get enough of it."

:D

[Catchawave]

64. Please, if you *must* eat meat...

Go Organic !

[jpgray]

75. That's something I think we can all agree on

[leftofthedial]

82. absolutely

if you've been eating grocery store factory meat, you owe it to yourself to try some good meat from a real meat market. It's not at all the same.

[Deja Q]

104. I love it when it's organic...

:yoiks:

[Strawman]

74. my nickname

[leftofthedial]

86. I play in a duo

he's "Meat" and I'm "Talent"

seriously. we were named by our former road manager.

[Strawman]

102. yeah. I read about your band in some local page

they didn't mention your name though

:)