I coming up on a thousands posts. Ask me anything about heraldry

[sarge43]

For example, would anyone like to know the difference between a heraldic wyvern and a dragon?

[joneschick]

1. per chevron, ermine and gold

in the base a hawk's bell or. Illustration? that's as I remember it---there could certainly be some errors......

[sarge43]

4. Well, for the hawk's bell to be gold, the shield

would have to be ermine. So blazon: Ermine, a chevron and hawk bell or. I haven't seen or read about a hawk's bell as charge, so winging it here. That sound like a very attractive coat of arms.

[everythingsxen]

2. I know the differences between a wyvern and a dragon!

:P

Tell me though, what does it mean when your family crest is covered in skulls and axes?

:evilgrin: :rofl:

[sarge43]

3. A Wyvern has only hind legs, a dragon has four.

Either there were a lot of Vikings in your family or your ancestors pissed off some monarchs. :wow:

[joneschick]

5. a kick from one cranky old bat to another

[sarge43]

6. Thank you, joneschick

We cranky old bats look out for one another. :toast:

[tjwmason]

7. Do obsess about metal on metal, and colour on colour?

Or are you more relaxed about it.

[sarge43]

8. I'm certainly not anal about it.

There are times when bending the rules are called for, such as the arms of Papacy, when an unique id is required. And there's the arms of a knight granted by Henry V. Said knight was extraordinarily heroic in battle and Hal granted him an augmentation of a red lion on black. The thinking being people would inquire why and knight and descendants could strut the stuff.

However, because arms are a visual personal id, they should be immediately identifiable, so the contrast of metal/color is for the most part necessary.

So, why did you take the Confessor's attributed arms?

[tjwmason]

19. An attempt to be distinctive mostly...

but also a less nationalistic emblem of the nation - he having been our patron Saint until St. George came along with the foundation of the Garter.

[sarge43]

24. He still technically is a patron Saint of England or so I understand.

Richard II impaled his coat of arms onto England's.

[Bear down under]

43. The arms of England

Gules, three leopards or, were first assumed by Richard I. It is sometimes said that as the leopard was a symbol; of bastard birth, Richard was alluding to his descent from William I, aka William the Conqueror, aka William the Bastard. But as this took place in time immemorial, who knows?

You are correct, however, in saying that St George is still patron saint of England.

[sarge43]

58. Back when I was still welcome at court, the way I heard

it Richard just combined the two lions of Normandy with mom's Aquitaine single lion. 'Leopard' was the medieval French convention for a lion passant gardant. I really doubt Lion Heart would have wanted to rattle any more old family skeletons, having more than enough contemporary ones already.

[Bear down under]

62. You're probably quite right

I've often wondered why Richard would want to allude to his ancestor's bastard birth -- though as his succession was apparently in doubt for quite a while, he would have wanted to emphasise his legitimate claim to the throne; and of course he was duke of Aquitaine in his own right...

Here's a story about the royal lion (or leopard!) which may interest you.

The arms of my alma mater, the University of Sydney, granted in 1857, are: Argent on a cross azure an open book proper clasps Gold between four stars of eight points Or, on a chief Gules a lion passant guardant also Or. It is traditionally said that the design combines the open book of Oxford and the lion of Cambridge with the then arms of the Colony of New South Wales, which were argent on a cross gules a lion passant guardant or between on each limb a mullet of eight points also or.

Not so. The University's arms actually antedate those of NSW, and the lion is not that of Cambridge but the royal lion of England. It appears that the original design submitted to the Earl Marshall included only the cross with the stars (the Southern Cross) and the book. The chief with the lion was added at Queen Victoria's request when she gave the University its Charter, to mark her pride in being the first Sovereign since the Middle Ages to found a new University. It's a long story how that came about; but as far as I know, Sydney is the only Australian university to display the royal arms, as those of its Founder rather than as the symbol of colonial loyalty which most foreign visitors mistake them for.. They are magnificently carved in stone above the arch of the Great Tower, the entrance to the Quadrangle. It is said the lion (the dexter supporter) roars whenever a virgin passes through the arch beneath him, but he hasn't been heard for many years :-)

[trackfan]

9. What's an orle? I always see it in the crossword puzzles.

[sarge43]

11. It's a narrow border running parallel to the edge of the shield,

but not butted against the edge. In heraldic techie talk, it's called a sub-ordinary. The double line of fleurs-de-lis on the Scottish royal arms is a type of orle.

[swimboy]

10. Do you think martlets will come back into fashion?

I'm asking for a friend.

[sarge43]

12. Have they ever gone out of fashion?

In English heraldry they're the cadency mark of a fourth son, therefore often considered the mark of the self-made man as a fourth son was unlikely to get much of the family goodies when dad kicked. Are you listening, Prince John?

[swimboy]

13. Thank you! I will be at my parents' this evening and will look

at the coats-of-arms I remember they have for each of their families. I only remember a lion rampant on one and some haystacks or sheafs on the other. I don't know much at all about this so it's really interesting to me.

[sarge43]

15. Haystacks are called garbs.

They're used a lot in German heraldry. Am looking forward to your report.

[unpossibles]

14. are we really sinister?

:)

actually, I have always hated that most words for "left" have negative connotations and most for "right" have positive. those bastards.

my family crest has a lion that is not rampant; the lazy ones. what are those called?

[sarge43]

16. Carl Sagan went into the negatives associated with left.

Something to do with the right/left brain set up.

Well, there are several that are lazy: :)

Lion passant: Standing on three legs, right foreleg raised

Lion passant reguardant: Looking over his left shoulder

Lion passant guardant: Looking at us. The English royal lion

Lion statant: Standing on all fours

Lion sejant: Sitting on hindquarters

Lion couchant: Lying down, head erect

Lion dormant: Asleep, right paw draped over left

And all kinds of variations: Lion statant reguardant, etc.

[unpossibles]

35. I believe it's passant reguardant

but I would have to check.

:)


thanks!

[deucemagnet]

17. OK, here is the crest associated with my family name...

...what can you tell me about it?



BTW, I say "associated with my family name" rather than "my family crest" because I'm not sure I'm of the same lineage as the Nearys who bore that crest.

edit: gr.

[sarge43]

18. You're correct

Arms may be associated with a family, but not possessed by anyone other than the individual to whom they were granted or inherited. Also with the exception of Scottish clan badges, crest aren't used separately from the coat of arms. No one has just a crest. What you have there is an achievement, ie all the bells and whistles. BTW, the crest is the helmet, coronet, cap of maintenance, etc placed on top of the shield. It's what the original bearing would wear to battle and/or court.

OK, I'd say late middle ages, English, the helm is most likely a knight's, reinforced by the spearheads.

My pitiful attempt at a blazon (heraldic description). Gules, en fess argent three spearheads gules, en chief three annulets or. Upon a Helm with a Wreath vert and gules, mantled vert and gules - A red shield with a silver horizontal bar with three red spearhead, in top third three gold rings. A helmet with a green and red twist wreath and mantling.

The only thing I'd nitpick is the wreath and mantling. Properly they should be the principal metal and color of the shield; in this case red and silver.

[deucemagnet]

20. Thank you!

I'm only familiar with the crest part. Your observation about the wreath and shield is probably correct, as I have never seen it associated with the crest before, and this is the best graphic I could find on the net.

My Dad had the family name investigated, and he has the details you'd probably find most interesting, but this is what I can remember off of the top of my head. The family is Irish, the three gold rings represent wealth and might indicate a family of merchants, and the three spearheads and the color red indicate valor in battle. I wish I had the heraldic description, since you made such an effort with your own!

Anyway, the crest is almost certainly not in my lineage. Why would a family of wealthy merchants and fierce warriors flee to America around the turn of the century? :shrug:

On edit: As far as crests go, I think this one is pretty cool-looking. :thumbsup:

[sarge43]

21. Well, Irish heraldry was influenced by the English

"Why would a family of wealthy merchants and fierce warriors flee ..."

Got caught up in The Troubles perhaps or they were no longer wealthy.

Thanks for the background.

[deucemagnet]

23. Nine more posts to 1000!

Family history aside, for now I'll stick with, "Two cards, deuce, on a shield or." :)

[sarge43]

26. On a shield vert

Erin go bragh!

[deucemagnet]

28. D'oh! Of course!

:)

[grannylib]

50. I just love the acanthus leaves (at least that's what they look like to me

They show up in a lot of Norwegian art, and I am part Norski.

Otherwise, it looks like 3/5 of an Olympic team, participating in partial javelin throwing!

[chaska]

22. Harold who?

[sarge43]

29. Harold Bluetooth. king of Denmark 960-965 n/t

[chaska]

30. Wow, you actually know your Harold from a hole in the ground.

Impressed!

[sarge43]

31. Thank you. Even married to one - James Harold

I love that name; he had to be gnarly for the people of that time to comment on his dental hygiene.

[Bear down under]

46. Harold Gormsson

"That Harold who won for himself the crowns of Denmark and Norway and made the Danes to be Christian."
He was my 29-times-great grandfather. Why he was called Bluetooth I don't know.

[Courtesy Flush]

25. How do you feel about Simon Bar Sinister?

[sarge43]

27. A bit of a bastard, I'm afraid. n/t

[Ptah]

32. Could you shed some light on either of these?

There is some question which one is in our past.

Thanks.

[sarge43]

33. I'll have to get back to you, Ptah

These will take some research.

[Ptah]

34. They are both believed to be from Geradstetten, mid 1800s.

on Edit: Our ancestors left Geradstetten in the mid 1800s.
The crests may date back to the 1500's.




Thanks for any time you might be inclined to spend.

:hi:

[sarge43]

38. Some light, I hope.

The one on the left is dubious. It looks like someone's current day attempt - known as bucket shop heraldry. For one thing the crest is traditional while the charge on the shield looks modern. Further the human figure, especially one that's realistic as opposed to a mythic or stylized, is very rare. It's sometimes seen in Scandinavian and Swiss heraldry, but almost never in German.

The right hand one looks more like it. It certainly conforms to the style of German heraldry in the 16th century. Given the very simple charge and the tilting helm I'd say granted in the 15th c. Ritters (knights) were usually given that type of helm. It's interesting that the drawing seems to have been a pen and ink sketch done, I'd say, 18th or 19th c. and not by a trained heraldic artist - probably copied from a roll of arms.

Blazon: Or, a Lion naissant sable, langued and orbed gules. Upon a tilting helm a lion of the same, mantled or and sable.

[Deep13]

36. Okay, according to a commercial website, my Dad's looks like this.

Black shield with yellow chevron. On the chevron are three red roses. Under it is one yellow pistol and two more above the chevron. Above the shield is a knight's tournament helmet. In the top of the helmet appears to be some kind of fabric hat that looks like a rope of alternating grey and yellow segments. Above that there is a castle-looking building with the roof on fire. The whole thing is surrounded by what appears to be grey and yellow plant matertial. The motto is "Inter primos."

My mother's family has the following from the same website. Light grey or silver shield with a black chevron. There is one black bird, perhaps a raven, under the chevron and two more above it. Above the shield is the same tournament helmet with the same fabric hat, except it is red and either light grey or silver. Above THAT is a double-headed eagle. There is the same surrounding plant material except it is that light grey and red. The motto is to small to read in Latin, but the English translation is stated as "A king's gift is pleasant and good."

[sarge43]

41. Is your Dad's family Irish?

I asked because the charge on the arms of Dublin is a castle in flames - fairly common charge in Irish heraldry.

OK, his arms would be dated at least from the 17th century, may be even 18th, because of the pistol charge. The rope is the wreath and that's essentially what it was - a twist of fabric to hold the mantling on the helmet. Mantling started as a protection against sun stroke during the Crusades, ie a cloth draping. That's what that "grey and yellow plant matertial" really is. By the 18th century heraldic displays had badly degenerated. One writer called the drawings of mantling during the period "a bed of seaweed", so you weren't off all that much :). The grey is actually black and the yellow, gold. One of the rules of heraldry: Color can't be placed on color or metal on metal.

Metals: Gold or yellow (Or). Silver or white (Argent).

Colors: Red (Gules), blue (Azure), black (Sable), green (Vert), purple (Purpure). There are others, but seldom used.

Blazon: Sable, a chevron or three roses gules between three pistols or. Upon a helm wreathed sable and or a tower inflamed mantled the same. Motto: Inter primos.

Mom's arms: The type of bird was specified in the blazon, so will have to go with raven. For the record the double headed eagle was particular to the Holy Roman Empire or Imperial Russia and when displayed by someone other than a member of either royal family, it was in effect a political statement of support, especially in the HRE. So does your mother's family have a Russian, German or Italian background?

Blazon: Argent, a chevron sable between three ravens proper. Upon a helm wreathed gules and argent a double-headed eagle (?) mantled the same. Motto: A king's gift is pleasant and good.

What color is the eagle? That should be noted in the blazon. If it's colored naturally, then it's "proper" otherwise as above.

[bigwillq]

37. Congrats!

:toast:

[sarge43]

39. Thank you

May I sit at the cool kid's table now? :bounce:

[LibertyLover]

40. I'm my barony's herald at the moment

and there are days when if I see another newbie come up with their brilliant idea to try and register "or, 3 lions regardant gules" or "azure, a semi of fleur de lis, argent" I will scream.

[sarge43]

42. You must envy Scotland's Lord Lyon

He still has the legal authority to fine anyone improperly displaying arms.

[5thGenDemocrat]

44. Hey Sarge

Congrats on the 1K. Is it true that our family crest shows stags rampant on a field of horseshit, or was that just Pa pulling our legs like usual?
John
Giving you a good reason to post the ol' H crest.

[sarge43]

45. Hey Nephew

In fact it's a beer keg proper. :beer:

[grannylib]

47. Is there any other name for unicorns in heraldry??

[sarge43]

48. Not that I've ever heard of, grannylib

Why do you ask?

[grannylib]

49. I just love unicorns, and seeing your post about the difference between

wyverns and dragons made me wonder...
I love dragons too, and was always fascinated by the examples of heraldry that I saw when I was living in England.
I have always wanted to design a personal 'coat of arms' just for my own amusement and to reflect my heritage.

[sarge43]

55. OIC

Well, in the heraldic zoo of fantastic animals they are thought to be the most beautiful. They didn't make an appearance in heraldry until the 15th century. Being a symbol of Christ because of their purity they were considered too sacred for mere mundane display.

Dragons, of course, are Wales' symbol since Day One.

Here's my design for my personal arms: Silver shield, blue chevron for my AF rank, three red maple leaves because my maiden name means autumn in German and my material grandfather was Canadian. Motto: Pauca sed bona (Few things but good). Argent, a chevron azure between three maples leaves gules. Just an example of how pull name, background and heritage into the design FWIW.

[grannylib]

59. Thanks! I would probably have to have the unicorn to represent half the

British emblem, since I am half Brit (by birth)and it could also represent my personal faith; and then I would want some kind of device to indicate the work of a blacksmith, since my maiden name means "place of the smith" in Norwegian.
Not sure what I would do for the Russian (by birth) half of me! Hubby is half Czech and half German, so maybe something in there too...
Cobalt blue would have to be at least part of the color scheme, since it's my favorite...and blue is better than RED any day!
I dunno nothin' about designin' no crests...just having fun thinking about what would be symbolic and meaningful to me!

I know it's nothing "official" but it would be fun just to please my own self :-)

[sarge43]

60. An anvil would be a perfect charge

In fact because his name means ironworker in German that was the charge the English College of Heralds used on Eisenhower's arms when he was given an honorary knighthood after WWII.

Imperial Russian heraldry was strongly influence by French, you'd want something simple and non-living (not many animals or human figures in French heraldry), so the ordinaries like bends, pales, crosses or figures like the fleur-de-lis.

Except in Canadian heraldry women don't get crests unless they're peers in their own right. But hey as you say it's not official. A demi (upper half of the body) unicorn would work nicely.

[grannylib]

61. I also love the acanthus leaves; they're so classical, and very Norski

used a lot in rosemaling and such

[wildhorses]

51. I see you made your 1000 mark...congratulations

:toast::hi:

[sarge43]

57. Thank you everyone

It took a lot of motor mouthing, but I made it to the 1000+ club. Now onward to 10000+ :D

Hang in there zedpeace; you'll get there.

[joneschick]

52. congratulations! you've passed the dread 1000 mark

carry on.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hand]

54. WTF is a bend gules? nt

[sarge43]

56. A red diagonal band across the shield

Techie talk alert.

Blazons are written from the shield bearer's pov; so a bend starts at the upper left (viewer's pov) and ends at lower right. Unless otherwise noted, charges (figures on the shield) are oriented to the right or dexter.

British blazons used a form of Norman French of the 11th century, so bend rather than bar, argent instead of silver and so forth.

[Hand]

63. Thanx! nt

[Solon]

64. OK, what can you tell me about this one...

This is my Mother's family name, my Father's side is this one:

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/mcbee-coat-arms.htm

I cannot direct link to this picture, its a damned store, but the best I can find.