Are women just jealous of one another?

[GirlinContempt]

So many of us pick each other apart, we call one another names, and degrade women around us. Why is that? This question goes doubly for self-described feminists, and women who rail against societal stereotypes of women and beauty. I can't count how many times I've heard someone who espouses a distaste for traditional beauty stereotypes and anti-women messages calling another woman ugly, or fat, or skanky, criticizing her choices in clothes, makeup, hair colour, or picking apart her physical appearance in some way. What gives with that? Are we really raised to view one another as competition? If so, are we really so stupid that we can see 'patriarchy' as all that it is and still gorge ourselves on the remains of another womans self image?

I'm guilty of it myself. But I try very very hard to curb it. It isn't productive, and I think it's often a form of jealousy, or if not jealousy, then maybe a way to bolster your self image versus the 'competition'. But, ladies, how can we expect men to stop calling us skanks and sluts if we can't stop calling each other that (especially women we don't even KNOW)? How can we expect to really, truly change this screwed up concept of female beauty and worth if we use this negativity as the #1 weapon in our war on one another? The last time I checked, calling a woman with breast implants an ugly skank didn't change the society which teaches us that we need larger breasts/fatter lips/slimmer thighs to be beautiful and loved. It just made someone feel like shit about themselves, and it just made you look like an asshole.

Am I missing something here? Is there some piece of this puzzle I can't see? Help?

[sendero]

1. My first wife..

.... refused to work in an office environment - and that was her stated reason. Continual backbiting, gossip, tearing down.

Whether or not it was the real reason, well, who knows ? :)

[GirlinContempt]

2. Who knows if it was the real reason

but I know what she was talking about with its existence.

[Katina]

11. it probably was

I think that the more empowered a woman feels, the less likely she is to tear down another woman. I used to work in an office that was just a big open room, about 20 desks..all women. The stuff that went on was horrible. Even when you tried to stay out of the petty nonsense, you were then targeted as an "elitist" or someone who thinks they are better than the rest of them. Just nuts.

Unfortunately, I think our culture takes this "habit" and runs with it. It gets pounded into young women from early on what the "ideal" is for beauty & fashion. If you don't measure up, you can forget it.
I just want to know why it is that wrinkled, pot-bellied, balding men are considered to have character, but wrinkled, over-weight women are just called fat cows or worse.

[AngryAmish]

24. Evolution is a bitch, isn't it

Every competes for the best mate and most resources for one's children. We come hard wired that way. (We are hard wired in other ways, better ways but one takes the bitter with the sweet).

Cross culturally men have an ideal of what is a beautiful woman: clear eyes and skin, youthful, symetrical features and a certain breast-waist-hip ratio. And not pregnant. There is a range of what is attractive (ie some cultures value heftiness more than others) through culturesd but the basics are the same. It sends signals that the female can bear children and is young enough not to die before the kid can fend for themselves.

Why middle aged man more valued over middle aged woman in the sexiness dept.? Men are valued for resources, females for child-bearing capacity.

All told -- It is not our culture only. We are pack animals. Some things are human nature and we have to fight to overcome the bad parts of our nature.

[sendero]

27. Exactly..

... the root cause of behaviors in men and women that are often characterized as pathalogical are in fact nothing more or less than ordinary biology.

Once you recognize that fact, getting along with the opposite sex becomes much easier. :)

[tigereye]

40. ah, but we don't have to be "ruled" by biology

or by sociobiology either.

[sendero]

43. Well..

... we don't "have" to, but most of us are to some degree or other. The person whose life is totally controlled by rational though is rare indeed, I've never known one.

[tigereye]

57. true, that might be a bit scary

but we do have the ability to be aware and act on that awareness. Some might even call that enlightenment. ;)

[sendero]

58. I'm not sure..

... that there's a whole helluva lot of that floating around these days :)

I guess I was trying to relate something I had to learn in my own life. You have to allow for people being people and not expect them to always do the rational thing. We are guided by instinct also.

[raccoon]

I hate to say it, but working in an environment that is 100% female,

or close to it, is like that.

[Stardust]

119. Sadly, yes. There's a freaky bond that occurs when women band against

each other. I've gone home feeling sick because all we did was bash the boss(es) all day. At my current job, I avoid that tendency assiduously. No lunching with the ladies, no social contact outside of work. It might be lonely, but the ugly side is kept at bay.

[Arkansas Granny]

46. I can certainly understand her reasoning. I have worked in offices

with many women and I've worked for companies where I was the only woman employed. I have found that I would much rather work with a bunch of guys than a bunch of women. Where I work now there is only one other woman and we don't share an office. Suits me fine.

[blonndee]

67. I have too, and I agree.

Now I love both men and women (quite literally!) and I know that generalizations are just that, but in MY experience, guys have been easier to work with because they tend to not tear each other down and best of all: when you have a disagreement, that's all it is. It doesn't have to be a big DRAMA and go on for months or years and ruin morale and possibly end up with one or more persons quitting or even getting fired. Every office job I've had with women I've hated because I just cannot stand conflict and tension and don't like to play backbiting games. Not that I'm completely innocent, but anyway. Just my experience, which seems a lot like yours.

[NewJeffCT]

51. My wife is like that, too

She hated it when she worked in an office with all women. She'd rather be the only woman in an office, I think, if she had a choice between the two.

[unpossibles]

3. sadly, I think you're semi-right here

I'm not sure that "jealous" is the word I would use, but in some ways most women I know are far more competitive than most men I know. Perhaps not as much about specific events, but in general.

This is a sterotype obviously, but it is something I have noticed, although I think it may be more nurture than nature, in that I doubt it is something inherent in women as much as competition created by the way our society treats women, including the way the women in our society treat each other and often hold each other to higher standards than they do men.

[GirlinContempt]

25. Jealous didn't seem quite right

at least, not for all cases.

[Divameow77]

4. So it's bad when I call Paris Hilton a skank?

All joking aside, I agree with you. It's sad that women can be so hateful towards a woman they don't even know.

[unpossibles]

5. I'm a guy and I think she's a skank....

but I don't think that way of everyone who uses sexuality to sell themselves; I just don't like her.

I guess I look at it this way: using sex to sell something is not inherently a bad thing (look at rock and roll's long history of it), but it better have something besides that to back it up ot it comes across as vapid and shallow. For instance, I think Paris is pretty untalented as far as I can tell, and I don't like the food at Hooters, so I don't support either.

[Katina]

13. no, she is one, but Usher is too

and that's the problem. She's trash, but so is Usher. The difference is, he's glorified for being a man-whore.

double standards still exist.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. Glorified by whom?

I don't know a single male that likes him. It's all women that do. Can't blame that one on men.

I'm male and think he's fucking nasty for what it's worth.

[Katina]

21. well,

I would say the young males & females in their teens and early 20s who are fans of his. Just because you think he's nasty doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot out there who think he's cool player

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

29. Like I said, I don't know a single man that glorifies him.

I'm sure there are a few, but the disparity of men to women that glorifies him is quite large, I can guarantee you that.

[Katina]

33. really?

then why do so many young men want to be "players?" It seems to me if they held someone like Usher in such disdain, they would not want to behave as he does. Yet, quite the opposite is true...putting another notch in the bedpost is what it's all about. They may not specifically point to Usher, but it's the same idea. Males are called "players" and that's consider cool, but females are called skanks, whores or worse. So I repeat, the double standard still exists.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. Did I say a double standard doesn't exist?

But if you want to talk about double standards, why do women glorify the likes of Madonna and Britney Spears that put out the idea that it's okay to act like men (aka players) instead of women that demand men act more responsibly? And also, last I checked, it takes two to tango, so how exactly are men allowed to be "players" without willing female co-conspirators? Wouldn't the idea of players be eliminated altogether if tables were turned?

A lot of men suck. I'm a man, and though I have never acted that way in my life, I apologize on behalf of many in my gender. That said, women share a heap of the responsibility here. There'd be no such thing as a player if women didn't allow it to happen.

All this is to say that one shouldn't just point the dirty end of the stick at those evil men. We're not alone in shouldering the blame.

edit: typo

[Katina]

38. the whole point of this thread

was about how mean women are to other women, not about making men the bad guy. My only point was that there is a double standard. I think that standard was set by religious groups (remember the scarlet letter?) and that standard exists to this day. From the days of women as chattel, the double standard has been a way to control women. Even to this day, it's widely believed that men should be excused for promiscuous behaviour because they "need" it..but women who engage in such behavior are sluts. Why?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

42. I can't answer why men are somehow "excused". I've never understood it.

The only thing I can say about having the double standard for women, beyond ideas of control or religion, is that women become pregnant whereas men cannot, and prior to the days where women could actually financially support a child on their own, a woman stuck with a child and no one to financially support it was practically a death sentence. It's still pretty tough being a single mother, even with advances in female employment practices, deadbeat dad laws (combined with paternity testing), and a growing sense of male responsibility (perhaps you don't see it as a woman, but it's definitely there and only getting better). Perhaps that's part of why the double standard is there - as sort of a defense mechanism. Just my $.02.

Again, I abhor the idea that men can be "players" and have not so much as had a single "random" sexual encounter in my entire life. I don't think rectifying the double standard situation should include an increase in female promiscuity, but rather an increase in responsibility for men and holding us to a higher standard.

[Katina]

50. neither have I...but it's there

and I agree, to rectify the "double standard" should mean holding both men & women to a higher standard of behavior and stop "glorifying" the antics of the Paris Hilton's and the Usher's of the world.

[deucemagnet]

107. Just my $0.02 on Paris Hilton.

I kind of feel sorry for the woman. As far as I can tell, she's been labeled a "skank" because of a personal tape of sex acts was stolen and made public, and because her blackberry was stolen and the racy pictures on it were made public. Yes, she's a public figure and a trust fund baby, but that doesn't give us the right to invade her privacy and ridicule her.

[LaraMN]

6. Unfortunately, yes.

I think it's lousy. I value my female friendships a great deal. The fact is, the experience of being female is fundamentally different from the male experience, and as such, I believe women should seek to support one another. I like to think I have something of a sisterhood with my girlfriends, and I don't like to play catty mind games with other women. I think it undermines the bond we should share as females, and it certainly doesn't serve to elevate my self-worth. I don't have room in my life for people who get off on stupid, petty, self-serving behaviors, and I don't think anyone else should, either; life is hard enough without creating issues for ourselves or others. I don't know how we "fix" any of it. One person at a time, I guess.

[GirlinContempt]

9. That's one of the reasons I like you

:D I don't know how we 'fix' any of this, either. But I somehow just don't think that buying into it and using it to our own temporary advantage is going to help, no matter what the solution.

[NewWaveChick1981]

7. Probably. That's the million-dollar question.

I think many of the women who do that are insecure and are trying to make themselves feel better by belittling or criticizing others. I have never been one to criticize others' appearances, and I guess I naively expect the same courtesy in return. The ugly name-calling and cattiness is just uncalled for.

The only person I judge about appearances is myself. I learned long ago that there were things I could change about myself and things I couldn't. I work on the ones I can change and don't worry about the rest. I wish more of us could do this---it's very liberating!

I think my attitudes were shaped very early on. I remember a kid in first grade being picked on because she was fat and wore glasses. I felt very bad that the other kids teased her. I made friends with her, and one day she asked me why I was her friend. I said, "Because you're fun to be around." She said, "But I'm fat." And I said, "So what?" and smiled at her. The teacher overheard that and asked me to see her after class. I thought I was in trouble, but the teacher told me that she was so proud of me---she had never heard another child be so nice to another one who obviously needed a friend. I said, "But she's really nice, and I like her!" The teacher gave me a big hug and told me not to stop doing that. I made lots of good friends by being good to other kids, and my best friend still today is one of the "weird kids" I befriended in second grade. Sure, she was and still is offbeat, but that's what makes things interesting.

I really despise the fact that women are so hypercritical of one another. :(

[GirlinContempt]

12. You seem to have

the right attitude goin' on :hug:

[NewWaveChick1981]

19. Thanks!

:hug: :hi: I can't stand to hear people call each other "skanks" and "whores" and other names like that. Ones who do need to take a good look at themselves before hurling insults. :)

[Misunderestimator]

8. Sometimes I do wonder.

I've experienced some surprising maliciousness from women this past year that I have rarely experienced from men. Prior to that, I would have objected to your post, thinking that highlighting this problem between women only gives men a reason to see themselves as better than us.

I suppose it has to do with insecurity in women, whether that comes from something genetic or society or a combination, I don't know. But it's a brand of insecurity I don't often see in men. Men tend to support one another in the ways that women tear eachother apart (generally speaking, as I know plenty of women who don't do this).

I doubt that it's a jealousy thing as much as pure insecurity, the need for certain women to insult other women's appearances, or to gossip and distort things to malign other women. Certainly makes you go hmmm.

[GirlinContempt]

14. I know you aren't

making this argument, but I'm gonna say it anyway:

I've had the "you're just giving men a reason to think they're better" argument brought up on me once. And all I could say to that was, "No, I'm not. WOMEN are by constantly tearing each other apart. My questioning the reasoning for it is far less damaging to womens image then the constant devaluing done each and every day"

[Misunderestimator]

18. Yeah, I think were on the same page there.

And it's a damn shame.

[smirkymonkey]

105. I think it's because women have so little "real power" in the world

that they become manipulative and catty in order to exert a false kind of power among their peers. It's deep insecurity and self-hatred, I believe, that cause women to lash out at one another.

I remember reading a while back something about the infighting among oppressed groups in society, whether it be women, minorities, etc. They often feel that because they can't take out thier frustrations on their oppressors for fear of reprisal, they in turn take it out on each other due to a lack of constructive options for changing their situation.

I think that women on the whole have a lot of very deep, buried rage at being treated like second class citizens for centuries and that awakening to the reality of how oppressed they have been and continue to be is difficult to cope with. I think the rage just boils over into these catty incidents that go on everywhere, everyday. It's more complicated than that, but I do think there is a reason for such behavior.

That being said, I work in NYC in the Beauty industry and the backstabbing, phoniness and cattiness are outrageous. I really can't stand my job anymore because of it, even though I have never really been interested in fashion or beauty to begin with. It was just an opportunity that I thought I would pursue, but after being their for only a year I now find it almost intolerable.

[kiraboo]

10. I actively try to avoid jealousy or competetiveness with other

women unless, sadly, the woman is in direct competition with me for something I want. But generally speaking, when I feel the urge to strangle somebody because she is beautiful, or young, or otherwise better off than I am, I stifle the urge and instead try to make her a friend. This defuses any tension I might feel and sometimes ends up in my forming a great new relationship.

[GirlinContempt]

15. That sounds like a good approach.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Unfortunately, I think the answer is yes.

I *thought* I had a rock solid relationship with a woman who lived two doors down from me several years ago. We started out much the same, kids the same ages, husbands earning about the same.

When my husband's career took off and her husband got canned, she stopped talking to me. She didn't stop talking about me however, as loud and as long as she could to anyone who would listen.

It took me years to figure out why some folks just avoided me and more time to allow them to get to know me well enough to realize that she was the demon, not me.

It made me pretty jaded for a while. Actually, she might have done me a favor. I really don't care what folks think about me anymore, so that might have come from the relationship disaster with her, or it might just be age. I just kind of go along, do my thing, and try to do the right thing by folks. :shrug:

[GirlinContempt]

26. Ouch

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[Midlodemocrat]

28. Yeah, at the time it sucked.

Mainly because I had no idea what I had done wrong. My first clue as to her character should have been when she started asking me about 'all the dirt' on the neighbors. I don't go there, it made me uncomfortable and should have been an enormous red flag.

[AngryAmish]

20. Yup

It is our nature (mankind not just women).

[GirlinContempt]

30. That's depressing.

But, I don't know if I agree. It was also 'our nature' to fling feces at each other and the like. I don't think just 'nature' is a full reason, or even a valid longstanding excuse.

[miss_american_pie]

22. I think what we're taught in childhood can be stronger

than any rational adult thought.

The more I think about this, from what I remember the insults and bitchery started among girls long before puberty so I think it's more than a competition for men issue. Unless that issue is largely biological and inborn.

And I do think women learn early to use words as weapons where it's acceptable for boys to fight physically.

[GirlinContempt]

31. Oh, I don't think that it's just about competition for men

Though I do think it shows up far more frequently in that situation. I'm leaning toward the old 'make someone else feel worse than you do to make yourself feel better' idea.

[miss_american_pie]

34. I'd have to agree there

Really secure women don't seem to do it as much, if at all.

[tigereye]

41. yes

'make someone else feel worse than you do to make yourself feel better' idea.


it's a terrible one. To me that kind of behavior is a sign of low self-esteem. People should work on themselves and enjoy other's differences. Most of my women friends ( at least the ones I have kept for many years) aren't petty that way.

[NewJeffCT]

59. I agree - it's not competition for men

I think you make a good point there, in that women learn to use words as their weapons, while men are sometimes taught to use their fists. Men can also use insults are sort of a bonding experience, too. (Your momma is so ugly...)

It is not always about competition for men. When I got out of college in 1989, I went to work for a large corporation that was known to be a good place for women to work, and it still is today. However, the department I worked in was even more women friendly than the rest of the company, as two of the most senior people in the department were women – almost like a two woman “Old Girl’s Network.” Neither of these two women was competing for eligible bachelors and/or stealing boyfriends, as both were older & married.

However, the other women in the department – and outside the department – referred to them as “The Witch and The Bitch.”

[miss_american_pie]

60. Maybe it's resources then?

I haven't worked in so long I had forgotten about that.

[bridgit]

23. pft, we're aware of the games we're able to play...

:rofl:

[Deep13]

32. Holy crap yes.

Women are horrible to each other. Someone told me that the reason women go to the restroom in groups is not to confer outside the hearing of men, but to make sure none of them is left alone with the men. Jesus Christ, get a grip! Any dude who is that easily led away is not reliable anyway. Women will never be equal participants in this world until they stop undermining each other. Men are competetive, but Jesus, by and large we know that today's fortune might be tomorrow's famine. We try not to burn bridges. (Broad statement, I know. I'm talking about generalities not specific individuals.)

[Katina]

35. now wait a second

everyone knows that women go to the bathroom together so that they can pass toilet paper to each other when one of the booths invariably has run out of paper! :silly:

[Deep13]

37. "Not a square to spare."

[bumblebee1]

47. As my husband put it,

watch whose toes you step on. They may be attached to the *ss you might have to kiss later.

[tigereye]

39. nicely said!

:thumbsup:

[Mother Jones]

44. Great question......

and some thoughtful analysis as well.


What really gets me, beyond the general question itself, is women in the workplace tearing each other down. We have fought for generations to be recognized in business, and for those who have made it, to rip the rest of us apart is disheartening, to say the least.

In this case, I have to go with jealousy as the reason. (from personal experience)

[Lilith Velkor]

45. "Are we really raised to view one another as competition?"

Yes.

>If so, are we really so stupid that we can see 'patriarchy' as all that it is and still gorge ourselves on the remains of another womans self image?

No, women who do that are in denial concerning the answer to the first question, and this denial causes them to be unable to see patriarchy, or recognize it even if it bit them in their collective ass.

One of the most painful things I've had to give up is the hope of ever having a female friend again. I have naturally large breasts, and even if I won a lottery and could afford a reduction, the damage is already done.

[NewWaveChick1981]

48. That is so sad...

The fact that other women would be so shallow as to exclude you because of your chest size is heartbreaking. :cry: And it makes me sick to witness the pettiness and cruelty with which many women treat each other. I'm sorry that you've had to deal with that crap. :hug:

[bridgit]

52. too many women blame 'patriarchy' for their own snide/snippy...

behavioral patterns; is 'patriarchy' responsible for a women placing herself in front of a privately owned & operated camera with great & studied intent, shock of hair just so, placed over sultry demeanors, in front of a bottle of booze?

'patriarchy'...the one size fits all excuse, sung to a one note melody

[GirlinContempt]

64. I agree.

[bridgit]

74. cheers...

:toast:

[liontamer]

49. not all women

I think having female relatives adds to it. I had brothers and I don't automatically see women as competition. I get kind of weirded out when I realize that some of my friends (who have sisters or female cousins close in age) do see me as a threat somehow.

Which doesn't mean I won't talk shit about people. It's kind of a NYC thing to criticize people based on their appearance. It has nothing to do with gender of either the critic or the one being critiqued.

[Ramsey]

53. As an academic...

I have run into the anti-beauty bias a lot. In fact, for several years I was primarily a basic scientist. Now as a clinician I get less flak or censure. But I've known lots of women in academics who thought that wearing make-up and bothering to comb your hair was being "superficial". Apparently it saps your intellect or something. I had more than one female mentor tell me that they had to work twice as hard to be thought half as good and that they purposely made themselves look frumpy in order to be taken seriously by their male colleagues. Apparently otherwise intelligent men cannot comprehend that beauty and brains can exist in the same person.

Two girlfriends and I once attended the American Association of Women in Medicine meeting; we were the officers for our med school. This was in the late 80's, and we are all nice looking women. We showed up at the first session in mini skirts and make up and I've never seen such disdainfully stares from the feminazis! (I proudly consider myself a feminist, so I'll claim the right to use that word.)

Well, I ignored all of this advice. I have always made some effort to dress well (buying nice clothes is a bit of a vice for me!) and I have always worn enough make up to look presentable, more like in the business world. I couldn't feel good about myself if I purposefully tried to make myself look ugly and I don't believe I should have to just to be accepted. Of course, I am a blond (yes, naturally), so I have the biggest stereotype handicap in the academic world. But I always reasoned that people would take me seriously when I showed them what I knew and what I could do. This has worked for me and I have a had a successful academic career for over a decade now.

So I'd say, screw the skeptics and be yourself. Others put you down because they are insecure generally. They need not concern you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. When I was in academia, the men tended to be so sexist

that the women stuck together for moral support.

I can remember exactly one occasion when I was done wrong by a woman colleague, but even more occasions when I or other women were subjected to sexist treatment or remarks.

[lukasahero]

54. None of the women I am friends with behave that way

If they did, I wouldn't be friends with them.

Women are (GASP!) people and as such, some will behave differently than others.

Some could argue all men are assholes but they'd get their ass chewed out here in short order (must use "SOME"). But it's ok to disparage women as a group - maybe as long as it's a woman (or girl) doing the disparaging? For shame.

[Misunderestimator]

56. This really isn't about disparaging women...

It's about discussing why this dynamic SOMETIMES exists that women put eachother down. I don't have any friends like this either, nor am myself that way, but I have experienced it from women who I know and from complete strangers who are women. And I've seen it here on DU, where women put down other women and gossip among themselves about other women in ways I hardly ever see men do to other men.

Not to say that men don't put women down in much the same way, and worse, but the difference, generally speaking, is that men don't usually put *eachother* down the way that women sometimes put eachother down. I don't often hear men speak of other men insulting their appearance, their lack of muscles, their ugliness, their lack of hair, their promiscuousness, whatever it may be, the same way women sometimes describe other women as skanks or whores or fat or ugly or speculating that she-must-have-had-plastic-surgery, the list goes on.

A year ago, I might have reacted much the same way as you did, but I've experienced this dynamic myself recently, and I think that it warrants examination.

[lukasahero]

73. Hi M

If I remember correctly, you're about my age - early 40's. So, according to what you have just said, last year you experienced a dynamic that you had not experienced in 40 years prior of dealing with women (assuming of course in 40 some years you had dealt with one or two). Having met some in the last year who did behave this way, you are now willing to discount the 40 years of history you have with women who did not behave this way to question why "women" do behave this way?

Perhaps, instead, you should wonder what's up with these particular individuals rather than wonder what's up with "women"?

You know I love you, M. This is just discussion, not an attack. :hug:

FTR - Men are the downright inventors of the meaning of "pissing contest". They don't put each other down? You're kidding, right? Differently, maybe. Not at all? Not on my planet.

ETA - my husband was one of those "90 lb weaklings" (hmm, but men don't put each other down based on appearance? Wonder who invented that phrase?) He can tell you what it's like to be a man of lesser size in today's world. It's just as ugly as it is for women of greater size...

[Misunderestimator]

84. Not exactly...

Yes, I'm in my early 40s, but this dynamic I experienced this year brought to light for me a lot of other experiences that I have had in the past. Some of which I attributed to having been an opera singer, and the natural competition that comes with that from other women... fine, that's explainable. But others not so much. Early in my life, I had a horrible experience with a group of five friends who turned on me and gossiped about me and played with and betrayed my feelings. Then later in college, again, explainable since it was a music conservatory, therefore competitive. Then fast-forward to this past year, and it's not so explainable any longer as these were women I hardly knew and who hardly knew me.

I'm not saying that women are awful, just that in some cases they can be. And maybe it's just that it's so much more important that we stick up for eachother because we do have so much ground to cover, that it seems more obvious when we don't.

Yeah, maybe I'm a little down on the whole thing right now because of my recent experience. And yeah, men do have pissing contests, but the putting down eachother is so different than what we do when we put eachother down it seems.

I don't discount all the wonderful women I've known in my life who are confident and secure and loving and kind who don't fit this particular stereotype. And I appreciate you reminding me that I shouldn't. And I suppose in the end that women's brand of pettiness towards other women is less destructive in the end than men's. It's still an interesting topic to consider. Forgetting whether or not men do this to one another, why do we do this to eachother?

(And I know it's not an attack... I love you too, L :hug:)

[lukasahero]

86. We do it to each other for the same reasons everyone does

People are insecure and frightened. We're all just struggling to do the best we can. I guess I would like to believe that women would stick up for other women just because they're women but I don't expect that from any other "group" so I'm not all that surprised when women act as individuals protecting their own self-interest as well. To expect otherwise would be to lean towards the 'women are superior' argument and I don't believe that.

I've met petty, jealous, nasty women in my life. I've met just as many (and far worse) men.

Maybe the discussion would have been better positioned in a positive light. There are just too many men on this thread jumping at the opportunity to yell "hell yeah" to how horrible women are to each other for me to find the particular discussion all that enlightening.

FTR, we did have a similar discussion in the FG a while back and it WAS enriching. It wasn't an opportunity to just bitch about how awful women are to each other - it considered the cultural aspects of how that behavior is nurtured and encouraged in some circles. Unfortunately, I've seen little evidence in this thread that the discussion will go beyond that.

I'm sorry anyone was horrible to you, M. Having worked in music myself (and if you think Opera is tough try being the only female on stage in a rock band where all the chicks in the club are trying to get the attention of the band members!), I do know how competitive and petty it can be.

[Misunderestimator]

92. Your points are well taken.

I guess I just hoped to be able to have this particular discussion without it having any ramifications of anyone thinking "hell yeah" but... I also know that's pretty much impossible here. I, like you, have met far worse men in my life than women. No woman, for example, has ever hit me. And no woman has ever physically intimidated me or tried to use their position of authority to get me to sleep with them.

As for sticking up for women just because they are women... I do feel that impetus in myself. Just as I feel it for other gay people. Just as men feel it for other men. I don't think it's a superiority thing at all, just a comradery thing. And in many women, that comradery seems to be lacking. Sure, insecurity and fear, but why does the insecurity and fear manifest in that way when it doesn't seem to manifest the same way in men? Again, I'm not saying men are better (far from it), just different, and it's that difference that interests me.

[lukasahero]

94. Maybe it's just knowing how my husband is treated by other men

and how I've been treated by other women that's getting in my way. He used to be tiny, and a math nerd (No, seriously, he majored in math in college and was the damn valedictorian. Ok, stop laughing. ;) )

I have always stuck up for other women (um, irony alert - I'm pretty sure that's what I'm doing in this damn thread...) I have at least 3 times in my life told guys I was interested in who were interested in me that I couldn't date them because my friend was interested in them. I don't have friends who shred each other like that, and, maybe it's just luck of the draw but, most of the women I have worked with in my life don't behave like that either. We are largely supportive of each other. Maybe it's because I work in IT and there are so few of us to begin with we recognize the need to support each other? Maybe I just hang out with a more educated group of women?

My husband, on the other hand, has lived his life being taunted by other "men" who think because he's small he's not as much of a "man" as they are. (If they only f*ing knew!) So I've seen more of the pettiness from men than I've ever seen from women. (Not to mention the numerous guys I work with in IT whose sole mission in a day is to find someone else to blame things on rather than accept responsibility for their own mistakes.)

[Misunderestimator]

96. Interesting...

My *second* career after I quit singing, is IT, and I have had the same experience as you, having met literally NO women who are competitive or backstabbing in the ways described in this thread. Have had the same experience also with many of the men I've worked with in this field as you. Very interesting indeed.

[lukasahero]

100. Ha. Are you me?

Oh yeah, the husband part probably precludes that, huh? ;)

I know alot of folks who move from music to IT. I also know alot of women who suffer the slings and arrows of hostile pettiness in the music biz (but come on, talk about a ridiculously competitive field!) only to gobsmacked at the support and camaraderie they find in IT. (Not necessarily from the men...)

That's the part of this discussion that baffles me. I have worked with and for the most awesome women and the (very) few I've encountered that are petty bitches (and I always use that word sparingly), I attribute to individuals who are shallow, frightened and insecure. Most of us just ignore them. Most of us understand that putting down someone else says more about the speaker than it does the speak-ee.

[Misunderestimator]

101. It really is very intriguing.

Perhaps it's the fact that being a woman in IT requires a lot of self-confidence in the first place. Whatever it is, I'm glad that it's a wholly different experience than music was. Although, aside from the competitiveness, I do miss a lot of the other stuff.

So here I am turning completely around and agreeing that I have known only a rarified group of women who were backstabbing and gossiping and conniving... when I was a child, when I was a musician, and more recently online. In my day-to-day life in the *real* world my experience has been completely different, and most of the women I've known have been supportive and inspiring.

Hey, thanks for that. And goodnight. :hi:

[lukasahero]

102. OMG - your recent experience was online!

Sorry, but you pretty much have to discount anything and everything that happens on line. I have met the most vicious, backstabbing, horrible human beings I could ever have imagined in online forums! (Or at least lump it together with your childhood experiences. ;) )

FTR, and as evidenced here, I have also met some of the neatest, most interesting, kindest, caring and gentle people in the same venue. What a crap shoot, huh? ;)

I'm off to bed. It was great chatting with you again. Peace.

[GirlinContempt]

66. My female friends don't either, which is a huge reason we're friends.

I'm not arguing all women are anything. And I'm not disparaging women as a group. In fact, I find this comment to be quite hilarious, because I'm concerned about the damage we women seem to do to OURSELVES, and you're concerned that I as a woman am damaging women as a whole. :think:

Some women will behave differently from others, but this is something I see as a huge trend in womens behavior toward one another. That isn't disparaging all women, it's discussing something I (and apparently a few other women) have noticed. Disagree? Add something productive to the discussion please.

[lukasahero]

71. Funny,

I thought I did add something productive to the discussion. Namely, why do we use the words "Do women do this" when we could use the words "Why do some people do this..." Women are people and have been raised as individuals just as men are. We react and behave as individuals just as men do. We don't allow men to be discussed in generalities around here so why would we do so about women?

Are there women who behave like this? I'm sure there are. I haven't met many. I have met a lot of men and women who behave badly and I try to assess them as individuals, not by their gender.

Think about it. Would you have been comfortable asking the question "Are blacks just..." or "are gays just..." or "are Jews just..." or "are Islamists just..." My belief is no, you would not. So why is it ok when it refers to women?

Edited to correct typo.

[GirlinContempt]

76. But, see, the thing is, it's a gender specific thing

and I, along with others, have noticed many women who do this. That doesn't mean that all do, but it also doesn't mean that discussing it in the terms of 'women' is wrong, because it's gender specific. There are some questions I would be comfortable asking about Jews or gays or what have you, if they were things that were confined to that sexual orientation or religion. It's fine when it refers to women, because it's a gender specific question.

Generalizing isn't a great idea, but neither is losing your point among wandering sentences "Why do some women (and also some men) sometimes do this? Are some women (and maybe some men) guilty of x t z?". Another not so great idea is to pretend that all things are gender equal or neutral, because they aren't.

[lukasahero]

77. read my post to misunderestimator and tell me it's a gender specific thing

My husband was the proverbial "90 lb weakling". Who do you think made up that phrase? But women put other women down and men don't, huh? Not in my world.

[GirlinContempt]

78. Did I say men don't put each other down?

That would be a ridiculous thing to say. Which is why I didn't say it.

[lukasahero]

79. Perhaps I misunderstood

"So many of us pick each other apart, we call one another names, and degrade women around us" Are you suggesting that by asking this question only of women that one should assume you're also asking the question of men? Because if that's the case, why didn't you ask "Why do so many people pick each other apart..."

Look, men and women both behave badly. Both pick each other apart. Both call each other names. Why do we believe that the reason women do it is any different than the reason men do it? People do it because they are immature and insecure. Both genders do it for the same reason: to make themselves feel better, superior.

I just think when we single it out as particular behavior of women we are participating in the very same behavior we are questioning...

[GirlinContempt]

80. Ok, NOT asking that question of men does not mean that I'm saying men

never do that. I'm not asking that question about men, because this is specifically about WOMENS BEHAVIOR, especially women who claim to be feminists and yet still treat other women like shit based on the very things they claim to be against. That IS different, and I personally have found the behavior in and of itself to be different, period. Different than anything I've seen of man on man bitching, or man on woman bitching. I don't think that it's all for the same reason, and there are gender differences. Questioning why women do it isn't participating in that behavior, it's asking a question about behavior in women. If you think it ISN'T different, say that, and explain why. That's fine. But to try and make some argument that I'm disparaging women because I'm not asking similar questions about men is silly, and the idea that we can't have a conversation about specific gender behavior is ridiculous. Because that's what I'm questioning, not that people are mean, but this specific behavior as it relates to gender.

[lukasahero]

81. And here I thought we were having a conversation

Is it still a conversation if we disagree?

Perhaps it all comes down to what my mother taught me: people dislike in other people what they dislike in themselves.

I don't behave like this. The extreme majority of women I have known in my life don't behave like this. So I attribute the behavior to individuals, not genders.

[GirlinContempt]

82. Well, I guess what I'm saying is

while I attribute it to individuals as well (I don't think ALL women are like this), you're too focused on the gender. The gender separation is there because I (and others) perceive the type of behavior to be different in women than in men, so when discussing it, qualifying gender is necessary. Making that qualification isn't calling all women on the carpet for the behavior of some, it's making a distinction in the type of behavior. And I do believe you've seen less of I than I, and others on this thread, mainly because so many seemed to know exactly what I was talking about right away. You're very lucky, I'm not saying that to imply you're wrong or stupid, just something I noticed.

But, if we're going to have 'conversations' in the future, you'll have to let me in on where some of this stuff comes from, because it didn't come from me.

[lukasahero]

83. 'Nuff said

"because I (and others) perceive the type of behavior to be different in women than in men" I don't. I think it's a mark of immaturiy and insecurity. I'm sorry you (and all the others you keep referring to on this thread who agree with you) see so much of this. Maybe I just have different view of people.

And I'm off to bed. Have a good night! :hi:

PS - thank you for not implying I'm "wrong or stupid". It never occured to me you were (or that I was). Again with that what we dislike in others perhaps we dislike in ourselves thingie... ;)

[GirlinContempt]

85. More like

"this is the internet, and shit gets taken way outta context way to fast".

But, if you're implying I dislike implying people are wrong or stupid, ok *shrug*

[lukasahero]

87. Wanna run that one by me again?

"if you're implying I dislike implying people are wrong or stupid"

What I'm implying is perhaps a bit of insecurity on your part. I assume the people I am talking to know I don't think they're stupid - I wouldn't be talking to them otherwise - and I know I'm not so I'm just not sure why you felt the need to include the caveat.

[GirlinContempt]

88. I'm insecure

because I wanted to ensure that, in an online disagreement, you didn't get the wrong impression, as people often do. Right. Whatever. :eyes:

[lukasahero]

89. My mistake

TTFN

[pitohui]

97. you can't win this game, lukasahero

read the exchange further down, this is abt some issue the OP has w. her baby sister and abt proving her superiority to said baby sister

[GirlinContempt]

99. Uh,

I don't think she's trying to 'win' anything, I think she's exchanging ideas with me in a relatively polite manner for the most part. And you don't know what you're talking about, so, maybe try to be less 'upset' and 'angry' because you didn't like my reply.

[jadedconformist]

55. My brother and I...

have had girlfriends that hated our other women friends for no valid reason at all. My then girlfriend and my brother's girlfriend would gossip about our women friends together. They would not want to go anywhere with any of them. They really had no basis for disliking them. I even asked them exactly what our friends did in order for them to detest them so much. All they could do is just say that they're slutty. "How so?" They could never give me an answer. Basically, their hatred for them became a self-fulfilling prophecy and led them to find any reason to support why they felt this way about our friends. What's funny is that our friends didn't have a clue as to why they were disliked. They were nothing but friendly to our girlfriends. Drama much?

[ismnotwasm]

61. Naw

Women and men tend to arrange themselves in a type of pecking order. The more damaged one is by patriarchy the less one is able to handle another's confidence, success or the perceived or actual power of beauty. I've heard men be just as shitty about one another, although looks isn't as often a factor, and anyway a current culture beautiful male, is often under suspicion for being "gay"

Repeat an untruth often enough and it becomes truth to some. I heard about women being jealous of one another all of my 46 years, and I've never found jealousy to be gender specific. Ever.

I avoid gender specific name calling no matter how mad I am. I don't always get there. I work in a predominantly female field and I'm pleased to report that I don't see that type of behavior much. I did see it in my teenagers, so I consider it a form of immaturity. I have a lot of hope in the young women I work with.
I've friends, both men and women with that evenness and symmetry of feature that says "beauty" to so many of us.

I don't by the "biological" beauty arguments, because our current vision of beauty doesn't exactly have chile' bearing hips, if you know what I mean. And a young vigorous male is much more likely to have viable sperm than a middle aged man who appears established. I've always thought that stuff was patriarchal bullshit.


In fact as far as I'm concerned all bets are off as far gender "scientific" studies, until women have equality in all areas. Nothing that's going to happen soon. Culturally, women lost a few millenniums back, and the powerless find subtle ways to make themselves heard.

Evolution is not just Survival of the fittest, as any biology 101 class tells us. It's a complex way of evolving without any specific design that includes random mutations as well as gene jumping, sexual selection etc.

[AngryAmish]

62. You may not "buy" the science of beauty

But unless you have better scientific explanation why men find the same breast/waist/hip ratio attractive across all cultures then you may be well served to pay attention to the existing work done in the field. Madison Ave. may not appreciate 'chile bearing hips but other cultures within America do. I commend to you the song "Baby's Got Back" from Sir Mix-a-Lot for an insight into African-Americans beauty images. Guess what? Men in both cultures like women with the same ratio if not gross size.

Reproductive strategies in modern humans tend to be pair bonds. Organ transplant folks realize that a significant (5-10% if I recall the statistics correctly) of children of "fathers" actually do not share DNA with their "fathers". In that case the mothers have selected another and suckered the "father" into providing resources (or at least exposed herself to a lot of genetic material ((or was just not careful with birth control)).

My point: We are animals who must use our intellect to make life fair.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Ok

I was talking about the current white standard of beauty, evidently. I'm so glad you can use "Baby got Back" as an example of culture variance. My white, tall, willowy daughter's black husband needs to know he's out of style. I'll be sure to inform him.

I'm a transplant nurse and I find your statistics absolutely fascinating. But that's a bit off topic.

I do agree with your last line however. Except I can't recall the last time I noticed life was ever "fair"

[lukasahero]

72. I *heart* you ismnotwasm eom

[ScreamingMeemie]

63. Only if they choose to be. I have seen people (even here) do horrific

things to "friends" because of I guess what you would call jealousy. I have seen it destroy many friendships here. But men are just as guilty...especially here.

[GirlinContempt]

68. Hm....

I'd love an example of men behaving this way. :) That isn't snarky or disbelieving, by the way :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. True..I think there's a difference between being catty

and being angry with a person. If a woman betrays a friend, she deserves contempt in all its forms. If we're going to look at ethics, why parse over some but not all?

[bedpanartist]

65. bros before hos, but why never hos before bros?

I think this is quite telling.

[caty]

70. I once read a study of how

men and woman differ in how they rally together to help one another. Example: If a woman on a sports team discovers a way to improve her performance, she would tell the others in an effort to help the team. But, a man would keep his discovery to himself so that he could look like the better player. However, if there was not a team involved and either a man or woman discover something that would help their performance, they would both keep the discovery to themselves for personal advancement.
I think that working in an office is like a team. Everyone working there wants their company to succeed, but each worker wants to look like the one who cannot be replaced. I've worked in office situations many times, and I've seen the gossip, the cliches, and the name calling behind fellow workers backs come from both genders. The gossip mostly from men, the cliches and name calling mostly from women.

If you keep in mind that we are all human ANIMALS and that as pack animals we have a chain of authority. Those who are dominate and those who submit. We have to move up in this chain through seniority and popularity just like a pack of WOLVES would.

It's a shame this behavior has to go on in "civilized" situations, but I guess it's just the animal survival instinct in us.

[idgiehkt]

75. I think we fight with our mouths instead of our fists.

We are incredibly skilled at psychological warfare. Which belies the meaning of 'stick and stones', doesn't it.

Maybe it's an agreement we reached way back in the day; we decided that fist fights spoiled our hair and make-up and made a M.A.D. pact just to use words with each other? Dunno. But I know we do it, and I underscore what someone up there said about not working in an office...I've avoided them like the plague myself for that reason.

[pitohui]

90. we're in competition for limited resources

jealous may not be the right word, certainly if i think someone is an ugly skank then i don't want to be her, on the other hand i don't want her infecting my husband or anyone i care abt w. her skanky social diseases either

nature chose to make most women physically less powerful than men, society chose to make most women politically and financially less powerful, then to top it off, large numbers of men insist on being drug addicts or just not living out a normal lifespan, so what do you do? the reality is that many women are dependent on men to put food in their mouths and anything that threatens that (such as a man-stealing skank) is a threat to survival

if you want women to talk nice abt ea. other and feel unthreatened by skanks, forget abt criticizing us for gossiping, instead, you need to work so that we can actually have equal earning power in the marketplace -- something i will never live long enough to see and have given up any hope of even dreaming of

it is also a bonding issue for the non-skanky women to be able to vent and gossip behind the skank's back, you assume it is always negative when women laugh at another woman's implants behind her back, well, it isn't always -- sometimes it is women bonding

men laugh at other men too, they just do it right in their face and pick fights, is that any more attractive, i don't think so!

our way at least doesn't lead to so much gunplay

[GirlinContempt]

93. Y'know, my little sister calls women ugly skanks.

But she doesn't believe it. Or even actually know if they are 'skanks'. She (one person) is jealous of them, for whatever reason. She shouldn't be, she doesn't need to be. But she is. She's said so. And she knows she passes this judgment on women to make them lower than herself so she can feel good. Now, that isn't always the case, but what's always been the case for me, is that I don't need to 'compete' for any 'resource'. And if a man that I'm with is going to be 'stolen' by some 'skank', 1. He's the asshole. 2. I shouldn't have been with someone who would treat me like that in the first place, so good riddance.

If you want women to be treated equally, stop tearing down other women for being 'man stealing skanks' and maybe work WITH them on something more productive than bitching about their breasts. It works both ways.

I don't need to bond with my friends based on others failings. That's just me, and I guess I'm curious why this is even a bonding topic. Why this is even a topic, period. I'm talking about something a little further in the reasoning than the surface use.

And I don't see what men's behavior has to do with this discussion. If it bothers you, fine, but just because they do it doesn't mean it's ok, be it somehow 'better' or 'worse'.

[pitohui]

95. a question was asked and i answered it accurately

i see that the answer angers you, but i'm not sure what can be done about it

best not to ask questions if you know going in that the answer will upset you

if the point of the question was to posit your superiority to your sister, the irony is delicious

[GirlinContempt]

98. I'm not angry or upset

I was just saying that I know at least one woman who does it as a jealous response, because you said it wasn't jealousy. Now, I don't think it's always jealous, but that's one experience I've had. I'm not superior to my sister, I'm different from her. And I only brought her up as counterpoint.

Your answer doesn't 'anger' me, it confuses me a little, and the questions I asked you in return (usually called a discussion) are what I'd like to know about your response.

If disagreeing with what you say or questioning it means I'm 'angry' and 'upset', I'm not sure what can be done about it. Because, I wont agree just so you wont think I'm upset.

[Jamastiene]

91. I think so sometimes.

I'm certainly jealous of other lesbians who are all suave and debonair with women. I try to talk to women, but still to this day I get all tongue tied. It turns out disastrous. What I wouldn't give for the ability to tell women how wonderful and beautiful I think they are. Alas, I can only attempt to spread my love by complimenting all the fine women of DU. You are goddesses who deserve to be worshiped and adored every minute of every day.

[Skittles]

103. no, I don't think that's it for me

when I see a woman looking or acting like a skank it pisses me off AS a woman because it denigrates all women. Capiche ???

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

108. OK - is that a Devo Megaman in your sigline?

God I love you!

[GirlinContempt]

109. Yes, yes it is

:D

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

110. Again - I wish polygamy was legal!

:D

[GirlinContempt]

111. Maybe we could just

trade off every 6 months?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

112. Roar!

[GirlinContempt]

113. Hey,

I want my 6 months with your wife too. :9

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

114. That's what I was roaring about

*runs away from judgement* :D

[GirlinContempt]

115. Not

my 6 with you? :cry: ;)

Ok, so, can we get like, matching jumpsuits?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

116. HA!!!

:D

What name will we print on said jumpsuits?

Like - "there is no fear in this dojo, is there?"

[GirlinContempt]

117. My answer is too nerdy

or lame. Or lamdy. Or Nerame.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

118. There's some wonderful responses on this thread and a lot of innuendo

I think that gives me as much a right to respond as any.

Professionally, I've not had women compete with me, nor treat me poorly nor do any of the things noted in your OP as women in law were treated as though they didn't belong there for the longest time, so we did bond. Even recently, I was at a Mandatory Settlement Conference and my male opponent called me an idiot because he was arguing that "a particular case applied and he knew it applied because he wrote the brief" on that case. We took it to the (female) judge. I made clear that not only did the case not apply but that he violated decorum in the courtroom conference when he called me an idiot. The judge not only agreed with my points but sanctioned him.

Never in my life have I been in competition with my female friends until recently it was forced upon me.

I have, however seen it done. I've witnessed a woman with two children who was going through a painful divorce being harassed by people under sockpuppet handles simply because they felt slighted by her.
I've witnessed competition and betrayal in my own life by a presumed friend.
I've witnessed popularity contests amongst various women and witnessed another woman being compared to a heavy set star on a popular 80's sitcom series by other women who really had no place to talk.

Yes, even women who think other women should be "better than that" are known to have done this. That's the thing about achilles tendons. Best not to kick others in theirs while leaving your own exposed. But that's not really about feminism nor sisterhood. But then again, neither are many many of the posts on this thread.