With the recent death of Syd, do the Brits finally have a significant...

[mitchum]

tragic popular music figure (with the possible exception of John Lennon)?

I've always noticed that the American figures are significant (Stephen Foster, Jimmie Rodgers, Robert Johnson, Hank Williams, Billy Holiday, Elvis Presley, Jimi Hendrix), were cut down in their prime, and had a profound influence on popular music, while the British figures (with the exception of Lennon) were less significant in terms of their influence
Marc Bolan: washed up pop star
Nick Drake: cult figure
Ian Curtis: cult figure

I always thought that they gave Syd a sort of honorary status- "Okay, maybe he's not dead, but he's crazzzzzzzzy"

Any thoughts on this?

[taterguy]

1. you forgot Sid Vicious

Very popular at the time of his death

[mitchum]

6. Not a musician by any stretch of the imagination...

and he had no lasting musical influence (unlike the rest of the Pistols)
He doesn't even play on "Never Mind The Bollocks"
Unfortunately, he was just a punchline.

[RedStateShame]

2. Uh, Brian Jones was pretty tragic

And how dare you disrespect Marc Bolan that way, sir.

[mitchum]

4. You are correct about Brian Jones...

right before I clicked this thread to check for responses, I said to myself, "Damn, you forgot Brian!" Pretty unforgivable on my part, considering that I am a Rolling Stones freak. I think I overlooked him because I was thinking more in terms of significance as being defined by songwriting or vocal and/or instrumental stylistic influence (the case with Holiday, Presley, and Hendrix) Brian's influence was more in how a rock star should dress, carry himself, etc...

I enjoy a lot of Marc Bolan's work immensely, but it is undeniable that he was a washed up pop star at the time of his death. My wife, who grew up in England, was surprised when she arrived here in the states and discovered that T Rex was considered as some signifier of hipness by college aged listeners. "But we all listened to T Rex, Slade, Sweet, Suzi Quatro, Bay City Rollers when we were teenyboppers. T Rex wasn't considered a heavy act"

[asthmaticeog]

3. Um, hello? Syd Barrett: cult figure

[mitchum]

11. I agree with you that he's just a cult figure

[asthmaticeog]

14. Oy, I seem to have missed the point of your list.

Upon re-reading the OP, I feel compelled to say "oops."

[Orrex]

5. I was sorry to learn of his death, but I think that he's over-worshipped

No disrespect intended, but he was in the band for three years, almost four decades ago, yet some discographers still credit any of Floyd's musical worth to Barrett.

IMO their best work came after his departure (and before Waters' departure, while we're at it). Sure, Wish You Were Here derives much from Barrett's suffering, but that's greatly different from Barrett the bandmember having a direct involvement in the music.


YMMV, of course.

[mitchum]

9. I completely agree with you about his overrated status...

however, I do feel that he truly was a pioneeer in the use of guitar feedback (Hendrix thought the same thing)
I found Barrett's songwriting in Floyd and afterwards to be too twee for my tastes.
I also agree with you that Pink Floyd's best work came after Barrett's departure.

[Orrex]

10. Good call on the guitar feedback! (nt)

[tigereye]

32. but some of us like twee!

[sendero]

36. Yeah!...

... what the fuck's wrong with twee? :evilgrin:

I'm just joking, I agree, Barrett is famous mostly for frying himself.

[tigereye]

37. but he was so much fun while he was doing it

:evilgrin: :silly: and no one looked so cool, or stoned. But those were different times.

[sendero]

38. I never saw..

... even a video of him live in the Floyd days. Hafta check out youtube :)

[mitchum]

43. Rock music should be informed by arrested adolescense...

not arrested childhood. And that's what is wrong with twee :)
And you are right, Barrett is famous mostly for frying himself. That's why I've always found something condescending and almost ghoulish about those in the Syd Barrett cult despite their declarations of appreciation and admiration.

[tigereye]

48. I like Arnold Lane

one of my buds used to cover it at shows all the time.

[mitchum]

41. Well, you would love it here in Athens...

where there is a too large contingent of twee people who are in the grip of a strange combination of infantilism and alcoholism.
Twee is just not for me. I found it silly even as a child.

[tigereye]

47. um

I was twee-king you a bit....;)

I'm into neither infantilism or alcoholism, and was always one of those uber-responsible types. I also live in Pittsburgh, where I don't think there is any twee to be had.

However, on further perusal, I don't think of Beat Happening or Shonen Knife as infantile, and since I love jangly guitars, am curious if you find the most famous denizens of Athens (assuming you mean Georgia and not Greece) as contributory to this problem.

[mitchum]

49. I honestly don't think that rem were contributory to the problem...

in fact, I used to feel that a lot of their magic back in the 80s was about capturing that vibe when you're in your late teens or early 20s and the world is full of possibilities. And they captured that feeling perfectly.
Now as far as the most semi-famous denizens of Ath are concerned, I do think that the E6 contingent were very contributory to the problem with their pantented brand of off-key infantilism. But that's really not much of a surprise. Trust fund musicians generally take one of two direction; they either "live in a unicorn fart bubble" (Thanks Patton Oswald for the phrase) or they go down the drugs and debauchery path. I always prefered the junkies myself.
But it wasn't just the caterwauling Jeff Mangum (He can't sing!) and associates who are solely responsible. It seems that the creeping tweeness began infecting alternative/underground/whatever music nationally (and internationally) in the late 80s. And I just have a personal antipathy to all that. My models were always Verlaine, Hell, Smith, Pere Ubu, etc...who all worked from a decidedly more grown up boho perspective.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean any personal offense directed at you. And I apologise if I came off that way.

[asthmaticeog]

12. A significant minority of Floydoids

prefers Syd's psychedelic music hall whimsy to what they consider the '70s incarnation's overwrought and egoistic bloat. I'm among those who'll unhesitatingly take "Piper," or even Syd's solo "The Madcap Laughs" over any other Floyd output. But yeah, absolutely, as with most aesthetic discussions, YMMV.

[Orrex]

15. "Egoistic bloat" is a great turn of phrase!

It can get a bit heavy, to be sure. I'm a big fan of lyrics, though, and some of Roger's stuff is so cleverly constructed that it wins me over despite its sometimes overblown backdrop.

[asthmaticeog]

16. Yeah, Waters did do some stuff I find worthy.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I *hate* all of the post-Barrett stuff. There are definitely moments in the Waters-dominated era that have won me over.

[Orrex]

18. No worries

Nothing inconsistent about admiring different aspects of the band's different incarnations.

I like See Emily Play and Astronomy Domine quite a bit, for example.

[tigereye]

33. ah, another reason to like you, asth

:thumbsup:

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. My thoughts on this:

the fact that you're an American, and view the question through an American cultural lens, reveals inherent bias. (For instance, Marc Bolan may be a cult figure in the US; he was much more successful and popular in the UK.)

And what about Keith Moon?

[RedStateShame]

8. And, for that matter, Bonzo?

[tigereye]

34. I was waiting for Bonzo commentary

[mitchum]

44. One of the greatest drummers, but by most accounts a violent, drunken...

dullard. I would love to have played with him, but I wouldn't have wanted to associate with that ignorant boor.

[tigereye]

46. oops, I was making a Bonzo Dog Band joke

and then I realized you were talking about Bonham. Mea culpa.

[CBGLuthier]

13. God, how could we all forget Keith Moon

I am ashamed that I did not think of him. Died way too young, immensely talented and larger than life.

Yeah, I think we have a winner.

Maybe the UK just isn't into obsessing over dead musicians like the US is?

[mitchum]

20. "Maybe the UK isn't into obsessing over dead musicians...

like the US is"???!!!
WTF???!!!
Apparently, you never read the British music publications. ALL they consist of is ruminations about dead musicians and chickenhawk-like slaverings over this week's next big thing.

[CBGLuthier]

30. Hey, I was just venturing a guess

Of course I don't read the British music pubs. I don't live in Britain. And I gave up on marketed music about 10 years ago.

But I still don't think they hold a candle to the US which has made Elvis' estate worth 10 times more dead than alive.

[mitchum]

42. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so harsh...

I live in a music town, so there is always British music rags lying around. They really are as I described. You haven't missed anything.
I'm also with you on having given up on marketed music.

But there are a couple of factors responsible for the Elvis thing. I don't care for most of his output, but he is a far more significant figure than Bolan, Drake, or Curtis (although I really enjoy the work of the last too) Parker mismanaged his career, so while he is certainly worth more dead, he could have been earning far more in the last years of his life. And, all of that Elvis necrophilia merch isn't just being bought in the US

[mitchum]

17. Of course, there's inherent bias...

Your own David Bowie once touched on the subject when he said that the reason British musicians don't flame out like the major American figures is because there is a sense of Americans wanting to "keep it real" because the music sprang from American culture. He said that British artists did not have an equivalent grounding and that British popular music has its roots in the music hall. It's just entertainment.

I didn't identify Marc Bolan as a cult figure. I know that at one time, he had immense success in the UK. I said that at the time of his death he was a washed up pop star


I guess I left out Moon because I just dont really care for the Who and try to avoid thinking about them. And that's not a cultural bias...just an aesthetic one.

[LynneSin]

19. John Bonham? Keith Moon?

:grr:

[mitchum]

21. One was an animal and the other was insane...

and I'm barely exaggerating in either case :)
That being said, Bonham is one of the greatest drummers I have ever heard.
I don't care so much for Moon's playing. Way too busy. Elvin Jones could pull off a somewhat similar approach beaus he was a genius.

[LynneSin]

22. Oh, and Elvis Presley was an altar boy then

:eyes:

[mitchum]

24. No, he was a mama's boy

and that's just one of the many reasons that very bad man Chuck Berry is the true King Of Rock And Roll :)

I don't really care for much of Presley's work past the Sun Sessions, but it would be disingenuous to deny Presley's profound influence.

[tigereye]

35. hmm, I think Moon's drumming was busy

but that was part of it's charm. His antics not-withstanding. Not totally fair to compare him with Elvin Jones.

Art Blakey could be a bit busy at times, too.

[mitchum]

39. Of course, it's not fair to compare any drummer to Elvin Jones

:) but I just think that every cymbal happy drummer with the exceptions of Elvin Jones and Mitch Mitchell should be shot. Unfortunately, I've never been able to exercise that option, so I've just fired them.

[tigereye]

45. depends on what you use em for

prior to there being toms, the cymbals (well, even before the hi-hat, I think) were pretty damn important, particularly in jazz. And still are. That's how a lot of drummers keep time. (hope I'm not totally stating the obvious since I don't know your background.)

Or are you talking about the guys who have 20 cymbals and that's all they do? ;)

Probably the most amazing drummer I ever saw ( and I haven't seen Jones or Art Blakey, alas)
was Ronald Shannon Jackson. I was a self-taught drummer for years, but I have never seen that kind of bass drum pedal skill since. And there were no double bass pedals! :)

Since I have been taking drum lessons for a few years now, I can really appreciate his skill level.

[mitchum]

50. No, I'm talking about the rock guys who have twenty cymbals...

those are the ones who are made for target practice :)
It's always been my observation (and unfortunate experience) that those drummers are the ones who use them as an ill-conceived crutch. I always imagine them saying to themselves, "Hey, let me just hit all of these cymbals alot and no one will ever notice my sloppy time!" Unfortunately, we always notice.

I agree with you about Jackson. He is phenomenal.

[Vidar]

23. Freddie Mercury.

[mitchum]

25. Judy Garland with (more) facial hair

[LynneSin]

27. DON'T EVEN GO THERE

Freddie Mercury was an amazing talent with more charisma and talent in a hangnail on his finger than you could ever imagine having in a lifetime.

:grr:

[mitchum]

28. Did I say that I didn't enjoy Freddie Mercury?

I find much of Queen's work to be highly entertaining. Even the most ridiculous over-the-top aspects of their work to succeed largely due to Mercury's immense talent and panache.

But...has Freddie Mercury (and Queen) had a profound influence on popular music? That is not the same thing as a continuing presence on classic rock stations.

[MadHound]

26. I think you've forgotten a couple more

George Harrison, John Entwistle:shrug: Both were quite influential.

[mitchum]

29. I left out Harrison (my favorite Beatle) because he was how old...

when he died?
The mythology of "tragic significant figure" is dependent in large part on the figure dying in their prime thus presumably robbing the world of future works of genius. Harrison was certainly influential. As I often say to people when we're flabbergasted about his being underrated..."My God! He was the lead guitarplayer in the freakin' Beatles!"

[KamaAina]

31. Paul McCartney

Paul is dead... Paul is dead... Paul is dead... :tinfoilhat: :evilgrin:

[mitchum]

40. LOL!

well done :)