Anybody know anything about heraldry?

[Jara sang]

What is a Grant of Badge? A Grant of Supporters? Anybody?

http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/scalefees.pdf

[Lisa]

1. it's been a while since I was involved with this kind of thing ....

But here goes. In order to "officially" use a coat of arms, you have to get the paperwork past an arms-granting body, like a royal college of arms or something like that. They check to make sure that it isn't a copy of someone else's, or that nobody else has something similar which could create confusion. Then they formally give you permission to use it. Each country has its own system -- in this case, I'm assuming it's the Irish arms-granting authority, since that's the suffix on the URL.

I'm just saying this off the top of my head (haven't got my reference books here), and no doubt someone more in the know will straighten me out if I'm mistaken. You don't have to get the whole shebang -- the shield with stuff on it, the figures flanking the shield (the supporters), the thingy on top of the helmet (the crest), the mantling (cloth in particular colors dangling from the crest), etc. The document you showed seems to be a price list for these different components. I guess you can get a set of supporters if your arms didn't include them, or just a badge (distinctive symbol, often the same one featured as the crest which tops the helmet if you already have a coat of arms). By "emblazon", I think they mean getting a proper description in heraldic language. It sometimes means an artistic drawing of the coat of arms, but that seems to be included as a different item, towards the end of the price list.


In Britain, one famous historical badge is the white hart of Richard II (people who approved of him -- a different kind of "supporter"! -- wore it as a brooch or something). It was a type of personal insignia, not the same thing as the royal crown.

http://www.library.phila.gov/medieval/badge.htm


Why register a badge as opposed to a full coat of arms? The Society for Creative Anachronism (one of the few groups that uses heraldry on a regular basis) has some people who follow the official rules pretty carefully, and they say that badges are particularly useful if you want to have a bunch of people wearing that symbol, not just one official grantee -- an organization or a household (though in the real world, people tend not to have a lot of servants, let alone ones wearing something that has a feudal connotation like a personal badge). Here's their explanation:

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/lessons/lesson13.html




Badges are particularly famous in Scotland, where entire clans would use one symbol, like this. They couldn't use the entire coat of arms (that belonged to the chief), but the crest from the coat of arms, encircled by a garter, was okay for ordinary clanspeople. Sometimes they would put a sprig of a particular kind of plant (different for each clan) in their caps, if they couldn't afford an official badge.





http://www.tartanweb.com/view/cap_badges/scottish_clan_hat_badge_pewter.html


Here's an example of a (mostly) full coat of arms -- for the province of Newfoundland, in Canada. It's got the shield, the supporters (in this case two aboriginals in native garb), a motto, and a torse (colored heraldic wreath) that would go on top of the helmet, with an elk as the crest. (The locals say it should really be a moose or a caribou.)



Original document with grant of arms (1638), by the Garter King of Arms (one of the British officials allowed to grant arms).
http://www.durham.net/~kburt/NFCoatOfArmsExplanation.html



Armorial bearings for the town of Penhold, Alberta.





More about the granting process -- in Canada, anyway (your mileage may vary!).

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pg/index_e.asp

[Jara sang]

2. Hey, thanks for the info.

That answered my question. Are their people that you can hire to help you with this? Thanks again for all the info!

[Lisa]

3. if you're applying for arms or a badge ....

... some of the arms-granting groups have people who can help walk you through the process. (Make sure it's an official organization, not the fly-by-night type that try to sell everybody the same symbol!) Plus the person should know about your national heraldic tradition and the types of rules which apply ... you can do things in Scotland which probably wouldn't be apt in Poland, in terms of the choice of devices, even though the general heraldic rules about which colors can or can't be juxtaposed may be similar.



This SCA explanation gives a (rather funny) example of what it's like to get an application through the system. Not being a centuries-old organization, their system is probably much simpler and more streamlined than for one of the real places ... many years ago, I did some volunteer work for the Heraldry Society of Canada. It took months to get some of the badges cleared (in terms of checking for similar symbols, and making sure that the ones submitted weren't too bizarre or inadvertently rude). In one case, something made it as far as the drawing board before we had to abandon it because it was based on an incorrect translation from the French ("rudder" not "paddle").

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/heraldic_devices.html

"The organization in the SCA that registers heraldic devices is the College of Heralds, represented in each barony or shire by the local herald. The procedure works thus: you go to your local herald with a design, for example a pink biplane on a blue background. He explains that (1) pink is not a heraldic tincture, and (2) biplanes are not really suitable on a device to be used in a medieval organization. So you redesign with the herald's help and come up with something which as far as he knows satisfies the rules of heraldry and is not too similar to existing devices. You then fill out quite a lot of forms, and your herald sends them off to his superior at the kingdom level. Three months later she sends you a letter explaining that the device you submitted is almost the same as the arms of the Whosit family of Scotland. You redesign so that your proposed device is sufficiently different from the Whosit arms and send it off again. If the kingdom herald approves your device it is sent on to the chief herald for the Society; if he approves it, it is registered as yours. From then on, no one else in the SCA may use it, and no one may register something very similar to it without your express permission."


http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/heraldic_devices.html

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. Most of the recognised heraldic organisations...

like the Lyon Court of Scotland, the College of Arms of England, the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland, etc. have heralds on their staff who will assist you in selecting suitable charges, tinctures, crest, etc. It's expensive (about $5000 US). The College of Arms of England will grant arms to Americans who can show descent from a person resident in British North America prior to the 1783 Treaty of Paris; not sure what the requirements are for Scotland and Ireland.

http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/ll_homeTemplate.jsp;jsessionid=CC8D4289160F65C505A663CF9C979649?p_applic=CCC&p_service=Content.show&pContentID=220&

http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/

If you design your own arms, you can also register them with a couple of American organisations--

The Committee on Heraldry of the New England Historical Genealogic Society: http://makepeace.ca/nehgs/

The American College of Heraldry: http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/

The US Heraldic Registry: http://www.usheraldicregistry.com/

[Lisa]

7. plus it will take some time ...

Often the people working at these organizations are paid a token honorary salary and have quite a backlog of stuff to get through -- some may even be volunteers -- and so they aren't able to work round-the-clock on just heraldic business. Be suspicious of any organization that promises to deliver a coat of arms in the same timeframe as a pizza, or custom windowblinds!


I like how this one granting agency puts it ...

"It is important to remember that grants of armorial bearings are made by the Crown to be valid forever. As a result, a sufficient amount of time is required to complete each grant."

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pg/index_e.asp

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. A grant of arms...

in Ireland and Scotland, I think, includes a badge (like a clan badge) which all clan members are entitled to; this usually consists of the crest and motto. The arms themselves are unique and may only be used by other members of the clan or family after approval and differencing (addition of cadency marks, changes in tincture, etc).

And supporters are reserved (in British heraldry) for the arms of royalty, nobility, and government (this includes Scots clan chiefs); most individuals aren't entitled to them.

[Lisa]

5. thanks -- I had forgotten about that

There are certain components of armorial bearings which you'd need an official go-ahead to use. In the case of Canada's Governor General, she's an everyday person but her job (representing the Queen) gives her the right (even obligation) to have a coat of arms, including supporters. Having been awarded an honor can mean that someone applying for arms can have things that those of us who just walked in off the street would not be able to choose. (The official helping with your application should be familiar with this type of protocol, and be able to advise accordingly, such as whether you're eligible to show a particular style of helmet on top of the shield due to having noble ancestry, or whether it would be advisable to use cadency marks, or whether the visual pun you're hoping to display might be misconstrued.)

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/emb/03/index_e.asp



p.s. for Jara sang -- cadency marks (used to differentiate family members so they aren't all using exactly the same coat of arms).

http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/cadency.html

[Jara sang]

8. Is there somewhere I can read a breakdown of each component?

Of the coat of arms, like the significance and history behind the "supporters", "crest" etc.?

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Wikipedia's entry on heraldry is a decent primer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry

[Lisa]

13. one of the standard sources is the Fox-Davies guide to heraldry

Arthur Charles Fox-Davies wrote a couple of books, many decades ago -- the illustrations may be a bit clunky by today's standards (the heraldry people I worked with used to joke about them, compared with the more fluid and dynamic drawings by modern artists). But he made a big deal about writing detailed explanations of all kinds of terminology used, and at least he has plentiful illustrations (unlike some other heraldry books which just show blurred Renaissance engravings or even worse, muddy color repros). There are actually a few of his books which may turn up in your public library -- "The Art of Heraldry", which is meant for specialists -- "The Complete Guide to Heraldry", written in a more popular style -- and the even shorter "Heraldry Explained" for beginners. My folks got me "The Complete Guide" when I got interested in heraldry during high school, and I still have it.

[sarge43]

15. The Fox-Davies is a good source, but it's somewhat out of date.

An excellent starter book is The Complete Book of Heraldry: An international history of heraldry and its contemporary uses by Stephen Slater. Not a lot of detail, but a good overview.

[Lisa]

19. thanks for the recommendation!

I had found a couple of more recent books, but they were so vague (although the colour illustrations were much nicer) that I decided to hang onto the older Fox-Davies so I would be able to look up some of the more obscure terminology. I was trying to learn to blazon at the time, and I didn't know if I'd be able to find a book with that much detail which also covered late 20th-c developments. But if you say it's a good recent one (I see it came out in 2002) I'll definitely check it out!.

[sarge43]

20. More than welcome

You'll love the illustrations, all in color and beautifully done.

For a more technical book, check out A New Dictionary of Heraldry by Stephen Friar. It's out of print, but readily available through used book sites. It's how I latched onto my second copy, having worn out the first. Its primer on blazon is pretty good. It won't help with the Amish crazy quilt arms, but it's a handy reference.

[Lisa]

22. I'm going to see if I can get this one for my public library system

They haven't got it in the collection, and if it's as good as you say (more technical than Slater's, and more relevant to current times than Fox-Davies), I think it would be a valuable addition. I'm friends with one of the librarians, who also likes history, and with her help, I've been directing my donations to beef up their Roman/medieval section.

[sarge43]

23. Heraldry being an evolving system, I don't think there's any one

book that has the final or definitive say - just have to try to keep current and add to the collection. For example, the Friar book is now out of date on Canadian heraldry. According to Slater, in 1988 HM gave the Gov Gen to right to grant arms and Canada has established a splendid (IMHO) system. For one thing, women's arms aren't differentiated from men's; they can have crests, cadency marks, all the bells and whistles. It also makes wonderful use of modern and native items for the charges. The British Columbia Institute of Technology arms has computer symbols. One coat of arms uses a Shaman's headdress for the crest, another a parka hood - imaginative stuff.

[Lisa]

24. Exactly ...

Good point. As in a lot of other areas, there are things which just haven't made it into books yet. I think the central collection downtown subscribes to "Heraldry in Canada" (the Royal Heraldry Society of Canada's journal), and that should give recent updates.

But still -- aside from Slater, there is a big gap with hardly anything between Fox-Davies, and the special Canadian heraldic primer issued by the society, which covers events since 1988. (Looking at their website, I notice it was written by one of the people I used to do work for. I guess he finally managed to find more time for this -- I heard he'd retired from his ordinary job a while back.) It would be nice to fill in that gap a bit, with some good stuff.

I hadn't seen the BCIT coat of arms yet -- someone must have had some fun designing that one! I'm glad the "computer chip" is on the abstract side, though (I think Fox-Davies pointed out that technological items proposed as charges during the Victorian era look strange, are hard to draw, and quickly become outdated because nobody knows what they are). So there is something to be said, for not going for photorealism.

http://www.bcit.ca/files/pdf/styleguide/bcitstyleguide.pdf


It's not just the aboriginal imagery which is gaining wider acceptance in Canadian heraldry -- we've had Governors-General for the past couple of decades who are from a range of cultural backgrounds, so it's been cool to see the range of symbols used for each new coat of arms -- Ukrainian, Danish, Chinese, and now Haitian.

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/emb/03/index_e.asp


I loved the Canadian Heraldic Authority's supporters -- I was hoping they would make up an exotic name for them (nanuravens?) but I see the blazon just called them "raven-bears". (For Jara sang, if you're still hanging in there reading through all this ... the "blazon" is the official description in specialized heraldic terminology. In theory anyone trained in heraldry should be able to re-create what the coat of arms looks like, without having to refer to a drawing. It's like learning a new language ... that's what I was struggling with when I was trying to teach myself how to write and decode blazons. The Royal Heraldry Society of Canada has a training programme now -- when I was learning, things were rather rudimentary -- for one thing, they weren't online.)



http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/cha/02/cha-arm_e.asp

[sarge43]

25. Well, there's a big gap in the literature across the board

after Fox-Davis until Rodney Dennys' books came out. His writings seems to have sparked renewed interest. Plus, it helped that people again became fascinated with the middle ages in general and you can't study that time without knowing something about heraldry - the short hand of history and all that.

Yes, Slater remarks about the increase use of ethnic symbols in Canadian and other nation's heraldry, such as a Maccabean warrior's helmet for a synagogue's crest. If heraldry is going to survive, it has to adapt.

The BCIT chip charges are quite abstract. I think a medieval herald would approve "Ah yes, a pallet embattled azure". That's blazon, Jara sang. It's Norman French of 11th/12th century - the adjectives follow the nouns. A pale is a vertical bar across the shield. A pallet is a little pale or a small bar. Embattled means the outline looks like a castle wall and azure, of course, is blue.

I don't know how you'd blazon those critters; they are charming though. A new name may be necessary, like gryphon.

[sarge43]

9. For the badge, the grantee has to have a 'following'

ie a staff, a business, a large estate, etc who are personally employed or supported by him. The badge is what they display or wear. Best example is the Tudor Rose worn by the Beefeaters; it's one of the badges of British monarch. You see this done wrong in films/tv all the time - soldiers wearing the coat of arms of their lord or the monarch.

Supporters are the animals, people or figures at the sides of a coat of arms. In British heraldry, only peers, large corporations and institutions, towns and cities are granted supporters. There are exceptions to indicate an unique circumstance - Princess Anne's first husband, although a commoner, was granted supporters for his arms.

Other heraldic systems may have different conventions.

[elehhhhna]

10. We have a famly crest from Holland--

a rearing hare in a shield shaped thing which says "anno. 1717" plus some Olde timey-dutch words that even the old-timey Hollander branch of the family can't read.

Any ideas what this means, where to find out, etc?

[sarge43]

12. Off the top of my head -

something significant happened to either the family or in Holland in the year 1717. A check of Dutch history during that period could turn up something. I have no guess about the hare; it's a very rare charge and, as far as I know, has no heraldic symbolism attached to it.

[Lisa]

14. you might try contacting the Dutch consulate in your area?

They might be able to put you in touch with an official arms-granting organization in the Netherlands. That group would likely have records which could be helpful. The Netherlands is still a (constitutional) monarchy so I'm assuming that there would be some government connection. Also, this site gives a possible address for the "Centraal Bureau voor Genealogie" in The Hague.

http://www.araltas.com/services/register.html


Re: heraldic symbolism, I seem to recall that Fox-Davies had a section all about different heraldic animals in one of his larger books. He did mention some European heraldic devices, so there might be something in there.

I don't know about Dutch cultural traditions (I did work in Holland one summer but my hosts were more into flowers than animals!) -- though I've heard that in medieval lore, the hare stood for vigilance and piety. It runs so quickly that it was a symbol for avoiding persecution (and sinful temptations) -- and is supposedly so alert that it sleeps with its eyes open. (Actually hares are born able to see and can move around on their own shortly afterwards, unlike rabbits, so this might be a source of the legend?)

Maybe one of your ancestors was both pious and swift-footed, so the hare symbol is kind of a nickname for him?

p.s. 1717 doesn't ring any bells for me, except for the really big flood that happened in Holland around Christmastime. My hosts mentioned it (some of the damage is apparently still visible in the place where I stayed). Maybe there are some more clues in the archaic text? A Dutch cultural organization (or European history department) might be able to help you decipher it.

http://www.deltawerken.com/Christmas-flood-(1717)/305.html

[elehhhhna]

16. Thank you both. All I've found so far is that a rearing hare generally re

fers to having given good service to the Royals and is often given at retirement...but not sure that info's good, anyway.

[sarge43]

17. There is a Royal Society for Genealogy and Heraldry

The Netherlands has no College of Heralds per se.

Thanks for the info on the symbolism for rabbits. The only thing in the Fox-Davies was a picture of a hare salient and mention of a couple of uses in British arms.

[Lisa]

18. thanks for checking Fox-Davies ...

I don't have the book with me so I wasn't able to look it up right away. I guess the type of reference which would give more cultural insights would be something like a medieval bestiary?

The ancients were observant enough about the natural world to point out differences between rabbits ("coneys") and hares, which we tend to gloss over these days, where most of us tend not to have close day-to-day contact with plants and wildlife -- a zoologist friend mentioned to me that maybe some of those old superstitions (like the pious pelican and the baby-bearing stork, or the "vigilant hare" vs. the timid rabbit) might have arisen as a way to differentiate between two similar-looking species, and might not have been taken seriously anyway, by folks who were in the know.

I thought elehhhhna's discovery about the hare perhaps being awarded as a symbol for honorable royal service (in Holland anyway) was quite informative! That sounds like a great potential lead. (I'm sure the Dutch royal household kept records of this kind of thing ...)

I looked online and didn't see a listing for a Dutch/Netherlands College of Heralds, which given your observation, makes sense. But I did come across a few references to something called the Hoge Raad van Adel (Dutch College of Arms, perhaps?). Their HQ is in The Hague. Unfortunately, my Dutch has deteriorated to the point where I can't read the webpage info section.

http://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/

[sarge43]

21. Re the Hoge Raad van Adel

According to the Netherland's entry in Friar's book, there is the Supreme Court of the Nobility "which has responsibility to the Queen on matters of title, flags, public arms, badges and emblems for the armed services and other related matters." I didn't mention it for that reason, but maybe that's it(?).

You're right; a bestiary could be helpful. T. H. White's is suppose to be the best modern one.