Mel and his latest movie venture? A movie on the Mayan civilization?

[The Backlash Cometh]

What information does everybody have on this one? I'm just tinfoiling like crazy and willing to bet the sebaceous cyst on my left cheek that Mel Gibson is wanting to exploit the fact that the Mayan's calendar ends in the year 2012. It would certainly suit anyone who believed in an Apocalyptic, biblical ending. Mel, if you recall, turned out to be quite the religious fanatic with his Jesus movie, and ended it with Jesus having a Mad Max, "I'm coming to get you" look. So, I'm wondering, with his purchase of an island retreat, is Mel bouncing off some evangelical-style, end-timer beliefs?

[babylonsister]

1. IT's called "Apocalypto", 'Nuff said, but here's a link:

http://www.aztlan.net/apocalypto.htm

but this one is better:

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/movies/articles/0718apocalypto0718.html

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Wow! I'm so good, maybe I should start my own profiler business.

[slaveplanet]

22. from the AZcentral piece

But according to the film's website, "Apocalypto" promises "a heart-stopping mythic action-adventure set against the turbulent end-times of the once-great Mayan civilization." The story centers on a kidnapped hero's bid to escape a mass sacrifice at one Maya center. According to another description of the plot in Time magazine's March preview, a ruler orders the mass sacrifice of hapless captives to appease the gods and avert a drought.

The only problem, and big cause for worry among archaeologists, is "the classic Maya really didn't go in for mass sacrifice," Lucero says. "That was the Aztecs."


According to this excellent PBS documentary, The Mayans did Mass sacrifices as well(and wrote about it in stone), but Lucero is right about the scale, The Aztecs really let the blood flow, the documentary talks about an instance of 40,000 sacrifices over a two day period.


http://www.pbs.org/howartmadetheworld/episodes/death/

[KittyWampus]

40,000 over two days in Ancient Maya... 2500 over several years in Iraq.

See! The Iraq War is a bargain in terms of human life.

Although I forgot to factor in civilian Iraqis...

Nevermind.

[sgxnk]

2. does

mel believe in the rapture, or other apocalyptic stuff?

i've never seen any evidence that he does. not disputing he does, but i have never seen any evidence he does. you are, at a minimum, inferring he does

mel is catholic. he is not an evangelical, and i have read many interviews with him. i have never seen him mention any sort of apocalyptic type of stuff wahtosever

is this an assumption on your part, or do you have a basis for this belief?

tia

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Catholics don't believe in the Apocalypse?

[sgxnk]

5. well among other things

just because catholic doctrine says X does not mean mel believes X

i am not talking about what catholics (who have rather diverse views) believe, per se.

i am talking about gibson

gibson has openly disagreed with the catholic church on many things

many aspects of vatican 2, for instance

i again, repeat my question

do you have EVIDENCE that mel has some sort of apolcalyptic vision and/or rapture belief or are you ASSUMING that?

i have read MANY interviews with gibson. i have NEVER heard him mention it

so, i am not assuming that you are assuming, so to speak, but i am asking for clarification or evidence.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Well, if you had MANY interviews with Mel, why didn't you think to ask

the question?

I think the question is very valid. A) I think the Evangelicals have a very powerful hold on politics these days; B) I think their beliefs are bleeding into political decisions; C) It's obvious that the White House has been controlling the media in the last six years, since there is evidence that they have called newspapers to stop articles and paid pundits to express their opinions; D) I think it's appropriate to ask how much "brain-washing" has taken affect due to A, B & C. Mel may not be an Evangelical, but his movie choices suggest that he may have been affected by the religious, political-social newsblasting of the last six years. But there are signs that people are catching their breath. Even the Wall Street Journal is leery of the end-timer, Evangelicals and their power on the White House, and they're beginning to take names:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1760793&mesg_id=1760793

[On the Road]

8. Traditionally, Catholics Have Followed St Augustine

The Catholic view of universal eschatology was formulated in all essentials in the fifth century by St. Augustine, bishop of the North African city of Hippo. Few dogmatic constructs have proven to be so durable and so practical as the Augustinian model of history. Augustine was skeptical about the possibility of associating particular biblical prophecies uniquely with particular historical events. In his day, the final decades of the Roman Empire, the western world was in fact doing a good imitation of ending. He was shocked by the first Gothic sack of Rome in 410, and himself would eventually die in the siege of his city by the Vandals. Despite this, however, he declined to see the catastrophes of his time as the literal end of the world. Rather, he showed how apocalyptic could be applied metaphorically to a range of historical situations.

The most interesting of his doctrines for our purposes is his theory that the whole age of the Church should be associated with the Millennium of the Book of Revelation. His view of the matter, as set out in Book XX of "The City of God," is reflected in the Catechism:
http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/catmil.htm

However, as dispensationism has gained more converts, a lot of Catholics have changed their views, sometimes not even realizing that they're bucking centuries of tradition.

[sgxnk]

10. great post

i learned something

my brain is now totally full. :)

[TahitiNut]

39. Mr. Osborne says you're excused.

:rofl:

[TankLV]

14. The last chapters of the bible, yes. The "rapture" - NO!

The "rapture" is a complete bullshit fantasy invention, created by some idiot wacko fundy "minister" from some "religious" cult in the late 1800's.

The american cults eventually bought it hook, line and sinker shortly after.

In fact, I believe the Catholic church has issued statements on this blasphemy of biblical "thought".

[Recursion]

6. apocalypse yes, rapture no

Rapture is a belief common only among a subsect of (specifically American) Protestants known as dispensationalists. Most Christians other than the very rare preterists believe that the stories in Daniel and John are predictions of an event that will happen at some unknown time in the future when the heavens and earth will be judged and remade, and the Forces of Evil (tm) will be defeated. Certain American Protestants, however, also believe that before this climactic battle between good and evil (which is itself possibly to be preceded by a 1000-year reign of peace under the Son of Perdition, who is often called "the Antichrist" despite the fact that that word does not appear in Revelation), all True Believers (tm) will be carried bodily "up" into heaven.

This view is largely discredited by serious biblical scholars, and it was brought up as an example by the Catholic church before the 2nd Vatican Council as to why the laity should not be given access to the scriptures ("look at the sort of stuff the laity comes up with!" -- it reminds me of the bishop at the Diet of Worms* who said basically "we can't give the people scripture! they might read it and take it literally!")

*On a side note, "the Diet of Worms" has to be the coolest name for a religious conference ever.

[sgxnk]

7. excellent

thanks for the post

also, again, we are talking catholics qua catholics here

i am not thus convinced that mel necessarily believes in the apocalypse

because i have seen no evidence of HIM stating that

he may, but i have seen no evidence

he has disagreed with catholic doctrine before, so i do not ASSUME he agrees on this point

he MAY, but until i see evidence, i don't assum,e

he may believe the apolcalyptic stuff is allegorical, for instance

or an LSD inspired hallucination

who knows?

[Recursion]

33. He's a pre-Vatican II Catholic

And perhaps a sedavacantist. He wants more power to the Bishops and Cardinals and less to the individual holder of the office of Pope. Oddly enough this position is seen as a defense of traditional Catholic doctrine, since the "body of the faithful" was held for a long time to have the ultimate "say" on church matters.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Only AMerican Protestants believe in the Rapture?

If so, the last six years will certainly label this country as the home of religious nutcases as bad as the Muslim radicals.

[Recursion]

30. Certainly, American missionaries have exported the doctrine

I did not mean to imply that all believers in rapture are geographically within the United States; just that the doctrine itself is from the United States and I would wager most of its adherents are here, though I have no data on the actual numbers.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. I hope they're not using common interests in economic ideas as

a Trojan Horse when they re-introduce this version of religious belief back into the Old World.

[Tace]

9. Tell You What -- This Is A Fantastic Plot For A Film

I'm not a Mel fan, but he knows what he's doing.

[Strelnikov_]

13. I Agree. Diamonds 'Collapse' Brought To The Big Screen n/t

[Recursion]

35. Oh, dang

Wish I'd seen this post when I plugged Collapse further down the page.

If anybody hasn't read that book, they should. Probably the best environmental book I've read.

[Strelnikov_]

41. Collapse Turned Me Into A Cornu-Doomer

After coming to the conclusion that peak oil (more like peak energy) *and rapid climate change* is a real and looming threat, I still felt that there were enough options that with societal transformation we could emerge with a less energy intensive and sustainable industrial society.

Then I read 'Collapse' I recognized that human nature will work against any orderly transformation.

And without an orderly transformation, I am afraid the partial collapse of industrial civilization, due to energy starvation, will place high-tech energy sources requiring complex economic integration out of our reach.

Without competent leadership, all the brilliance of our Engineers and Scientists will be of little help.


Not that I am giving up the fight. As long as the major impediment is political, there is still hope, but preparing for the worst also seems prudent.

Oh, and nearly every time I have plugged 'Collapse' on this board, the standard refrain is that 'technology will prevent future collapses', 'those were primitive civilizations' and 'resource depletion is a corporate plot to run up profits'.

So be it. If everyone starts building lifeboats, it will simply be more expensive for me to build mine. Not that I am unwilling to help those that ask, but I am done trying to convince. People need to do their own due diligence.

[Strelnikov_]

15. The Movie Concerns Resource Depletion, Collapse, And Civilizations

tendency to extreme, counterproductive actions in response.


Consider the initial stages of the 'Last Man Standing' resource war in the Middle East. A war being initiated by 'oil men', for a region containing most of the earths remaining petroleum and natural gas reserves, by men who know no other paradigm but petro-wealth and petro-power.


Consider the following passage from 'Collapse' by Jared Diamond.

As our fifth strand, we have to wonder why the kings and nobles failed to recognize and solve these seemingly obvious problems undermining their society. Their attention was evidently focused on their short-term concerns of enriching themselves, waging wars, erecting monuments, competing with each other, and extracting enough food from the human peasants to support all those activities. Like most leaders throughout human history, the Maya kings and nobles did not heed long-term problems, insofar as they perceived them.

. . .

Like Easter Island chiefs erecting ever larger statues, eventually crowned by pukao, and like Anasazi elites treating themselves to necklaces of 2000 turquoise beads, Maya kings sought to outdo each other with more and more impressive temples, covered with thicker and thicker plaster, reminiscent in turn of the extravagant conspicuous consumption by modern American CEO's. The passivity of Easter chiefs and Maya kings in the face of the real big threats to their societies completes our list of disquieting parallels.

From Chapt. 5, 'The Maya Collapses', from 'Collapse: How Societies Choose To Fail Or Succeed’ by Jared Diamond


Consider the following essay when thinking about what Gibson's 'message' regarding this movie may be.

Satan In The Drivers Seat
http://www.energybulletin.net/14744.html

Inevitably, Peak Oil means we are headed for some very tough times. History shows us that when societies are stressed, religion is easily perverted and used as a means to control people or advance evil agendas. On the other hand, we can find real answers to our energy dilemma in the teachings of Christ. We will all have serious moral and spiritual choices to make soon. This is especially true for the wealthy, powerful and privileged among us.

I’m not a Biblical scholar but it makes perfect sense to me that a “way of life” that contradicts most of what Jesus stood for is not something that will stand the test of time. God (i.e. nature) simply will not allow us to run an economic system and culture that requires us to live collectively like locusts much longer. Our wakeup call is coming. Peak Oil and Climate Change will force us to spiritually evolve or suffer the inexorable laws of nature until we “get it.” The longer we fight this reality, the greater the cost in human tragedy. We are indeed in a war but the enemy is inside each and every one of us. If we are God’s children and the earth is God’s school, our fossil fuels dilemma is the final exam.

. . .

The popularity of Mel Gibson’s Passion has made him a cult hero among Evangelical Christians. Gibson’s next movie to be released the summer of 2006 is Apocalypto, about the collapse of the Mayan Civilization. Here are the quotes from the trailer:

“A great civilization is not conquered from without”

“Until it has destroyed itself from within”

“When the end comes”

“Not everyone is ready to go”

Perhaps this is another timely spiritual message from Mel, especially for all the rapture-ready Christians in America: An up close and personal view of what a collapse of a civilization looks like.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. Too many people following the same path to success, too many

believing that the world owes them a lifestyle.

Yep, I see the parallel.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Well, he sure is drinking like there's no tomorrow. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. LOL!

Actually, I hear his blood-alcohol level was barely over the illegal limit. Which causes alarm at his lack of self-control.

[Swamp Rat]

18. He should do an autobiographical movie about his alcoholism, hatred of

women, and his descent into insanity. That's one movie by him I would watch. :D

[WilliamPitt]

20. Jesus having a Mad Max, "I'm coming to get you" look.

Sorry.

I'm giggling like a titmouse right now.

:)

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. If it had been Arnold instead of Mel, Jesus's last words would have been:

"I'll be baaaaaack."

[WilliamPitt]

26. Stop it

:rofl:

[Marr]

21. I'm really looking forward to this movie- and honestly, I think you're

being too harsh on Mel Gibson. The guy is very talented, and he doesn't shy away from making unusual movies. I disagree with him on alot of issues, but I love his work.

[Yupster]

23. I'm just finishing up the book 1491

which supposedly has the latest information on how the Indians were living at the time of Colombus.

Super interesting. A chapter on the Maya. The book questions how much drought was responsible for their decline as the wetter cities apparently fell apart while some of the dryer ones prospered. It also talks about how the dryer area traded much more and could have survived that way.

Also talks about how their water supply was always on the edge as the local water supply was swampy and salt-ridden. The Maya created their own reservoirs but it took much work to create and maintain. During wars it was very easy to sabotage your enemy's water supply. There was a 100 years war between two large cities which took in much of the Maya world sort of like Athens versus Sparta and that war may have been the people's undoing.

Very good read if anyone likes history stuff.

[Recursion]

34. Have you read "Collapse"?

It's by Diamond, the guy who wrote Guns, Germs and Steel. It has a section on the Maya and how they ignored the damage their lifestyle was inflicting on the environment until it was too late and their society collapsed, right before the Spanish invaded (certainly the diseases and Spaniards accelerated the fall, but he has some very compelling data on the parts of the collapse that happened before the 1500's).

[Yupster]

43. No - I will read it though - thanks

I think 1491 is kind of a reevaluation of the theories about the Indians.

For instance, 1491 places the Maya collapse pretty much complete by the year 909, well before Columbus. That was the last time a date was inscribed by a certain Maya calendar that was computated by the priesthood. The book's theory is that by 909 there was no longer a priestly class capable of doing the figures anymore.

The book places the main collapse between 800 and 830 when almost all the Maya cities "winked out." Mutal's last carved inscription was in 1869. After that there's just evidence of squatters.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Oh, poor multi-millionaire Mel Gibson. The man can reach millions

of people across the world with his money to express his viewpoints and ruin my day, but he needs to be protected from me, a little powerless gadfly on the net?

I think Mel has reached a point of influence where we all deserve to know what he really believes in. The more I get to know about his personal life, the less I believe it matches up with his public image.

[Strelnikov_]

27. Yep. Tom Cruise Is Nuts, But It Doesn't Mean I Can't Enjoy His Movies

(when he is properly cast, like in Collateral and Minority Report, that is)

http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com/

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Well Said And I Agree Completely.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Whatever It Is, I'm Sure It Will Be A Great Movie From Him As Always.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Followed by, "The Drunken Passion of Mel Gibson"?

Complete with vats of blood and flying flesh to depict the goodness of Mel.

[Posteritatis]

36. Myself, I'm actually kinda looking forward to this one.

I couldn't be bothered to see The Passion - I don't go for carnography, and the specific topic just isn't as much an interest of mine compared to what came after - though I think it's cool to see more historical movies out there which at least make the attempt to stitchcount and portray the past better than the sanitized stuff we usually get.

(Full disclosure: I'm one of those whackjobs who loved Alexander, if just because I could tell which primary and secondary sources were used producing it. Yay for obvious research!)

The Mayans are one of those cultures I know next to nothing about, but I also have had the urge to address and fix that lately. I'll probably at least glance at this when it comes out, if just as a springboard into taking a closer look at the area/culture/time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. I think the Mayan culture deserves a more accurate story-teller.

From what I read, Mel is making too many historical mistakes to convince the real authorities on Mayan culture, so it's distressing to me that you think you're going to learn something from this movie. Sounds like it's going to be as Hollywood as "Top of the Morning." Just what we need. More American misinformation.

[Posteritatis]

40. I didn't say I would specifically learn something

I said it would be likely to pique my interest. Something doesn't have to be primary-source accurate to pull that off, not if your mind's broad enough.

I'm an historian by profession; I'm well aware of the problems with historical movies.

I'm also aware of their uses and benefits.

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. Fine, so you're educated enough to avoid the pitfalls, and may

even find the anachronisms and other mistakes amusing, but that still doesn't alleviate my concerns for the rest of Americans.

[brook]

42. Don't worry.

I'm certain the movie will contain every bit as much accuracy as the multitude of threads about him here. Much can be learned.

[Beelzebud]

38. I think the name refers to the Conquistadors does it not?

It would be funny if he used this movie to expose the church's hypocrisy.

[Strelnikov_]

44. Wonder If He Will Include A Scene Where The Missionary Priests Destroy

nearly the entire written record the Mayans had maintained of their civilization?

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. Was this documented some where?

[Disturbed]

47. No doubt it will be bloody as most of his films are.

He seems to thrive on mega violence.

[Strelnikov_]

48. Read About This In 'Collapse' By Diamond

snip from the following 'source':

http://www.isourcecom.com/maya/themaya/whowere.htm

The Spanish Bishop Friar Diego de Landa, tried, but could not eliminate their language, traditional dress or religious ceremonies some of which are still practiced in the Yucatan to this day. In a three month spree in 1562 the Bishop led a crusade of killing, maiming and torture trying to force the Maya into abandonding their traditional ways and recognizing Christ as their god. He went as far as to single handedly destroy almost all the written history and religious codices of the Maya. The irony being that the observations he recorded of these people before he destroyed their works allowed us to learn more about their culture from Bishop de Landa than we otherwise would have.

[The Backlash Cometh]

50. Well, then, let's thank Mel for opening the discourse, even if we'll

get the facts from opposing views from his.

[Cleita]

49. Maybe the human sacrifices of the blood cults appeal to him.

:shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. Conflict makes for a good storyline.

But all his themes seem to rely on "revenge." Let's review some of his movies. in most of them, he starts out as an ordinary, honest person, until someone he loves dies. Then, once the justification has been established, he becomes a rather efficient killing machine.

The Mad Max & the Lethal Weapon movies need no explanation since they follow the revenge theme to perfection. The Christ movie has to do with Jesus having to endure so much pain and suffering, that no human would blame him for having that look of vengeance on his face at the end of the movie. The Signs movie wasn't really his own, so I hate to draw anything out of it, except that he was type-cast well for that one. A missionary who loses his faith once his wife dies, but is angry enough to protect his hearth and home against an alien. "The Patriot." Puh-lease, that's so up his alley. He didn't go ape-shit until they killed his son. I think every white American related to that moment where his inner Dunwich Horror comes out and he becomes as savage a fighter as an American Indian. No holds barred.

Mel Gibson has made a living playing roles of good people, who can be forgiven for going postal.

[Cleita]

52. Maybe that's why he drinks.

Deep down he probably knows that going postal isn't a good excuse for revenge and making money off of making it look justified is eating at him. I sort of like his earlier movies because of the action and I don't take them seriously, nor the moral lesson implied, but maybe some immature minds do.

Also one of our fellow DUers, who used to work in the movie business did some movies with Mel and said he was a pretty nice guy, and treated everyone from the least of the crew to the top very decently including the women. I find it disturbing to discover that he's a bigot and sexist. However, since he was raised in Australia it could explain the sexism, as Aussie men I have known don't view women with very high esteem

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. Well, I think it still needs to be determined that he has a drinking

problem. Certainly going 35MPH over the speed limit has sealed his fate in sentencing, even if this is a one time situation, but I'll wait to hear more before determining if he actually has a continual drinking problem.

[The Backlash Cometh]

55. Wow. You were right. He is an alcoholic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1764982

[burythehatchet]

54. Mel biggest personal projects all deal with brutality

in the extreme. Mad Max, Passion, Lethal Weapon, Braveheart....

He can't get enough blood into a movie.