May I please rant about my own damned rights?

[MiniMandaRuth]

I don't care if my parents don't know if I'm going over the border to get an abortion. It's my own damn body and I can do with it what I please. If I want to tell them, I'll tell them. They don't tell me half the stuff I do, and I don't ask, and I don't care. Sure, they'd like to know, but what about I tell them after I get the idea of having a baby out of my head.

That idea, at any age, if you don't want it, can be frightening.

But even more frightening is that some people think I should go to jail for doing what is right for my body.

Thank you. Goodnight.

[felman87]

1. Ranting always feels good, huh?

sometimes it's just better to get it out. I'm talking about rants, not the baby....FUCK! Now that sounds terrible. Well, do whatever you want and if someone tries to stop you, punch them.

[MiniMandaRuth]

2. Oh, I'm not pregnant. I'm just ranting about the mood

some people have in this damn country. Oh well, I guess they just want some teenage girls shoving coat hangers up their uteruses and killing themselves out in back alleys. :eyes:

Yes, ranting feels good. Welcome to du! :hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

6. No, they just want all the premarital f*cking to stop.

It upsets them.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. I Wish I Could Agree.

But emergency issues aside, I don't really agree that minors should be allowed to get that procedure without some parental notification. If I had a daughter someday I'd damn well want to know, and would think I should have the right to. When she's an adult, then I'd agree it wouldn't be my business whether I'd want it to be or not.

I understand that some people passionately disagree with me. But this is one aspect of the abortion debate I don't mind if it is implemented.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. The government is not in charge of mandating good parent-child

communication.

Nor should it be.

Honestly, OMC- if you want a daughter who is going to share that information with you and consult with you about that kind of thing, raise one.

[Dangerously Amused]

41. "...raise one."

Excellent point!

[MiniMandaRuth]

8. What if the parent doesn't allow it?

I know people that would rather have their daughters suffer and have their lives ruined than have an abortion. I understand your point, but sadly, not all people can be understanding. Thankfully, it sounds like you are an understanding person, but the point is is that not all are.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. That's Quite A Good Point.

I admit to being narrow minded on the issue. I wasn't actually thinking about the implications, that the parents could say no and force the child to raise another child for the rest of their lives. That decision would affect the teen well past when they're an adult, so the consequences would be life long though there were only a few years before the minor could've made their own decision. I was thinking too narrow because mentally I was assuming the parents would let them have the abortion (I certainly would), but should just have the right to be notified that it was occurring. I had failed to think about what may occur if the parents were rigid and forced a teen incapable of raising a child to raise one anyway.

Guess I can understand both sides then. I'd definitely want to be notified, especially to make sure something bad or nonconsentual didn't happen to my daughter, but at the same time I wouldn't want others to have to be forced to raise a child they can't handle.

[hfojvt]

44. being unable to abort a child

does not mean the mother is forced to raise it, and giving birth to a child has not ruined very many lives (not like raising one can).

[The Deacon]

11. If I Might Make An Observation?

I think probably your child would involve you in such a decision. It has been my sad experience that supportive, honest parents need no parental notification laws. The people this will hurt are generally those for whom a parent is not a protection against danger, but the danger itself.

[liontamer]

26. isn't any unwanted pregnancy an emergency issue?

It affects someone's life on a lot of levels, and you only have about 6 weeks to take care of it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. No. Not Even Close.

That's speaking generally, of course.

A poster above, however, did make a case for why a teen shouldn't be forced to take care of an unwanted child for the rest of their lives. As far as generally speaking though, for abortions in general, no: I don't by any stretch of the imagination consider just simply an unwanted pregnancy to be an emergency. An emergency is an emergency, which means risk of imminent physical harm to the mother.

[liontamer]

40. well i guess it's your privilige as a male to not be concerned

speaking as someone who had nightmares about being pregnant (years before I was ever sexually active) an unwanted pregnancy is a very real threat both to my life, and the lives of the children I hope to have.

[Deep13]

82. That's not what he said.

He said it is not an emergency. A medical emergency means someone will die or become maimed without immediate treatment. Of course speaking as a man and therefore a brutish ape incapable of empathy, I can only guess.

[mark414]

46. so yer a dude?

i'm a dude too, and honestly, you and me have no say in this debate. it can't and never will happen to us. let the women do what they need to do.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

85. Bullshit. I Can Speak To The Debate As Much As I Want.

I don't give a rats fat ass if I can't get pregnant or not. I still have brain enough to comprehend an issue and offer opinion on it, and I always find such arguments stating that because I'm a man I have no right to offer an opinion to be patently absurd and ridiculous.

[Divameow77]

81. It porbably depends on the state

and the resources available, but I don't think you can have one until you are 7 weeks pregnant, and you should have one before the 12th week mark, even though some clinics will do it past that time.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. Rant away. You are absolutely right.

It's not any of the GOVERNMENT'S business. It's your body.

Some asshole in South Dakota, blathering about their abortion law, said "we think decision making about abortion should be as local as possible."

Allow me to repeat. As Local As Possible.

WHAT THE FUCK IS MORE "LOCAL" THAN THE WOMAN WHOSE UTERUS IT IS?

[MiniMandaRuth]

9. Amen, dammit.

Speak it!

[JAYJDF]

5. Was at first concerned about replying. Sometimes all that is

needed is to rant. BUT, I agree that it is all your choice. Or at least it should be. It's a shame if there's no support for a woman facing such a decision. How can anyone possibly make that decision for you/anyone else.

[MiniMandaRuth]

10. Thankfully I am not in a situation that requires an abortion

as I'm not even pregnant or dating, but what if something happened to me or one of my friends? Women and girls should be able to make their own damn decisions about their own damn bodies.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. This argument is far from black and white.

I have two daughters, 16, 10. I would ABSOLUTELY want to know if they were going to have an abortion, the same way I would want to know if they needed another medical procedure, which is what an abortion is.

If my 16yo, or 10yo desired an abortion at 18, that is none of my business and I would respect that.

I also recognize that there is a potential for abuse which results in pregnancy and therefore, informing the parent might just be informing the abuser.

I'm lucky. My 16yo tells me just about everything because we have a very trusting relationship. She has friends who have had abortions already, last year, at 15. These 'friends' are engaging in the same types of risk taking behavior, having frequent sex with multiple partners, etc.

I most assuredly wouldn't want my child to go down such a self destructive path. I would want to put a stop to it and get her help if it were to become an issue.

[MiniMandaRuth]

13. I tell my ma about everything, too.

Your sixteen YO and I sound a lot alike.

But what happens when parents don't see it the way we do?

[Midlodemocrat]

15. Except in the cases of abuse, I think parents should be given the

benefit of the doubt. We give parents the benefit of the doubt to get their children vaccinated, feed them, clothe them, educate them. Some people don't do it, but the vast majority do. Look around your own junior high. I would bet that the vast majority have the appropriate clothing, fees are paid, lunches packed, etc. THe neglectful parent is the minority.

That being said, emotional neglect isn't the same thing. Even if a parent isn't the most nurturing caring person in the world, it is still their child. They are still legally, morally and financially responsible for that child and deserve a chance to prove that they can rise to the occasion.

For this issue, and I am staunchly pro-choice, I think we are essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water. No parent wants their 15yo to come home pregnant, or having impregnated someone, but most people accept it and deal with the circumstances.

[readmoreoften]

18. But 40-45% of Americans are also pro-life.

Do these good parents who pack lunches for their kids and clothe them also have the right to force them to give birth?

Also, how will the government "prove" abuse? If you don't like the idea of your daughter having an abortion behind your back, imagine her having an ongoing court case!

[Midlodemocrat]

20. They are pro-life, but let's do a survey of how many of them have

actually had an abortion. I think, from personal anecdotes, that the number would be staggering.

See my other post to you.

BTW, how ya doing tonight? :hi:

[readmoreoften]

21. I'm doing pretty okay, how about you?

Yes, I know that lots of pro-lifers have abortions. Lots of prolifers also take their kids for abortions. (Massive hypocrisy.)

But MANY haven't and would force their child to give birth. I have friends and relatives who had to sneak to have abortions behind their parents backs. My own aunt would not talk to my cousin for years after she had an abortion at 15. She called her a murderer. There is no way she would have signed off for her having an abortion.

Even if you have 50% of pro-lifers allowing their girls to abort, you still have 50% of that 50% who wouldn't.

That means about 25% of American parents would not sign off on their daughters' abortion and that number would translate into hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of girls-- sometimes very young girls-- forced into giving birth because of their parent's beliefs about their bodies.

Teens having sex because they don't respect themselves is very sad. (I had some bad sex as a teenager. In fact, I had horrible sex with boys to try to prove to myself that I wasn't a lesbian. And this was "way" back in the 80s!) But I think that the notion of hundreds of thousands of girls being forced to give birth because of their parents believes is far more frightening. :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

23. You make a valid point. But I think there are far more fundies who

would sign off on the abortion to prevent disgrace to the family. Remember what Dan Quayle said when asked this very question? I think that is what most fundies would do. There would be a boatload of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but in the end, they would quietly visit the doctor, pay cash and resolve the problem.

I have to say, I was astonished at this last election by the women in this community. THis is a pretty small, tight knit area, I think by virtue of the fact that little kids here go to a local elementary school and you get to know everyone. And, then of course, there is that six degrees of separation thing.

I kept telling all these 'pro-lifers' (for everyone but themselves obviously) that they needed to vote for Kerry because he would keep abortion safe, legal and available. Talk about falling on deaf ears.

I would hope my own children would make choices that wouldn't force them to make that decision until they are older. But, if it happens, they get to decide. Not me. I get to have an opinion, maybe I don't get to voice it, but I don't get to decide. They get to decide.

[readmoreoften]

24. And you're a good parent and an intelligent person!

I think it all comes down to how much faith you have in these fundies.

I also think there might be class issues involved as well. I bet middle/upper middles would be more likely to sign off on their child's abortion because the shame of an abortion would compete with the shame of having a daughter that didn't go to college and become a success.

In the lower middle/poor predominately Catholic area where I grew up, those aspirations are seen as "snooty" anyway. There is no shame in not going to college and a lot of these girls have to go into debt and pay their own way through school. These parents will not sign off on their kids' abortions because there really isn't a terrible amount of shame in being a child mother. In fact, I was a stripper for years and there was a high population of girls who went into the business at 18 to support their 2-3 year old kids. They were very very proud of the fact that they didn't have abortions in their teenage years and many of them still lived with their parents. There was quite a bit of tension between the prolifers and the prochoicers when a girl had to call out of work to have an abortion.

[Midlodemocrat]

31. Thank you. That's very kind of you.

Both my husband and I have devoted ourselves to our children. I want them to grow up to be responsible, caring, in touch adults and I think including them in ALL aspects of the world is vital.

In fact, my now 10yo when asked in 3rd grade what qualities a President should have answered (with no prompting from mom, I swear).
"He should be a liberal, because liberals care about the poor and other people who need help".

That is why I get up every day. If I can raise these three to all think like that, this country just might have a shot.

And, I totally agree with you that it is a class thing, more than a red state/blue state, fundie/non fundie thing. I went to a Catholic college and there were several girls who had had abortions. This was immediately after Roe v Wade, and there truly wasn't any shame attached to it at all. Not that there should be, but at the time, it seemed that there was this acceptance of the SCOTUS and its ruling. There wasn't any judgment attached to the situation and IMHO, that is how it should be. It is a personal choice and should remain so. If I decide to have my tubes tied, should I be prevented from doing that because I am (theoretically) killing the existing eggs in my body? That type of thinking is simply insane.

I can only think of one friend who went on to have the baby in college. She was about 2 months from graduation when she found out she was pregnant, but she graduated, married the guy and went on to have this baby and one other before she divorced the guy and got remarried.

I have a REAL fundie neighbor with all kinds of pro-life stickers on her car and her son and his girlfriend got pregnant and they are expecting twins. He is working two jobs and the girlfriend is working one to support these babies when they come. That, to me, is what pro-choice is all about. They CHOSE to have these babies, and if they had chosen otherwise, that choice should be theirs and theirs alone. No one should tell them differently.

[readmoreoften]

17. I understand that you want that, Midlo.

But do you want the government to force a 10 year old victim of incest or a 10 year old child of anti-abortionists (who might force her to give birth at the risk of her own life) in order to make sure that YOUR 10 year old tells you that she is having an abortion: something that she would already do because you've worked hard to have a great relationship with her?

It is a terrible situation, for certain. But how can we protect the most abused women and girls from forced pregnancies at the hands of their own parents if we support this kind of legislation?

[Midlodemocrat]

19. I stated that I felt this way except in cases of abuse.

And, I think a ten year old child of anti-abortionists would be the first one in line to get one rather than have mommy and daddy deal with the shame.

We have to protect the children, but not at the risk of parental rights. I DO have some fundie friends, (ironically, most of them have had abortions, all voted for Bush based on the whole pro-life bullshit, whilst I, who never had an abortion because the situation didn't present itself, voted for Kerry) who have stated, emphatically, that if their daughters were to become sexually active, they would take them downtown to the women's center and procure an abortion.

My 16yo has been raised with a great sense of who she is and has eschewed the dating which leads to sex so far. I am glad. I'm far from a prude, but I honestly think it is far and in between the teenage girl who is able to become sexually involved with a boy and not suffer when he moves on.

Coupled with the HPV issue and cervical cancer, it scares me. I am getting both of my girls the HPV series of shots, but I don't want them to think that it is a license to engage in sex with every guy they meet.

In a previous life, I was a child/adolescent psychotherapist. I stopped when I had kids because the hours didn't suit and at the time, I didn't have to work outside the home. I saw a lot of young girls who felt that the way to popularity was engaging in sex with each guy they went out with and their self esteem was in the toilet.

In a perfect world, I would love for teenagers to wait until they are old enough to give their heart to someone as well as their bodies.

[tigereye]

33. the attitudes of fundies and their hypocrisy about abortion

is what is so amazing to me...

"... I DO have some fundie friends, (ironically, most of them have had abortions, all voted for Bush based on the whole pro-life bullshit, whilst I, who never had an abortion because the situation didn't present itself, voted for Kerry) who have stated, emphatically, that if their daughters were to become sexually active, they would take them downtown to the women's center and procure an abortion."


that these folks vote for Bush on one hand and on the other, expect to take their kids to a clinic if they become pregnant. Talk about cognitive dissonance. I really, really cannot understand this type of thinking, it's just beyond my comprehension.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. The problem with these laws is, it's *precisely* the worst-case scenarios

that they end up impacting.

The healthy families, the ones with good parental relationships and open lines of communication? These issues are moot. It's the families where the kids are terrified of mom -or, more often, dad- for whatever reason... that these laws are aimed at and are going to hit.

And what's the real goal, here? To get kids to talk to their parents (not something I think the government should be particularly involved in) or to scare them out of having sex? (Definitely not something I think the government should be involved in) Look- I'm a parent, too. I think there are good reasons for people to wait until they at least have someone they care about before having sex... but that said, c'mon. I was 16 when I lost my virginity. My wife was about the same age. Most everyone I knew, and grew up with... yeah, all were sexually active before the end of high school. We weren't "damaged", we weren't "defective", we didn't have "esteem issues", and we certainly weren't doing anything "wrong"-- or "immoral", for that matter.

We were teenagers, and teenagers have been having sex since the beginning of time.

[miss_american_pie]

14. Rant away

If my realtionship with my kids is so bad they can't come to me in a crisis, I've failed as their mother. No law will fix that.

[Dangerously Amused]

43. Well said.

:hug:

[idgiehkt]

16. it scares me that we've come to the point that this should have to

be an consideration. Did you mean over the border into another state? Why should anyone have to travel that far. The asshole group from Charlotte that usually protests all the abortion clinics here and that has just about run Charlotte gay pride out of town went down to Mississippi this week to protest the only abortion clinic left in that state, as far as I can understand. (It's Operation Save America). An ex of mine's Mom had a good friend who went to Mexico to have an abortion in the sixties and died from it. It drives me nuts...argggh.

[Lerkfish]

22. actually, it should be illegal for federal govt. to restrict travel based

on differing state laws. That's a state's rights issue. To logically extend that, you would serve jail time for traveling to Las Vegas to gamble, since that activity is not legal in california.
Its absurd for this administration to even bring up this issue, along with making governors turn over their national guard.
Both items are an intentional erosion of state's rights and two more planks towards a unitary executive.

There is no reason, logically or legally, if residency is not a requirement, where something that is illegal in one state can restrict travel to the state where it IS legal. Essentially that's holding people against their will and its frankly kidnapping.

I"m no lawyer, but this is tantamount to restricted interstate travel. Its logistically unenforceable. Someone could just move to the legal state and rent an apartment. They'd be a resident, then, and federal laws would be moot. Therefore, if renting an apartment is all it takes for something to be legal or illegal on a federal level, then the law is beyond meaningless.

and that's not even getting into the furshlurging immorality of trying to control women's wombs.

[readmoreoften]

25. GREAT point and a new take on the issue. /nt

[Nicole]

28. I would want to know if it was my daughter

I wouldn't want her to go through any medical procedure without me there with her. I would want to be there to support her before, during & after such a thing.

Fortunately my daughter & I have a close enough relationship that I don't think she would ever do anything like that without my knowledge. She had no problem asking me to take her for birth control pills. We had a long discussion about her options, and my support, should those fail.

Sadly there are kids who don't have such a relationship with their parents. There is no law that can change that. If the kid wants it bad enough, they will do it.

[thefool_wa]

30. I understand your frustration

But until you are 18 your body belongs to your parents. They aren't aloud to abuse it, but they are legally responsible for its actions.

Did this fact suck when I was a teenager, yes it did. Does that make it untrue or un-necessary, no. When you have children of your own you willunderstand.

Kids don't have rights, they are the domain of their parents. As a parent, I feel that is the way it should be.

[MiniMandaRuth]

32. ....

My body is my own property. No one else's. Not my mothers. Not my fathers. Not my friends. Not my aunts.

If kids don't have rights, why aren't we back in the mines? Why aren't we working again?

I know people who's parents are crazy. A lot of people.

My own body is my own damned business.

[thefool_wa]

50. as maddening as it may seem

that simply is not true.

[MiniMandaRuth]

54. Oh? It's not?

Why not?

[thefool_wa]

63. Because

Legally you (and your body, and what it does) are the responsibility of YOUR PARENTS.

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true and there is nothing you can do about it.

You do have rights, but they are sever ly more limited than those of people who are the age of majority and this is not one of them.

(btw: thanks for the practice, this is going to come in real handy in 9-13 years when my daughter is a teenager and I have to explain these things to her)

[Iniquitous Bunny]

65. Here's a scenario:

Your daughter is 15. She wants to have sex. She has it, used a condom, and asks you to take her to the doctor for a reliable form of birth control in addition. What do you do?

a.) "I'd rather you wait, but I'm proud of you for being responsible. I'll do what I can to help."

b.) Tell her your disappointed in her and hope she doesn't do it again. Possibly ground her or keep her from her boyfriend. No real dialog.

c.) Call her a slut and hope to Jesus she repents. Ashamed she "ruined herself".

What about the many, many young women whose parents would react like option c (or even option b). Do you think those people could be loving or supportive of their daughter if she decides to have an abortion? Do you think those kind of people would be helpful and educational in terms of birth control?

I understand your point, but I am not only the mother of an adolescent daughter, I work in medicine with adolescents (though not directly with sexual health needs, but it does come up many times). Sexual health is a personal issue. Were your parents there holding your hands when you made your initial sexual choices? Mine weren't, but I did have knowledge and was responsible. Not every young girl is so fortunate or empowered.

[thefool_wa]

68. Back the truck up

This conversation is about everything that happens AFTER your scenario. And there are a rainbow of other responses besides your narrow 3 (which, by the way, stink of "you are either for us or against us").

Lets stay on the ball. My teenager has sex and gets pregnant: I want to know and whether or not she has an abortion is my and my wife's decision, not her's. All medical procedures require parental consent, this is no different.

Abortion is not a sex decision, its a life decision. Whether or not to have sex is a personal decision (once you are of the age of consent). Living up to the responsibility lies in the parent's hands until 18, then she can do whatever she wants. These are all things I have personal experience with.

I say again, to any teenager reading, if you do not like this LEGAL FACT, then don't have sex. This is all what falls under "consequences of becoming sexually active" (as taught to me when I was a teenager).

Also, maybe if more parents did "hold their kid's hands" through sexual decision making then there would be more responsible decision making by teenagers.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

76. So, how would you respond?

Besides, the fact of the matter is that the sure way to lead to unplanned pregnancies is to NOT have an open dialog about birth control. My response was not in a vacuum. These issues are fundamentally tied together. You may want your daughter to wait until she's over 18 and may speak of abstinence as being the only safe method (very true and I choose abstinence myself because I didn't want to further risk consequences as a teen for several years shortly after my inital experience), but she may not. Then what?

No, you should not make the choice for your child whether they can reproduce or not. Not when they are 14 or 30. To many of us, this is a fundamental HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE for women, no matter what age. There is a bigger picture here that I don't think you either can see or want to see. And no, when your daughter is 17 and making out alone with her boyfriend, you won't be there to hold her hand. You need to arm her with information about her body and emotional consequences, but to think arbitrary rules lead to dialog and responsible choices, you're sadly mistaken.

[thefool_wa]

87. Constant open dialog

and promotion of abstinence. Absent of that, getting her the pill is the best choice one can make. Kids having kids is not the most ideal situation there could be.

Then I would forbid her from seeing the guy and lock her in her room until she was at least the age of consent (16 in my state) and she would go nowhere without my supervision for more years than that. 15yo kids should not be having sex and it would happen again over my dead body. I would probably also pursue charges against her boyfriend if at all possible, anyone having sex with a 15 year old is Stat Rape in my state. It is harsh and draconian, but this is no simple subject and it requires decisive action.

This is probably not the way you would respond, and I hope it doesn't come to this. The best way to prevent it is to be open, honest, and educate for the 15 years leading up to that moment in hopes of avoiding it. However, part of that education is making sure she knows exactly what will happen if it comes to this.

Now, on another of your points, I totally disagree that the question of birth control and the question of abortion are the same thing. ABORTION IS NOT BIRTH CONTROL! And i would NEVER let my underage child have an abortion. Even if she was an adult, I would strongly reccommend against it and hope that I brought her up better than to choose destroying a child as the way to avoid the responsiblitiy of choosing to have sex. If she still chose to (as an adult) at that point it is between her and God.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

95. Lack of being responsible about birth control

leads to unwanted pregnancy. I never said they were the same thing. My view of abortion is it should be legal, safe, and RARE. I do believe in choice. Unlike you, I have had an unwanted pregnancy (not all birth control is 100%). I was in a loving relationship with a man already committed to me and I had my child. It would pain me to have an abortion and thankfully, I've never had to be in a situation where I felt no alternative, but I support this right of other women to decide that for themselves.

As for locking up your kids, good luck with that one. All we can do is our best and I hope you and your children are not faced with this for a long time as it seems like it would a pretty lousy situation for all involved.

You have an obvious bias to thinking a woman has that right to begin with which is pretty darned disappointing (to say the least) coming not only on a progressive site, but from a man who'll never have to worry about it yourself.

[thefool_wa]

98. Like I said I hope it never comes to that

And I am speaking through the lens of animated and frustrating conversation. I probably won't take any of the actions I described, and I have many years to think about it and educate my kids as to the right path. Hopefully they will listen and follow it.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement, please clarify? I don't think that Abortion should be illegal (legal, safe, and rare, amen) - but I am tired of the argument that the decision is the woman's alone. It takes two to make a baby.

However, when we are talking about underage kids having kids, the involvement of their parents is essential and should be mandated concerning abortion. They have found 3 babies in bags in the Seattle area in as many months, all left by teenage mothers who thought they could handle it themselves. It's sad. There are other ways. Abortion may not be mine, but the only way to insure the welfare of everyone involved is to involve an adult.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

110. Clarification.

It appeared to me from your other statements that you are anti-choice. If not, I apologize. It actually sounds as though your view of it is similar to mine- it's something serious, not to be taken lightly, but ideally rare and legal.

I understand your point of view as a parent. I really do. I just have known personally and professionally too many young girls who aren't in situations where they can actually talk to their parents. Not to mention the # of teens who are raped. Unfortunately, 1 in 6 women go through rapes or attempted rapes in their lives (44% under 18). http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html There is just so much at stake for women when too much legislation is made on this issue. Ideally, every young woman has parents who educate her and can provide support. Ideally, every young women has created that life through consensual sex with a loving, supportive partner. Sadly, many do not. (Anecdotally, every female friend I have known who has had an abortion, the man was un supportive of the pregnancy and pretty much bailed on her.) For that reason, I cannot support mandating reporting for minors seeking abortion.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

77. Delete

dupe

[skygazer]

109. Much of what you're saying here makes sense

And though I do not approve of parental notification laws as written, I agree with much of what you're saying, to wit that a parent is responsible for their child.

But I vehemently disagree with this statement - "whether or not she has an abortion is my and my wife's decision, not her's."

You may have to provide consent, but the decision should be hers. A child of 5 is unable to understand why they should or should not have a medical procedure - a child of 15 is. And to be forced to either carry a child when she doesn't want to or have an abortion when she doesn't want to is simply not right.

I'll put my cards right on the table with this. I raised my children to talk to me, to feel they could be honest with me. They were. When my daughter became sexually active, she told me. Did I like it? Hell, no!! And I told her so, and we talked damned seriously about the consequences of her being sexually active. I also put her on the pill. She got pregnant - probably forgot to take the darn things because she was a teenager.

You can only control so much. I could have locked her up in the house but that's not a real world option.

She chose to have the child and give her up for adoption. I NEVER would have made this decision for her, not in a million years. And if I had been the one to make the decision, that probably wouldn't have been the one I made. While I discussed the options with her, and pointed out various truths about all of them, the decision in the end was hers to make. It had to be. How in the hell could I have said, "No, you're getting an abortion because your father and I think that's the right thing to do"?

My granddaughter is almost 8 years old. She has two wonderful adoptive parents with whom I keep in contact. My daughter just married this past June. I would say she made a pretty responsible decision admittedly after making an irresponsible one. And she is able to live with it very well, which I doubt would be the case had she been forced into something she didn't really want.

[MiniMandaRuth]

66. I have rights,

and that's what makes me an American.

I have rights and I know them. My body is my right.

[thefool_wa]

69. Unfortunately you are wrong

It is not, not until you are 18. This is not one of your rights.

[MiniMandaRuth]

70. Then dammit, if I can't decide about my own body,

why do I even have periods or go through growing pains? If my parents have to decide that for me, then why am I not working back in the salt mines?! Why aren't all teenagers?! If I as a woman can't even make a decision about myself, then why the hell am I here?

Your logic astounds me. On one hand, society expects us to learn to drive, get good grades, work... But on the other, people like you don't even think we are mature enough to decide what we can or cannot do with our own bodies.

[Midlodemocrat]

72. Because you're not.

You aren't mature enough. You are still a kid. My 16yo would tell you she isn't mature enough to make a decision like that.

I taught high school for 10 years. I have a 14yo boy and a 16yo girl and we have an 18yo friend of my daughter's living with us.

None of them is mature. Not at all. They are all still kids making kid decisions which either work out or they don't.

You really don't get to be in charge, (in the global sense, not you) until you are out on your own. My kids won't be able to sustain this lifestyle right out of school and it will be an amazingly rude awakening. Just like it was for me.

[MiniMandaRuth]

74. But if I'm not mature enough to make that decision

then what makes someone else my age mature enough to have a baby?

[Midlodemocrat]

75. They're not mature enough. They just happen to have the

correct body parts to do the job.

I don't personally believe that any young teenager is ready for the commitemnt of a sexual relationship. After I stopped teaching, I started practicing as a therapist for children and adolescents and it was one of the things that I focused on in my self esteem groups.

[MiniMandaRuth]

78. Sadly, some people don't believe that.

I know people that are sexually active... There are always mistakes.

[thefool_wa]

88. Thank You n/t

[thefool_wa]

73. You are not a woman

You are a girl! And the decision is yours (and should be yours alone) once you reach the age of majority.

Again, you only don't understand because you want to be an adult so bad. I do not believe this is a decision a child can make on their own an you will never convince me otherwise.

Again, I say (in all honesty) that this may be something you want to discuss with your parents, not some stranger on the internet. They are the ones who are responsible and they are the ones who teach you about right and wrong and values and all of that. I have very strong opinions about abortion, and it is like no other decision in this world (especially not driving or studying). It is not something a child should undertake alone.

[MiniMandaRuth]

79. I don't want to be an adult,

I simply want control of my own body.

And on edit: You're not a woman either.

[thefool_wa]

89. You will get it

When you are 18.

And you are right, I am not a woman, but it takes more than just a woman to make a baby. In fact, none of your arguments have given any regard to the father of the child you so gleefully want to destroy. Does HE not get a say! Too many women forget that you can't just magically become pregnant and think that the child they cary is only theirs. Its infuriating to me AS A MAN!

I think you should give this matter much more very careful consideration before you take on the responsibility of having sex. If you want all of the pleasure and none of the responsibility, not even your parents can stop you. I just hope you are ready for the consequences, and don't kid yourself, they are high.

[MiniMandaRuth]

97. Who ever said I would gleefully destroy a baby?

No, the father does not get a say. He can argue, he can cry, but in the end, it is my choice.

But gleefully destroying a baby. I would not do it with glee. You make me sound like a murderer.

[thefool_wa]

99. Wow

With that attitude, it will be real hard to find a father for your children.

And you are obviously not mature enough for the responsiblity these choices entail.

I don't think I have anything more to say to you.

[MiniMandaRuth]

102. This is the last that I have to say to you.

I will find someone who loves me and who respects my choice. It could be a man or a woman, I'm not sure yet, but someone out there is for me. Someone out there respects my choice and they way I think. Just as you have found someone that loves you and respects you.

[thefool_wa]

104. I take back part of what I said

As it was said in frustration. I'm sure you will find someone and it was unfair of me to say it.


But please remember, when that person comes along, that they helped you make the child and the child is there's as well. They do have a say, and it is part of the responsibility of sex to give their voice deep consideration and be willing to face the consequences of going against what they want, either way, should you decide that is what you have to do.

I hope you have a good life.

[MiniMandaRuth]

106. Peace brother,

and may you have a long, good life.

[thefool_wa]

52. One more thing...

I case you mised it later in this thread:

I did not say property, and I did so intentionally. Kids are not the property of their parents but are, in fact, their responsibility.

This applies not only to their care, but a legal responsibility for their actions (including sex). I know from experience, my brother was a criminal from the age of about 12 and my parents paid for it (monetarily and legally) throughout his adolescence.

This makes kids the domain of their parents. And as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to abortion, the parents involvement is a necessity.

You don't want to have to worry about it? Don't have sex as a teenager!

[MiniMandaRuth]

55. If a body 'belongs' to someone,

But until you are 18 your body belongs to your parents. as you said in your post, then it is property. I own a cat. It is my property. I own my books. They are my property.

Don't have sex as a teenager? Yeah, I know that. But does my best friend and her boyfriend? My neighbors? My cousins?

[thefool_wa]

64. I clarified that statement

It was not meant to imply you are property, merely that you are not the one who answers, ultimately, for your actions while you are under the age of 18.

As to the rest: the only person you need to concern yourself with is yourself. You cannot control, nor should you try to control those around you. Your entire rant has been about how it affects you, let your friends and cousins figure it out for themselves.

And, if they don't know that not having sex is the best way to avoid pregnancy, maybe you should tell them.

[MiniMandaRuth]

67. If I can't make desicions about myself,

then I am property! If my parents have to make every decision for me, than I am no more than an automated drone who turns into a living, breathing creature at the age of 18! And I say every decision because if what you say was true, then my parents decide when I eat, when I breathe, when I go to the bathroom, etc.

And if the only person I should be concerned with is myself, then the only person my parents should be concerned with is them!

[thefool_wa]

71. Abortion is not the same as any of those things

You are a CHILD, and you are the RESPONSIBILITY OF YOUR PARENTS!

The only reason you do not understand this is because it is true. The world is not as black and white as you think it is and everything adults get children do not get.

You can stomp and yell and complain all you want, but this particular decision is not yours to make, deal with it.

(maybe you should have this conversation with your parents - I assure you they will agree with me)

Also, what I said is you need only concern yourself with yourself. I did not say everybody should concern themselves with themselves. I am obviously concerned about you, but only because I sense in you a passion to find the right answer. It is there, you just don't have it yet.

[MiniMandaRuth]

80. Actually, I have already had this conversation with my parents

And they agree with me.

And I have just checked your profile. If you're a guy, why the hell are you arguing about women's bodies?

On edit: Forgot a word.

[thefool_wa]

91. Women don't make babies by themselves

I am a parent of a girl, which means as a procreator and a parent I have a stake in this. NEVER DISCOUNT THE FATHER'S ROLE IN DECIDING ON ABORTION! It makes you selfish and undeserving of a child.

At this point I think we have both said about all that we can say in a productive conversation. Do whatever you wish with your body, I can't force you to do anything and it is readily apparent you are unwilling to listen to anyone who thinks that abortion may not ever be the right choice when the child is produced my consentual sex.

My only concern is that you were posessed of all the information before you shirk the ulitmate responsiblitiy of choosing to have sex. Wether or not you do so is up to you, not me.

If your parents feel you should be able to have an abortion without their consent, then how I feel about it is immaterial.

[GirlinContempt]

92. Wait, not consulting the father makes you selfish and undeserving of a

child, so, have the baby and don't have an abortion?


Huh?

[thefool_wa]

100. Yes! Absoultely! - No questions about it!

It takes two to make a baby. The father has a say too, period.

(caviat: I am talking about pregnancy from consensual sex)

[GirlinContempt]

107. No, what I don't get

is that you're saying if a woman wouldn't consult the father of the baby, she shouldn't have a baby. So... she should get rid of it?

[MiniMandaRuth]

96. Okay. Give the father a uterus and he can have the baby.

[thefool_wa]

101. If it were possible

I'd have done it for at least one of my two kids.

It is not JUST YOUR BABY!

[MiniMandaRuth]

103. But it's my body.

[thefool_wa]

105. It's still not just your child.

[Solon]

86. You are wrong, legally speaking...

A child's body IS technically the property of that CHILD, responsibilty is delegated to the parent's UNLESS they make a decision that is detrimental to that child's health. For example, if a parent tried to force their child to carry out a pregnancy, which can, depending on age and development, can be much more detrimental to their health than having an abortion.

[thefool_wa]

93. There are no laws in that regard

at least when it comes to compulsory abortion.

And when it comes to medical procedures, legally speaking, the parents consent is always necessary where I live, regardless of the procedure.

[Solon]

108. Not if medically neccessary for the child to live...

There are plenty of parents right now that are in prison because of that very reason.

[GirlinContempt]

90. "merely that you are not the one who answers, ultimately, for your actions

while you are under the age of 18."

Untrue. In fact, I think the #1 person ultimately answering for teen pregnancy is the pregnant teen. No matter what decision they make about the child.

[thefool_wa]

94. Good point

frustration led me to hyperbole.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Actually, it doesn't matter if you're an adult. Your body belongs to the

Government.

Really, it's a direct outgrowth of thousands of years of western religion telling people their bodies belong to "God". Or, his direct proxy, the King, which is now the State.

For example, you can't put various chemicals in your own body, your own bloodstream, your own nervous system, because the government doesn't want you using "its" property in such a way.

Philosophically, I call bullshit on that whole line of reasoning. But it's similar church-ordained concepts of what constitutes proper familial power stucture (God--->Dad--->Mom--->Kids) which bring us this notion that kids "belong" to their parents. They don't. And they DO have rights. Maybe not total rights, or equivalent rights to adults, but that's not the same thing as being the "property" of their parents.

If people feel such an overriding need to control what their kids do with their reproductive systems, they should raise them in such a way that their kids feel comfortable communicating with them-- not depend on a nanny-state run by Christofascists to run their kids' lives for them.

And hey, guess what-- just like you, I too am a parent.

[thefool_wa]

51. I actually did not say property

And I did so intentionally. Kids are not the property of their parents but are, in fact, their responsibility.

This applies not only to their care, but a legal responsibility for their actions (including sex). I know from experience, my brother was a criminal from the age of about 12 and my parents paid for it (monetarily and legally) throughout his adolescence.

This makes kids the domain of their parents. And as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to abortion, the parents involvement is a necessity.

You don't want to have to worry about it? Don't have sex as a teenager!

[Warren DeMontague]

112. "don't have sex as a teenager".

So you think it should be against the law? Sex between teenagers, that is?

Wow. Jesus. Good fuckin' luck with THAT crusade.

I lost my virginity at age 16. I was many things back in those days, but a criminal I most certainly was not.

[Haole Girl]

35. Even though I am older, I believe a teenager should have

the right to seek an abortion, if they chose, without parental consent. It might be because I never had children of my own, or because I remember all too well what it was like to be a teenager...I don't know.

More so, though...what I really wish would happen, is more Sex Education and more access, for teenagers especially, to available and affordable birth control.

[MiniMandaRuth]

36. Thank you!

You know how you get student discounts on movies? Maybe they should have something like that for condoms... I dunno.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

38. I would hope that any daughter of mine would tell me

if she needed an abortion...because I'd want to be there to give her the support she'd need. At the same time, if, for whatever reason, she didn't feel comfortable telling me, I wouldn't want her to have to give birth to a child she didn't want.

I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose. As a parent, it's my responsibility to help my children make choices for themselves.
If and when they find that they could have made a better decision, it's my responsibility to help them live with the choice they made.

My kids are both boys, but I feel the same way about them.

[MiniMandaRuth]

56. Thank you.

:hug: With boys it's a little different... but I'm sure that if they trust you, and if it ever happens, they'd tell you that their girlfriends might need abortions.

[NMMNG]

39. rAmen MMR!

My roomie was just ranting about the notification laws yesterday (she's against the idea that teens don't have to notify their parents if they get an abortion). Some people apparently think it's better for teens to be subject to verbal and/or physical abuse or even being thrown on the streets by their parents than getting an abortion without their parents' knowledge. :eyes:

[MiniMandaRuth]

57. I know people who would hit their daughters

and punish them that way, then make them have the baby. Sick, isn't it?

[NMMNG]

111. Utterly appaling

Let's throw the Wrath of God at them, possibly beat them, make them bear the child and give it up for adoption, and continue to shame and punish them for the rest of the time they live in their parents' household. That's so much better than letting them get an abortion w/o their parents' consent. :eyes:

[Floogeldy]

42. Yes, you may rant.

But your rant is mostly meaningless since you are not pregnant and are not going across the border to have an abortion.

:smoke:

[MiniMandaRuth]

58. Eh. Who knows?

Might have to, someday. But I've haven't even had my first kiss yet so that's a LOOOOOONG way off.

[wickerwoman]

45. Maturity isn't an on/off switch that flips on your 18th birthday.

It's a spectrum from childhood to adulthood and there are certain experiences along the way that move you towards maturity. And in my opinion, getting pregnant makes you an adult. If you're old enough to get pregnant, you're old enough to choose what to do about it for yourself. After all, it's the girl (not her parents) who is going to have to live with the physical, emotional and financial consequences for the rest of her life.

This is usually framed as the girl wanting to have an abortion and the parents vetoing it, but let's re-frame for a second. Let's say the girl wants to keep the baby and the parents want her to have an abortion. Do the parents (who, ostensibly "own" her body) have the right to drag her to an abortion clinic, strap her down, and remove the fetus against her will? What would be the psychological ramifications of a forced abortion on a 13 or 14 year old girl? It's pretty obvious that in this area at least, parents don't "own" the bodies of their teenage daughters.

Likewise, nobody has the right to force a female of childbearing age to risk her life carrying a pregnancy to term. And since parents don't (and can't) have the final say in whether their offspring reproduce, what's the point in notifying them? What will this law accomplish besides forcing girls to seek back-alley abortions? Does anybody actually think there's a pregnant girl out there whose afraid to tell her parents and would choose telling them over sneaking around and getting a dangerous back-alley abortion? I sure don't.

[MiniMandaRuth]

59. A new point.

And a good one.

Who knows what might happen if some girl was forced into an abortion? It might be as traumatic and life-ending as if another was forced out...

[wildhorses]

47. k&r

:kick:

[NightNurse]

48. As A Labor & Delivery Nursing Supervisor for 18 years...

Your post saddens and shocks me.

Sex education is 75% of the Game, Ruth.

Good night and good luck,indeed.


Sorry...thought your status was "pregnant"...since it's not, and this is a rant-rant, I'd rather have my husband, the Poli Sci Prof, comment on it's efficacy.

[MiniMandaRuth]

60. Nope. Not preggers.

Don't even have a boyfriend. (Some where inside, someone is crying. Oh yeah. That's my libido.)

Thanks for your concern.

[Deep13]

49. Fuckin' Ay, Bubba.

'Nuff said.

[MiniMandaRuth]

61. 'Nuff said.

Thanks.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

53. I have a daughter you age and I agree with you.

My daughter is 14. She's not sexually active, but is a smart, attractive girl with a healthy dose of self-esteem who has had boyfriends. I became sexually active for the first time when I wasn't much older than she was. I was sexually responsible because I was informed. I wasn't promiscuous. I believe sexually activity correlates with a need for a lot of maturity, but I don't view sex as something "evil". She's informed on the physiology and emotional implications and when she makes a decision to become sexually active (whether she's 15 or whether she's 25), I know she has the tools she needs to be responsible and make choices from the vantage point of self respect.

The thing is that most parents aren't like me. She tells me this. I also am enough of a realist to know no one is there when their kids make this decision. My parents weren't. No one's were. Like it or not, it's her body and ultimately, her choice. Because of that, she had better be equipped with the knowledge to make responsible decisions before it happens.

If she had an unplanned pregnancy, I have little doubt that she'd talk to me, but even with a mom like me, I know it would be as hard as Hell should something like that happen. I can't imagine what it would be like for a young woman who was abused or a young woman whose parents viewed her as a terrible person because of this. What kind of decisions would a still dependent person make when faced with the people they depended on would judge them so harshly?

Furthermore, I could only have a very, very small amount of support for such legislation, if, and only if, all teens were provided free, easy, and confidential access to contraceptives. Will they be? No, because the same people who make such laws are the same people who want to stick their hands in the sand, yell "Jesus", and live in some deluded world that their children will remain virgins. They aren't comfortable with their own bodies and sexuality and continue to project this crap onto their children.

[MiniMandaRuth]

62. And it always makes me wonder...

The people in that last paragraph always blame the girls, who obviously get pregnant on their own. :eyes:

Thank you for the post. :) If your daughter feels anything like I do about sex, she'll just wait until she's ready.

[Deep13]

83. Allz I know is if I had a teenage daughter in that situation, ...

... I'd drive her to the abortion clinic myself, pay the bill and be glad it is still legal on the way home.

[MiniMandaRuth]

84. Good on you.

My parents would do the same. I'm just worried for those who aren't as lucky.

[blacksmith]

113. Nobody's business except the woman's.. But

Any medical procedure other than real emergency treatment on a minor should require parental consent. and in my opinion that should include piercings and tatooing.
boy am I in trouble around here now!